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Discussion Groups / English Usage / May 2010Murakami/Rubin: made me lie down on the bed
Hello: Both "she made me lie on the bed" and "made me lie down on the bed" seem to imply horizontality, or that's guaranteed only with the 2nd? -- ... she made me lie down on the bed. She kept on her clothes, though. The wind-up bird chronicle, p. 190 By Haruki Murakami, Tr. Jay Rubin ---- --- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The wind-up bird chronicle, p. 190 > By Haruki Murakami, Tr. Jay Rubin I think lying must be horizontal in both cases. I take 'lie down' to imply that I was sitting (up) or standing (up) immediately beforehand. If she just made me lie on the bed, I might have been lying on the floor or the settee previously, or sitting or standing up; plain 'lie' carries little information about what went before. The (up)s in brackets are examples of parenthetical further explanations of the preceding word, which I have just written about in the "baling out" thread. -- franzi On May 27, 6:13 pm, franzi <et.in.arcadia.fra...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Both > > "she made me lie on the bed" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > ... she made me lie down on the bed. She kept on her clothes, though. > I think lying must be horizontal in both cases. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > explanations of the preceding word, which I have just written about in > the "baling out" thread. Interesting. Thank you. Marius Hancu >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > standing up; plain 'lie' carries little information about what went > before. 'lie down' is specific but 'lie' alone could mean 'not tell the truth' see also http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie >>> Hello: >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > 'lie down' is specific but 'lie' alone could mean 'not tell the truth' > see also http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie That is a total red herring. Franzi has explained the position: "lie down" is the movement verb; "lie" is mostly the state. Compare "stand up" and "stand" or "sit down" and "sit".  SignatureRob Bannister >>>> Hello: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > down" is the movement verb; "lie" is mostly the state. Compare "stand > up" and "stand" or "sit down" and "sit". Not 'stand' and 'stand down' with 'sit' and 'sit down (??) No, I don't smell like a smoked herring :-) >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I think lying must be horizontal in both cases. Indeed. The assumption must, I think, always be that the bed is horizontal and that you must, of necessity, position yourself in the same plane to lie or to lie down on it. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >> ... she made me lie down on the bed. She kept on her clothes, though. > >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and that you must, of necessity, position yourself in the same plane to lie > or to lie down on it. The case demonstrates yet further the difference between the rules_1 of English and the rules_2 of logic. Rule_2 implies consistently (i.e. rule_1 concurs) that when we lie the torso is horizontal and when we sit the torso is (more or less vertical), so we suppose some link between this orthogonal difference and the choice of different words. However we say all of: 1: sit (this word alone, if in the imperative mood) 2: sit down 3: lie (grammatically possible, but syntactically very rare) 4: lie down However we also say 5: sit up 6: lie up but these have meanings very different from cases 1-4 -- all part of the language's richly diverse inconsistencies . . . SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >>> Hello: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > and that you must, of necessity, position yourself in the same plane to lie > or to lie down on it. But "she made me lie on the bed" could mean a change from a sitting or crouching position; the "down" implies the original position was more vertical than that. Of course, after years of telling students to "sit down, sit up and shut up", I'm no longer sure of my ups and downs. SignatureRob Bannister On May 27, 6:13 pm, franzi <et.in.arcadia.fra...@googlemail.com> wrote: > > Both > > "she made me lie on the bed" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > ... she made me lie down on the bed. She kept on her clothes, though. > I think lying must be horizontal in both cases. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > standing up; plain 'lie' carries little information about what went > before. Is "down" in "sitting down" here: --- Sitting down beside me, she took a pack of Virginia Slims from the bag and lit up with a small golden lighter. p. 330 --- also an indicator of movement, as opposed to just position? Marius Hancu >On May 27, 6:13 pm, franzi <et.in.arcadia.fra...@googlemail.com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >--- >also an indicator of movement, as opposed to just position? Yes, movement. The sentence describes a series of actions. She was initially standing. She sat down she took the pack of cigarettes from the bag she took a cigarette from the pack[1] she lit the cigarette. [1] That action is implied. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) On May 30, 2:37 pm, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" <m...@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > >On May 27, 6:13 pm, franzi <et.in.arcadia.fra...@googlemail.com> > >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > [1] That action is implied. Thanks. Marius Hancu << Both "she made me lie on the bed" and "made me lie down on the bed" seem to imply horizontality, or that's guaranteed only with the 2nd? -- ... she made me lie down on the bed. She kept on her clothes, though. The wind-up bird chronicle, p. 190? By Haruki Murakami, Tr. Jay Rubin Your instincts are right. Both phrases are current (normal) English and both imply horizontal position, but they are nonidentical and the difference matters. The variant chosen here seems subtly wrong -- a hint that the translator does not know or does not care about differences between the variants. This indifference is nowadays common. English 100 at U.Minn. did not inhibit Bobby Zimmerman (Bob Dylan) from writing "Lay, lady, lay . . . " SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > << > Both [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > that the translator does not know or does not care > about differences between the variants. It's too subtle for me. > This indifference is nowadays common. English 100 at > U.Minn. did not inhibit Bobby Zimmerman (Bob Dylan) > from writing "Lay, lady, lay . . . " Because women don't need to be told to lie. --Jeff SignatureLove consists of overestimating the differences between one woman and another. --George Bernard Shaw > << > Both [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > U.Minn. did not inhibit Bobby Zimmerman (Bob Dylan) > from writing "Lay, lady, lay . . . " I am currently reading a multi-ology of books by an author I like... or would like immensely if he didn't keep on writing "lay" when it should be "lie". SignatureRob Bannister |
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