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Discussion Groups / English Usage / September 2010The question mark comma issue
Hello: I always have an initial halting moment when parsing the question mark in such sentences including quoted speech: 1. “Go and play with the rest of them, will you?” Mrs Kayne said to her daughter. 2. “Go and play with the rest of them, will you?” Mrs Kayne seemed really upset. There's no break and a single sentence in 1, while there's a break and two sentences in 2. I wish we could insert a comma after the question mark in 1 in order to show continuity, and a period after the question mark in 2 in order to show stoppage. I know it can't be done with present punctuation, but the issue remains ... Marius Hancu Marius Hancu <marius.hancu@gmail.com>: >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >I know it can't be done with present punctuation, but the issue >remains ... I'd follow my normal punctuation practice, resulting in: 1. “Go and play with the rest of them, will you?”, Mrs Kayne said to her daughter. 2. “Go and play with the rest of them, will you?”. Mrs Kayne seemed really upset. But I'm British. And if the above isn't conventional British, so be it.  SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >> I always have an initial halting moment when parsing the question >> mark [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > But I'm British. And if the above isn't conventional British, so be > it. I usually follow Dr. Darling's recommendations, based in this case on New York Public Library Writer's Guide to Style and Usage HarperCollins: New York. 1994. 277. Doing so, I'd omit the punctuation following the closing quotation mark. As for Marius' question about distinguishing a continuing sentence from a two-sentence group, that’s where distinctive spacing between sentences comes in handy, and that's why I still use two spaces after a sentence. SignatureSkitt (SF Bay Area) http://come.to/skitt [...] > As for Marius' question about distinguishing a continuing sentence from > a two-sentence group, that’s where distinctive spacing between sentences > comes in handy, and that's why I still use two spaces after a sentence. I wish more people could see the common sense in that. Including those who design text-editing and word-processing applications. SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ > I always have an initial halting moment when parsing the question mark > in such sentences including quoted speech: Wrong point: punctuation conventions are posterior to grammar, and "parsing" is part of grammatical analysis, not thought about punctuation. > 1. “Go and play with the rest of them, will you?” Mrs Kayne said to > her daughter. > > 2. “Go and play with the rest of them, will you?” Mrs Kayne seemed > really upset. No. 1 is a single sentence, with reported speech. By convention, the quoted speech is punctuated to end with a comma (instead of a period) but this rule is superseded (1) by a question mark, if the last sentence quoted is a question, (2) by a period if this is also the end of the whole sentence (with the main verb "said.") No. 2 is two distinct sentences; the reported speech is one (and the omission of who said it or to whom is a topic of literary style, not grammar; the last five words are a separate sentence, with main verb "seemed." SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > "Marius Hancu" <marius.hancu@gmail.com> wrote in message news:c1f2b348-77e6-4c29-8f30-75ea683a63ad@w19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com... >> I always have an initial halting moment when parsing the question mark >> in such sentences including quoted speech: > > Wrong point: punctuation conventions are posterior to grammar, and > "parsing" is part of grammatical analysis, not thought about > punctuation. . . . That's a bit unfair. Certainly "parse" has that sense, but it also has the wider sense of "To make sense of; comprehend" (AHD, sense 3b) or "To examine closely or subject to detailed analysis, especially by breaking up into components", sense 3a). OT sidebar: even the AHD has fallen into the (mostly AmE) bad habit of overextended propositions: what is wrong with simple especially by breaking up into components "especially by breaking into components"? Does it matter if it is "breaking up" or "breaking down" or "breaking along a zig-zag"? SignatureCordially, Eric Walker, Owlcroft House http://owlcroft.com/english/ Marius Hancu: > I always have an initial halting moment when parsing the question mark > in such sentences including quoted speech: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 2. "Go and play with the rest of them, will you?" Mrs Kayne seemed > really upset. This is one of the cases where the convention of using extra interword space between sentences is helpful. On Usenet, or in troff input, I'd render the above as: 1. "Go and play with the rest of them, will you?" Mrs. Kayne said to her daughter. 2. "Go and play with the rest of them, will you?" Mrs. Kayne seemed really upset. SignatureMark Brader "'You wanted it to WORK? That costs EXTRA!' Toronto is probably the second-place security hole msb@vex.net after simple carelessness." -- John Woods My text in this article is in the public domain. > > I always have an initial halting moment when parsing the question mark > > in such sentences including quoted speech: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 2. "Go and play with the rest of them, will you?" Mrs. Kayne seemed > really upset. Indeed, seems a good idea. I'll keep that in mind. Thank you all. Marius Hancu In article <7e80af59-376a-40ba-88fd-a857805f4337@a15g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>, > > > I always have an initial halting moment when parsing the question mark > > > in such sentences including quoted speech: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Thank you all. > Marius Hancu In the first example, the problem, if there is one, could be solved by placing "said" before Mrs. Kayne. The necessity to capitalize the "Mrs." allows for some confusion. The "said," however, quickly removes the confusion, but shifting "said" forward eliminates even the potential. (It would be better to use "ask" in this case. It is a question.) The second example is unambiguous, at least regarding the punctuation. We don't know who said the quoted sentence. > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Marius Hancu Current Chicago Manual of Style likes that extra punctuation! So far, though, it's the only one. And it's wrong! >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Current Chicago Manual of Style likes that extra punctuation! So far, > though, it's the only one. And it's wrong! I've always liked that extra punctuation. The convention that "if two periods or question marks are separated by a quotation mark, one of them can be dropped" has never made any sense to me. It doesn't save much ink, and it makes the text harder to read. In some cases it's actively confusing. Did you say "where are we?"? Dropping the second question mark throws away important information. SignaturePeter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org For an e-mail address, see my web page. |
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