Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching
Learnglish.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2011



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Never EVER use two spaces after a period!

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Berkeley Brett - 23 Nov 2011 19:54 GMT
I hope you are all well & in good spirits.

I am neutral on the opinion expressed in this Slate article -- the
subject line of this post is merely a reflection of the opinion
expressed in the article -- but I would be interested in the thoughts
of our erudite community on this burning issue of our time....

Page 1:
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html

Page 2:
http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.2.html

=== begin quoted text ===

Space Invaders
Why you should never, ever use two spaces after a period.

By Farhad Manjoo
(Jan. 13, 2011)

Can I let you in on a secret? Typing two spaces after a period is
totally, completely, utterly, and inarguably wrong.

And yet people who use two spaces are everywhere, their ugly error
crossing every social boundary of class, education, and taste....
You'd expect, for instance, that anyone savvy enough to read Slate
would know the proper rules of typing, but you'd be wrong; every third
e-mail I get from readers includes the two-space error. (In editing
letters for "Dear Farhad," my occasional tech-advice column, I've
removed enough extra spaces to fill my forthcoming volume of
melancholy epic poetry, The Emptiness Within.) The public relations
profession is similarly ignorant; I've received press releases and
correspondence from the biggest companies in the world that are
riddled with extra spaces. Some of my best friends are irredeemable
two spacers, too, and even my wife has been known to use an
unnecessary extra space every now and then (though she points out that
she does so only when writing to other two-spacers, just to make them
happy).

What galls me about two-spacers isn't just their numbers. It's their
certainty that they're right. Over Thanksgiving dinner last year, I
asked people what they considered to be the "correct" number of spaces
between sentences. The diners included doctors, computer programmers,
and other highly accomplished professionals. Everyone—everyone!—said
it was proper to use two spaces. Some people admitted to slipping
sometimes and using a single space—but when writing something formal,
they were always careful to use two. Others explained they mostly used
a single space but felt guilty for violating the two-space "rule."
Still others said they used two spaces all the time, and they were
thrilled to be so proper. When I pointed out that they were doing it
wrong—that, in fact, the correct way to end a sentence is with a
period followed by a single, proud, beautiful space—the table balked.
"Who says two spaces is wrong?" they wanted to know.... [much more in
the article]

=== end quoted text ===

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may choose to share.

And Happy Thanksgiving to those celebrating that holiday. (A bonus
dynamic Thanksgiving card at this link; simply click the little hat to
"start the show"! http://www.jacquielawson.com/viewcard.asp?code=WQ26144948
)

--
Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA)
http://www.ForeverFunds.org/
My plan for erasing poverty from the world with micro-endowments that
"give" forever into the future
Berkeley Brett - 23 Nov 2011 19:55 GMT
(How two copies of this post occurred with one mouse-click is a
mystery to me!)
David Hatunen - 23 Nov 2011 22:49 GMT
> (How two copies of this post occurred with one mouse-click is a mystery
> to me!)

Oh, dear. Do be careful it doesn't make two spaces after a period.

Signature

Dave Hatunen, Tucson, Baja Arizona

Glenn Knickerbocker - 28 Nov 2011 18:24 GMT
>> (How two copies of this post occurred with one mouse-click is a mystery
>> to me!)
>Oh, dear. Do be careful it doesn't make two spaces after a period.

welcome.  datacomp
Skitt - 23 Nov 2011 20:05 GMT
> I hope you are all well&  in good spirits.
>
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> My plan for erasing poverty from the world with micro-endowments that
> "give" forever into the future

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing

I usually use two spaces when posting with a monospaced font, as I do on
AUE.  I learned to do that when using a typewriter.

By the way, this issue has been discussed in AUE before, and as one
might expect, opinions vary.
Signature

Skitt (SF Bay Area)
http://come.to/skitt

Duggy - 23 Nov 2011 20:24 GMT
> > I hope you are all well&  in good spirits.
>
[quoted text clipped - 74 lines]
> By the way, this issue has been discussed in AUE before, and as one
> might expect, opinions vary.

I love that the writer was upset not that two-spacers did it, but that
they were so sure they were right... and was so certain that (s)he was
right.

===
= DUG.
===
Duggy - 23 Nov 2011 22:07 GMT
> > > I hope you are all well&  in good spirits.
>
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> they were so sure they were right... and was so certain that (s)he was
> right.

Also... editing spaces out of readers letters... it's a small thing,
but should any editing of letters be done at all (except were noted
for space, to remove offensive material, etc)?

===
= DUG.
===
Adam Funk - 27 Nov 2011 12:02 GMT
> See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing
>
> I usually use two spaces when posting with a monospaced font, as I do on
> AUE.  I learned to do that when using a typewriter.

Same here.

> By the way, this issue has been discussed in AUE before, and as one
> might expect, opinions vary.

Yes, but the militancy of the opinions still surprises me a bit.

Signature

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

rwalker - 24 Nov 2011 05:29 GMT
>I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>
>I am neutral on the opinion expressed in this Slate article -- the
>subject line of this post is merely a reflection of the opinion
>expressed in the article -- but I would be interested in the thoughts
>of our erudite community on this burning issue of our time....

Hmmm.  Well, I was taught, nearly 40 years ago, to ALWAYS use two
spaces after a period.
Alan Mackenzie - 24 Nov 2011 18:05 GMT
>>I hope you are all well & in good spirits.

>>I am neutral on the opinion expressed in this Slate article -- the
>>subject line of this post is merely a reflection of the opinion
>>expressed in the article -- but I would be interested in the thoughts
>>of our erudite community on this burning issue of our time....

> Hmmm.  Well, I was taught, nearly 40 years ago, to ALWAYS use two
> spaces after a period.

I was taught to use two spaces after a full stop.  There's actually a good
reason in modern times for this - it enables an editor program (e.g. Emacs)
easily to distinguish between the end of a sentence and an abbreviation
within one.

Signature

Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Sproz - 24 Nov 2011 18:24 GMT
> >>I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
> >>I am neutral on the opinion expressed in this Slate article -- the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> --
> Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

One very popular editor (embedded in the BlackBerry handset range)
auto-replaces two spaces as a full-stop and a space, providing a good
reason in modern times to drop the habit. Double-spacing also screws
up spacing algorithms in some typesetting tools, especially in left-
and-right justified text. And HTML ignores repeated "white-space" by
definition, so the majority of internet text appears with single-
spaced sentences, to no obvious consternation from its hundreds if not
thousands of readers.

Mark
Mark Brader - 24 Nov 2011 19:01 GMT
Mark Sproson:
> Double-spacing also screws up spacing algorithms in some typesetting
> tools, especially in left-and-right justified text.

Better-designed tools, such as TeX and troff, treat it correctly.

> And HTML ignores repeated "white-space" by definition, so the majority
> of internet text appears with single-spaced sentences,

Worse yet, it does not support any form of markup for sentences, thus
going against its own philosophy of leaving formatting decisions in
the reader's hands.  One reason why web pages are so much less legible
than documents formatted by troff.
Signature

Mark Brader | You obviously aren't aware of the new definition for "all".
Toronto     | Do try to keep up.
msb@vex.net |                                            --Charles Bishop

Sproz - 24 Nov 2011 20:03 GMT
> Mark Sproson:
>
> > Double-spacing also screws up spacing algorithms in some typesetting
> > tools, especially in left-and-right justified text.
>
> Better-designed tools, such as TeX and troff, treat it correctly.

Well, then it may be no coincidence that the only book I've managed to
find on my shelves that consistently double-spaces sentences is an old
K&R C Programming Language. All the others have no discernible
difference between word and sentence spacing. Most such tools used in
the book-publishing world appear to treat double spaces as single
spaces.

If double-spacing sentences really did result in more legible text,
how would we ever know?

Mark
Anton Shepelev - 24 Nov 2011 20:35 GMT
Mark Brader:

> Mark Sproson:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Better-designed  tools,  such  as  TeX  and troff,
> treat it correctly.

Not only that, but they  also  provide  for  special
end-of-sentence   formatting.   For  example,  troff
treated every source line ending with '.', '?',  '!'
or  '...' as the end of a sentence and automatically
doubled the following space.

GNU troff has a setting called sentence  space  that
defines  whether, and how, to increase the space af-
ter sentences, and upon encountering a double  space
after  one  of  the aforementioned symbols it treats
them accordingly, so that the spacing of  an  entire
book can be changed via a singe setting.

Speaking  of  WYSIWYG, neither PageMaker's nor InDe-
sign's justification algorithms can be  "screwd  up"
by a double space.  They just treat it as is.

Sproz:

> Well,  then it may be no coincidence that the only
> book I've managed to find on my shelves that  con-
> sistently  double-spaces sentences is an old K&R C
> Programming Language.

Did you know it was typeset using troff?

> If double-spacing sentences really did  result  in
> more legible text, how would we ever know?

I have experimented with it and found it reasonable.
Every element in text has its own  separation.   The
smallest one -- the word -- is separated by a single
space; the next larger element -- the sentence -- by
a  wider space, which is 1.5-2.0 times the interword
space; the paragraph -- by either a  vertical  space
or  an indent of the first line, or by a combination
of both, and so on.

Anton
Sproz - 24 Nov 2011 20:49 GMT
> Mark Brader:
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> them accordingly, so that the spacing of  an  entire
> book can be changed via a singe setting.

I'd expect as much.

> Speaking  of  WYSIWYG, neither PageMaker's nor InDe-
> sign's justification algorithms can be  "screwd  up"
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Did you know it was typeset using troff?

That's what I was getting at. Brian Kernighan (the K in K&R) rewrote
troff for Unix.

> > If double-spacing sentences really did  result  in
> > more legible text, how would we ever know?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> or  an indent of the first line, or by a combination
> of both, and so on.

It may be that book designers carefully adjust the inter-sentence
spacing until they hit upon the perfect proportion for optimum
legibility. If so, then the proportion they arrive at is
indistiguishable to the naked eye from 1:1, assuming my straw poll of
books on my shelf is anything to go by then.

Either the world is full of less-than-optimally legible books and most
of us don't know what we're missing, or the idea that double-spacing
sentences improves legibility is only true for those people who
believe that double-spacing sentences improves legibility.

Mark
Jerry Friedman - 25 Nov 2011 14:55 GMT
> > Mark Brader:
>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> > > If double-spacing sentences really did  result  in
> > > more legible text, how would we ever know?

Studies have been done, and perhaps unsurprisingly, were inconclusive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing#Studies

I didn't see a reference there to any studies with 3/2 or 4/3 (the
default in TeX) of an interword space between sentences, which is what
really needs to be tested.  They just used double and triple.

> > I have experimented with it and found it reasonable.
> > Every element in text has its own  separation.   The
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> indistiguishable to the naked eye from 1:1, assuming my straw poll of
> books on my shelf is anything to go by then.

Yes, it's been standard for some decades to use exactly 1:1, although
it seems to be based more on type designers' taste and fashion, and
maybe on saving paper and saving themselves work, than on any optimum
of legibility.

> Either the world is full of less-than-optimally legible books and most
> of us don't know what we're missing, or the idea that double-spacing
> sentences improves legibility is only true for those people who
> believe that double-spacing sentences improves legibility.

Or vice-versa.  There's certainly no empirical support for the sort of
"Never EVER use two spaces" commandment that Brett quoted in the OP.

I generally don't notice sentence spacing.  When I do, it's when the
space after an abbreviation jars me because it looks like the space
after a sentence.  In this case the supposedly optimal interword-
intersentence space after a period is too big between words.  An
excellent example is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MissingNo.

--
Jerry Friedman
Anton Shepelev - 27 Nov 2011 13:57 GMT
You  may  call this an ad hominem, but I didn't like
the way the article in the original post is written.

When the author says that

   Every  major  style  guide -- including  the
   Modern Language Association Style Manual and
   the Chicago Manual of Style -- prescribes  a
   single space after a period.

even  providing  the  corresponding links, he is not
being sincere.  According to one of the  links,  the
MLA is in fact quite neutral:

   Because it is increasingly common for papers
   and manuscripts to be prepared with a single
   space  after  all  punctuation  marks,  this
   spacing is shown in the examples in the  MLA
   Handbook  and  the  MLA  Style  Manual. As a
   practical matter, however, there is  nothing
   wrong with using two spaces after concluding
   punctuation marks unless  an  instructor  or
   editor requests that you do otherwise.

Furthermore, they give no rational arguments and ex-
plain their viewpoint by the  need  to  reflect  the
common usage!

The other reference, to the Chicago Manual of Style,
is actually to a Q&A section at their site, in which
the  very  style  of  the reply emphasizes its being
just a personal opinion and not the official  recom-
mendation of CMOS:

   The  view  at  [Anton -- sic!)  CMOS is that
   there is no reason for two  spaces  after  a
   period in published work.
   [...]
   So,  in our efficient, modern world, I think
   there is no room for two spaces after a  pe-
   riod.   In  the  opinion  of this particular
   copyeditor, this is a good thing.

Neither can this mild tone be said to be  "prescrib-
ing".

Most of the arguments listed in CMOS's Q&A (and cor-
responsing with those of other  single-spacers)  ap-
peal  to  technical  difficulties like problems with
software and the inefficiency of the typist's  work,
but these must never be taken into account because a
book is typset once, but read millions of times; and
the only acceptable argument is the lack of evidence
as to which way is better.

As Wikipedia says here:

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing

the real CMOS used increased sentence spacing as re-
cently  as in 1969, but had switched to single spac-
ing by 2003 (and I wonder want went on in between).

An assumption seems to prevail that the only  alter-
native  to  single  spacing  is literally to use two
spaces (by pressing the spacebar  twice),  while  in
modern  proportional  typesetting the sentence space
can automatically be made, say, 1.4 times the inter-
word  space, using software's end-of-sentence detec-
tion  algorithms  (not  necessarily  the   same   as
Emacs's).

Another argument is "distracting gaps" caused by in-
creased sentence spacing.  But those gaps  are  only
noticeable  when looking at a printed page, its text
and its letters from an aesthetical point  of  view,
while when reading this negative effect disappears.

The only interesting reference in the original arti-
cle is this one:

   http://www.creativepro.com/article/double-space-or-not-double-space

but again, its authour is not an active proponent of
single spacing.

Sproz:

> It may be that book designers carefully adjust the
> inter-sentence spacing until  they  hit  upon  the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> straw poll of books on my shelf is anything to  go
> by then.

Some  of  them  don't  care, some can't make it with
their software, some excuse themselves by  referring
to  the above arguments and some have a sincere (and
I don't say wrong) conviction that single spacing is
better.

> Either  the  world  is full of less-than-optimally
> legible books and most of us don't know what we're
> missing, or the idea that double-spacing sentences
> improves legibility is only true for those  people
> who believe that double-spacing sentences improves
> legibility.

Our world is certainly an imperfect one.  I can only
ask  about your own opinion from comparing your edi-
tion of K&R and any other book.

Anton

P.S.: I can't agree with  the  view  that  monospace
     fonts  look  ugly.   I  was  a  big fan of the
     VTBulletin typewriter-style font  and  typeset
     in  it  not  only  my cumbersome assembly pro-
     gramms at the university:

         http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/5971/vtbulletin.png

     but also complete English texts.
Sproz - 27 Nov 2011 15:25 GMT
> Sproz:
> > Either  the  world  is full of less-than-optimally
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> ask  about your own opinion from comparing your edi-
> tion of K&R and any other book.

I find it impossible to judge. The mechanical process of reading is a
subconscious activity; anything that makes one aware of the actual
type on the page breaks the spell. But if I try to monitor my own
reading experience the spell is already broken. If anyone's so
dogmatic about double spacing that they consciously notice every
single-spaced sentence, they must be having a miserable time.

However, I don't believe there is some Platonic ideal of sentence
spacing. If you've been reading single-spaced sentences all your life,
then double-spaced ones look odd. It could very well be that in a
parallel universe where typographic conventions are different we read,
on average, slightly faster or with greater comprehension. But in this
one, the most legible text probably looks a lot like most of the rest
of the text we read.

Mark
Garrett Wollman - 27 Nov 2011 19:10 GMT
>However, I don't believe there is some Platonic ideal of sentence
>spacing.

It probably makes very little difference in a monospaced typeface,
because the punctuation marks themselves include extra whitespace.
In typeset text, however, you would expect the inter-sentence space to
stretch more, and compress less, than than the inter-word space.  This
is in fact what TeX does.  (If you think text looks natural with very
large inter-word or even letter spacing, you've been spending too much
time reading newspapers.)

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

Adam Funk - 29 Nov 2011 13:08 GMT
>>However, I don't believe there is some Platonic ideal of sentence
>>spacing.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> large inter-word or even letter spacing, you've been spending too much
> time reading newspapers.)

But there are people today who are militantly opposed to having
inter-sentence spacing any wider than inter-word spacing (on the same
line, that is).  This is one of the crazy reasons that Peter
T. Daniels hates TeX.

Signature

svn ci -m 'come back make, all is forgiven!' build.xml

Anton Shepelev - 29 Nov 2011 14:56 GMT
Adam Funk:

> But  there are people today who are militantly op-
> posed to having inter-sentence spacing  any  wider
> than  inter-word  spacing  (on the same line, that
> is).  This is one of the crazy reasons that  Peter
> T. Daniels hates TeX.

Isn't it configurable in TeX?

Anton
Garrett Wollman - 29 Nov 2011 16:49 GMT
>But there are people today who are militantly opposed to having
>inter-sentence spacing any wider than inter-word spacing (on the same
>line, that is).  This is one of the crazy reasons that Peter
>T. Daniels hates TeX.

Given the choice between Knuth and Daniels, I know which side I'm on.

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

Robert Bannister - 24 Nov 2011 23:01 GMT
>> Mark Sproson:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> If double-spacing sentences really did result in more legible text,
> how would we ever know?

Some books that I buy these days have such small full stops that only
the following capital letter indicates a new sentence. If the sentence
begins with a name, I sometimes have to check to make sense of the text.
I doubt larger spaces would help much.

Signature

Robert Bannister

Robert Bannister - 24 Nov 2011 22:58 GMT
>> I hope you are all well&  in good spirits.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Hmmm.  Well, I was taught, nearly 40 years ago, to ALWAYS use two
> spaces after a period.

Double spacing didn't really start to go out till the 80s. I too learnt
to type in the 70s with dot space space, but then I bought my first
computer in 1981 and life changed. If you wish to continue living a
70s-style life, you need to buy a typewriter.

Signature

Robert Bannister

R H Draney - 25 Nov 2011 02:19 GMT
Robert Bannister filted:

>Double spacing didn't really start to go out till the 80s. I too learnt
>to type in the 70s with dot space space, but then I bought my first
>computer in 1981 and life changed. If you wish to continue living a
>70s-style life, you need to buy a typewriter.

Fortunately, this is entirely possible:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51QNSGC7Vgw

....r

Signature

Me?  Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

Jared - 25 Nov 2011 03:57 GMT
> Robert Bannister filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> ....r

When I was a kid, there was a surplus IBM typewriter in our household
with military grade matte gray paint, a steel chassis, and belt
drive. I wish it hadn't ended up in the dump, because it was an awesome
machine.

It didn't have a one key, because you were supposed to use 'l'.

When you turned it on, it sounded like a powerful engine idling
"thruMmMmMm..." and if you pressed the shift key, it went "KERCHUNK"
as the innards moved into position. Just touch the keys and they would
go "SNAP SNAP SNAP".

At the end of the line it would go "ding" and you'd touch the carriage
return and the carriage which must have weighed ten pounds by itself
would go "bzzzzzzzzzCHONK". Hopefully your fingers weren't in the way.

People talk about old manual typewriters, but that IBM with "power
everything" is what I find to be the prototype of what a typewriter
should be.

I'm not sure when it was made, but since it had typebars, not a ball,
it must have been before the Selectric. So probably the fifties.

Signature

Jared

R H Draney - 25 Nov 2011 09:38 GMT
Jared filted:

>When I was a kid, there was a surplus IBM typewriter in our household
>with military grade matte gray paint, a steel chassis, and belt
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>I'm not sure when it was made, but since it had typebars, not a ball,
>it must have been before the Selectric. So probably the fifties.

They were using Selectrics in my first "official" typing class, which would have
been around 1973-4...before that I noodled around on my grandmother's old manual
typewriter whose carriage-return "ker-chunk" was exactly as loud as the muscles
of your hand and arm made it...there was no "turned it on"...I think she'd had
it since the fifties, but an early electric typewriter I would date to a good
ten years later....

Grandma's machine *did* have a separate "one" key because it had a script font
whose lower-case "ell" looked nothing like a numeral....r

Signature

Me?  Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

Frank S - 25 Nov 2011 20:07 GMT
> Jared filted:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> font
> whose lower-case "ell" looked nothing like a numeral....r

I always had trouble with electric typewriters. It seemed to me the
"idling-engine" sound was the machine impatiently chuckling at my
ever-so-slow typing strokes, and I'm certain many of my productions would
have been better if I hadn't responded to the pressure by doing something to
quiet the voice.

Signature

Frank ess

Robert Bannister - 25 Nov 2011 23:04 GMT
>> Robert Bannister filted:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> as the innards moved into position. Just touch the keys and they would
> go "SNAP SNAP SNAP".

...and whirr when it stood still.
I never knew just what it was...

Signature

Robert Bannister

Alan Mackenzie - 25 Nov 2011 11:10 GMT
>>> I hope you are all well&  in good spirits.

>>> I am neutral on the opinion expressed in this Slate article -- the
>>> subject line of this post is merely a reflection of the opinion
>>> expressed in the article -- but I would be interested in the thoughts
>>> of our erudite community on this burning issue of our time....

>> Hmmm.  Well, I was taught, nearly 40 years ago, to ALWAYS use two
>> spaces after a period.

> Double spacing didn't really start to go out till the 80s. I too learnt
> to type in the 70s with dot space space, but then I bought my first
> computer in 1981 and life changed. If you wish to continue living a
> 70s-style life, you need to buy a typewriter.

OK, I'll carry on with my 70s-lifestyle (80s, actually).  :-)

Just as a matter of interest, how do "modern" editors manage "goto end of
sentence" in a sentence such as "I 'phoned C.J. about tomorrow's trip. ".
They're surely going to end up in the wrong place, after "C.J." rather
than the proper end of sentence.  This makes a difference for high speed
editing.

Signature

Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

Garrett Wollman - 25 Nov 2011 18:20 GMT
>Just as a matter of interest, how do "modern" editors manage "goto end of
>sentence" in a sentence such as "I 'phoned C.J. about tomorrow's trip. ".
>They're surely going to end up in the wrong place, after "C.J." rather
>than the proper end of sentence.  This makes a difference for high speed
>editing.

Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user
locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the
mouse to the approximate location, and clicks.  (And this even if the
program actually thinks it knows how to do this by itself.)

I'll admit that even in Emacs I use M-A and M-E fairly rarely -- but I
use M-K a lot, and it always irritates me when I'm editing someone
else's text to find that they didn't use sentence spacing so Emacs
ends up killing the whole paragraph.

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

R H Draney - 25 Nov 2011 19:46 GMT
Garrett Wollman filted:

>>Just as a matter of interest, how do "modern" editors manage "goto end of
>>sentence" in a sentence such as "I 'phoned C.J. about tomorrow's trip. ".
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>else's text to find that they didn't use sentence spacing so Emacs
>ends up killing the whole paragraph.

If you could only arrange to have writers paid by the sentence instead of by the
word, and use the Emacs-friendly definition of "sentence" in carrying out the
calculation...bet the single-spacers would straighten up pretty damn quickly
when their submitted 400-word paragraphs generated no more revenue than "Jesus
wept."

....r

Signature

Me?  Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.

Garrett Wollman - 25 Nov 2011 22:38 GMT
>Garrett Wollman filted:
>>I'll admit that even in Emacs I use M-A and M-E fairly rarely -- but I
>>use M-K a lot, and it always irritates me when I'm editing someone
>>else's text to find that they didn't use sentence spacing so Emacs
>>ends up killing the whole paragraph.

>If you could only arrange to have writers paid by the sentence instead of by the
>word,

Strangely enough, the sort of text-editing that I do does not involve
paying the writers.  HIBT?

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

Adam Funk - 27 Nov 2011 12:04 GMT
> Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user
> locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the
> mouse to the approximate location, and clicks.  (And this even if the
> program actually thinks it knows how to do this by itself.)

One of my gripes about a lot of modern software, even on *n*x, is
having to take my hands off the keyboard to move the mouse around
(except for obviously mouse-friendly tasks like graphics editing &
CAD).

> I'll admit that even in Emacs I use M-A and M-E fairly rarely -- but I
> use M-K a lot, and it always irritates me when I'm editing someone
> else's text to find that they didn't use sentence spacing so Emacs
> ends up killing the whole paragraph.

M-x all-hail-emacs

Signature

In the 1970s, people began receiving utility bills for
-£999,999,996.32 and it became harder to sustain the
myth of the infallible electronic brain.  (Stob 2001)

Steve Hayes - 27 Nov 2011 13:51 GMT
>> Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user
>> locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>(except for obviously mouse-friendly tasks like graphics editing &
>CAD).

One of my gripes about modern hardware is that editing tasks that formerly
required two fingers now require two arms.

I am referring to the so-called "Enhanced" ergonomically crippled keyboards
with the function keys on the top, deliberately designed to slow one down and
make work more tiring.

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Leslie Danks - 27 Nov 2011 14:02 GMT
>>> Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user
>>> locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> keyboards with the function keys on the top, deliberately designed to slow
> one down and make work more tiring.

Do you really mean the function keys (F1, F2, etc.)? I have a Tandon
keyboard, which must be nearly 20 years old, with the function keys along
the top. Perhaps you mean <Del>, <Ins>, etc. I presume that these are put at
the top of my laptop keyboard to reduce the necessary width of the device.

Signature

Les
(BrE)

Steve Hayes - 27 Nov 2011 14:35 GMT
>>>> Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user
>>>> locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>the top. Perhaps you mean <Del>, <Ins>, etc. I presume that these are put at
>the top of my laptop keyboard to reduce the necessary width of the device.

Yes, I mean the Function keys, which in all decent keyboards used to be on the
left.

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Leslie Danks - 27 Nov 2011 16:23 GMT
>>>>> Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user
>>>>> locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Yes, I mean the Function keys, which in all decent keyboards used to be on
> the left.

Having looked into the matter, I find that the changeover occurred around
1986 with the invention of IBM's "101-key enhanced keyboard layout":

<http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/stdEnh101-c.html>

The standard keyboard before then had, as you say, the function keys on the
left:

<http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/stdAT84-c.html>

I bought my first PC (an XT with Hercules monitor) in 1985 (approximately).
I no longer remember where the function keys were.

Signature

Les
(BrE)

Adam Funk - 27 Nov 2011 20:41 GMT
>>>> One of my gripes about modern hardware is that editing tasks that
>>>> formerly required two fingers now require two arms.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Having looked into the matter, I find that the changeover occurred around
> 1986 with the invention of IBM's "101-key enhanced keyboard layout":

Aha, that date would explain why the top position of F-keys doesn't
bug me.  I first got F-keys in 1987.

Signature

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

Evan Kirshenbaum - 27 Nov 2011 22:52 GMT
>>>> I am referring to the so-called "Enhanced" ergonomically crippled
>>>> keyboards with the function keys on the top, deliberately
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> I bought my first PC (an XT with Hercules monitor) in 1985
> (approximately).  I no longer remember where the function keys were.

It was earlier than that.  My parents got an Archives CP/M system in
about 1980, and unless I'm misremembering, it had the function keys on
the top row.

I'm pretty sure that WordStar came with a long, thin function key
template that wrapped around the row and told you what functions had
been assigned to each, which implies that it was at least somewhat
standard.  I can't seem to find a picture of that keyboard, but I do
see other pre-MS DOS computers that had such things.

Micro Design:

   http://www.mynewoffice.com/pcmuseum/Morrow401.jpg

Sanyo MBC 1250:

   http://www.qsl.net/k6fv/mbc1250x.jpg

Commodore CBM-II (1982):

   http://www.6502.org/users/sjgray/computer/cbm2/pic-keyboard-us.jpg

and a couple from the cover of the January, 1983, _Byte_:

   http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/qf/c/Byte/1-1983/lrg_cover.jpg

Also, the Heath/Zenith Z-100 terminal (1981):

   http://www.old-computers.com/museum/photos/Zenith_Z100_System_s3.jpg

and Z-19 (1979?):

   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zenith_Z-19_Terminal.jpg

I suspect that if early PC keyboards had them on the left, that was an
innovation, and the switch to the top was a reversion to the de-facto
standard.  

Personally, I've never had much use for function keys other than for
things like display control for laptops.  It's always been easier to
just use control key sequences (especially when the control key is put
where it belongs, next to the "A").

Signature

Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
   Still with HP Labs                 |The bathwater, in this case, does
   SF Bay Area (1982-)                |not appear to ever have contained
   Chicago (1964-1982)                |any baby.
                                      |
   evan.kirshenbaum@gmail.com         |          ronniecat

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Leslie Danks - 27 Nov 2011 23:02 GMT
>>>>> I am referring to the so-called "Enhanced" ergonomically crippled
>>>>> keyboards with the function keys on the top, deliberately
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
> just use control key sequences (especially when the control key is put
> where it belongs, next to the "A").

AOL. I rarely use anything other than a laptop these days and use the
function keys for switching between workspaces--plus from the occasional F1
for help after all else has failed.

Signature

Les
(BrE)

Steve Hayes - 28 Nov 2011 04:22 GMT
>> Having looked into the matter, I find that the changeover occurred
>> around 1986 with the invention of IBM's "101-key enhanced keyboard
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>standard.  I can't seem to find a picture of that keyboard, but I do
>see other pre-MS DOS computers that had such things.

Wordstar used Ctrl-Letter keys for most functions (I forget what they are now,
I haven't used it for a long time)

Pre-MS-DOS computers sometimes had function keys, but there was no standard
for where they were placed or what they were used for.

But the standard 84-key keyboard for MS-DOS computers had software written to
make use of its capabilities, and when editing it was dead easy to define (now
called select) text by line (F4), word (alt-F4), sentence (ctrl F4) or
paragraph (shift F4), just by moving your fingers, and not by moving your
whole hand.

And one could delete text by using F5 in the same way. Hold the Alt key down,
press F5 three times to delete "in respect of" and replace it with "for". Now
you have to jiggle around with the mouse, which takes much longer.

>I suspect that if early PC keyboards had them on the left, that was an
>innovation, and the switch to the top was a reversion to the de-facto
>standard.  

It was, and became a standard almost immediately, and over the next five years
software was written for that standard - five years is quite a long time in
software development terms.

>Personally, I've never had much use for function keys other than for
>things like display control for laptops.  It's always been easier to
>just use control key sequences (especially when the control key is put
>where it belongs, next to the "A").

As in the illustration of the IBM-AT style keyboard illustrated above.

My present keyboard has the Caps Lock key where the Ctrl key should be, and I
often press it by mistake when typing "a" -- another reason why "enhanced"
means "ergonomically challenged".

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Snidely - 28 Nov 2011 07:16 GMT
Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> scribbled something like ...

> My present keyboard has the Caps Lock key where the Ctrl key should
> be, and I often press it by mistake when typing "a" -- another reason
> why "enhanced" means "ergonomically challenged".

The Shift Lock key on the typewriters I've had and trained on was right
where the Caps Lock is now, my fading grey cells tell me.  (I could dig
around in storage to find my old portable, but that won't happen tonight.)

And a very satisfying clunk it was when the Lock was released.

/dps
Garrett Wollman - 28 Nov 2011 16:39 GMT
>Wordstar used Ctrl-Letter keys for most functions (I forget what they are now,
>I haven't used it for a long time)

The cursor keys wer ESDX, with various word and page movement commands
physically close by and in the same relative orientation.  Block
commands were multiple characters, ^KB and ^KE to start and end the
block as I recall.

>Pre-MS-DOS computers sometimes had function keys, but there was no standard
>for where they were placed or what they were used for.

ITYM "Pre-IBM PC computers".  MS-DOS was an operating system, and was
not released under that name until other IBM-compatible PCs came to
market in about 1983.  IBM was responsible for the hardware design,
and the keyboard came from the same manufacturing plant (in Lexington,
Kentucky, IIRC) as other IBM keyboards of the era.

>But the standard 84-key keyboard for MS-DOS computers had software written to
>make use of its capabilities, and when editing it was dead easy to define (now
>called select) text by line (F4), word (alt-F4), sentence (ctrl F4) or
>paragraph (shift F4), just by moving your fingers, and not by moving your
>whole hand.

When editing in which program?  There was more than one, and they all
used function keys differently (to the extent they used them at all).

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

Steve Hayes - 28 Nov 2011 17:32 GMT
>>Wordstar used Ctrl-Letter keys for most functions (I forget what they are now,
>>I haven't used it for a long time)
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>and the keyboard came from the same manufacturing plant (in Lexington,
>Kentucky, IIRC) as other IBM keyboards of the era.

Yup, and IBM called the one they sold with their computers PC DOS, but it
worked in mcuh the same way.

>>But the standard 84-key keyboard for MS-DOS computers had software written to
>>make use of its capabilities, and when editing it was dead easy to define (now
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>When editing in which program?  There was more than one, and they all
>used function keys differently (to the extent they used them at all).

The particular program I used was XyWrite, but others were also designed to
make use of the function keys, like WordPerfect. Also NotaBene, which used the
XyWrite engine, but mapped the finction keys differently.

I can't say what the effecdt was on other programs, but I dio know that when
we began using the ergonomically crippled 101-key keyboards, work slowed down,
was more tiring, and people got more short-tempered, and several keyboards had
to be replaced because people pounded them with their fists in frustration at
the inmcredibly stupidly designed equipment that forced them to do it the hard
way when they had already learned to do it the easy way.

There was one manufacturer, NorthStar, that made keyboards with function keys
both at the side and along the top, but they were expensive, and would have
had to be specially imported, so  our bosses wouldn't buy them and probably a
lot of other people's bosses wouldn't either, so they went out of business,
but if  could get one today I'd be willing to pay three or even five times the
price of the average keyboard to get one.

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Snidely - 28 Nov 2011 18:53 GMT
Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> scribbled something like ...

> There was one manufacturer, NorthStar, that made keyboards with
> function keys both at the side and along the top, but they were
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> be willing to pay three or even five times the price of the average
> keyboard to get one.

Gateway had top+side function keys in the mid-to-late '90s (for US
deliveries, at least), and I kept one of those for a long time (needing
fat-to-thin adapter plugs) because other keyboards made me feel my left
hand was going to fall over the side.

/dps "(spare parens here)"
Robert Bannister - 29 Nov 2011 01:00 GMT
>>> Having looked into the matter, I find that the changeover occurred
>>> around 1986 with the invention of IBM's "101-key enhanced keyboard
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Pre-MS-DOS computers sometimes had function keys, but there was no standard
> for where they were placed or what they were used for.

In all the thirty years I have owned computers, I have never used a
function key for anything at all. There was always a 2-key workaround
that suited my fingers better.

Signature

Robert Bannister

tony cooper - 28 Nov 2011 05:30 GMT
>>>>> I am referring to the so-called "Enhanced" ergonomically crippled
>>>>> keyboards with the function keys on the top, deliberately
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>standard.  I can't seem to find a picture of that keyboard, but I do
>see other pre-MS DOS computers that had such things.

I also had an Archives computer, and WordStar, and remember those
template things that fit over the function keys.  However, I don't
remember the layout of the keyboard.

Here is a template like the one I had, but not one for WordStar
http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthread.php?15427-Function-Key-Template

Signature

Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

Garrett Wollman - 27 Nov 2011 19:12 GMT
>One of my gripes about modern hardware is that editing tasks that formerly
>required two fingers now require two arms.
>
>I am referring to the so-called "Enhanced" ergonomically crippled keyboards
>with the function keys on the top, deliberately designed to slow one down and
>make work more tiring.

Why would that matter?  It's not like they do anything useful.

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman    | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft
wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program
Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption
my employers.         | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993

Steve Hayes - 28 Nov 2011 05:10 GMT
>>One of my gripes about modern hardware is that editing tasks that formerly
>>required two fingers now require two arms.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>Why would that matter?  It's not like they do anything useful.

But the standard 84-key keyboard for MS-DOS computers had software written to
make use of its capabilities, and when editing it was dead easy to define (now
called select) text by line (F4), word (alt-F4), sentence (ctrl F4) or
paragraph (shift F4), just by moving your fingers, and not by moving your
whole hand.

And one could delete text by using F5 in the same way. Hold the Alt key down,
press F5 three times to delete "in respect of" and replace it with "for". Now
you have to jiggle around with the mouse, which takes much longer.

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Robert Bannister - 29 Nov 2011 00:56 GMT
>>> Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user
>>> locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> with the function keys on the top, deliberately designed to slow one down and
> make work more tiring.

In addition to that, last year, for the very first time, I had taught
myself to use the number keypad, but then, when I bought my new
computer(1), it came with a tiny(2) keyboard with no numerical pad at all.

1. Really just an update. It's still an iMac just like before, but with
more whistles.

2. So tiny, I've had to relearn my touch-typing and still make mistakes
now and then. I imagine this is the same as the keyboard in the laptops.

Signature

Robert Bannister

Adam Funk - 29 Nov 2011 13:10 GMT
> In addition to that, last year, for the very first time, I had taught
> myself to use the number keypad, but then, when I bought my new
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> 2. So tiny, I've had to relearn my touch-typing and still make mistakes
> now and then. I imagine this is the same as the keyboard in the laptops.

It's been bugging me for a while that my laptop keyboard doesn't have
a separate num pad (you can turn part of the keyboard into a num pad,
but you lose a bunch of other things while it's switched that way).

So I've been trying out a Hama 2in1 USB mouse and num pad (the latter
is covered by a hinged lid that you can flip up --- you can even use
the mouse with the lid up, although it's a little easier to hit the
num keys by accident).  Unfortunately it interferes with the num lock
function on the main keyboard, and I haven't figured out how to get
them to work separately.

Signature

History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of
urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure.
                                                (Thurgood Marshall)

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2012 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.