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FCE or CAE?

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Silverblue - 31 Jul 2005 00:56 GMT
Hi,

I've had six years of English at school (I live in Germany) but
accourding to my teacher I did better than the pupils preparing for the
"Abitur" (they had 9 years of English).
After grade 10 I went to a vocational college and had another three
years of English but the lessons were terrible - and - I didn't do much
with the language that days. Actually I forgot more than I learnt.
(yes, I regret it today...)
>From grade 7 (after having had two years of English) I started reading
English books, wrote English poems yada yada yada but in that three
years I didn't do anything.
Now my love to the English language returned half a year ago - I
started reading English books again (usually without a dictionary, but,
of course I don't get every word), listen to BBC and CNN (usually
understand what they are talking about - but the same thing here, I
don't understand every word), have an American mailfriend to whom I
talk sometimes over the internet...
Now (I'm 20) I wanna attend a course at an adult education centre to
prepare for a Cambridge exam but I'm not sure which one - FCE or CAE...
On the one side it is said that for CAE you should have learnt English
up to grade 12 (for 8 years) but indeed I only had English for that 6
years. Some even say you should have stayed abroad for a longer time
(Unfornately I never had the chance). But on the other side I reached a
much higher level than common in that 6 years at school and besides I'm
a very quick learner. The course takes about one year with ~2hrs a week
- I would propably take the exam in June 2006 then.

Hm.... Really not sure what course to attend to now :-(

Has anybody been in the same situation? What course did you attend
then/what exam did you take and did you pass? Any expression of opinion
is welcome...
credoquaabsurdum - 01 Aug 2005 00:12 GMT
Hi, Silverblue,

I work in Greece and prepare students for Cambridge ESOL exams, among
others.

It seems that you've made your mind up already, doesn't it?

Cambridge ESOL believes that you should have studied English for about
500-600 hours before you sit for an FCE examination. The guidelines for
CAE are not as straightforward.

Here's how you check where you're at. You can download a Handbook for
CAE at www.cambridgeesol.com. It contains specifications for all levels
and samples of all five papers in it. The sample paper is, more or
less, at the level of the real Advanced examination.

You will be able to do the Reading, Writing, and English in Use papers.
The online Handbook does not, when I last checked, come with the taped
version of the Listening test, but it does have the tapescript. You
will, of course, not be able to do the Speaking test without a partner
and at least a single examiner.

There is nothing stopping you from checking your skills on Reading and
English in Use under mock examination conditions, however, since the
Handbook also has the answers for those sample papers in it. If you
score somewhere around sixty percent on those two, and don't feel that
the Listening and Writing test would be a real problem (and judging
from the writing sample that you've sent in, with real preparation your
writing will be at CAE level), sign up for the CAE prep class.

There are a number of other ways to check your level of English. I'm
surprised, for instance, that the institute that you have chosen to
attend did not offer to give you a placement test when you walked
through the door with these questions. That is not a good sign.

Make damned sure that your instructor knows what there is to know about
CAE. High-stakes test-prep is very much a business, and often, the
wrong kind of people get into it. The institute you choose and your
instructor will be getting paid a good amount of money to prepare you
for the examination, and a good test-prep instructor lives with three
copies of the specifications of the test they are preparing students
around: one in a bookshelf at home, one in a bookshelf at work, and one
next to their bed. If the person standing up in the front of the room
doesn't take the job seriously (and most don't), the class will not be
worth your time or money.

You should be able to ascertain this in the first week. Pay attention
to how the instructor answers questions about the specific form of the
examinations. Read your specifications and ask a question based on a
specific point. The best ones welcome such questions as an opportunity
to show off their knowledge. The worst ones twist their faces in
disgust and make excuses for not knowing, and then tell you that you
shouldn't really be asking questions like this.

You will not be the strongest student in the class, of course. Do the
work faithfully. Pay attention to the corrections your instructor makes
to your compositions. Don't cheat yourself and make any kind of excuses
for poor performance. Among weaker CAE candidates like you will be,
there is a tendency to overestimate your capabilities in fits of
bravado and then sink into despair whenever you realize that you can't
put your money where your mouth is.

Finally, you have found your way to this newsgroup. It really is an
extraordinary resource. There are about a dozen first-rate, committed
language teachers hanging around here who can help you with your
questions and problems.

Good luck!

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> then/what exam did you take and did you pass? Any expression of opinion
> is welcome...
Einde O'Callaghan - 01 Aug 2005 09:21 GMT
<snip>

> You will be able to do the Reading, Writing, and English in Use papers.
> The online Handbook does not, when I last checked, come with the taped
> version of the Listening test, but it does have the tapescript. You
> will, of course, not be able to do the Speaking test without a partner
> and at least a single examiner.

As an oral examiner for the Cambridge exams I'd like to correct this
last statement. There are no individual oral examinations for FCE, CAE
or CPE. Candidates are examined in pairs (or if there is an uneven
number of candidates, in a group of three) - NB there are also 2
examiners involved (the interlocutor, who speaks to the candidates and
gives instructions, and the assessor, who observes and gives the grades
accoerding to the specifications laid down). Partners for the exam are
allocated by the examination centre, so it doesn't matter if the
candidate is an individual or comes from a course with other candidates.

As regards level, a good intermediate level student should have no
problem with the FCE. The candidate should be able to cope with ordinary
everyday situations. However, for CAE candidates I would advise at least
upper intermediate level. The candidate should be able to cope with more
complex situations. CPE, on the other hand, requires a level of English
comparable to that of a native speaker and I feel that some native
speakers would have geat difficulty with this exam, if they were allowed
to do it.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
credoquaabsurdum - 03 Aug 2005 02:18 GMT
> <snip>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

As an unofficial Cambridge test-prep specialist here in Greece and a
thorn of some small note in UCLES's side, I should have been far more
explicit to my instructions to Silverblue. What I should have said was
that it would be impossible to SIMULATE an oral test without at least
one person acting as an examiner, namely, the interlocutor. Good call,
Einde. Since the assessor does not speak, his presence in a simulated
exam is unnecessary, but well, my info was quite confusing.

I'm curious about another point that you raised. Here in Greece,
candidates have the (titular) right to choose to be examined with
another candidate of their choosing, if that other candidate is
assigned the same testing time and center. Since candidates from the
same frontistirios (private language schools) are typically all given
the same time slots and centers, indeed, sit in the same examination
room on the day the other four papers are administered,  this is never
a problem. Does the same situation exist in Britain?

Lastly, I could talk about the CAE for days, and indeed, have been
contractually forced to do so in teacher-training seminars, back when I
had delusions of grandeur and didn't realize that my place was in front
of students and not other teachers...working for my students instead of
pushing books. Cambridge's official position is that the Advanced lies
on a scale of difficulty exactly midway between FCE and CPE. UCLES, for
a while, tried to push the CAE on us as a "bridging" examination
between FCE and CPE, until some vehement objections were raised by some
of us test-preppers.  In your view, is this true?
Einde O'Callaghan - 03 Aug 2005 15:54 GMT
<snip>

> I'm curious about another point that you raised. Here in Greece,
> candidates have the (titular) right to choose to be examined with
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> room on the day the other four papers are administered,  this is never
> a problem. Does the same situation exist in Britain?

I don't examine in Britain, but in Germany. I believe that candidates
can indicate that they would like to be examined with another candidate
of their choosing and usually they will be paired with this person, but
I believe they have no specific right to this.

I don't think there is any real advantage to this, other than perhaps an
slight plus of being certain that you can understand the accent of teh
other student. But if a students accent is such that others might have
difficulty understanding him or her then I don't think that they will
have much chance of passing the oral exam at either CAE or FCE.

> Lastly, I could talk about the CAE for days, and indeed, have been
> contractually forced to do so in teacher-training seminars, back when I
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> between FCE and CPE, until some vehement objections were raised by some
> of us test-preppers.  In your view, is this true?

I don't think CAE is midway between FCE and CPE. The leap from CAE and
CPE is much greater thatn the leap from FCE to CAE. On the basis of my
experience peparing people for exams I've come to the conclusion that a
strong FCE student could probably just about pass the CAE with minimal
preparation for the minor differences. I don't think that even a strong
CAE student would be able to pass the CPE without a great deal of
preparation. The level of English required for CPE is almost native
language standard with a strong academic bias. In my opinion many native
speakers wouldn't pass the CPE exam.

It is true that in some ways you could see CAE as a "bridging" exam
between FCE and CPE, but even for those who might use English regularly
in their work I think CAE level is probably quite adequate.On the other
hand, if people want to study in an English-speaking country I think CPE
would be a better preparation for coping with English in an academic
environment. But then there are other exams which are aimed at this
market, e.g. IELTS - but as an indicator of "global achievement" I'd say
that CPE is the "market leader", so to speak.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Silverblue - 09 Aug 2005 16:19 GMT
Thanks for your answers - where I want to attend the prep course there
isn't a placement test, they offer advice to decide which course to
attend but not more. Both adult education centres which are consideres
don't btw. - but both have native speakers as instructors so they
probably know what they are talking about (at least I hope so!).

I tried the test papers now and reached more than 60% in the "English
in Use" paper as well as in the reading paper so I think I'll attend
the CAE-prep course - if I notice that I won't pass the exam in half a
year I still can take the FCE so... nothing to lose I think.
credoquaabsurdum - 13 Aug 2005 19:49 GMT
> Thanks for your answers - where I want to attend the prep course there
> isn't a placement test, they offer advice to decide which course to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the CAE-prep course - if I notice that I won't pass the exam in half a
> year I still can take the FCE so... nothing to lose I think.

Well, Silverblue, it may not all be as straightforward as you think: I
remain convinced that the structure of the CAE needs to be
significantly modified before it becomes fully integrated into the new
structure of the Main Suite, so you'll find yourself challenged with
tasks and developing skills for CAE that you will not need in FCE, and
to a lesser extent, vice versa. Despite what Cambridge says about the
level of English in these tests, it's not a simple matter of taking the
test without preparing for them based on your own judgement of your
ability in English. If you want to take the FCE, run through a couple
of practice tests before you sit for that examination, at the very
least. ESPECIALLY the Listening test.

Another point is that your faith in native speaker instructors might be
misplaced: as one myself, I can cheerfully admit that I have made
plenty of money from that preconception of language teaching and
learning, but especially here in Greece, it's not always true that
native speakers are better language teachers...or even know what
they're doing. You may find a non-native instructor may not be able to
force you to speaking fluency or may miss a few points when correcting
a composition, but far too many native speakers of English in this
business know next to nothing about formal grammar teaching or might
see themselves as tourists working in the field before moving on to a
better job in something closer to what they studied at university. Such
clowns aren't all that easy to spot, either.

The fact that neither school you went to gave you an honest-to-God
placement test doesn't surprise me. It costs time and money to produce
(photocopy) these tests and getting someone with brains and experience
to properly correct them and comprehensibly explain the results (in the
student's first language) is not cheap.  There is also no guarantee
that students will accept the results and take the "examiner's" advice.

The fact that NO placement test was available, however, is not a good
sign at all. I don't care if you went to a binational center or a major
place like a branch of International House. I suggest you take another
walk around and see if you can find someone who will honestly assess
you in all the four skills: reading, writing, listening, and speaking.
 
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