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Jonathan Strange and Mr Nor-ELL

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Lewis - 27 Sep 2010 05:41 GMT
I've read Ms. Clarke's book several times and always read the name of
one of the main characters as nor-ELL. Sort of like Superman's dad,
Jor-el.

Today, I started listening to the audiobook and was rather surprised to
hear the name pronounced Norl.

There isn't even a hint of the 'e' and the name is a single syllable.

It's taking me some getting used to.

"Unquestionably the finest English novel of the fantastic written in the
last 70 years". - Neil Gaiman

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Donna Richoux - 27 Sep 2010 10:09 GMT
> I've read Ms. Clarke's book several times and always read the name of
> one of the main characters as nor-ELL. Sort of like Superman's dad,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> There isn't even a hint of the 'e' and the name is a single syllable.

I still tend to think of the composer Purcell as pur-SELL and Gerald
Durrell as dur-RELL even though I've been told both are the other way.
It must come from reading names more than hearing them.

Now that I think of it, I grew up knowing a family named Farrell,
pronounced Fairl, and boys named Darrell (Dair-l). I would expect
Burrell to be Burl, although I would wonder whether someone named
Worrell was Wurl or Worl.

Nonrhotic people probably do something odd with those R's, seeing as
they tend to say "squirrel" as something much like "squiddle."

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Best --- Donna Richoux
An American living in the Netherlands

Roland Hutchinson - 28 Sep 2010 06:43 GMT
>> I've read Ms. Clarke's book several times and always read the name of
>> one of the main characters as nor-ELL. Sort of like Superman's dad,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Durrell as dur-RELL even though I've been told both are the other way.
> It must come from reading names more than hearing them.

I am creditably informed that many of our British friends persist in the
pronunciation pur-SELL so as not to confuse the composer with the washing-
up liquid (Persil).   Well, actually what I was told is that "PUR-sell"
sounds like washing-up liquid.  I suppose the danger of actual confusion
is quite minimal.

I'm convinced this is somehow connected to BBC Radio 4's always using
"viola player" rather than "violist" (a word widely adopted during the
20th-century, with the accent on the second syllable, not to be confused
with "violist", accent on the first syllable, a player upon the viol, of
the sort that were not thick upon the ground when viola players hijacked
the homograph for themselves.)

I notice that the OED records only the second (viol player) pronunciation
for both meanings.  I believe this to be an outright error, at least as
far as 20th- and 21st-century pronunciation is concerned.  I couldn't
swear that the word was never used with that pronunciation to refer to a
viola player earlier (though even the word viola was a bit exotic
earlier, the instrument usually being called in English "tenor" or, more
specifically, "tenor violin"; first OED citations for "viola" in this
sense are ca. 1800).

What's the incantation to get the OED's attention here again?

I also gotta get on them for not recording "violist da gamba" (which gets
the "viola player" pronunciation), only the oddly archaic (from 1915)
form "viol da gambist".  Plenty of time 'til they get to the Vs in the
current revision pass, right?

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Roland Hutchinson       

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger  ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )

CDB - 28 Sep 2010 14:06 GMT
[and don't get me started about Boleyn]

> I'm convinced this is somehow connected to BBC Radio 4's always
> using "viola player" rather than "violist" (a word widely adopted
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> What's the incantation to get the OED's attention here again?

Sheidlower, Sheidlower, Sheidlower.

> I also gotta get on them for not recording "violist da gamba"
> (which gets the "viola player" pronunciation), only the oddly
> archaic (from 1915) form "viol da gambist".  Plenty of time 'til
> they get to the Vs in the current revision pass, right?
John Varela - 28 Sep 2010 19:13 GMT
> I am creditably informed...

Credibly?

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John Varela

Robert Bannister - 29 Sep 2010 02:52 GMT
> I am creditably informed that many of our British friends persist in the
> pronunciation pur-SELL so as not to confuse the composer with the washing-
> up liquid (Persil).   Well, actually what I was told is that "PUR-sell"
> sounds like washing-up liquid.  I suppose the danger of actual confusion
> is quite minimal.

I had never thought of any possible confusion with Persil, but I have
always heard PurSEll.

> I also gotta get on them for not recording "violist da gamba" (which gets
> the "viola player" pronunciation), only the oddly archaic (from 1915)
> form "viol da gambist".  Plenty of time 'til they get to the Vs in the
> current revision pass, right?

I rather like "viol da gambist".
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Rob Bannister

Roland Hutchinson - 29 Sep 2010 07:25 GMT
>> I am creditably informed that many of our British friends persist in
>> the pronunciation pur-SELL so as not to confuse the composer with the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I had never thought of any possible confusion with Persil, but I have
> always heard PurSEll.

>> I also gotta get on them for not recording "violist da gamba" (which
>> gets the "viola player" pronunciation), only the oddly archaic (from
>> 1915) form "viol da gambist".  Plenty of time 'til they get to the Vs
>> in the current revision pass, right?
>>
> I rather like "viol da gambist".

Modern usage, as you may know, is either "viola da gambist" or "violist
da gamba".  I prefer the latter, but alas most editors who have a
preference (or a dictionary) seem to prefer the former.  The instrument
itself gets a plural of "violas da gamba" or, for the more Italianately
inclined, who probably say like "celli" all the time, or want to make
people think that they do, "viole da gamba", pronounced very
approximately as in Italian.  Of course there's nothing wrong with "viol"
and "viols", and we especially favor those plain English words when sizes
other than the bass are involved (either by themselves or in addition to
the bass): "bass viol" having been skunked by its ambiguity for well over
a couple hundered years by now, it keeps things simple if we skip that
and say "(bass) viola da gamba".

Informally, the player is just a "gambist"--who informally plays a
"gamba".  "Violist" is very usable in speech--but problematic in writing,
for the reasons mentioned upthread, which tends to reduce its use in
speech, I think, quite a bit.

I find it interesting that the form "viola da gamba" --  the usual one
nowadays -- seems not to have been used in English during the
instrument's heyday in the 17th century.  First OED citation is 1724 and
that seems about right from what I've seen.  (I.e., I don't think I can
antedate it, certainly not with a Google Books search which turns up
several pre-1724 hits but only in Italian or German.)  Earlier, when it
wasn't just "viol" or "bass viol" it was "viol de gamba", gambo viol
(early in the century--though I've also got "Viol gambo" in Salisbury in
1759 thanks to a letter to The Musical Times), etc.

Sir Toby Belch in Twelfth Night famously got his hoboys (oboes/shawms)
and his gambo viols mixed up and produced "viol de gamboys". Well perhaps
not so famously: this is, I am sure, a deliberate malapropism (one among
many) that Shakespeare put in his mouth, although that is never explained
when the term is glossed in any of the recent editions of the play that I
have examined--though Rolfe did identify it as a "blunder" in his edition
over a hundred years ago.  The OED cites it without comment s.v. "Viol da
gamba". (All the Shakspeare editors do manage to pick up that "Castellano
vulgo" several lines later is utter and complete nonsense--whether due to
Sir Toby or to the printer or someone else is just about anyone's guess--
illustrating perhaps that Shakespeareans commonly know more about
language than about music.)

Dylan Thomas knew about gambos--but that seems to be a different sort:
it's a dialect word for some kinds of farm cart or sledge, attested only
since the 19th century.

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Roland Hutchinson       

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger  ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )

Robert Bannister - 30 Sep 2010 03:16 GMT
> Informally, the player is just a "gambist"--who informally plays a
> "gamba".  "Violist" is very usable in speech--but problematic in writing,
> for the reasons mentioned upthread, which tends to reduce its use in
> speech, I think, quite a bit.

I'd have thought a "gambist" was someone who played with his or her leg.
"Gambo viol", although sounding like a New Orleans stew, is really a bit
closer to "leg fiddle". Come to think of it, why not anglicise the whole
thing and call yourselves "leg fiddlers"?

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Rob Bannister

R H Draney - 30 Sep 2010 04:18 GMT
Robert Bannister filted:

>> Informally, the player is just a "gambist"--who informally plays a
>> "gamba".  "Violist" is very usable in speech--but problematic in writing,
>> for the reasons mentioned upthread, which tends to reduce its use in
>> speech, I think, quite a bit.
>
>I'd have thought a "gambist" was someone who played with his or her leg.

No, that's "hamboning":

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkFwzzcxs4s

....r

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Me?  Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

Roland Hutchinson - 30 Sep 2010 05:21 GMT
>> Informally, the player is just a "gambist"--who informally plays a
>> "gamba".  "Violist" is very usable in speech--but problematic in
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> closer to "leg fiddle". Come to think of it, why not anglicise the whole
> thing and call yourselves "leg fiddlers"?

Percy Grainger undoubtedly would have done so if he had written for the
instrument! (He was fond of English-only terms and markings like "middle
fiddle" for "viola" and "louden lots" for "molto crescendo").

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Roland Hutchinson       

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger  ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )

Peter Moylan - 29 Sep 2010 07:28 GMT
>> I am creditably informed that many of our British friends persist in the
>> pronunciation pur-SELL so as not to confuse the composer with the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> I rather like "viol da gambist".

To me, it sounds a bit too much like "kill da wabbit".

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Wood Avens - 29 Sep 2010 14:23 GMT
>>> I also gotta get on them for not recording "violist da gamba" (which gets
>>> the "viola player" pronunciation), only the oddly archaic (from 1915)
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>To me, it sounds a bit too much like "kill da wabbit".

Nice!

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Katy Jennison

spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @

Roland Hutchinson - 29 Sep 2010 15:59 GMT
>>>> I also gotta get on them for not recording "violist da gamba" (which
>>>> gets the "viola player" pronunciation), only the oddly archaic (from
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Nice!

Positively Joycean. ("Sir Tristram, violer d'amores, fr'over the short
sea...")

Speaking of French, it's interesting that in French the term "viole de
gambe" has gained enormous popularity during our lifetimes, and seems
largely to have displaced the more common historical name "basse de viole"
or simply "viole".  

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Roland Hutchinson       

He calls himself "the Garden State's leading violist da gamba,"
... comparable to being ruler of an exceptionally small duchy.
--Newark (NJ) Star Ledger  ( http://tinyurl.com/RolandIsNJ )

Peter Moylan - 28 Sep 2010 15:26 GMT
> Nonrhotic people probably do something odd with those R's, seeing as
> they tend to say "squirrel" as something much like "squiddle."

No, you're just being misled by the fact that we pronounce the "i".

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Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.      http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.

Eric Walker - 27 Sep 2010 10:13 GMT
[...]

> Today, I started listening to the audiobook and was rather surprised to
> hear the name pronounced Norl.

I can't imagine "Norris" pronounced "Nors".  But, if that's how the
author wants it (which I suppose to be the case), that's how it is.

> "Unquestionably the finest English novel of the fantastic written in the
> last 70 years". - Neil Gaiman

I think Mr. Gaiman went overboard there, but it is certainly an
outstanding book.

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Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

Lewis - 27 Sep 2010 20:36 GMT
> [...]

>> Today, I started listening to the audiobook and was rather surprised to
>> hear the name pronounced Norl.

> I can't imagine "Norris" pronounced "Nors".  But, if that's how the
> author wants it (which I suppose to be the case), that's how it is.

>> "Unquestionably the finest English novel of the fantastic written in the
>> last 70 years". - Neil Gaiman

> I think Mr. Gaiman went overboard there, but it is certainly an
> outstanding book.

When was LotR published? Since then.

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Eric Walker - 28 Sep 2010 08:05 GMT
[...]

>>> "Unquestionably the finest English novel of the fantastic written in
>>> the last 70 years". - Neil Gaiman
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> When was LotR published? Since then.

I still think that hyperbolic: "unquestionably the finest"?  I'm not in
the mood to assemble a full laundry list of reasonable competitive
candidates, but a few that pop to mind include--

Richard Adams, The Girl in a Swing
Martin Amis, Other People
A. S. Byatt, The Djinn in the Nightingale's Eye
Angela Carter, Nights at the Circus
Eric Eddison, A Fish Dinner in Memison [just clears that "70 years"]
Michael Frayn, Sweet Dreams
M. John Harrison, In Viriconium
M. John Harrison, The Course of the Heart
Russell Hoban, The Lion of Boaz-Jachin and Jachin-Boaz
Russell Hoban, Pilgermann
Robert Irwin, The Arabian Nightmare
Graham Joyce, The Facts of Life
Graham Joyce, Requiem
Tanith Lee, The Book of the Damned
Tanith Lee, Faces Under Water
Magnus Mills, Three to See the King
Mervyn Peake, Titus Groan/Gormenghast/Titus Alone
Keith Roberts, Pavanne
Charles Williams, All Hallows' Eve

I don't assert that each and every one of those is superior to _Strange_,
but it would be hard to deny that many, arguably most, are at least
strong contenders for "as good or better" discussion.  Writers of the
caliber of Peake of Mills or Harrison (just to pick a few) are hard to
dismiss out of hand.

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Cordially,
Eric Walker, Owlcroft House
http://owlcroft.com/english/

Joe Fineman - 27 Sep 2010 22:33 GMT
> I've read Ms. Clarke's book several times and always read the name
> of one of the main characters as nor-ELL. Sort of like Superman's
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> It's taking me some getting used to.

Most Americans, including me, seem to have an odd notion that -el in
names has to be stressed.  For example, when I was in college we
always pronounced "Kittel" of the solid-state physics text "kiTELL",
tho surely in German it was "KITl".  His first name was Charles, and
he was at Berkeley, CA, so I hesitate to speculate how *he* pronounced
it.

"Borel", like "hotel", has the excuse of being French.
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---  Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||:  If you did not wish to be ridden, why did you become an a.s?  :||
R H Draney - 27 Sep 2010 22:47 GMT
Joe Fineman filted:

>Most Americans, including me, seem to have an odd notion that -el in
>names has to be stressed.  For example, when I was in college we
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>"Borel", like "hotel", has the excuse of being French.

The host and announcer of "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" both pronounce their
surnames with the stress on the initial syllable: "Sagal" is "SAY-gull" and
"Kasell" is "CAS-ul"....r

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Me?  Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

Joe Fineman - 28 Sep 2010 20:13 GMT
> The host and announcer of "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" both pronounce
> their surnames with the stress on the initial syllable: "Sagal" is
> "SAY-gull" and "Kasell" is "CAS-ul"....r

But what about the (German) Cassell of my well-worn Cassell's German &
English Dictionary?  I have always made him kaSELL, which is pretty
silly.
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---  Joe Fineman    joe_f@verizon.net

||:  War is an evil in as much as it produces more wicked men  :||
||:  than it takes away.                                       :||
Jerry Friedman - 28 Sep 2010 16:52 GMT
> > I've read Ms. Clarke's book several times and always read the name
> > of one of the main characters as nor-ELL. Sort of like Superman's
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> he was at Berkeley, CA, so I hesitate to speculate how *he* pronounced
> it.

People I know who went to Berkeley accented the second syllable, as I
recall.

> "Borel", like "hotel", has the excuse of being French.

For me it's the double letters.  I was surprised when I learned that
Morrill and Burrill Halls at the University of Illinois are accented
on the first syllable.

This accenting of final syllables before double letters is, of course,
Dorsett's fallacy.

--
Jerry Friedman
 
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