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Discussion Groups / English Usage / July 2010'Dirty Harry' S Truman
There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) on the in principle simple question: Is the nickname 'Dirty Harry' for Truman contemporaneous, i.e. was it used in his time as president, or is it an invention after the fact, which came after the movie with that title? [1] Can anyone here speak the decisive word? Jan [1] Triggered by <http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/item_sDemhFqf5aowS1 9cRZmhwJ;jsessionid=EAEFD741D353645957B57D20534803F2E> J. J. Lodder filted: >There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Can anyone here speak the decisive word? I don't know if anyone called Truman "Dirty", but it wouldn't surprise me...political opponents have been doing that since people starting joining up and taking sides, Truman was known to be an "earthy" sort which might have encouraged the association, and then there's the inevitable conflation of "Harry" with "hairy".... It's interesting that B Kliban used the name "Harry" for this cartoon: http://www.yahoodrummers.com/davey/kliban/images/neabtyh_chickentoes.jpg ....r [2] Truman anecdote reported in Time magazine, inter alia: Truman once offended a friend of his wife's by referring repeatedly to "the good manure" that must have been used to nurture the fine blossoms at a Washington horticulture show. "Bess, couldn't you get the President to say 'fertilizer'?" the woman complained. Replied Mrs. Truman: "Heavens, no. It took me 25 years to get him to say 'manure.' "  SignatureMe? Sarcastic? Yeah, right. > J. J. Lodder filted: >> There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > encouraged the association, and then there's the inevitable conflation of > "Harry" with "hairy".... Google Books finds no references to Dirty Harry applied to Truman, only a basketball player named Harry Hopkins in 1941. SignatureJames > There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > <http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/item_sDemhFqf5aowS1 > 9cRZmhwJ;jsessionid=EAEFD741D353645957B57D20534803F2E> http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/808217/harry_truman_give_em_hell_harry_ or.html?cat=37 http://tinyurl.com/38es6g7 [nb - you make life easier for those wishing to follow your links if you show an abbreviated version using one of the standard services - saves a lot of farting around] "He was called "Give-em-hell" Harry, but he might also have been called "Dirty Harry"" Suggests it wasn't in use at the time. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > > There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > > on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > show an abbreviated version using one of the standard services - saves a lot > of farting around] Ah I see, you are enslaved by the evil empire. Destroying or not honouring norms is M$'s core business. For those outside, enclosing a ref in < > does the trick, even with returns in between. You might take the habit, and use < > even if it doesn't work for you. > "He was called "Give-em-hell" Harry, but he might also have been called > "Dirty Harry"" > > Suggests it wasn't in use at the time. Yes, unlike 'Tricky Dick(y)', which was widely used, Jan >>> There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >>> on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > You might take the habit, and use < > > even if it doesn't work for you. I'll start as soon as you start using tinyurl, snipurl or something similar. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >>> There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > >>> on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > I'll start as soon as you start using tinyurl, snipurl or something similar. Never. I have seen too much tiny abuse. And just wondering: Why have you internalized the evil empire's decrees to such an extent that you refuse to do the right thing? Jan >>>>> There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >>>>> on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Why have you internalized the evil empire's decrees > to such an extent that you refuse to do the right thing? And yet my solution works for everyone and yours doesn't. What is good, Phaedo, if we exclude some people or we exclude none? And could you offer documented evidence of this "abuse". And it is you who has refused - I have merely postponed comditionally. BTW, I sense you may be running out of tiresomely repeated cliches for Microsoft so here are some more: Microshaft, Microsloth, Microslave, Microslug ... heaven forbid you should have to find some original terminology for the most widely used operating system in the world or even, heaven forfend!, find something new to rail at. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >>>>> There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > >>>>> on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > documented evidence of this "abuse". And it is you who has refused - I have > merely postponed comditionally. Indeed Phaedo, it is a difficult question. Should we do the right thing, or should we go with the masses? We are not going to agree, it seems, Jan >>>>>>> There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >>>>>>> on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > Indeed Phaedo, it is a difficult question. > Should we do the right thing, or should we go with the masses? How pretentious, to think your choice of operating system is somehow 'right'. But I understand your point - you don't care if people can't easily follow your links because they are 'masses' using the 'wrong' system. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >>>>>>> There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > >>>>>>> on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > But I understand your point - you don't care if people can't easily follow > your links because they are 'masses' using the 'wrong' system. May I remind your noble person that it was you who injected this most pretentious reference into this humble thread? And as for the masses: if you sample I think you will find that ordinary <correct> or otherwise references far outnumber the rarely seen tiny-s, Jan >> How pretentious, to think your choice of operating system is somehow >> 'right'. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > May I remind your noble person that it was you who injected > this most pretentious reference into this humble thread? Which pretentious reference? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >> How pretentious, to think your choice of operating system is somehow > >> 'right'. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Which pretentious reference? You shouldn't snip first and ask for what you snipped next, Jan >>>> How pretentious, to think your choice of operating system is >>>> somehow 'right'. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > You shouldn't snip first and ask for what you snipped next, Then be my guest and reinsert it for I have no idea what you're talking about. >> [1] Triggered by >> <http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/item_sDemhFqf5aowS1 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >show an abbreviated version using one of the standard services - saves a lot >of farting around] I find the easy way to get around these is to click on reply, then delete two characters beween the first and second line, and then click. Does that work with OE? ' SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years > There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > <http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/item_sDemhFqf5aowS1 > 9cRZmhwJ;jsessionid=EAEFD741D353645957B57D20534803F2E> The NY Post (web page) headline reads "Dirty" Harry not "Dirty Harry" and was probably written by a copyeditor (not author Zachary Karabell) and the article was probably written by Karabell to promote his latest book, about the US presidential election of 1948. The word "dirty" appears nowhere in Karabell's article. The dates are not at issue. Truman was US President 1945-52 and died in 1972. The eponymous Clint Eastwood film was released in 1971. During his years in Congress (from 1934) Truman was not prominent and was generally regarded as a "machine politician," i.e. a mere agent of the Boss Pendergast political machine that controlled local politics in Missouri. He came to Pres. Roosevelt's attention as chairman of a congressional committee monitoring war contracts, thus was chosen in 1944 (by Democratic party powers, not by FDR personally) to run for election as FDR's vice president. His enemies no doubt despised him as a Pendergast stooge, but I do not think anyone accused Truman of taking bribes (the usual association of "dirty" in the US political lexicon.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > > There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > > on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > I do not think anyone accused Truman of taking bribes (the usual > association of "dirty" in the US political lexicon.) Though, interestingly, that's not what makes the Clint Eastwood character, Harry Calaghan, 'dirty' - it's taking the law into his own hands. DC -- >>> There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >>> on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > character, Harry Calaghan, 'dirty' - it's taking the law into his own > hands. His own explanation in the film: "Now you know why they call me 'Dirty Harry'. Every dirty job that comes along." SignatureJames >There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] ><http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/item_sDemhFqf5aowS1 >9cRZmhwJ;jsessionid=EAEFD741D353645957B57D20534803F2E> I always had an interest in the life of Truman. He died when I was a graduate student, and my memories of him are vivid. At no time did I ever hear or read of anyone calling him "Dirty Harry." He was called "Give 'em hell" Harry, but that was for a short time during the '48 campaign. I hadn't heard "Dirty Harry" until the Clint Eastwood character appeared. I think you are witnessing the birth of an urban legend. > >There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > >on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > character appeared. I think you are witnessing the birth of an urban > legend. Thanks, leaves no room for doubt. I forwarded your reaction, Jan >>There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >>on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >character appeared. I think you are witnessing the birth of an urban >legend. I don't think he was ever called "the buck stops here Harry", but that phrase and "Give 'em hell" are always associated with HST in my mind. SignatureTony Cooper - Orlando, Florida >>> There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >>> on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I don't think he was ever called "the buck stops here Harry", but that > phrase and "Give 'em hell" are always associated with HST in my mind. Those two and "What does the 'S' stand for Mr Truman?" SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >>> There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > >>> on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Those two and "What does the 'S' stand for Mr Truman?" And don't ask him about the . following the S Jan >>>There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >>>on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>character appeared. I think you are witnessing the birth of an urban >>legend. Let's hope not. Maybe peoplle like her, who care about the facts, can quash it. >I don't think he was ever called "the buck stops here Harry", but that >phrase and "Give 'em hell" are always associated with HST in my mind. "I don't give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years >>There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >>on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > character appeared. I think you are witnessing the birth of an urban > legend. Note: In today's politics, the term "Dingy Harry" (but not "Dirty Harry") is used by conservative talk radio host, Rush Limbaugh, to describe Democrat Senator Harry Reid (Senate Majority Leader). Pronunciation of dingy: 'din-je definition: dirty, unclean, or shabby, squalid. One's political views probably determine whether the sobriquet/nickname is funny or unfunny, true or false. SignatureMaria Conlon "I have wondered at times about what the Ten Commandments would have looked like if Moses had run them through the U.S.. Congress." -- Ronald Reagan [...] > Note: In today's politics, the term "Dingy Harry" (but not "Dirty > Harry") is used by conservative talk radio host, Rush Limbaugh, to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > One's political views probably determine whether the > sobriquet/nickname is funny or unfunny, true or false. I'm a damlibrull, as you know, and I think it's funny. I guess I'd use it of somebody who was fairly grubby, but not sordid enough to be called straight-out "dirty"... in fact, I can't wait for the opportunity to say that far too many of our elected representatives may not actually be dirty, but they're certainly pretty dingy. SignatureMike. > >>There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > >>on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > One's political views probably determine whether the sobriquet/nickname is > funny or unfunny, true or false. Looking at it from the outside I would say that it is typical of the dirty style of US politics that this kind of name calling is used at all, Jan >> >>There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >> >>on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > that it is typical of the dirty style of US politics > that this kind of name calling is used at all, 1. Name-calling? I wouldn't call it that when the term used is, more or less, a joke. 2. Making fun of the political opposition is a time-honored tradition in the US. 3. However: Telling the full, nasty, hard truth about a dishonest political foe is something rarely done. (Too dangerous to politicians as a whole.) IMO, Maria Conlon > >> >>There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > >> >>on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > 1. Name-calling? I wouldn't call it that when the term used is, more or > less, a joke. Sure, you are used to it. > 2. Making fun of the political opposition is a time-honored tradition in the > US. I know. In other parts of the world the same may be seen as a lack of civilization. > 3. However: Telling the full, nasty, hard truth about a dishonest political > foe is something rarely done. (Too dangerous to politicians as a whole.) Beware of politicians (or anybody else) telling 'the truth', Jan Signature"Seek the company of those who are searching for the truth, and avoid those who have found it." (Vaclav Havel) J. J. Lodder wrote. > Beware of politicians (or anybody else) telling 'the truth', > > Jan But that seldom happens. (Is that why you put 'the truth' in quotes?) SignatureMaria Conlon > J. J. Lodder wrote. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > But that seldom happens. (Is that why you put 'the truth' in quotes?) Huh? You really don't have any politicians peddling the truth over there? It seems to me they all do. Just one example: "I don't give them hell." "I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Jan >> J. J. Lodder wrote. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Jan Why limit this to politicians? > >> J. J. Lodder wrote. > >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > Why limit this to politicians? "(or anybody else)"? Jan >> >> J. J. Lodder wrote. >> >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >Jan "Everybody lies.". -- Greg House >>> >> J. J. Lodder wrote. >>> >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >>Jan >"Everybody lies.". > -- Greg House But not all the time. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Murray Arnow filted: >>> >"I don't give them hell." >>> >"I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >"Everybody lies.". > -- Greg House Not Vulcans....r SignatureMe? Sarcastic? Yeah, right. >>> >> J. J. Lodder wrote. >>> >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> >>Jan > "Everybody lies.". > -- Greg House Murray: thanks for mentioning Greg House. The actor, Hugh Laurie, and the series "House," are faves of mine. And Yes, "everybody lies," but sometimes it's harmless, or even kinder than not. In the case of presidents, it's possibly necessary for some reason we only learn when the history books reveal it. But as I just indicated in a reply to Jan, politicians are not generally deemed to be truth-tellers, and they are not necessarily lying for good reason (unless getting elected is considered a good enough reason). Maria Conlon, Possibly being too negative. >>>> >> J. J. Lodder wrote. >>>> >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Murray: thanks for mentioning Greg House. The actor, Hugh Laurie, and > the series "House," are faves of mine. Mine too, and he's almost family as he is married to the daughter of my cousin's wife's cousin... > And Yes, "everybody lies," but sometimes it's harmless, or even kinder > than not. In the case of presidents, it's possibly necessary for some [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > deemed to be truth-tellers, and they are not necessarily lying for good > reason (unless getting elected is considered a good enough reason). As I get older, I seem to be more and more surprised when I find that someone - politicians and all sorts - has been telling the truth. > Maria Conlon, > Possibly being too negative. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 30 Jul 2010, Maria Conlon wrote > But as I just indicated in a reply to Jan, politicians are not generally > deemed to be truth-tellers, and they are not necessarily lying for good > reason (unless getting elected is considered a good enough reason). Although I'd not disagree with that, I think that politicians have learned to avoid telling the truth because the electorate *hates* being told the truth unless it already agrees with what they think. Indeed, on the (few) occasions that I've heard politicians tell an unpalatable truth about something, they've more often than not been slated for it and have had to grovel with an apology -- even in cases where everyone you talk to will say "He's right, y'know". SignatureCheers, Harvey CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed J. J. Lodder wrote: . >> J. J. Lodder wrote. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You really don't have any politicians peddling the truth > over there? It seems to me they all do. My point: politicians seldom tell the truth (unless under oath, and even then -- well.....). > Just one example: > "I don't give them hell." > "I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Ah, yes. Harry Truman. He may have been more honest than most, though that particular example seems (to me) rather short of proving anything. Maria Conlon, Who may or may not be right. > J. J. Lodder wrote: . > >> J. J. Lodder wrote. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Ah, yes. Harry Truman. He may have been more honest than most, though that > particular example seems (to me) rather short of proving anything. It proves to Vaclav Havel (who had lots of experience with Marxist possessors of the truth) that he was company that is best avoided. I tend to agree with Havel, Jan Signature"Seek the company of those who are searching for the truth, and avoid those who have found it." (Vaclav Havel) (not an original btw, others have said more or less the same) > >There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > >on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > character appeared. I think you are witnessing the birth of an urban > legend. My mother disliked him intensely (not as much as she disliked FDR, and I never heard her call him "Dirty Harry." Not even after our elevator ride with him (during which she shook his hand) when she had lots to say to his detriment. . (Mayflower Hotel, Washington DC, 1962.) > There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Can anyone here speak the decisive word? The phrase doesn't occur in either Google Books or the _NY Times_ archive before 1971, in reference to the movie, so I'd I'd say it's quite unlikely that it was used in reference to Truman. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The bathwater, in this case, does 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |not appear to ever have contained Palo Alto, CA 94304 |any baby. | kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | ronniecat (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >on the in principle simple question: >Is the nickname 'Dirty Harry' for Truman contemporaneous, >i.e. was it used in his time as president, No, not at all. >or is it an invention after the fact, >which came after the movie with that title? [1] Yes, probably the phrase was first used in the movie, or if the movie came from a book, in the book. Or maybe some other source, but few had heard it before the movie. As to Harry Truman, I only heard about this in the past year, in the same question you are asking. >Can anyone here speak the decisive word? Yes, someone brought this up six months ago. No, no one ever referred to Harry Truman as Dirty Harry except maybe his mother when he was 3 years old and playing in the mud. >Jan > >[1] Triggered by ><http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/item_sDemhFqf5aowS1 >9cRZmhwJ;jsessionid=EAEFD741D353645957B57D20534803F2E> SignaturePosters should say where they live, and for which area they are asking questions. I was born and then lived in Western Pa. 10 years Indianapolis 7 years Chicago 6 years Brooklyn, NY 12 years Baltimore 26 years There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) on the in principle simple question: Is the nickname 'Dirty Harry' for Truman contemporaneous, i.e. was it used in his time as president, or is it an invention after the fact, which came after the movie with that title? Can anyone here speak the decisive word? There is mention on the web that "Dirty Harry" was a nickname used by the Japanese. I would guess that the time was while he was president. ------------------------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ------------------------------------------------------------- (Ancient wisdom needs booster shots.) > There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >------------------------------------------------------------- >(Ancient wisdom needs booster shots.) We went through all this a while back. Did JJ post the question again, or are you answering a very old post? Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > > There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > > on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > We went through all this a while back. Not that I remember. What I do remember is a longish piece of thread resulting from Chuck Riggs' saying that Truman's S stands for 'Shameful'. > Did JJ post the question > again, or are you answering a very old post? I asked, but not again, Jan >> > There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >> > on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >I asked, but not again, You've forced me to check it out and I see that the discussion was in alt.english.usage beginning on 21 March 2010. I can see why I was confused. My current news server does not carry alt.english.usage, but if yorus does you might want to see what was said there. Or go to http://groups.google.com/group/alt.english.usage/browse_thread/thread/15aa55eaae 16dfc7/feb0f4042accb81e?hl=en&q=Truman+%22Dirty+Harry%22# http://tinyurl.com/2crsax3 Signature************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > >> > There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > >> > on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > http://tinyurl.com/2crsax3 No need to, I have it archived for myself, since google can no longer be trusted, Jan > There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > nickname used by the Japanese. I would guess that the time > was while he was president. No known connnection with the Japanese. That's just American bad conscience playing up, Jan > There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > <http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/item_sDemhFqf5aowS1 > 9cRZmhwJ;jsessionid=EAEFD741D353645957B57D20534803F2E> I never heard of it used for anything before the movie character, but Wikipedia says that a nuclear test of 1953 was nicknamed Dirty Harry. -- Donna Richoux >> There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) >> on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I never heard of it used for anything before the movie character, but > Wikipedia says that a nuclear test of 1953 was nicknamed Dirty Harry. "... when details were released publicly." Even allowing snippets, I don't see anything in Google Books that mentions this before 1981. It's not clear when the "Harry" designation became publicly known, but I see a 6/3/1979 _NY Times_ article that talks about Utah ranchers suing the US government "armed with newly-released Government documents". If this is when it acquired its nickname, it's safely in the context of the movie title. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"Revolution" has many definitions. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |From the looks of this, I'd say Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"going around in circles" comes |closest to applying... kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Richard M. Hartman (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > There is a discussion raging in another forum (nl.taal) > > on the in principle simple question: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I never heard of it used for anything before the movie character, but > Wikipedia says that a nuclear test of 1953 was nicknamed Dirty Harry. The sites I see say that it was code-nemed Harry, and -later- nicknamed 'Dirty Harry'. They don't say how much later, Jan |
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