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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2010Historical
Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across a recent paper which used the second. The author is from the US so I wondered if it was a more prevalent usage in Leftpondia. Any thoughts?  SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) LFS escribió: > Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical > perspective"? Does historical start with a vowel or a vowel sound? SignaturePablo >LFS escribió: > >> Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >> perspective"? > >Does historical start with a vowel or a vowel sound? For some people it starts with a sort of degenerate "h" sound which makes, for them, "an historical" easy to say. Ditto "an hotel". This is, I believe, a form of BrE posh-speak that is probably influenced by French pronunciation, it is a mid-channel hybrid. This is to be distinguished from the loose-speak "an 'otel" which some would classify as 'ighly hilliterate. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>LFS escribió: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > This is to be distinguished from the loose-speak "an 'otel" which some > would classify as 'ighly hilliterate. "The hauspicious hoccasion of the hopening of this 'ere 'ospital". That sort of thing! SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk >Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >perspective"? The latter bugs the hell out of me. But I think we determined that it was very widespread, and some people claimed to follow a rule that ignored initial 'h' when determining which form to use. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 Garrett Wollman filted: >>Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >>perspective"? > >The latter bugs the hell out of me. But I think we determined that it >was very widespread, and some people claimed to follow a rule that >ignored initial 'h' when determining which form to use. That's a misstatement of the "other" rule, which says that "an" is used before a word with initial "h" with an unstressed first syllable....r Signature"Oy! A cat made of lead cannot fly." - Mark Brader declaims a basic scientific principle R wrote on 23 May 2010 09:56:22 -0700: > Garrett Wollman filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> claimed to follow a rule that ignored initial 'h' when >> determining which form to use. > That's a misstatement of the "other" rule, which says that > "an" is used before a word with initial "h" with an unstressed > first syllable....r I feel it does depend on how you pronounce words beginning with "h". I almost invariably pronounce the "h" and say and write "a hotel" etc. Despite some Eastern arbiters of pronunciation and Julia Child, I pronounce "herb" as <hVb>. (I think I have the vowel correct.) I have to admit that I am inconsistent and sometimes find it easier to say /eI/ not /&/ (long and not short a) before "hotel" etc. SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not > I feel it does depend on how you pronounce words beginning with "h". I > almost invariably pronounce the "h" and say and write "a hotel" > etc. Despite some Eastern arbiters of pronunciation and Julia Child, I > pronounce "herb" as <hVb>. (I think I have the vowel correct.) You know, I've never wondered about how the "erb" sayers pronounce the name (or nickname) "Herb". To me - a native UK speaker they are the same and - with a similar caution on vowels - the same as I think yours is. Anyone want to enlighten us? Are they still the same, or are they different? If different, I quite like the idea of distinguishing Herb Robert from Herb Roberts. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk > > I feel it does depend on how you pronounce words beginning with "h". I > > almost invariably pronounce the "h" and say and write "a hotel" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is. Anyone want to enlighten us? Are they still the same, or are they > different? It varies within the US, but for me it is "erb" for the cooking ingredient and "Herb" for "Herbert." > If different, I quite like the idea of distinguishing Herb Robert from > Herb Roberts. I never saw any "Herb Robert" until I moved to the Netherlands. I'm sure it didn't exist in the New England, where I lived before that and where I started to learn wildflower names. I've still never *heard* the name, really, as I got it out of a British wildflower guide. For some reason I find myself saying it with an H, "Herb Robert," although that's not consistent with my "'erbs and spices." I see that Herb Robert has become an aggressive invader in the Pacific Northwest, so maybe someone can tell us how Americans there pronounce it (deleting expletives). SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux An American living in the Netherlands > You know, I've never wondered about how the "erb" sayers pronounce the > name (or nickname) "Herb". However Herb *says* it's pronounced. Joy Beeson, cultivating 'erbs. (Planted ginger mint and golden thyme yesterday.) Signaturejoy beeson at comcast dot net http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/ The above message is a Usenet post. I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site. > Joy Beeson, cultivating 'erbs. (Planted ginger mint and golden thyme > yesterday.) I planted herbs instead: parsley, thyme and marjoram. Whether they have an H or not, the caterpillars and snails will still find them. SignatureRob Bannister >> Joy Beeson, cultivating 'erbs. (Planted ginger mint and golden thyme >> yesterday.) > > I planted herbs instead: parsley, thyme and marjoram. Whether they have > an H or not, the caterpillars and snails will still find them. I'm a little surprised by that. In my experience, thyme makes a good pest repellent in the garden. You have to wait for it to be mature enough to be putting out a good odour, of course. I'm less surprised that the parsley gets eaten. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Tinseled tooti-frooti with distressing a.s blaster, tiny balls, and tight bomb bay wants to meet gangrenous mudeye for intensified noodle nurturing. Contact me privately at mailto:gro.nalyomp@retep. > Tinseled tooti-frooti with distressing a.s blaster, tiny balls, and > tight bomb bay wants to meet gangrenous mudeye for intensified noodle > nurturing. Contact me privately at mailto:gro.nalyomp@retep. That's the first time that has happened to me. I don't have tiny balls, or a tight bomb bay, and I'm not really into a.s blasting. Can anyone explain what is happening here? The best explanation that occurs to me is that this an attack by the same person who outed the e-mail address, previously de-spammed, of another AUE regular. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. > > Tinseled tooti-frooti with distressing a.s blaster, tiny balls, and > > tight bomb bay wants to meet gangrenous mudeye for intensified noodle [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > occurs to me is that this an attack by the same person who outed the > e-mail address, previously de-spammed, of another AUE regular. It's just a stupid script kiddie. I don't think it's got anything to do with your e-mail address as such - which is part neither of the headers nor of the body of the offending message. It's of course trivial to set the "From:" header to anything you like and make a message superficially appear to have been sent by any arbitrary person. > > > Tinseled tooti-frooti with distressing a.s blaster, tiny balls, and > > > tight bomb bay wants to meet gangrenous mudeye for intensified noodle [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > the "From:" header to anything you like and make a message superficially > appear to have been sent by any arbitrary person. Just tried to bring my point across... Tom > Tinseled tooti-frooti with distressing a.s blaster, tiny balls, and > tight bomb bay wants to meet gangrenous mudeye for intensified > noodle nurturing. Contact me privately at mailto:gro.nalyomp@retep. Middle school must be on vacation. >>> Joy Beeson, cultivating 'erbs. (Planted ginger mint and golden thyme >>> yesterday.) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I'm less surprised that the parsley gets eaten. It was the young marjoram that got attacked this time, but I have had thyme eaten before - can't remember whether it was caterpillar or a snail or something else. I don't know why I bother planting things in my garden for bugs to eat. The marjoram wasn't even in the garden proper, but in a pot on the barbecue - a butterfly must have been just waiting for me. SignatureRob Bannister > I feel it does depend on how you pronounce words beginning with "h". I > almost invariably pronounce the "h" and say and write "a hotel" etc. > Despite some Eastern arbiters of pronunciation and Julia Child, I > pronounce "herb" as <hVb>. (I think I have the vowel correct.) That vowel should be [V":]. Otherwise, you're pronouncing "herb" like "hub". (I assume that the people who say "erb" don't also say "ub". Actually, it's not clear whether "hub" has a French origin.) SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. Peter wrote on Sun, 30 May 2010 01:29:04 +1000: >> I feel it does depend on how you pronounce words beginning >> with "h". I almost invariably pronounce the "h" and say and >> write "a hotel" etc. Despite some Eastern arbiters of >> pronunciation and Julia Child, I pronounce "herb" as <hVb>. >> (I think I have the vowel correct.) > That vowel should be [V":]. Otherwise, you're pronouncing > "herb" like "hub". > (I assume that the people who say "erb" don't also say "ub". > Actually, it's not clear whether "hub" has a French origin.) Thanks for the correction. I had some difficulty sorting out the pronunciation in the table; <hV"b> it is. SAMPA uses /3/ for that vowel doesn't it? SignatureJames Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not >Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across a >recent paper which used the second. The author is from the US so I >wondered if it was a more prevalent usage in Leftpondia. Any thoughts? Use the former if you don't drop the h in historical, and the latter if you do. But our house style was the former. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical perspective"? > I was quite happy with the first until I came across a recent paper which > used the second. The author is from the US so I wondered if it was a more > prevalent usage in Leftpondia. Any thoughts? There's a paper in the September 2009 edition of 'Weather' which carries the title "Traditional Weather Observing in the UK: An Historical Overview", so you'll be in a good company if you choose that avenue. I remember humming and hawing for a short while over which to go for, but I said each out loud a few times, and then simply chose the one which sounded most natural (to me). Philip >> Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >> perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > but I said each out loud a few times, and then simply chose the one > which sounded most natural (to me). I once did a translation for an American publisher. The English title of the work was the last thing to be chosen, in consultation between the author and the editor. The editor's suggestion included the words "an historical", but I was allowed to decide whether I would prefer "a historical", so that's what it became. SignatureJames > Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical > perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across a > recent paper which used the second. The author is from the US so I > wondered if it was a more prevalent usage in Leftpondia. Any thoughts? Whichever is natural to you. A lot of Americans who say "an historical" think they're imitating Brits, I believe, and it would be ridiculous for you to adopt a spelling that imitates them. (I wouldn't tell Americans to write and say whichever one is natural to them; I'd strongly suggest "a".) -- Jerry Friedman >> Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >> perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Brits, I believe, and it would be ridiculous for you to adopt a >spelling that imitates them. C'm on, Jerry, you've no way of substantiating this. >(I wouldn't tell Americans to write and say whichever one is natural >to them; I'd strongly suggest "a".) To be honest, I have no recollection of hearing an American say "an historical." I suspect that any who say it do it out ignorance of the RULE of how thee should speak when encountering a vowel or consonant sound. I agree with use whatever is natural when your mind's ear hears "historical." > To be honest, I have no recollection of hearing an American say "an > historical." Maybe not, but it's out there. The first of over 100,000 hits for "an historical" plus Iowa: Legal and political status of women in Iowa: an historical account Iowa Agriculture: An Historical Survey (Iowa City) An historical address delivered in St. John's Church, Dubuque An historical marker located at the site of the first settlers of Worth County, Iowa The Constitution of the state of Iowa: with an historical introduction Iowa apple production reached an historical peak "The University of Iowa Museum of Natural History: an Historical Perspective" >I suspect that any who say it do it out ignorance of the > RULE of how thee should speak when encountering a vowel or consonant > sound. Not at all. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >> perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across a >> recent paper which used the second. The author is from the US so I >> wondered if it was a more prevalent usage in Leftpondia. Any thoughts? > > Whichever is natural to you. My feeling too. Write it the way you say it. I say "an historical" but "a hotel", because my hotel has a secondary stress on the first syllable. That suggests that my "h" is right on the borderline, in terms of strength of aspiration, for the a/an decision. I'm aware that many people aspirate the beginning of "historical" more strongly than I do, and for them I would suggest that "a historical" is the right way to say and write it. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>> Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >>> perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > strongly than I do, and for them I would suggest that "a historical" is > the right way to say and write it. Thanks to all who have responded. I shall stick with my instinct and see if the editors at Oxford University Press have anything to say about it. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > Thanks to all who have responded. I shall stick with my instinct and see > if the editors at Oxford University Press have anything to say about it. Please do let us know if they do. SignatureSML >> Thanks to all who have responded. I shall stick with my instinct and see >> if the editors at Oxford University Press have anything to say about it. > > Please do let us know if they do. I certainly shall! SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >> perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across >> a recent paper which used the second. The author is from the US so >> I wondered if it was a more prevalent usage in Leftpondia. Any >> thoughts? Would you say "thur historical perspective" or "thee historical perspective"? > Whichever is natural to you. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (I wouldn't tell Americans to write and say whichever one is natural > to them; I'd strongly suggest "a".) Interesting that the form with alpha-privative is "ahistoric(al)", instead of "anhistoric", or even "anistoric", since that prefix retained its "n" in Greek before the rough breathing (anhydrous, anaemic). Maybe to prevent confusion with the second form? (I assume the standard pronunciation of "ahistorical" begins with / e/, and so is not confused with the first.) >>> Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >>> perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Would you say "thur historical perspective" or "thee historical > perspective"? I realise you weren't asking me, but I would use both of the above, though not at the same time. I do the same before vowels too, as do most people I know. I suppose there is a preference for "thee" before vowel sounds, but not enough to claim it as a rule. SignatureRob Bannister >>>> Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >>>> perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > most people I know. I suppose there is a preference for "thee" > before vowel sounds, but not enough to claim it as a rule. That seems to be more common among the yoot, in Ottawa. Maybe Australia, or your part of it, was ahead of the curve. >>>> Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >>>> perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > people I know. I suppose there is a preference for "thee" before vowel > sounds, but not enough to claim it as a rule. For me it's definitely a rule. The two pronunciations of "the" follow the same pattern as the a/an distinction. To say "thuh" before a vowel I'd have to insert a glottal stop, and I don't do glo'al stops unless I'm trying to imitate a foreign dialect. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. >>>>> Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >>>>> perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'd have to insert a glottal stop, and I don't do glo'al stops unless > I'm trying to imitate a foreign dialect. You don't need to go glottal. A sort of glide will do. That's how I think of those olde English texts where they have "th'arrow" - no doubt, the writer actually meant it to be said as one word "tharrow", but I think of it as I might say it where I dwell slightly longer on "thuh". SignatureRob Bannister > >> Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical > >> perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > the standard pronunciation of "ahistorical" begins with / e/, and so > is not confused with the first.) Speaking of confusion, I've long wondered: are words such as "an(a)emia" formed classically and words with an "h" after the "n", such as "anhydrous" and "anhedonic", formed un-classically? -- Jerry Friedman >>>> Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical >>>> perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > "an(a)emia" formed classically and words with an "h" after the "n", > such as "anhydrous" and "anhedonic", formed un-classically? They must be unclassical. Greek had no way of representing the rough breathing in that position, presumably because it couldn't occur. SignatureJames "LFS" <laura@...> asked whether "a historical" or "an historical" is correct. Use your first guess. I heard radio announcers pronounce "an historical", and it sounds awkward, with a lot of extra space between words. The way I hear it, aych is a consonant, and if someone writes "an historical", then it is awkward to pronounce anything but "an 'istorical". Follow your first impulse, whether you read it from someone first, or you followed your own rules, "a historical" treats an aych like a consonant, which is exactly what it is. _______ http://ecn.ab.ca/~brewhaha/font/fonoglif.pdf 3p./colour >"LFS" <laura@...> asked whether "a historical" or "an historical" is >correct. That seems extraordinarily unlikely. Katy On 29 Jul 2010, wrote >> "LFS" <laura@...> asked whether "a historical" or "an historical" is >> correct. > > That seems extraordinarily unlikely. Indeed, although I must admit I was mildly surprised when she asked whether she should write one or the other. (She posed the question more than 2 months ago, though, so I imagine the nag is not only truly dead but comprehensively flogged...) SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed > On 29 Jul 2010, wrote > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (She posed the question more than 2 months ago, though, so I imagine the nag > is not only truly dead but comprehensively flogged...) What I actually wrote in May was: -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Should I write "a historical perspective" or "an historical perspective"? I was quite happy with the first until I came across a recent paper which used the second. The author is from the US so I wondered if it was a more prevalent usage in Leftpondia. Any thoughts? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- I'm not sure that this is quite the same as asking which is correct. The responses were far from conclusive and I shall eventually find out what the good people at Oxford University Press think. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 29 Jul 2010, LFS wrote >> On 29 Jul 2010, wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > I'm not sure that this is quite the same as asking which is correct. My apologies for being obscure: I meant to imply that I don't think they are the same. (That is, the stylistic question of "Which should I use?" doesn't inevitably involve "correctness".) > The responses were far from conclusive and I shall eventually find out > what the good people at Oxford University Press think. I think it winds up as one of those stylistic pays-your-money-takes-your- choice things. I know I've mentioned before that I say (and thus write) "an historical", since I'd pronounce the article in "a historical" as in "pay" rather than "cat". (I find the latter both awkward and ugly.) And since "ahistorical" is definitely part of my active working vocabulary, it would simply never occur to my mind's ear to speak of "a historical perspective" when I meant an historical one. SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed |
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