Never EVER use two spaces after a period!
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Berkeley Brett - 23 Nov 2011 19:54 GMT I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
I am neutral on the opinion expressed in this Slate article -- the subject line of this post is merely a reflection of the opinion expressed in the article -- but I would be interested in the thoughts of our erudite community on this burning issue of our time....
Page 1: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.html
Page 2: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/01/space_invaders.2.html
=== begin quoted text ===
Space Invaders Why you should never, ever use two spaces after a period.
By Farhad Manjoo (Jan. 13, 2011)
Can I let you in on a secret? Typing two spaces after a period is totally, completely, utterly, and inarguably wrong.
And yet people who use two spaces are everywhere, their ugly error crossing every social boundary of class, education, and taste.... You'd expect, for instance, that anyone savvy enough to read Slate would know the proper rules of typing, but you'd be wrong; every third e-mail I get from readers includes the two-space error. (In editing letters for "Dear Farhad," my occasional tech-advice column, I've removed enough extra spaces to fill my forthcoming volume of melancholy epic poetry, The Emptiness Within.) The public relations profession is similarly ignorant; I've received press releases and correspondence from the biggest companies in the world that are riddled with extra spaces. Some of my best friends are irredeemable two spacers, too, and even my wife has been known to use an unnecessary extra space every now and then (though she points out that she does so only when writing to other two-spacers, just to make them happy).
What galls me about two-spacers isn't just their numbers. It's their certainty that they're right. Over Thanksgiving dinner last year, I asked people what they considered to be the "correct" number of spaces between sentences. The diners included doctors, computer programmers, and other highly accomplished professionals. Everyone—everyone!—said it was proper to use two spaces. Some people admitted to slipping sometimes and using a single space—but when writing something formal, they were always careful to use two. Others explained they mostly used a single space but felt guilty for violating the two-space "rule." Still others said they used two spaces all the time, and they were thrilled to be so proper. When I pointed out that they were doing it wrong—that, in fact, the correct way to end a sentence is with a period followed by a single, proud, beautiful space—the table balked. "Who says two spaces is wrong?" they wanted to know.... [much more in the article]
=== end quoted text ===
Thanks in advance for any thoughts you may choose to share.
And Happy Thanksgiving to those celebrating that holiday. (A bonus dynamic Thanksgiving card at this link; simply click the little hat to "start the show"! http://www.jacquielawson.com/viewcard.asp?code=WQ26144948 )
-- Brett (in Berkeley, California, USA) http://www.ForeverFunds.org/ My plan for erasing poverty from the world with micro-endowments that "give" forever into the future
Berkeley Brett - 23 Nov 2011 19:55 GMT (How two copies of this post occurred with one mouse-click is a mystery to me!)
David Hatunen - 23 Nov 2011 22:49 GMT > (How two copies of this post occurred with one mouse-click is a mystery > to me!) Oh, dear. Do be careful it doesn't make two spaces after a period.
 Signature Dave Hatunen, Tucson, Baja Arizona
Glenn Knickerbocker - 28 Nov 2011 18:24 GMT >> (How two copies of this post occurred with one mouse-click is a mystery >> to me!) >Oh, dear. Do be careful it doesn't make two spaces after a period. welcome. datacomp
Skitt - 23 Nov 2011 20:05 GMT > I hope you are all well& in good spirits. > [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > My plan for erasing poverty from the world with micro-endowments that > "give" forever into the future See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing
I usually use two spaces when posting with a monospaced font, as I do on AUE. I learned to do that when using a typewriter.
By the way, this issue has been discussed in AUE before, and as one might expect, opinions vary.
 Signature Skitt (SF Bay Area) http://come.to/skitt
Duggy - 23 Nov 2011 20:24 GMT > > I hope you are all well& in good spirits. > [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > By the way, this issue has been discussed in AUE before, and as one > might expect, opinions vary. I love that the writer was upset not that two-spacers did it, but that they were so sure they were right... and was so certain that (s)he was right.
=== = DUG. ===
Duggy - 23 Nov 2011 22:07 GMT > > > I hope you are all well& in good spirits. > [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > they were so sure they were right... and was so certain that (s)he was > right. Also... editing spaces out of readers letters... it's a small thing, but should any editing of letters be done at all (except were noted for space, to remove offensive material, etc)?
=== = DUG. ===
Adam Funk - 27 Nov 2011 12:02 GMT > See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing > > I usually use two spaces when posting with a monospaced font, as I do on > AUE. I learned to do that when using a typewriter. Same here.
> By the way, this issue has been discussed in AUE before, and as one > might expect, opinions vary. Yes, but the militancy of the opinions still surprises me a bit.
 Signature A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
rwalker - 24 Nov 2011 05:29 GMT >I hope you are all well & in good spirits. > >I am neutral on the opinion expressed in this Slate article -- the >subject line of this post is merely a reflection of the opinion >expressed in the article -- but I would be interested in the thoughts >of our erudite community on this burning issue of our time.... Hmmm. Well, I was taught, nearly 40 years ago, to ALWAYS use two spaces after a period.
Alan Mackenzie - 24 Nov 2011 18:05 GMT >>I hope you are all well & in good spirits.
>>I am neutral on the opinion expressed in this Slate article -- the >>subject line of this post is merely a reflection of the opinion >>expressed in the article -- but I would be interested in the thoughts >>of our erudite community on this burning issue of our time....
> Hmmm. Well, I was taught, nearly 40 years ago, to ALWAYS use two > spaces after a period. I was taught to use two spaces after a full stop. There's actually a good reason in modern times for this - it enables an editor program (e.g. Emacs) easily to distinguish between the end of a sentence and an abbreviation within one.
 Signature Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Sproz - 24 Nov 2011 18:24 GMT > >>I hope you are all well & in good spirits. > >>I am neutral on the opinion expressed in this Slate article -- the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -- > Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). One very popular editor (embedded in the BlackBerry handset range) auto-replaces two spaces as a full-stop and a space, providing a good reason in modern times to drop the habit. Double-spacing also screws up spacing algorithms in some typesetting tools, especially in left- and-right justified text. And HTML ignores repeated "white-space" by definition, so the majority of internet text appears with single- spaced sentences, to no obvious consternation from its hundreds if not thousands of readers.
Mark
Mark Brader - 24 Nov 2011 19:01 GMT Mark Sproson:
> Double-spacing also screws up spacing algorithms in some typesetting > tools, especially in left-and-right justified text. Better-designed tools, such as TeX and troff, treat it correctly.
> And HTML ignores repeated "white-space" by definition, so the majority > of internet text appears with single-spaced sentences, Worse yet, it does not support any form of markup for sentences, thus going against its own philosophy of leaving formatting decisions in the reader's hands. One reason why web pages are so much less legible than documents formatted by troff.
 Signature Mark Brader | You obviously aren't aware of the new definition for "all". Toronto | Do try to keep up. msb@vex.net | --Charles Bishop
Sproz - 24 Nov 2011 20:03 GMT > Mark Sproson: > > > Double-spacing also screws up spacing algorithms in some typesetting > > tools, especially in left-and-right justified text. > > Better-designed tools, such as TeX and troff, treat it correctly. Well, then it may be no coincidence that the only book I've managed to find on my shelves that consistently double-spaces sentences is an old K&R C Programming Language. All the others have no discernible difference between word and sentence spacing. Most such tools used in the book-publishing world appear to treat double spaces as single spaces.
If double-spacing sentences really did result in more legible text, how would we ever know?
Mark
Anton Shepelev - 24 Nov 2011 20:35 GMT Mark Brader:
> Mark Sproson: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Better-designed tools, such as TeX and troff, > treat it correctly. Not only that, but they also provide for special end-of-sentence formatting. For example, troff treated every source line ending with '.', '?', '!' or '...' as the end of a sentence and automatically doubled the following space.
GNU troff has a setting called sentence space that defines whether, and how, to increase the space af- ter sentences, and upon encountering a double space after one of the aforementioned symbols it treats them accordingly, so that the spacing of an entire book can be changed via a singe setting.
Speaking of WYSIWYG, neither PageMaker's nor InDe- sign's justification algorithms can be "screwd up" by a double space. They just treat it as is.
Sproz:
> Well, then it may be no coincidence that the only > book I've managed to find on my shelves that con- > sistently double-spaces sentences is an old K&R C > Programming Language. Did you know it was typeset using troff?
> If double-spacing sentences really did result in > more legible text, how would we ever know? I have experimented with it and found it reasonable. Every element in text has its own separation. The smallest one -- the word -- is separated by a single space; the next larger element -- the sentence -- by a wider space, which is 1.5-2.0 times the interword space; the paragraph -- by either a vertical space or an indent of the first line, or by a combination of both, and so on.
Anton
Sproz - 24 Nov 2011 20:49 GMT > Mark Brader: > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > them accordingly, so that the spacing of an entire > book can be changed via a singe setting. I'd expect as much.
> Speaking of WYSIWYG, neither PageMaker's nor InDe- > sign's justification algorithms can be "screwd up" [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Did you know it was typeset using troff? That's what I was getting at. Brian Kernighan (the K in K&R) rewrote troff for Unix.
> > If double-spacing sentences really did result in > > more legible text, how would we ever know? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > or an indent of the first line, or by a combination > of both, and so on. It may be that book designers carefully adjust the inter-sentence spacing until they hit upon the perfect proportion for optimum legibility. If so, then the proportion they arrive at is indistiguishable to the naked eye from 1:1, assuming my straw poll of books on my shelf is anything to go by then.
Either the world is full of less-than-optimally legible books and most of us don't know what we're missing, or the idea that double-spacing sentences improves legibility is only true for those people who believe that double-spacing sentences improves legibility.
Mark
Jerry Friedman - 25 Nov 2011 14:55 GMT > > Mark Brader: > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > > If double-spacing sentences really did result in > > > more legible text, how would we ever know? Studies have been done, and perhaps unsurprisingly, were inconclusive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing#Studies
I didn't see a reference there to any studies with 3/2 or 4/3 (the default in TeX) of an interword space between sentences, which is what really needs to be tested. They just used double and triple.
> > I have experimented with it and found it reasonable. > > Every element in text has its own separation. The [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > indistiguishable to the naked eye from 1:1, assuming my straw poll of > books on my shelf is anything to go by then. Yes, it's been standard for some decades to use exactly 1:1, although it seems to be based more on type designers' taste and fashion, and maybe on saving paper and saving themselves work, than on any optimum of legibility.
> Either the world is full of less-than-optimally legible books and most > of us don't know what we're missing, or the idea that double-spacing > sentences improves legibility is only true for those people who > believe that double-spacing sentences improves legibility. Or vice-versa. There's certainly no empirical support for the sort of "Never EVER use two spaces" commandment that Brett quoted in the OP.
I generally don't notice sentence spacing. When I do, it's when the space after an abbreviation jars me because it looks like the space after a sentence. In this case the supposedly optimal interword- intersentence space after a period is too big between words. An excellent example is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MissingNo.
-- Jerry Friedman
Anton Shepelev - 27 Nov 2011 13:57 GMT You may call this an ad hominem, but I didn't like the way the article in the original post is written.
When the author says that
Every major style guide -- including the Modern Language Association Style Manual and the Chicago Manual of Style -- prescribes a single space after a period.
even providing the corresponding links, he is not being sincere. According to one of the links, the MLA is in fact quite neutral:
Because it is increasingly common for papers and manuscripts to be prepared with a single space after all punctuation marks, this spacing is shown in the examples in the MLA Handbook and the MLA Style Manual. As a practical matter, however, there is nothing wrong with using two spaces after concluding punctuation marks unless an instructor or editor requests that you do otherwise.
Furthermore, they give no rational arguments and ex- plain their viewpoint by the need to reflect the common usage!
The other reference, to the Chicago Manual of Style, is actually to a Q&A section at their site, in which the very style of the reply emphasizes its being just a personal opinion and not the official recom- mendation of CMOS:
The view at [Anton -- sic!) CMOS is that there is no reason for two spaces after a period in published work. [...] So, in our efficient, modern world, I think there is no room for two spaces after a pe- riod. In the opinion of this particular copyeditor, this is a good thing.
Neither can this mild tone be said to be "prescrib- ing".
Most of the arguments listed in CMOS's Q&A (and cor- responsing with those of other single-spacers) ap- peal to technical difficulties like problems with software and the inefficiency of the typist's work, but these must never be taken into account because a book is typset once, but read millions of times; and the only acceptable argument is the lack of evidence as to which way is better.
As Wikipedia says here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing
the real CMOS used increased sentence spacing as re- cently as in 1969, but had switched to single spac- ing by 2003 (and I wonder want went on in between).
An assumption seems to prevail that the only alter- native to single spacing is literally to use two spaces (by pressing the spacebar twice), while in modern proportional typesetting the sentence space can automatically be made, say, 1.4 times the inter- word space, using software's end-of-sentence detec- tion algorithms (not necessarily the same as Emacs's).
Another argument is "distracting gaps" caused by in- creased sentence spacing. But those gaps are only noticeable when looking at a printed page, its text and its letters from an aesthetical point of view, while when reading this negative effect disappears.
The only interesting reference in the original arti- cle is this one:
http://www.creativepro.com/article/double-space-or-not-double-space
but again, its authour is not an active proponent of single spacing.
Sproz:
> It may be that book designers carefully adjust the > inter-sentence spacing until they hit upon the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > straw poll of books on my shelf is anything to go > by then. Some of them don't care, some can't make it with their software, some excuse themselves by referring to the above arguments and some have a sincere (and I don't say wrong) conviction that single spacing is better.
> Either the world is full of less-than-optimally > legible books and most of us don't know what we're > missing, or the idea that double-spacing sentences > improves legibility is only true for those people > who believe that double-spacing sentences improves > legibility. Our world is certainly an imperfect one. I can only ask about your own opinion from comparing your edi- tion of K&R and any other book.
Anton
P.S.: I can't agree with the view that monospace fonts look ugly. I was a big fan of the VTBulletin typewriter-style font and typeset in it not only my cumbersome assembly pro- gramms at the university:
http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/5971/vtbulletin.png
but also complete English texts.
Sproz - 27 Nov 2011 15:25 GMT > Sproz: > > Either the world is full of less-than-optimally [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ask about your own opinion from comparing your edi- > tion of K&R and any other book. I find it impossible to judge. The mechanical process of reading is a subconscious activity; anything that makes one aware of the actual type on the page breaks the spell. But if I try to monitor my own reading experience the spell is already broken. If anyone's so dogmatic about double spacing that they consciously notice every single-spaced sentence, they must be having a miserable time.
However, I don't believe there is some Platonic ideal of sentence spacing. If you've been reading single-spaced sentences all your life, then double-spaced ones look odd. It could very well be that in a parallel universe where typographic conventions are different we read, on average, slightly faster or with greater comprehension. But in this one, the most legible text probably looks a lot like most of the rest of the text we read.
Mark
Garrett Wollman - 27 Nov 2011 19:10 GMT >However, I don't believe there is some Platonic ideal of sentence >spacing. It probably makes very little difference in a monospaced typeface, because the punctuation marks themselves include extra whitespace. In typeset text, however, you would expect the inter-sentence space to stretch more, and compress less, than than the inter-word space. This is in fact what TeX does. (If you think text looks natural with very large inter-word or even letter spacing, you've been spending too much time reading newspapers.)
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Adam Funk - 29 Nov 2011 13:08 GMT >>However, I don't believe there is some Platonic ideal of sentence >>spacing. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > large inter-word or even letter spacing, you've been spending too much > time reading newspapers.) But there are people today who are militantly opposed to having inter-sentence spacing any wider than inter-word spacing (on the same line, that is). This is one of the crazy reasons that Peter T. Daniels hates TeX.
 Signature svn ci -m 'come back make, all is forgiven!' build.xml
Anton Shepelev - 29 Nov 2011 14:56 GMT Adam Funk:
> But there are people today who are militantly op- > posed to having inter-sentence spacing any wider > than inter-word spacing (on the same line, that > is). This is one of the crazy reasons that Peter > T. Daniels hates TeX. Isn't it configurable in TeX?
Anton
Garrett Wollman - 29 Nov 2011 16:49 GMT >But there are people today who are militantly opposed to having >inter-sentence spacing any wider than inter-word spacing (on the same >line, that is). This is one of the crazy reasons that Peter >T. Daniels hates TeX. Given the choice between Knuth and Daniels, I know which side I'm on.
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Robert Bannister - 24 Nov 2011 23:01 GMT >> Mark Sproson: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If double-spacing sentences really did result in more legible text, > how would we ever know? Some books that I buy these days have such small full stops that only the following capital letter indicates a new sentence. If the sentence begins with a name, I sometimes have to check to make sense of the text. I doubt larger spaces would help much.
 Signature Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister - 24 Nov 2011 22:58 GMT >> I hope you are all well& in good spirits. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Hmmm. Well, I was taught, nearly 40 years ago, to ALWAYS use two > spaces after a period. Double spacing didn't really start to go out till the 80s. I too learnt to type in the 70s with dot space space, but then I bought my first computer in 1981 and life changed. If you wish to continue living a 70s-style life, you need to buy a typewriter.
 Signature Robert Bannister
R H Draney - 25 Nov 2011 02:19 GMT Robert Bannister filted:
>Double spacing didn't really start to go out till the 80s. I too learnt >to type in the 70s with dot space space, but then I bought my first >computer in 1981 and life changed. If you wish to continue living a >70s-style life, you need to buy a typewriter. Fortunately, this is entirely possible:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51QNSGC7Vgw
....r
 Signature Me? Sarcastic? Yeah, right.
Jared - 25 Nov 2011 03:57 GMT > Robert Bannister filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > ....r When I was a kid, there was a surplus IBM typewriter in our household with military grade matte gray paint, a steel chassis, and belt drive. I wish it hadn't ended up in the dump, because it was an awesome machine.
It didn't have a one key, because you were supposed to use 'l'.
When you turned it on, it sounded like a powerful engine idling "thruMmMmMm..." and if you pressed the shift key, it went "KERCHUNK" as the innards moved into position. Just touch the keys and they would go "SNAP SNAP SNAP".
At the end of the line it would go "ding" and you'd touch the carriage return and the carriage which must have weighed ten pounds by itself would go "bzzzzzzzzzCHONK". Hopefully your fingers weren't in the way.
People talk about old manual typewriters, but that IBM with "power everything" is what I find to be the prototype of what a typewriter should be.
I'm not sure when it was made, but since it had typebars, not a ball, it must have been before the Selectric. So probably the fifties.
 Signature Jared
R H Draney - 25 Nov 2011 09:38 GMT Jared filted:
>When I was a kid, there was a surplus IBM typewriter in our household >with military grade matte gray paint, a steel chassis, and belt [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >I'm not sure when it was made, but since it had typebars, not a ball, >it must have been before the Selectric. So probably the fifties. They were using Selectrics in my first "official" typing class, which would have been around 1973-4...before that I noodled around on my grandmother's old manual typewriter whose carriage-return "ker-chunk" was exactly as loud as the muscles of your hand and arm made it...there was no "turned it on"...I think she'd had it since the fifties, but an early electric typewriter I would date to a good ten years later....
Grandma's machine *did* have a separate "one" key because it had a script font whose lower-case "ell" looked nothing like a numeral....r
 Signature Me? Sarcastic? Yeah, right.
Frank S - 25 Nov 2011 20:07 GMT > Jared filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > font > whose lower-case "ell" looked nothing like a numeral....r I always had trouble with electric typewriters. It seemed to me the "idling-engine" sound was the machine impatiently chuckling at my ever-so-slow typing strokes, and I'm certain many of my productions would have been better if I hadn't responded to the pressure by doing something to quiet the voice.
 Signature Frank ess
Robert Bannister - 25 Nov 2011 23:04 GMT >> Robert Bannister filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > as the innards moved into position. Just touch the keys and they would > go "SNAP SNAP SNAP". ...and whirr when it stood still. I never knew just what it was...
 Signature Robert Bannister
Alan Mackenzie - 25 Nov 2011 11:10 GMT >>> I hope you are all well& in good spirits.
>>> I am neutral on the opinion expressed in this Slate article -- the >>> subject line of this post is merely a reflection of the opinion >>> expressed in the article -- but I would be interested in the thoughts >>> of our erudite community on this burning issue of our time....
>> Hmmm. Well, I was taught, nearly 40 years ago, to ALWAYS use two >> spaces after a period.
> Double spacing didn't really start to go out till the 80s. I too learnt > to type in the 70s with dot space space, but then I bought my first > computer in 1981 and life changed. If you wish to continue living a > 70s-style life, you need to buy a typewriter. OK, I'll carry on with my 70s-lifestyle (80s, actually). :-)
Just as a matter of interest, how do "modern" editors manage "goto end of sentence" in a sentence such as "I 'phoned C.J. about tomorrow's trip. ". They're surely going to end up in the wrong place, after "C.J." rather than the proper end of sentence. This makes a difference for high speed editing.
 Signature Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
Garrett Wollman - 25 Nov 2011 18:20 GMT >Just as a matter of interest, how do "modern" editors manage "goto end of >sentence" in a sentence such as "I 'phoned C.J. about tomorrow's trip. ". >They're surely going to end up in the wrong place, after "C.J." rather >than the proper end of sentence. This makes a difference for high speed >editing. Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the mouse to the approximate location, and clicks. (And this even if the program actually thinks it knows how to do this by itself.)
I'll admit that even in Emacs I use M-A and M-E fairly rarely -- but I use M-K a lot, and it always irritates me when I'm editing someone else's text to find that they didn't use sentence spacing so Emacs ends up killing the whole paragraph.
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
R H Draney - 25 Nov 2011 19:46 GMT Garrett Wollman filted:
>>Just as a matter of interest, how do "modern" editors manage "goto end of >>sentence" in a sentence such as "I 'phoned C.J. about tomorrow's trip. ". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >else's text to find that they didn't use sentence spacing so Emacs >ends up killing the whole paragraph. If you could only arrange to have writers paid by the sentence instead of by the word, and use the Emacs-friendly definition of "sentence" in carrying out the calculation...bet the single-spacers would straighten up pretty damn quickly when their submitted 400-word paragraphs generated no more revenue than "Jesus wept."
....r
 Signature Me? Sarcastic? Yeah, right.
Garrett Wollman - 25 Nov 2011 22:38 GMT >Garrett Wollman filted: >>I'll admit that even in Emacs I use M-A and M-E fairly rarely -- but I >>use M-K a lot, and it always irritates me when I'm editing someone >>else's text to find that they didn't use sentence spacing so Emacs >>ends up killing the whole paragraph.
>If you could only arrange to have writers paid by the sentence instead of by the >word, Strangely enough, the sort of text-editing that I do does not involve paying the writers. HIBT?
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Adam Funk - 27 Nov 2011 12:04 GMT > Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user > locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the > mouse to the approximate location, and clicks. (And this even if the > program actually thinks it knows how to do this by itself.) One of my gripes about a lot of modern software, even on *n*x, is having to take my hands off the keyboard to move the mouse around (except for obviously mouse-friendly tasks like graphics editing & CAD).
> I'll admit that even in Emacs I use M-A and M-E fairly rarely -- but I > use M-K a lot, and it always irritates me when I'm editing someone > else's text to find that they didn't use sentence spacing so Emacs > ends up killing the whole paragraph. M-x all-hail-emacs
 Signature In the 1970s, people began receiving utility bills for -£999,999,996.32 and it became harder to sustain the myth of the infallible electronic brain. (Stob 2001)
Steve Hayes - 27 Nov 2011 13:51 GMT >> Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user >> locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >(except for obviously mouse-friendly tasks like graphics editing & >CAD). One of my gripes about modern hardware is that editing tasks that formerly required two fingers now require two arms.
I am referring to the so-called "Enhanced" ergonomically crippled keyboards with the function keys on the top, deliberately designed to slow one down and make work more tiring.
 Signature Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Leslie Danks - 27 Nov 2011 14:02 GMT >>> Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user >>> locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > keyboards with the function keys on the top, deliberately designed to slow > one down and make work more tiring. Do you really mean the function keys (F1, F2, etc.)? I have a Tandon keyboard, which must be nearly 20 years old, with the function keys along the top. Perhaps you mean <Del>, <Ins>, etc. I presume that these are put at the top of my laptop keyboard to reduce the necessary width of the device.
 Signature Les (BrE)
Steve Hayes - 27 Nov 2011 14:35 GMT >>>> Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user >>>> locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >the top. Perhaps you mean <Del>, <Ins>, etc. I presume that these are put at >the top of my laptop keyboard to reduce the necessary width of the device. Yes, I mean the Function keys, which in all decent keyboards used to be on the left.
 Signature Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Leslie Danks - 27 Nov 2011 16:23 GMT >>>>> Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user >>>>> locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Yes, I mean the Function keys, which in all decent keyboards used to be on > the left. Having looked into the matter, I find that the changeover occurred around 1986 with the invention of IBM's "101-key enhanced keyboard layout":
<http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/stdEnh101-c.html>
The standard keyboard before then had, as you say, the function keys on the left:
<http://www.pcguide.com/ref/kb/layout/stdAT84-c.html>
I bought my first PC (an XT with Hercules monitor) in 1985 (approximately). I no longer remember where the function keys were.
 Signature Les (BrE)
Adam Funk - 27 Nov 2011 20:41 GMT >>>> One of my gripes about modern hardware is that editing tasks that >>>> formerly required two fingers now require two arms. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Having looked into the matter, I find that the changeover occurred around > 1986 with the invention of IBM's "101-key enhanced keyboard layout": Aha, that date would explain why the top position of F-keys doesn't bug me. I first got F-keys in 1987.
 Signature A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?
Evan Kirshenbaum - 27 Nov 2011 22:52 GMT >>>> I am referring to the so-called "Enhanced" ergonomically crippled >>>> keyboards with the function keys on the top, deliberately [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > I bought my first PC (an XT with Hercules monitor) in 1985 > (approximately). I no longer remember where the function keys were. It was earlier than that. My parents got an Archives CP/M system in about 1980, and unless I'm misremembering, it had the function keys on the top row.
I'm pretty sure that WordStar came with a long, thin function key template that wrapped around the row and told you what functions had been assigned to each, which implies that it was at least somewhat standard. I can't seem to find a picture of that keyboard, but I do see other pre-MS DOS computers that had such things.
Micro Design:
http://www.mynewoffice.com/pcmuseum/Morrow401.jpg
Sanyo MBC 1250:
http://www.qsl.net/k6fv/mbc1250x.jpg
Commodore CBM-II (1982):
http://www.6502.org/users/sjgray/computer/cbm2/pic-keyboard-us.jpg
and a couple from the cover of the January, 1983, _Byte_:
http://blog.modernmechanix.com/mags/qf/c/Byte/1-1983/lrg_cover.jpg
Also, the Heath/Zenith Z-100 terminal (1981):
http://www.old-computers.com/museum/photos/Zenith_Z100_System_s3.jpg
and Z-19 (1979?):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zenith_Z-19_Terminal.jpg
I suspect that if early PC keyboards had them on the left, that was an innovation, and the switch to the top was a reversion to the de-facto standard.
Personally, I've never had much use for function keys other than for things like display control for laptops. It's always been easier to just use control key sequences (especially when the control key is put where it belongs, next to the "A").
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ Still with HP Labs |The bathwater, in this case, does SF Bay Area (1982-) |not appear to ever have contained Chicago (1964-1982) |any baby. | evan.kirshenbaum@gmail.com | ronniecat
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Leslie Danks - 27 Nov 2011 23:02 GMT >>>>> I am referring to the so-called "Enhanced" ergonomically crippled >>>>> keyboards with the function keys on the top, deliberately [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] > just use control key sequences (especially when the control key is put > where it belongs, next to the "A"). AOL. I rarely use anything other than a laptop these days and use the function keys for switching between workspaces--plus from the occasional F1 for help after all else has failed.
 Signature Les (BrE)
Steve Hayes - 28 Nov 2011 04:22 GMT >> Having looked into the matter, I find that the changeover occurred >> around 1986 with the invention of IBM's "101-key enhanced keyboard [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >standard. I can't seem to find a picture of that keyboard, but I do >see other pre-MS DOS computers that had such things. Wordstar used Ctrl-Letter keys for most functions (I forget what they are now, I haven't used it for a long time)
Pre-MS-DOS computers sometimes had function keys, but there was no standard for where they were placed or what they were used for.
But the standard 84-key keyboard for MS-DOS computers had software written to make use of its capabilities, and when editing it was dead easy to define (now called select) text by line (F4), word (alt-F4), sentence (ctrl F4) or paragraph (shift F4), just by moving your fingers, and not by moving your whole hand.
And one could delete text by using F5 in the same way. Hold the Alt key down, press F5 three times to delete "in respect of" and replace it with "for". Now you have to jiggle around with the mouse, which takes much longer.
>I suspect that if early PC keyboards had them on the left, that was an >innovation, and the switch to the top was a reversion to the de-facto >standard. It was, and became a standard almost immediately, and over the next five years software was written for that standard - five years is quite a long time in software development terms.
>Personally, I've never had much use for function keys other than for >things like display control for laptops. It's always been easier to >just use control key sequences (especially when the control key is put >where it belongs, next to the "A"). As in the illustration of the IBM-AT style keyboard illustrated above.
My present keyboard has the Caps Lock key where the Ctrl key should be, and I often press it by mistake when typing "a" -- another reason why "enhanced" means "ergonomically challenged".
 Signature Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Snidely - 28 Nov 2011 07:16 GMT Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> scribbled something like ...
> My present keyboard has the Caps Lock key where the Ctrl key should > be, and I often press it by mistake when typing "a" -- another reason > why "enhanced" means "ergonomically challenged". The Shift Lock key on the typewriters I've had and trained on was right where the Caps Lock is now, my fading grey cells tell me. (I could dig around in storage to find my old portable, but that won't happen tonight.)
And a very satisfying clunk it was when the Lock was released.
/dps
Garrett Wollman - 28 Nov 2011 16:39 GMT >Wordstar used Ctrl-Letter keys for most functions (I forget what they are now, >I haven't used it for a long time) The cursor keys wer ESDX, with various word and page movement commands physically close by and in the same relative orientation. Block commands were multiple characters, ^KB and ^KE to start and end the block as I recall.
>Pre-MS-DOS computers sometimes had function keys, but there was no standard >for where they were placed or what they were used for. ITYM "Pre-IBM PC computers". MS-DOS was an operating system, and was not released under that name until other IBM-compatible PCs came to market in about 1983. IBM was responsible for the hardware design, and the keyboard came from the same manufacturing plant (in Lexington, Kentucky, IIRC) as other IBM keyboards of the era.
>But the standard 84-key keyboard for MS-DOS computers had software written to >make use of its capabilities, and when editing it was dead easy to define (now >called select) text by line (F4), word (alt-F4), sentence (ctrl F4) or >paragraph (shift F4), just by moving your fingers, and not by moving your >whole hand. When editing in which program? There was more than one, and they all used function keys differently (to the extent they used them at all).
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Steve Hayes - 28 Nov 2011 17:32 GMT >>Wordstar used Ctrl-Letter keys for most functions (I forget what they are now, >>I haven't used it for a long time) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >and the keyboard came from the same manufacturing plant (in Lexington, >Kentucky, IIRC) as other IBM keyboards of the era. Yup, and IBM called the one they sold with their computers PC DOS, but it worked in mcuh the same way.
>>But the standard 84-key keyboard for MS-DOS computers had software written to >>make use of its capabilities, and when editing it was dead easy to define (now [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >When editing in which program? There was more than one, and they all >used function keys differently (to the extent they used them at all). The particular program I used was XyWrite, but others were also designed to make use of the function keys, like WordPerfect. Also NotaBene, which used the XyWrite engine, but mapped the finction keys differently.
I can't say what the effecdt was on other programs, but I dio know that when we began using the ergonomically crippled 101-key keyboards, work slowed down, was more tiring, and people got more short-tempered, and several keyboards had to be replaced because people pounded them with their fists in frustration at the inmcredibly stupidly designed equipment that forced them to do it the hard way when they had already learned to do it the easy way.
There was one manufacturer, NorthStar, that made keyboards with function keys both at the side and along the top, but they were expensive, and would have had to be specially imported, so our bosses wouldn't buy them and probably a lot of other people's bosses wouldn't either, so they went out of business, but if could get one today I'd be willing to pay three or even five times the price of the average keyboard to get one.
 Signature Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Snidely - 28 Nov 2011 18:53 GMT Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> scribbled something like ...
> There was one manufacturer, NorthStar, that made keyboards with > function keys both at the side and along the top, but they were [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > be willing to pay three or even five times the price of the average > keyboard to get one. Gateway had top+side function keys in the mid-to-late '90s (for US deliveries, at least), and I kept one of those for a long time (needing fat-to-thin adapter plugs) because other keyboards made me feel my left hand was going to fall over the side.
/dps "(spare parens here)"
Robert Bannister - 29 Nov 2011 01:00 GMT >>> Having looked into the matter, I find that the changeover occurred >>> around 1986 with the invention of IBM's "101-key enhanced keyboard [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Pre-MS-DOS computers sometimes had function keys, but there was no standard > for where they were placed or what they were used for. In all the thirty years I have owned computers, I have never used a function key for anything at all. There was always a 2-key workaround that suited my fingers better.
 Signature Robert Bannister
tony cooper - 28 Nov 2011 05:30 GMT >>>>> I am referring to the so-called "Enhanced" ergonomically crippled >>>>> keyboards with the function keys on the top, deliberately [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >standard. I can't seem to find a picture of that keyboard, but I do >see other pre-MS DOS computers that had such things. I also had an Archives computer, and WordStar, and remember those template things that fit over the function keys. However, I don't remember the layout of the keyboard.
Here is a template like the one I had, but not one for WordStar http://www.talkgraphics.com/showthread.php?15427-Function-Key-Template
 Signature Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Garrett Wollman - 27 Nov 2011 19:12 GMT >One of my gripes about modern hardware is that editing tasks that formerly >required two fingers now require two arms. > >I am referring to the so-called "Enhanced" ergonomically crippled keyboards >with the function keys on the top, deliberately designed to slow one down and >make work more tiring. Why would that matter? It's not like they do anything useful.
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993
Steve Hayes - 28 Nov 2011 05:10 GMT >>One of my gripes about modern hardware is that editing tasks that formerly >>required two fingers now require two arms. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Why would that matter? It's not like they do anything useful. But the standard 84-key keyboard for MS-DOS computers had software written to make use of its capabilities, and when editing it was dead easy to define (now called select) text by line (F4), word (alt-F4), sentence (ctrl F4) or paragraph (shift F4), just by moving your fingers, and not by moving your whole hand.
And one could delete text by using F5 in the same way. Hold the Alt key down, press F5 three times to delete "in respect of" and replace it with "for". Now you have to jiggle around with the mouse, which takes much longer.
 Signature Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Robert Bannister - 29 Nov 2011 00:56 GMT >>> Sadly, the way it works in most "modern" editors is that the user >>> locates the end of the sentence visually, locates the mouse, moves the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > with the function keys on the top, deliberately designed to slow one down and > make work more tiring. In addition to that, last year, for the very first time, I had taught myself to use the number keypad, but then, when I bought my new computer(1), it came with a tiny(2) keyboard with no numerical pad at all.
1. Really just an update. It's still an iMac just like before, but with more whistles.
2. So tiny, I've had to relearn my touch-typing and still make mistakes now and then. I imagine this is the same as the keyboard in the laptops.
 Signature Robert Bannister
Adam Funk - 29 Nov 2011 13:10 GMT > In addition to that, last year, for the very first time, I had taught > myself to use the number keypad, but then, when I bought my new [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 2. So tiny, I've had to relearn my touch-typing and still make mistakes > now and then. I imagine this is the same as the keyboard in the laptops. It's been bugging me for a while that my laptop keyboard doesn't have a separate num pad (you can turn part of the keyboard into a num pad, but you lose a bunch of other things while it's switched that way).
So I've been trying out a Hama 2in1 USB mouse and num pad (the latter is covered by a hinged lid that you can flip up --- you can even use the mouse with the lid up, although it's a little easier to hit the num keys by accident). Unfortunately it interferes with the num lock function on the main keyboard, and I haven't figured out how to get them to work separately.
 Signature History teaches that grave threats to liberty often come in times of urgency, when constitutional rights seem too extravagant to endure. (Thurgood Marshall)
|
|
|