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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2011Martha
I'm reading Ben Aaronovitch's "Moon Over Soho," and would appreciate help with this exchange: ****** She invited me in and I asked her name. "Martha," she said and she must have seen me wince because she chuckled. "Yes, I know. I'm in the kitchen," she said and led the way. ****** The woman is in her twenties, her parents immigrated to London (Cheam, specifically) from West Africa, they're middle class (I believe), and she's cleaning the house when we first meet her. What's the significance of her name? Is "Martha" a cliched name for first generation Brits?  SignatureSML Seattle-ish > I'm reading Ben Aaronovitch's "Moon Over Soho," and would appreciate > help with this exchange: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > she's cleaning the house when we first meet her. What's the significance > of her name? Is "Martha" a cliched name for first generation Brits? It could be a reference to the industrious houseproud New Testament sister Martha (http://gbgm-umc.org/umw/jesusandwomen/marymartha.stm) or it might be a reference to the domestic goddess Martha Stewart - but really I have no idea. Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones >I'm reading Ben Aaronovitch's "Moon Over Soho," and would appreciate >help with this exchange: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >she's cleaning the house when we first meet her. What's the significance >of her name? Is "Martha" a cliched name for first generation Brits? It's a reference to the Christian Bible: Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her (Luke 10:38-42). SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >I'm reading Ben Aaronovitch's "Moon Over Soho," and would appreciate > >help with this exchange: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Blog:http://methodius.blogspot.com > E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk From the quoted text I don't think she's likening herself to the biblical Martha. There may be communities for whom this would be a common reference to make, but there's no indication here that they're from particularly religious backgrounds, and in any case the average reader (at least in the UK) wouldn't recognise the reference without a lot more signposting. Martha Stewart is more likely, as many of us are aware of her and what she does, but actually I think this Martha is just acknowledging that the name is rather old-fashioned. "I'm in the kitchen" is a shorthand way of saying "I was in the kitchen when you came to the door, and I need to go back there" (which they duly do). Similarly we might say, when someone arrives at a house party, "we're in the lounge". Mark >From the quoted text I don't think she's likening herself to the >biblical Martha. There may be communities for whom this would be a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >she does, but actually I think this Martha is just acknowledging that >the name is rather old-fashioned. Who's Martha Stewart and what does she do? I don't recall having heard of her. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>From the quoted text I don't think she's likening herself to the >>biblical Martha. There may be communities for whom this would be a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >I don't recall having heard of her. Lucky man. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Stewart Martha Stewart (née Kostyra; born August 3, 1941) is an American business magnate, author, magazine publisher, and television personality. As founder of Martha Stewart Living Omnimedia, she has gained success through a variety of business ventures, encompassing publishing, broadcasting, and merchandising. Her syndicated talk show, Martha, is broadcast throughout the world, she has written numerous bestselling books, and she is the publisher of Martha Stewart Living magazine. In 2004, she was convicted of lying to investigators about a stock sale and served five months in a West Virginia federal prison. <etc.> SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>From the quoted text I don't think she's likening herself to the >>>biblical Martha. There may be communities for whom this would be a [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > sale and served five months in a West Virginia federal prison. > <etc.> I think the original piece quoted by the OP had to do with Martha being in the kitchen, and I see little that would suggest the kitchen there, so I think the biblical allusion is more likely. Characters in books sometimes do come up with literary allusions, some of them a lot more obsc than that one -- Detective Inspector Morse, for example, a lot of whose allusions whooshed his partner Lewis. And where it is an allusion based on the character's name, it is even more likely. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 17:02:52 +0000, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)" > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > kitchen, and I see little that would suggest the kitchen there, so I think the > biblical allusion is more likely. I believe part of Martha Stewart's output is cookery tips and recipes. In the UK we think of her as a US Delia Smith. > Characters in books sometimes do come up with literary allusions, some of them > a lot more obsc than that one -- Detective Inspector Morse, for example, a lot > of whose allusions whooshed his partner Lewis. And where it is an allusion > based on the character's name, it is even more likely. But that was a key part of Morse's character - he was well-educated, and wore his intellect on his sleeve. Maybe Sara can help us out with anything pertinent earlier in the book. Mark >>>>From the quoted text I don't think she's likening herself to the >>>>biblical Martha. There may be communities for whom this would be a [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > example, a lot of whose allusions whooshed his partner Lewis. And where it > is an allusion based on the character's name, it is even more likely. Maybe it was a soup kitchen: <http://www.marthas-kitchen.org/> SignatureLes (BrE) >I think the original piece quoted by the OP had to do with Martha being in the >kitchen, and I see little that would suggest the kitchen there, so I think the >biblical allusion is more likely. UTFG, Steve! -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | What intellectual phenomenon can be older, or more oft wollman@bimajority.org| repeated, than the story of a large research program Opinions not shared by| that impaled itself upon a false central assumption my employers. | accepted by all practitioners? - S.J. Gould, 1993 >> I think the original piece quoted by the OP had to do with Martha >> being in the kitchen, and I see little that would suggest the >> kitchen there, so I think the biblical allusion is more likely. > > UTFG, Steve! <Village Idiot Steve Hayes> "What's UTFG?" </Village Idiot Steve Hayes> Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ >>I think the original piece quoted by the OP had to do with Martha being in the >>kitchen, and I see little that would suggest the kitchen there, so I think the >>biblical allusion is more likely. > >UTFG, Steve! Advice that applies equally to the OP, who no doubt should have gone straight to Google without bothering aue with the question at all. Martha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha Martha of Bethany is a biblical figure described in the Gospels of Luke and John. Together with her siblings Lazarus and Mary, she is described as living in the ... Etymology of the name - Biblical references - Catholic traditions Martha Stewart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_Stewart Martha Stewart (née Kostyra; born August 3, 1941) is an American business magnate, author, magazine publisher, and television personality. As founder of ... Or just go straight to Wikipedia -- perhaps most of the threads on aue are unnecessary, and could be answered just as well by Google and Wikipedia. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Steve Hayes: >>> Who's Martha Stewart and what does she do? >>> I don't recall having heard of her. Peter Duncanson: >> Lucky man. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> business magnate, author, magazine publisher, and television >> personality.... Steve Hayes: > I think the original piece quoted by the OP had to do with Martha being > in the kitchen, and I see little that would suggest the kitchen there, so... But that's a large part of what her business, magazine, and TV show are *about*. By the way, look at this photo, taken a couple of blocks from where I live: http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/subway-5305-98.jpg See the movie ad (for "Anger Management") with Adam Sandler and Jack Nicholson's heads? That's not a rigid billboard; it's a temporary fabric or plastic banner hanging over the wall of the building. Now see the tall section of plain concrete wall in the center of the photo, aligned with the parked van? Well, when Martha Stewart's TV show started up, they advertised it with one of those banners, but covering the full height of *that* wall, and showing a full-length photo of her. That's a measure of how well known she is in Leftpondia. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Ever wonder why they call the screen msb@vex.net a vacuum tube?" -- Kent Paul Dolan My text in this article is in the public domain. > I think the original piece quoted by the OP had to do with Martha being in the > kitchen, and I see little that would suggest the kitchen there, so I think the > biblical allusion is more likely. <SNIP> She writes about the kitchen a great deal. Signature"If you can, tell me something happy." - Marybones >> >I'm reading Ben Aaronovitch's "Moon Over Soho," and would appreciate >> >help with this exchange: [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >they duly do). Similarly we might say, when someone arrives at a house >party, "we're in the lounge". I'd be kind of shocked, and saddened, if this wasn't a biblical reference: last time I looked, the "Martha" idea was as firmly planted a cultural reference as "scapegoat", "golden calf", "whited sepulchre", "stony ground" etc etc. SignatureMike. > On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 04:12:57 -0800 (PST), Sproz > [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > -- > Mike. Then prepare for shock and sadness. The average British reader would probably recognise at most one of those as a biblical reference, and be hard pushed to recall anything of the story. If your social circle is primarily churchgoing your mileage may vary, but a typical heathen reader of crime fiction wouldn't know Martha if she hit him on the head (with the lead piping, in the drawing room). Mark Mark > Mark > > Mark Are you a dog with a harelip? :-) Signature~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman filted: >> Mark >> >> Mark >> >Are you a dog with a harelip? :-) Wow.... Last person I heard that gag from was Red Skelton....r SignatureMe? Sarcastic? Yeah, right. >> On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 04:12:57 -0800 (PST), Sproz >> I'd be kind of shocked, and saddened, if this wasn't a biblical >> reference: last time I looked, the "Martha" idea was as firmly planted >> a cultural reference as "scapegoat", "golden calf", "whited >> sepulchre", "stony ground" etc etc. >Then prepare for shock and sadness. The average British reader would >probably recognise at most one of those as a biblical reference, and >be hard pushed to recall anything of the story. If your social circle >is primarily churchgoing your mileage may vary, but a typical heathen >reader of crime fiction wouldn't know Martha if she hit him on the >head (with the lead piping, in the drawing room). That could be the difference between a readerly and a writerly understanding of it. Perhaps someone who's read the book could illuminate the writerly aspect of it. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >> On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 04:12:57 -0800 (PST), Sproz > >> I'd be kind of shocked, and saddened, if this wasn't a biblical [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Perhaps someone who's read the book could illuminate the writerly aspect of > it. I'm out of my depth in that discussion. Maybe I should clarify that I do not believe the characters are making any reference to the biblical story of Martha. It doesn't make any sense of the exchange that takes place - what is there to wince about? That doesn't mean that Aaronovitch isn't making a reference himself, though I don't see enough evidence here to be convinced. Mark >> >> On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 04:12:57 -0800 (PST), Sproz >> >> I'd be kind of shocked, and saddened, if this wasn't a biblical [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > That doesn't mean that Aaronovitch isn't making a reference himself, > though I don't see enough evidence here to be convinced. Perhaps the narrator was taken aback by the thought that he might be expected to sing to her: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSDuhWgNiYM&feature=related> SignatureLes (BrE) > >> >> On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 04:12:57 -0800 (PST), Sproz > >> >> I'd be kind of shocked, and saddened, if this wasn't a biblical [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Les > (BrE) Thanks for that. I haven't heard that aria for many years, since my father used to play us, I think, the very same recording. Mark >>> >I'm reading Ben Aaronovitch's "Moon Over Soho," and would appreciate >>> >help with this exchange: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > a cultural reference as "scapegoat", "golden calf", "whited > sepulchre", "stony ground" etc etc. It might well be, but it would have whooshed me if it was. I just read it as apologising for an old fashioned name that sounds rather dowdy. The sentence could have said Mildred and had just the same effect on me. SignatureOnline waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk Sara Lorimer filted: >I'm reading Ben Aaronovitch's "Moon Over Soho," and would appreciate >help with this exchange: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >she's cleaning the house when we first meet her. What's the significance >of her name? Is "Martha" a cliched name for first generation Brits? You've already had some straight answers to your question, so instead I'll mention a bit of synchronicity: on this evening's new episode of "The Cleveland Show", Rallo (a pre-school kid who talks like an adult) meets another African-American boy his own age who introduces himself as "Rodney King, no relation"...the tag puzzles Rallo, so he asks "no relation to who?"...the new boy explains that he doesn't know, but his mother has taught him always to add "no relation" whenever he tells someone his name is Rodney King....r SignatureMe? Sarcastic? Yeah, right. > I'm reading Ben Aaronovitch's "Moon Over Soho," and would appreciate > help with this exchange: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > she's cleaning the house when we first meet her. What's the significance > of her name? Is "Martha" a cliched name for first generation Brits? Ooh, thanks, Sara! I loved "Rivers of London" and hadn't seen that the next one was out already. It's a biblical reference rather than anything to do with Brit culture. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) |
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