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Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / May 2005"In line with" (British-American translation)
I am an American whose company has just been acquired by a UK-based company, and a large part of my current job is to "translate" our marketing materials from UK English into US English, and vice versa. At the moment I'm interested in understanding the distinctions in meaning of the phrase "in line with" as used in British versus American English. I've borrowed (with slight changes) some examples from the web: 1. "The company's first quarter results released earlier today are IN LINE WITH full-year forecasts." Here we have a sense of earnings being *approximately equal to* forecasts. We could call this quantitative accordance. This would be commonly heard and accurately understood in both the UK and the US. 2. "She also announced moves to toughen up hygiene standards in hospitals, bringing them IN LINE WITH rules governing the food industry." Here the meaning is closer to *obedient to* or *in agreement with* or *compliant with* or *subservient to*. We might call this qualitative accordance. It seems like this sense would be less commonly heard in the US than in the UK, although it would be accurately understood in both. (If used in US, the phrase here would undoubtedly be "into line with") 3. "The rate of the interest applicable to your loan will fluctuate IN LINE WITH changes to the variable interest rate." Here we mean *along with* or *at the same time and in the same direction as*. Let's call it a spatial/temporal accordance. This is definitely a UK-only usage, although Americans would probably understand it correctly. So far this is all pretty straightforward. What I'm wondering about is this type of usage: 4. "IN LINE WITH major changes in medical education over the last decade, the book stresses the importance of the community and the health of the population which play an integral part in becoming a good doctor." This I would also classify as a non-US English usage - to my American ears it sounds vague and imprecise. The phrase seems to have one of the following meanings... *concurrent with* (temporal/simultaneous) *as a result of* (temporal/causal) *in addition to* (temporal/sequence ambiguous) *mindful of* (not sure how to classify this one) My hunch is that *mindful of* is closest to the intended meaning. But I also suspect it could be a combination of meanings. Can anyone shed some light on this topic? >I am an American whose company has just been acquired by a UK-based >company, and a large part of my current job is to "translate" our >marketing materials from UK English into US English, and vice versa. You may find it helpful to know that this process commonly goes by the name of "localization". jc >>I am an American whose company has just been acquired by a UK-based >>company, and a large part of my current job is to "translate" our [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >jc Even in the case of changing *to* US English? I thought that was called "globalization". Best regards, Spehro Pefhany  Signature"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward" speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com In alt.usage.english, Spehro Pefhany wrote: >>>I am an American whose company has just been acquired by a UK-based >>>company, and a large part of my current job is to "translate" our [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Even in the case of changing *to* US English? That's "localisation". SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England "Mike Barnes" <may2005@mikebarnes.fsnet.co.uk> wrote... > In alt.usage.english, Spehro Pefhany wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > That's "localisation". In my experience the term isn't used to refer to a single instance of translation. Take for example a piece of software which has been written for a single market, the UK for example, and which is now to be marketed more widely. The program is first _globalised_, which involves putting all the market-specific stuff into a separate "resource file" and modifying the program to retrieve its contents at runtime. Then the _localisation_ phase can occur everytime a new market is prepared, and this involves creating a new version of the resource file in French, US English, etc. Matti > In alt.usage.english, Spehro Pefhany wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > That's "localisation". Izzenit "colonisation"? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > In alt.usage.english, Spehro Pefhany wrote: >> >>>> I am an American whose company has just been acquired by a UK-based >>>> company, and a large part of my current job is to "translate" our >>>> marketing materials from UK English into US English, and vice >>>> versa. >>> >>> You may find it helpful to know that this process commonly goes by >>> the name of "localization". >> >> Even in the case of changing *to* US English? > > That's "localisation". Either way, it's a dashed bad word, since it already means something very different which might often appear in the same context. But I have no single-word alternative to offer. SignatureMike. >In alt.usage.english, Spehro Pefhany wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >>Even in the case of changing *to* US English? Yes. When a US publisher goes to print an article that was first printed in the UK, they typically have the article localized for US readers. Kilos are converted to pounds, colour is changed to color, the storage area in a vehicle is changed from boot to trunk, etc. >That's "localisation". I don't know if you are referring to a pondial spelling difference or not. My choice of spelling was influenced by the frequency with which the word is spelled on the net. I used the more common spelling since it is ~10 times more likely to aid the OP when searching for localization resources on the net: <http://www.google.com/search?q=localization> ~8,510,000 results <http://www.google.com/search?q=localisation> ~921,000 results. jc (on localisation/localization) > I don't know if you are referring to a pondial spelling difference or > not. My choice of spelling was influenced by the frequency with which > the word is spelled on the net. I used the more common spelling since > it is ~10 times more likely to aid the OP when searching for > localization resources on the net: What does the word "pondial" mean? > (on localisation/localization) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What does the word "pondial" mean? It refers to the great pond -- the Atlantic ocean. It separates some of us from the others, physically and in language usage. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >> (on localisation/localization) >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >It refers to the great pond -- the Atlantic ocean. It separates some of us >from the others, physically and in language usage. Which leads to such words as Leftpondia - countries to the west of the Atlantic; and Rightpondia - countries to the east of the Atlantic. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.u.e) [...] >>> What does the word "pondial" mean? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Which leads to such words as Leftpondia - countries to the west of the > Atlantic; and Rightpondia - countries to the east of the Atlantic. And also the self-explanatory "Antipondean". SignatureMike. > I am an American whose company has just been acquired by a UK-based > company, and a large part of my current job is to "translate" our > marketing materials from UK English into US English, and vice versa. At > the moment I'm interested in understanding the distinctions in meaning > of the phrase "in line with" as used in British versus American > English. In preface: this is not going to be a fun one. I can tell you that "in line with" does not appear in the OED Online or either of my primary paper usage manuals, Merriam Wester's Dictionary of English Usage and The New Fowler's. Nor does it appear in Chicago or the Oxford Guide to English Usage. My Oxford Reference Online access gives me nothing on a formal explanation of "in line with," with the following reference works searched: The Oxford American Dictionary of Current English The Concise Oxford English Dictionary The Oxford American Thesaurus of Current English The Oxford Paperback Thesaurus The Oxford Dictionary of Abbreviations The Concise Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology The Oxford Dictionary of English Grammar Concise Oxford Companion to the English Language A New Dictionary of Eponyms The Oxford Essential Dictionary of Foreign Terms in English The Oxford Dictionary of Idioms The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Linguistics The Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs The Oxford Dictionary of American Usage and Style Pocket Fowler's Modern English Usage Free Ask Oxford resources have also failed to nail down an answer. Bartleby.com failed to get anything on "in line with" in Dictionaries and English Usage. Last but not least, I ran through my Merriam Webster's Collegiate (11th) and Merriam Webster's online. Conclusion, we have nothing from a considerable number of formal usage writers, lexicographers and other specialists. Slightly more spurious sources would include: http://www.answers.com/in+line+with&r=67 http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861698673_561533461/nextpage.html Basically, this seems to be an uninvestigated, new point of English usage. I am an American and I have been living in Europe for the last five years. Here's my best personal stab at your questions. > I've borrowed (with slight changes) some examples from the web: > 1. "The company's first quarter results released earlier today are IN > LINE WITH full-year forecasts." > > Here we have a sense of earnings being *approximately equal to* > forecasts. We could call this quantitative accordance. This would be > commonly heard and accurately understood in both the UK and the US. Agreed. > 2. "She also announced moves to toughen up hygiene standards in > hospitals, bringing them IN LINE WITH rules governing the food [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > both. (If used in US, the phrase here would undoubtedly be "into line > with") I would say that "compliant to" is the closest meaning. You also have a point about "into line with," but without a corpora search on American English we really can't be sure. "Qualitative accordance may be a strong characterization, as we'll see in a bit." > 3. "The rate of the interest applicable to your loan will fluctuate IN > LINE WITH changes to the variable interest rate." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > definitely a UK-only usage, although Americans would probably > understand it correctly. Precisely. Americans would seem to be far more likely to say "in accordance with" in such situations. > So far this is all pretty straightforward. What I'm wondering about is > this type of usage: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > My hunch is that *mindful of* is closest to the intended meaning. But I > also suspect it could be a combination of meanings. Once agaon, I think you have discovered a significant usage question here, parrishioner. I disagree with you that "mindful of" would characterize the meaning as well as "in unquestioning acceptance of" here. This returns us to Usage Type 2 and the problem with thinking of it in terms of simple qualitative accordance. "In line with" in this understanding inherits a vague sense of toadying to developments in the field at large, as if the direction of the field at large over the last decade was above suspicion. It looks like a clever way to gain an argument from authority. I may be able to root up a few more reference works that will give us a better idea of what's going on. --Good luck, parrishioner. This is an important post. > I am an American whose company has just been acquired by a UK-based > company, and a large part of my current job is to "translate" our [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > Can anyone shed some light on this topic? Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggghhhhhhhhh You have to be some sort of c.nt to write paragraph (4) and twice the f.cking c.nt not to be able to tell what it means: having the same underlying understanding of how things are as those changes had. Freddy > a large part of my current job is to "translate" our > marketing materials from UK English into US English, and vice versa. At [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > health of the population which play an integral part in becoming a good > doctor." These examples document interestingly two different sorts of phenomenon. Business writing now displays a distinct preference for longer words and more words than for short phrasing. No. 3 could just as well read "will vary as the interest rate changes." No. 1 could read "results released earlier today conform to full-year forecasts." As linguistic skills decline, there is a temptation to use the current buzzword wherever it might fit, because of tacit associations of meaning, as between: in line with, align, party line, toe the line, line up with, and so on. I suggest focusing on the individual phrase is likely to mislead us, because of these two phenomena. Instead of seeking to analyse buzzwords and their variants, it would be faster to focus on the function of actual sentences, e.g. No. 4: > 4. "IN LINE WITH major changes in medical education over the last > decade, the book stresses the importance of the community and the > health of the population which play an integral part in becoming a good > doctor." First we can make it shorter: Following major changes in medical education over the last decade, this book emphasizes the community environment and local health conditions play an integral part in becoming a good doctor. We then notice the sentence is probably balderdash: 1. The reference to recent med school changes is solely ornamental. 2. The sentence identifies two phenomena, "community and the health of the population," which are themselves dissimilar and probably different in philosophical type. Both are quite real: but community is wholly undefined (e.g. whether the writer means social relationships or material conditions) and health is something lived by individuals but usually measured only in aggregate indicators (statistics about communities.) 3. The main verb of the sentence insists that medical training ("becoming a good doctor") is not merely influenced by these two phenomena: the writer claims they are functionally essential ("integral") i.e. their absence makes it difficult or impossible to become a good doctor. This seems to be practically meaningless. (No medical school could be void of "communiitiy" and "health.") The original sentence reads like a blurb. If its purpose is to sell this book, I suggest it be rewritten. (If the book were written so imprecisely as the blurb, perhaps we should write either both or neither.) At all events, study of the phrase "in line with" seems unlikely to help. This is why I prefer the functional approach, precision so far as possible, and the omission of needless words. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > 4. "IN LINE WITH major changes in medical education over the last > decade, the book stresses the importance of the community and the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Can anyone shed some light on this topic? Over the last decade, medical education has changed so that it now stresses the importance of community care and community health (i.e. it's not /all/ about the hospitals). This book does the same thing (it's not uncommon for textbooks to lag behind actual practice). So I'd say this was a *concurrent with* meaning. Thanks everybody for the great replies. The general consensus is that #4 is a case of sloppy writing that is trying to appear grandiose. As for ascertaining its intended meaning, there are a number of different theories... general environmental *in unquestioning acceptance of* (credoquaabsurdum) *having the same underlying understanding of how things are as* (freddyvessant) *mindful of* (parrishioner) temporal/simultaneous *concurrent with* (Linz) *concurrent with* (Gerald Harper) temporal/weak causality *reflecting* / *in accordance with* / causality-wise somewhere between *concurrent with* and *as a result of* (James Lee) *following* (Don Phillipson) ...but no one solid answer. I'm inclined to agree with Don Phillipson that study of the phrase itself is unlikely to reveal a clear sense of its meaning, since the author herself was probably unaware of what exactly she meant to say. I'm going to chalk it up as a good example of sloppy writing, BrE-style. I was hesitant to include the actual example I've been asked to translate/localize for work (because it's so fraught with other issues), but here it is for your amusement: 5. "In line with significant changes in the way legal firms approach the key services supporting fee earners over the previous two years, [the firm] was committed to considering ways to improve service delivery." You can see how any of the suggested meanings could fit in this situation. Now my mission is to track down the author and clarify the intended meaning. [...] > 5. "In line with significant changes in the way legal firms approach > the key services supporting fee earners over the previous two years, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > situation. Now my mission is to track down the author and clarify the > intended meaning. Before you go, you do know what a "fee earner" is, don't you? I happen to know because my solicitor is one: she's "in" the firm, and of course fully qualified, but not a partner. SignatureMike. ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.] > Before you go, you do know what a "fee earner" is, don't you? I > happen to know because my solicitor is one: she's "in" the firm, and > of course fully qualified, but not a partner. What's the significance of the term? I presume that a partner in a firm of solicitors can bill a client for fees (perhaps in the name of the firm). PD: How is a partner *not* a "fee earner"? Thanks - I wasn't aware of this distinction. The equivalent term in the US is "associate," which describes an individual who is licensed to practice law, represent clients, etc., but does not have an equity stake in the firm. There's also a position titled "paralegal," which is someone who has received a lot of legal training but does not have a license to practice. Would a partner or paralegal (I assume there's some equivalent term) ever be described as a fee earner? >Thanks - I wasn't aware of this distinction. The equivalent term in the >US is "associate," which describes an individual who is licensed to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Would a partner or paralegal (I assume there's some equivalent term) >ever be described as a fee earner? No doubt practices vary, but in my world fee earners are those whose time may be billed to clients. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! > Thanks everybody for the great replies. The general consensus is that > #4 is a case of sloppy writing that is trying to appear grandiose. As [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > [the firm] was committed to considering ways to improve service > delivery." Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Sweet f.cking Jesus. Spare us. Just take us now. "In keeping with". For f.ck's sake, who is employing this moron? The meaning is crystal clear. There have been significant changes. The firm is going along with them. So it's committed itself to thinking about how it can improve "service delivery". It's almost enough to have one demand that Americans all learn French and plague them with their utter inability to come to grips with our language. F. >> Thanks everybody for the great replies. The general consensus is that >> #4 is a case of sloppy writing that is trying to appear grandiose. As [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >and plague them with their utter inability to come to grips with our >language. Well, y'know, it ain't like me to be sayin' this, y'understand -- I mean, the way I look at it, grammer's like a porker, what's mighty good to eat no matter whether it's pink or black or what the note it squeals at. But Festus mah mule, now Festus is one o' them sticklers when it comes to style and stuff -- and Festus done tol' me he ain't gonna plow a single furrow till I tell you you done used "them" wrong in that next after the penultimate sentence o' you'r'n. An' as Festus tole me, that's cause you ain't never mentioned the French themselves, jes' that furny talk they use in restraunts. SignatureJosh > >> Thanks everybody for the great replies. The general consensus is that > >> #4 is a case of sloppy writing that is trying to appear grandiose. As [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > that's cause you ain't never mentioned the French themselves, jes' > that furny talk they use in restraunts. This is perhaps an acute symptom of infoxification;) *Bites tongue* I get the general meaning, old chap. It's the specific one that interests me. Your suggestion of "In keeping with" isn't any help - you've just replaced one piece of fluff with another. We still need to determine whether the writer is implying any causality, and to determine the sequence of the changes at large in relation to the changes being made at the firm. Are they happening simultaneously, one after the other, one because of the other, or what. But haven't I already made that clear? > *Bites tongue* > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > But haven't I already made that clear? The distinctions that you wish to make were not made in the original. If they are not required by the target language, you may safely dispense with them. > *Bites tongue* > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Your suggestion of "In keeping with" isn't any help - you've just > replaced one piece of fluff with another. Why are people employing this guy to translate stuff into Merkin if English isn't his first language? Freddy My suspicion is that I am a sort of charity project, that management find my dull-wittedness to be quaint and disarming, and that they know I will remain quiet and gruntled if tasked with decoding their "secret messages" for my fellow unwashed brethren. |
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