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lent/loaned

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Ching - 18 May 2005 17:19 GMT
Just wondering about the usage of "loan" as a verb.

The bank gave us a loan.
I learned that this is the correct way to say this. But then I've seen
"loaned" as well when I searched on google.
The bank loaned us the money.

Just wondering if it is as common (and correct) to say it in both
ways. In BrEng or USEnglish?
Another example:
He loaned me his boat.
He lent me his boat.

Thanks, Ching.
CyberCypher - 18 May 2005 18:05 GMT
Ching wrote on 19 May 2005:

> Just wondering about the usage of "loan" as a verb.

According to the OED, it goes back to about the year 1200. I'd say it
was a relatively old usage in English.

> The bank gave us a loan.
> I learned that this is the correct way to say this.

Nothing at all wrong with saying it that way, but it's not the only way
or even necessarily the best way to say it.

> But then I've
> seen "loaned" as well when I searched on google.
> The bank loaned us the money.

And that's the correct way to say that. I hope you see what I'm getting
at here.

> Just wondering if it is as common (and correct) to say it in both
> ways. In BrEng or USEnglish?

Yes and yes, and yea and yea.

> Another example:
> He loaned me his boat.
> He lent me his boat.

Those are both the correct ways to say those things. I'd use either one
of them or both. I can't tell which is BrE and which is AmE, because
they're both in my cerebral linguistic database. I prefer "lent",
though. I'm a native American-speaker, if that matters.

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credoquaabsurdum - 19 May 2005 01:30 GMT
> Just wondering about the usage of "loan" as a verb.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Thanks, Ching.

CyberChypher's right. but I've got to tell you...These are some tough
formal usage questions, Ching, and clearly come from someone who
already knows English very well. Let's give you some tools to help
yourself. I've shown you the British National Corpus lookup and a new
way to use Google, but let me point you now to some native-speaker
tools on line where you will find answers to questions like these.

For notes on modern American usage issues, try
http://www.bartleby.com/68/.

Getting your hands on a good British English usage manual is a bit more
difficult. I'll post on this again in about ten minutes.

Getting your hands on a passable British English dictionary that gives
you some idea of word origins is simple:
http://www.askoxford.com/dictionaries/compact_oed/?view=uk  There is
some usage help on this site, but then again, not much. Basically, if
you use a dictionary published by Oxford, you can't go far wrong.

Finding the right American dictionary can be a bit trickier. Use this
one! http://www.m-w.com/
credoquaabsurdum - 19 May 2005 02:26 GMT
British English online usage manuals are tricky.

You can use this, but it's a bit "dodgy," as my British friends would
put it.

http://lib.luksian.com/texte/encndict/013/
Ching - 19 May 2005 22:16 GMT
> CyberChypher's right. but I've got to tell you...These are some tough
> formal usage questions, Ching, and clearly come from someone who
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Finding the right American dictionary can be a bit trickier. Use this
> one! http://www.m-w.com/

Thank you, Credo. I especially appreciate the self-help tools that you
suggest.
I am very interested in the Englsh language, but am rather at a
disadvantage as a learner. I believe that learning English is much
easier if you live in an English-speaking country/environment. Lacking
that, I try to learn in other ways and am thankful that there are so
many people in this newsgroup who are willing to share their
knowledge.
As is obvious, my main problem is "usage". A teacher once told me to
either stick with BrE or with AmE and never to mix. I think he called
the mixture "transatlantic" and there was a risk of drowning if I used
a "transatlantic version" of the language. I have never been able to
keep the two apart. But I'm still learning and have no intention of
giving up as yet.
So, once again, thanks.
Einde O'Callaghan - 19 May 2005 23:37 GMT
<snip>

> As is obvious, my main problem is "usage". A teacher once told me to
> either stick with BrE or with AmE and never to mix. I think he called
> the mixture "transatlantic" and there was a risk of drowning if I used
> a "transatlantic version" of the language. I have never been able to
> keep the two apart.

Since British and American usage (and even Australian usage) constantly
influence each other today this is a rather senseless task. This isn't
to deny that there are differences in vocabulary, but then there are
also differences of vocabulary even between regions in England.

To be quite honest I don't really notice whether a book or article is
using British or American spelling unless I have to analyse it. Indeed
in these days of globalisation you will now find books on sale in
Britain written by British authors and published by apparently British
publishers but using American spelling because the multi-national
corporation that owns the British publisher has the British and American
editions printed by the same firm in, say, Hong Kong and just puts
different covers on the same edition.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
credoquaabsurdum - 20 May 2005 02:12 GMT
Well, I went overboard again, but this one was rather fun.

> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> To be quite honest I don't really notice whether a book or article is

> using British or American spelling unless I have to analyse it. Indeed
> in these days of globalisation you will now find books on sale in
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> editions printed by the same firm in, say, Hong Kong and just puts
> different covers on the same edition.

First, here's some more self-help material.

http://dir.yahoo.com/Social_Science/Linguistics_and_Human_Languages/Languages/Sp
ecific_Languages/English/Grammar__Usage__and_Style/


A second point: dictionaries and usage manuals all have a life of about
ten years of real utility. Never, ever buy the expensive, ornate
versions of such books: they are marketed for ostentatious fools and
people looking for expensive gifts for their loved ones.

I am in complete agreement regarding all of Einde's comments, but I
would like to state that I believe you should, wherever possible, first
turn to Oxford/Cambridge University Press materials for answer to your
usage questions. There are many practical reasons for this, most of
which are obvious, some of which are not, but I don't think this is the
place to discuss them.

It is important, though, to once again state that I'm American and have
never set foot in the UK, so I'm not trying to market "my" variety of
English.

The vast majority of self-help sources on-line are US-based, so shop
around. A good rule of thumb: if three cheap or free manuals are in
*complete* agreement regarding a topic, you can base your job on their
answer to your question. Otherwise, keep looking.

Let's use your "loaned/lent" question as a model and find some online
sources, a mix of pay and free resources, but nothing out of the really
pricey usage manuals that would give you the best answers (while
putting you in the poorhouse).

-----

This is from the Oxford Guide to English Usage

loan      (verb) has some justification where a businesslike loan is
in question, e.g. The gas industry is using a major part of its profits
to benefit the PSBR by loaning money to Government (Observer).
Otherwise it is a needless variant for lend.

The Oxford Dictionary of American Usage and Style (this is a highly
questionable reference, as are all UK books on US usage. It's a pay
reference, and I've included it in this list to bolster my assertion
that you should never completely believe what UK authorities say about
US usage and widdershins likewise.)

loan; lend.   In formal usage, lend is the verb and loan the noun. The
verb loan is considered permissible, however, when used to denote the
lending of money (as distinguished from the lending of things).

Pocket Fowler's Modern English Usage (This costs less than thirty
dollars and is excellent value for your money.)

loan verb.  In 19c British English, loan was a standard alternative for
lend, but by the time Fowler wrote (1926) loan had been largely driven
out by lend, although it has continued in use in AmE. In current use
loan is mostly confined to non-British varieties of English:

Delaney told him he could loan him $50 a week-Thomas Keneally, 1985
(Australia) / The problem was how to stretch the small amount of money
he had been loaned by Herr Pfuehl-Anita Desai (India).

But it is used in BrE too in the context of making something valuable
(such as a work of art) available by a formal arrangement to an
institution for a period:

It is part of the Christ Church plate in the treasury showcase, which
also displays many items loaned by parishes within the diocese-Christ
Church Oxford: A Pitkin Guide, 1991

(an alternative, more pleasing to some, is on loan from). In normal
contexts, however, loan is a so-called 'needless variant' of lend.

The Columbia Guide to Standard American English. (This one's on-line
and free.)

lend (v.), loan (n., v.)

Lend (principal parts lend, lent, lent) and loan (principal parts loan,
loaned, loaned) are both clearly Standard in American English, although
the British still object to loan as a verb, and as a result several
American commentators reject or dislike it. Lend and loan are synonyms
in their literal senses as verbs (the transitive "to give someone the
use or temporary possession of something" and the intransitive "to
engage in the act or practice of doing so"), but only lend has
figurative uses: The morning sun lends a cheery air to the usually
gloomy library. The noun loan is also Standard: He made me a loan to
cover my outstanding tuition bills.

The American Heritage® Book of English Usage. (In my opinion, this is
the worst usage manual ever written, but many usage dilettantes adhere
to it because it's on-line and free, and several Usenet "grammar gurus"
swear by it.)

(no article on lent/loaned whatsover)

-----

Now, out of this group of 5 manuals, we do have some agreement, but
complete agreement? No. Pocket Fowler's did give you more explanation
than the others (which probably explains why it's not free), and the
Columbia Guide did mention the US/UK problem, so we got more and more
information as we went along. That's generally how it works with usage
manuals.

I would be willing to bet, Ching, that you know that occasionally,
non-native speakers with a smattering of UK/US language skills do their
best to advertise that fact to their advantage, often by putting down
fellow colleagues who have exclusively learned the language abroad.

This phenomenon is quite prevalent in Greece, I'm afraid, so I
understand why the answers to these questions are as important to you
as they are.

And finally, Ching, while your "problem" is usage, your English is
practically flawless. Despite the fact that I get caught up in the odd
post, I do have a job teaching English to non-native speakers and
people pay me money to make such decisions. Achieving that level of
written proficiency that you have while learning in a "non-immersion"
environment (you're not living in an English-speaking country) is a
worthy achievement and demands respect. You deserve all the help you
can get, even though you need very, very little at your level.
Ching - 20 May 2005 18:13 GMT
> Well, I went overboard again, but this one was rather fun.

> [...]

>> I would be willing to bet, Ching, that you know that occasionally,
> non-native speakers with a smattering of UK/US language skills do their
> best to advertise that fact to their advantage,

This is sometimes the case in Sweden as well, especially if those who
have lived in an English-speaking country have managed to "acquire" an
accent. :-) They are often more fluent in speech as compared to the
learners who have practiced pronunciation and intonation in speech
labs.

>often by putting down
> fellow colleagues who have exclusively learned the language abroad.
>
> This phenomenon is quite prevalent in Greece, I'm afraid, so I
> understand why the answers to these questions are as important to you
> as they are.

Sometimes the questions sound trivial even to me. But they are
important because they make me more "informed" of the differences in
usage. This is an area that has always been of interest to me.
(I have been ignorant of the self-help sites that you sugggested, but
now they are all bookmarked)

> And finally, Ching, while your "problem" is usage, your English is
> practically flawless. Despite the fact that I get caught up in the odd
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> worthy achievement and demands respect. You deserve all the help you
> can get, even though you need very, very little at your level.

Thank you. You have given my self-confidence an enormous boost. (I
hope this is the correct way of saying it)
Ching
credoquaabsurdum - 20 May 2005 21:50 GMT
> This is sometimes the case in Sweden as well, especially if those who
> have lived in an English-speaking country have managed to "acquire" an
> accent. :-) They are often more fluent in speech as compared to the
> learners who have practiced pronunciation and intonation in speech
> labs.

Speech labs are nice, as are sound-file pronouncing dictionaries, but
you should realize that the vast majority of language teachers do not
aim for perfect, native-like pronunciation with their learners. Quite
some time ago, an American language teacher named Diane Larsen-Freeman
published some research indicating that learners typically do not wish
to erase all traces of "country of origin accents" from their language,
and argued persuasively that in the interest of non-imperialism and
equal access to English for all, we should respect that wish.

This does not get us away from the "spend some time abroad/snob English
phenomenon" that I've talked about in this thread.

I am a great fan of phonemic transcription to aid pronunciation, unlike
quite a few of my colleagues. To paraphrase something I just read from
1872: "A few persons have the "imitative faculty" well developed, and
can easily reproduce forms they have heard; but most need to measure,
to analyze, and to describe, before they can copy with accuracy and
grace." I am not one of the people that can listen to someone
pronouncing something on tape five or ten times and imitate the sound I
hear flawlessly for the rest of my life. Give me a boring, boring
description of fricatives, plosives, lip positions and descriptions of
the inside of the mouth, however, and I will achieve a real measure of
permanent success. I feel that very few language teachers share my
opinion, but if you really feel a need to hone your English skills,
something like that is the only real help that you will get.

> Sometimes the questions sound trivial even to me. But they are
> important because they make me more "informed" of the differences in
> usage. This is an area that has always been of interest to me.

On the one hand, they are a bit fastidious. On the other hand, I think
I that there are some important cultural issues and some harsh
realities at stake that many native language speakers working abroad
often don't want to think about; I know I have problems thinking of
myself as an apologist for linguistic imperialism, although I
understand that on one level or another, that's exactly what I am and
how I make my money.
Ching - 20 May 2005 14:08 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> to deny that there are differences in vocabulary, but then there are
> also differences of vocabulary even between regions in England.

I am beginning to see that it is rather a senseless task, especially
in these days of globalisation and the influence this has on the
English language. More common differences in vocabulary and spelling
do not baffle me as much as usage such as lent/loaned and now (woe me)
learned/taught. The other day, a very good native-speaker friend said
"His teacher learned him to ..." I must remember to check this up on
google :-)

> To be quite honest I don't really notice whether a book or article is
> using British or American spelling unless I have to analyse it. Indeed
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

Thank you for your reply. It helps me to understand the complexities
of language learning.

Ching
CyberCypher - 20 May 2005 14:29 GMT
ringally@yahoo.se (Ching) wrote:
[...]
> The other day, a very good native-speaker friend said "His teacher
> learned him to ..." I must remember to check this up on google :-)

This is common enough in the dialect of uneducated American speakers, but
it's not at all standard.

And what do you mean by "a very good native-speaker friend"? That the
friend is a "very good friend" of yours or that the friend is "a very good
native-speaker of English"?

I certainly cannot question the first possibility, but I doubt the truth of
the second possibility: nobody who says "His teacher learned him to ..." is
a very good speaker of English, native or otherwise.

Signature

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
For email, replace numbers with English alphabet.
'"History," Hegel said, "is a slaughterhouse."
And war is how the slaughter is carried out.'
Sydney H. Schanberg, _The Village Voice_,
May 17th, 2005

 
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