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...teaching the French English ?

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Language EXCHANGE - 02 Dec 2005 02:44 GMT
[ Bilingual msg *FR/ENG*  Msg bilingue ]

Teaching the French English  ...  and vice versa
.
.
.
.
.
.
Bonjour <^ojo^> Hello -- Parlons !  Let's talk !

[ FRENCH...find the English version below ]

FAITES-VOUS de nouveaux amis partout dans le monde,
en apprenant leur langue,
et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...

Chattons, parlons, discutons (par tous les moyens gratuits) !

-  dans le salon de chat

-  par téléphonie--d'ordi à ordi (en utilisant Skype & Picophone)

-  par mail vocal (en utilisant HandyBits, etc.)

-  par messagerie instantanée (Yahoo, MSN, Google talk, AIM, etc.)

...Communiquons par TEXTE, VOIX et WEBCAM en temps réel (en direct) !

==========

More info?  Plus d'infos?

Go to / allez sur...

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FrenchEnglishTutor/

http://minilien.com/?0GKhhjoLaV

http://minilien.com/?x7xtYLwTdw

http://www.smartgroups.com/vault/update/CHAT.txt

=========

[ ENGLISH ]

MAKE new friends globally,
while learning their language,
and helping them to learn yours...

Let's chat, let's talk, let's discuss (by all available means, free) !

-  in the chat room

-  by telephony--computer to computer (using Skype & PicoPhone)

-  by VoiceMail (using HandyBits, etc.)

-  by instant messages (IM)  (Yahoo, MSN, Google talk, AIM, etc.)

...Let's communicate by TEXT, VOICE & WEBCAM in real time (live) !

..................

PROJET PILOTE :  NOUVEAU FORUM BILINGUE D'ENTRAIDE
    ET D'AMITIE POUR L'APPRENTISSAGE
    ET LA PRATIQUE DES LANGUES

Members / Membres :  600-plus / plus de 600

NEW EXPERIMENTAL MUTUAL-AID BILINGUAL FRIENDSHIP
    FORUM FOR LANGUAGE LEARNING & PRACTICE

-  ENSEIGNER LE FRANÇAIS, APPRENDRE L'ANGLAIS

(Ou vice versa...)

-  TEACH ENGLISH, LEARN FRENCH

..........

Plus d'infos / More info :

Pls go to / Svp allez sur :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FrenchEnglishTutor/

http://minilien.com/?3XUqIiPIdv

Aussi,

http://minilien.com/?0GKhhjoLaV
http://minilien.com/?x7xtYLwTdw

----------

Ce groupe est formé de francophones et d'anglophones
qui souhaitent améliorer leur diction et leurs
connaissances de la langue par la conversation.

Pratiquons ensemble en direct...

L'adhésion est gratuite.

................................

Welcome !   Bienvenue !

(DÉSOLÉ POUR TOUTES MES FAUTES DE GRAMMAIRE)
Paul Burke - 02 Dec 2005 09:04 GMT
> et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...

I'd love to learn better French, but I can never find the accents on the
keyboard.
Seán O'Leathlóbhair - 02 Dec 2005 10:23 GMT
> > et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...
>
> I'd love to learn better French, but I can never find the accents on the
> keyboard.

I would be happy with one accent provided that it was one that some
native may use.  I had not thought of looking for it on my keyboard.  I
had assumed that I would need to go and live in France.

--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
John Dean - 02 Dec 2005 11:43 GMT
>>> et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> native may use.  I had not thought of looking for it on my keyboard.
> I had assumed that I would need to go and live in France.

No, you can buy Aw-hee haw-ho keyboards in most good retailers.
Signature

John Dean
Oxford

Dave Fawthrop - 02 Dec 2005 12:26 GMT
| > > et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...
| >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
| native may use.  I had not thought of looking for it on my keyboard.  I
| had assumed that I would need to go and live in France.

Buy your PCs in France, then you will get the correct keyboard.
Only getting a French keyboard may work, but I have not tried it.
Signature

Dave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk>
"Intelligent Design?" my knees say *not*.
"Intelligent Design?" my back says *not*.
More like "Incompetent design". Sig (C) Copyright Public Domain

Jeffrey Turner - 02 Dec 2005 15:23 GMT
> | > > et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...
> | >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Buy your PCs in France, then you will get the correct keyboard.
> Only getting a French keyboard may work, but I have not tried it.

I think you'd have to set the country or language in order to
get a French keyboard to work correctly.  It's in the Control
Panel in Windoze.

--Jeff

Signature

The spirit of democracy cannot be imposed
from without. It has to come from within.
--Mohandas K. Gandhi

Chris Waigl - 02 Dec 2005 17:12 GMT
> | > > et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...
> | >
> | > I'd love to learn better French, but I can never find the accents
> | > on the keyboard.

The one on "vôtre" was entirely unneccessary. One might say erroneous.

> | I would be happy with one accent provided that it was one that some
> | native may use.  I had not thought of looking for it on my
> | keyboard.  I had assumed that I would need to go and live in France.
>
> Buy your PCs in France, then you will get the correct keyboard.
> Only getting a French keyboard may work, but I have not tried it.

Hum, just set your keyboard to US-International or UK-International and
see what happens if you use ALT-[key] or ALT-SHIFT-[key]. Doesn't that
work in Windows?

... well it seems it does, and furthermore it's easy:
<http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/keyboards/winkey.html>
<http://www.starr.net/is/type/intlchart.html>

No need to use a foreign keyboard just because you want to use foreign
characters.

Chris Waigl
Isabelle Cecchini - 02 Dec 2005 17:54 GMT
Chris Waigl a écrit :

>>>>> et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to learn better French, but I can never find the accents
>>>> on the keyboard.
>
> The one on "vôtre" was entirely unneccessary. One might say erroneous.

It would have been, if indeed it had been on "votre". As it was actually
on "la vôtre", it was entirely necessary, nay, obligatory, and one might
even say: pretty.

Signature

Isabelle Cecchini

Bob Cunningham - 03 Dec 2005 00:57 GMT
> Chris Waigl a écrit :

> >>>>> et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...

> >>>> I'd love to learn better French, but I can never
> >>>> find the accents on the keyboard.

The accented symbols can be copied and pasted from the
Windows character map.  In Windows XP it's at
C:/windows/system32/charmap.exe .  (Highlight a symbol,
"select" it, then "copy" it.)

> > The one on "vôtre" was entirely unneccessary. One might
> > say erroneous.

> It would have been, if indeed it had been on "votre". As
> it was actually on "la vôtre", it was entirely necessary,
> nay, obligatory, and one might even say: pretty.

I think I've read somewhere that the circumflex accent (^)
in some language indicated that a letter had been dropped
from an earlier version of the word.  The assertion was that
the circumflex, with it's sad-mouthed appearance, "weeps
over the loss of the departed <whatever>".  Maybe it was
Lancelot Hogben who said it.  It sounds like something he
would say.  

Is there something to that recollection, or is my memory
deceiving me again?

In the case of "votre", I think of Spanish "vuestro" and
Italian "vostro" and wonder if "(la) vôtre" might have come
from an Old French word that had an "s" in it, over the loss
of which the circumflex now weeps.  (I see now the French
plural of possessive adjective "votre" is "vos".)

Note that this would be different from using the apostrophe
to show one or more omitted letters in a word that is
*contemporaneous* with the contraction.

If my recollection is right, and if English had a similar
convention, we might write "wôn't" to mourn the loss of the
two "l"s in "woll not", or "shân't" for the missing "l"s.
"Woll" no longer exists in English except vestigially in
"won't".  (I suppose it could have other vestiges, like
maybe "would".)
Bob Cunningham - 03 Dec 2005 01:01 GMT
On Sat, 03 Dec 2005 00:57:08 GMT, Bob Cunningham
<exw6sxq@earthlink.net> messed up on the subject line:  It
should have been "the weeping circumflex".
Bob Cunningham - 03 Dec 2005 01:03 GMT
[...]

> The assertion was that the circumflex, with [*]it's[*]
> sad-mouthed appearance, "weeps

[*] "its"
Giles Todd - 03 Dec 2005 04:40 GMT
> The accented symbols can be copied and pasted from the
> Windows character map.  In Windows XP it's at
> C:/windows/system32/charmap.exe .  (Highlight a symbol,
> "select" it, then "copy" it.)

Some might find this utility:

http://allchars.zwolnet.com/

a little more convenient for regular use.

Giles
Bob Cunningham - 03 Dec 2005 11:49 GMT

> > The accented symbols can be copied and pasted from the
> > Windows character map.  In Windows XP it's at
> > C:/windows/system32/charmap.exe .  (Highlight a symbol,
> > "select" it, then "copy" it.)

> Some might find this utility:

> http://allchars.zwolnet.com/

> a little more convenient for regular use.

Thank you.  That's nice to know about.

I have an icon for charmap.exe on my Quick Launch toolbar,
so it's quite convenient to use.
Raymond S. Wise - 03 Dec 2005 06:30 GMT
> > Chris Waigl a écrit :
>
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
> "won't".  (I suppose it could have other vestiges, like
> maybe "would".)

As it happens, the circumflex *did* have a limited such use in English,
if the following excerpt from the Wikipedia article on the circumflex
is to be believed:

From
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumflex

[quote]

In Britain in the eighteenth century, which was before the cheap penny
post and a era in which paper was taxed, the circumflex was used in
postal letters to save room in an analogy with the French use.
Specifically, the letters "ugh" were replaced when they were silent in
the most common words, e.g., "thô" for "though", "thorô" for
"thorough", and "brôt" for "brought" - similar to the way in which
people today abbreviate words in text messages. This could have led to
spelling simplification, but did not.

[end quote]

--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Tony Mountifield - 03 Dec 2005 09:45 GMT
> I think I've read somewhere that the circumflex accent (^)
> in some language indicated that a letter had been dropped
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> of which the circumflex now weeps.  (I see now the French
> plural of possessive adjective "votre" is "vos".)

Yes, I also learnt that a circumflex denotes an etymologically
ancestral 's'. Hadn't heard the weeping bit though.

Compare French "fenêtre" with German "Fenster" and Latin "fenestra";
"rôta" with "roster". I'm sure there are many others. I don't know where
"tête" (French for "head") comes from.

Cheers
Tony
Signature

Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

Matti Lamprhey - 03 Dec 2005 12:28 GMT
"Tony Mountifield" <tony@softins.clara.co.uk> wrote...

> > I think I've read somewhere that the circumflex accent (^)
> > in some language indicated that a letter had been dropped
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Yes, I also learnt that a circumflex denotes an etymologically
> ancestral 's'. Hadn't heard the weeping bit though.

My French mistress taught me that it was "the gravestone of a departed
's'".

Matti
Raymond S. Wise - 03 Dec 2005 16:45 GMT
> "Tony Mountifield" <tony@softins.clara.co.uk> wrote...
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> My French mistress taught me that it was "the gravestone of a departed
> 's'".

While that covers most cases of the use of the circumflex in French,
the metaphor mentioned by Bob covers other missing letters as well,
including the "a" or "e" missing in "âge"--formerly, "eage" or
"aage"--and the "ao" missing in "soûl" ( = "drunk" ), formerly
"saoul"--the latter continues to be a standard variant alongside the
shorter version.

But even the metaphor mentioned by Bob doesn't cover other uses of the
circumflex in French. The French version of Wikipedia has a long
article about the circumflex at

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accent_circonflexe_en_fran%C3%A7ais

Among uses it mentions about which I was previously unaware is that of
making a word look more prestigious, which is the case with "trône" (
= "throne" ), prône ( = "sermon" ) and "suprême." The circumflex also
occurs in French simply as a result of one word influencing the form of
another, which is the case of "traître" ( = "traitor" ), influenced by
"maître" ( = "master" ).

--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Pat Durkin - 03 Dec 2005 15:04 GMT
>> I think I've read somewhere that the circumflex accent (^)
>> in some language indicated that a letter had been dropped
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> where
> "tête" (French for "head") comes from.

Of course, "testa" is from the Italian (and closer to Latin?) for head.
("Mala testa, I have been told, means "headache".)
John Ramsay - 04 Dec 2005 06:44 GMT
> >> I think I've read somewhere that the circumflex accent (^)
> >> in some language indicated that a letter had been dropped
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> Of course, "testa" is from the Italian (and closer to Latin?) for head.
> ("Mala testa, I have been told, means "headache".)

caput is Latin for head. testa is a cooking pot and a slang
expression for head, probably used by Roman soldiers.

Modern Spanish uses testa for head and cabeza,
presumably derived from caput.
the Omrud - 03 Dec 2005 09:57 GMT
Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> spake thusly:

> I think I've read somewhere that the circumflex accent (^)
> in some language indicated that a letter had been dropped
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> of which the circumflex now weeps.  (I see now the French
> plural of possessive adjective "votre" is "vos".)

You are correct - you can still find examples of "la vostre" on
French web sites, where the language is old-fashioned.

There is quite a list of such words in French where the UK version
retains the missing letter, usually an s:

castle château
roster rôta
paste pâté
forest forêt

and so on.

Signature

David
=====
replace usenet with the

Salvatore Volatile - 03 Dec 2005 13:48 GMT
["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.]
> There is quite a list of such words in French where the UK version
> retains the missing letter, usually an s:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> paste pt
> forest fort

The "UK version"?
Chris Waigl - 03 Dec 2005 01:40 GMT
> Chris Waigl a écrit :
> > The one on "vôtre" was entirely unneccessary. One might say
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> actually on "la vôtre", it was entirely necessary, nay, obligatory,
> and one might even say: pretty.

You say I'm wrong, 'ti Bob says I'm wrong and TLFi says I'm wrong,
so ... I'm wrong. Thanks. I'm suprised, though, and blame everything on
being friends with a particularly non-prescriptive (French) linguist(ics
student). My impression was that the circumflex accent on "vôtre" was
now commonly being dropped, even when the word was used as a pronoun in
the narrow sense, i.e. replacing a noun -- as opposed to as a
determiner ("possessive adjective"), when it's "votre".

Etymologically, keeping one and dropping the other doesn't make a lot
of sense: both come from the same latin root /vost-r/. In French, the
circumflex often indicates a dropped post-vocalic /s/, see for example
_hôtel_ (cf. "hostel").

As an indicator of pronunciation, it does make a little more sense. The
ô indicates a more fronted, closed sound, [o], in _vôtre_, which occurs
in a stressed position, whereas _votre_, unstressed, has [O].

As for pretty, I'm quite prepared to admire the foibles of French,
though maybe not today: I spent entirely too much time with the
irregularities of past participle agreement. (They said it was
*logical*. All right, so "les générations se sont succédé" doesn't
undergo agreement, but don't tell me that's logical.)

Chris Waigl

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mUs1Ka - 02 Dec 2005 19:31 GMT
>>>>> et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...
>>>>
>>>> I'd love to learn better French, but I can never find the accents
>>>> on the keyboard.
>
> The one on "vôtre" was entirely unneccessary. One might say erroneous.

As is your extra 'c'.
Signature

Ray.
UK.

jwlawler@yahoo.com - 02 Dec 2005 18:26 GMT
> > > et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> --
> Seán O'Leathlóbhair

Why all this sensible advice?  I thought that Paul's comment was a
joke, certainly mine was (a deliberate misunderstanding of accent).

--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Cool Guy - 02 Dec 2005 10:24 GMT
> I'd love to learn better French, but I can never find the accents on the
> keyboard.

See <http://www.starr.net/is/type/altnum.htm>.
Wooframus J. Burgher - 27 Jan 2006 13:39 GMT
>> et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...
>
> I'd love to learn better French, but I can never find the accents on
> the keyboard.
If you are using a standard ASCII keyboard, then you can "find the
accents" in the following manner:

For é you would hold down the [Alt] key and then press 0233 on the
numeric keypad. Likewise,

[Alt] + 0192 = À
[Alt] + 0194 = Â
[Alt] + 0199 = Ç
[Alt] + 0200 = È
[Alt] + 0201 = É
[Alt] + 0202 = Ê
[Alt] + 0206 = Î
[Alt] + 0207 = Ï

[Alt] + 0224 = à
[Alt] + 0225 = á
[Alt] + 0226 = â

[Alt] + 0231 = ç

[Alt] + 0232 = è
[Alt] + 0233 = é
[Alt] + 0234 = ê
[Alt] + 0235 = ë
[Alt] + 0238 = î
[Alt] + 0239 = ï

If you are using the Windows™ Operating System, the extended ascii
character set can also be accessed through the character map icon.
(KEYCAPS for MAC users.)

I hope this helped.

atb, Woofy
Stewart Gordon - 27 Jan 2006 14:13 GMT
>>> et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...
>>
>> I'd love to learn better French, but I can never find the accents on
>> the keyboard.
> If you are using a standard ASCII keyboard, then you can "find the
> accents" in the following manner:

There's no such thing as a "standard ASCII keyboard".  The method you
give below is part of the Windows operating system, and works regardless
of what keyboard you use it with (as long as it's a PC-compatible one).
 Other operating systems have their own ways of typing special characters.

> For é you would hold down the [Alt] key and then press 0233 on the
> numeric keypad. Likewise,
>
> [Alt] + 0192 = À
> [Alt] + 0194 = Â
<snip>
> If you are using the Windows™ Operating System, the extended ascii
> character set can also be accessed through the character map icon.
> (KEYCAPS for MAC users.)

Which versions of Mac OS does it come with?  It doesn't seem to be on
mine (X.3.9).

But the method for typing accented characters on the Mac is quite
simple.  To use your lowercase examples:

[Option] + `, a = à
[Option] + e, a = á
[Option] + i, a = â

[Option] + c    = ç

[Option] + `, e = è
[Option] + e, e = é
[Option] + i, e = ê
[Option] + u, e = ë
[Option] + i, i = î
[Option] + u, i = ï

No prizes for guessing how you type the uppercase versions!

Stewart.

Signature

-----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-----
Version: 3.1
GCS/M d- s:- C++@ a->--- UB@ P+ L E@ W++@ N+++ o K-@ w++@ O? M V? PS-
PE- Y? PGP- t- 5? X? R b DI? D G e++>++++ h-- r-- !y
------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------

My e-mail is valid but not my primary mailbox.  Please keep replies on
the 'group where everyone may benefit.

Robert Bannister - 28 Jan 2006 00:59 GMT
>> If you are using the Windows™ Operating System, the extended ascii
>> character set can also be accessed through the character map icon.
>> (KEYCAPS for MAC users.)
>
> Which versions of Mac OS does it come with?  It doesn't seem to be on
> mine (X.3.9).

Definitely most systems before OS X. Now you have to enable Keyboard
Viewer in International, although there is another way using Font Book,
which doesn't work so well for me. Keycaps was much simpler to access.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Odysseus - 28 Jan 2006 13:17 GMT
<snip>

> > If you are using the Windows™ Operating System, the extended ascii
> > character set can also be accessed through the character map icon.
> > (KEYCAPS for MAC users.)
>
> Which versions of Mac OS does it come with?  It doesn't seem to be on
> mine (X.3.9).

KeyCaps is in Mac OS 9.x and earlier. An OS X equivalent is the
"Glyphs" palette, accessed from a menu in many applications. A handy
third-party shareware utility called PopChar is available for older
and newer systems both. For the more common diacritics, such as those
used in French, the 'traditional' Macintosh key-sequences are easy
enough to remember that little to no additional aid is necessary,
once one's had a little practice.

Signature

Odysseus

Franssoa - 27 Jan 2006 14:37 GMT
Wooframus J. Burgher a écrit :

>>> et en les aidant à apprendre la vôtre...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If you are using a standard ASCII keyboard, then you can "find the
> accents" in the following manner:
<snip>

Hello, and excuse my english...

I my Swiss french keyboard I've the accents, but I can make 'accented'
letters too pressing in first the accent alone and then the letter :

key ^ + key e = ê
key ` + key a = à
kes ´ + key A = Á
...

François
Jukka Aho - 31 Jan 2006 08:45 GMT
>> I'd love to learn better French, but I can never find the accents
>> on the keyboard.

> [Alt] + 0192 = À
> [Alt] + 0194 = Â
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> character set can also be accessed through the character map icon.
> (KEYCAPS for MAC users.)

Both above-described methods work for entering accented characters, but
are awkward and cumbersome if you need to produce more than just short
snippets of text.

Fortunately, there is a much easier way: Simply change your keyboard
layout for something that allows you to produce the accented characters
directly. (No, not the physical layout, but the software-based
interpretation of it.) Windows comes with three "extended" keyboard
layout definitions for the English-speakers:

United States International
United Kingdom Extended
Canadian Multilingual Standard

All these have extra characters mapped behind the right Alt button
("AltGr"), and they also have so-called "dead keys" which allow
producing accented characters as combinations, in a rather logical way.

You can view all the above-mentioned layouts here (unfortunately, the
page only works with Internet Explorer:)
<http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/reference/keyboards.mspx>.

See the following pages for more information about usage:

<http://www.starr.net/is/type/intlchart.html>
<http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;306560&sd=tech> <http://www.csus.edu/fl/keyboard.html> <http://www.csbsju.edu/mcl/resource/Use%20Int%20Keyboard.pdf>The keyboard layout can be changed in the Control Panel, but the exactlocation of the setting depends on the Windows version you're using.- On pre-XP Windows versions, the keyboard layout can be changed inControl Panel's "Keyboard" applet.- On Windows XP and Windows 2003, the same option has been moved in the"Regional and Language Options" applet. (Select the "Language" tab andpress the "Details..." button.) You may have to switch to "Classic view"in Control panel to see the "Regional and Language Options" applet.Another way to launch it is typing "control international" on thecommand line.It is also possible to define custom keyboard layouts, with just thecharacters you need, in whichever buttons you like. This can beaccomplished by using Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator: <http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx>(The technically-minded might also want to take a look at<http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/handson/dev/inputinwin.mspx>,which gives further details on how keyboard layouts work in Windows,and what are some of the common design principles that should beadhered to when creating one on your own.)--znark
Robert Bannister - 31 Jan 2006 23:28 GMT
>>> I'd love to learn better French, but I can never find the accents
>>> on the keyboard.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> interpretation of it.) Windows comes with three "extended" keyboard
> layout definitions for the English-speakers:

There are big problems with this method for us touch typists. I remember
the last time I had to copy-type reams of French using an AZERTY
keyboard: full of typing errors. On the other hand, I can touch type
using either the Windows system (Alt+ the character that looks most like
the symbol you want) or Mac (Cmd + the most letter most likely to use
this symbol). In other words, I can quickly learn new typing
combinations, but not a completely new set-up. Even for typing Russian,
I prefer QWERTY layouts, which, fortunately, are available.

Pity the page you give only uses IE, which I have completely disabled.
This is one aspect of Microsoft that I really hate.
Signature

Rob Bannister

Jukka Aho - 01 Feb 2006 00:14 GMT
>> Fortunately, there is a much easier way: Simply change your keyboard
>> layout for something that allows you to produce the accented
>> characters directly. (No, not the physical layout, but the
>> software-based interpretation of it.) Windows comes with three
>> "extended" keyboard layout definitions for the English-speakers:

> There are big problems with this method for us touch typists. I
> remember the last time I had to copy-type reams of French using an
> AZERTY keyboard: full of typing errors.

I wasn't suggesting using the French keyboard layout. What I suggested
was using the "US International", "UK Extended" or "Canadian
Multilingual" keyboard layouts. These have all the normal letters in
their normal places (for people who are accustomed to the standard US,
UK, or Canadian layouts, that is) - but they just add more functionality
behind the right Alt key. (All the above-mentioned extended keyboard
layouts come with Windows; there's no need to download anything
separately.)

Another suggestion I gave in my original message was about creating a
custom keyboard layout and making it work just the way you like it. A
link was provided to a freely downloadable tool called "Microsoft
Keyboard Layout Creator", which allows doing exactly this in Windows
2000 or Windows XP environments.

For example, you can define a keyboard layout which is based on the
exact layout you're using right now, but in which - for instance - the
combination [Right Alt] + [C] produces "ç". There's plenty of room on
the keyboard for all kinds of additions.

If [Right Alt] + [letter] and [Right Alt] + [Shift] + [letter]
combinations aren't enough for you, you can turn [Caps Lock] into
another meta key and add even more foreign characters, special
punctuation, symbols, etc. behind that.

You can also define custom dead keys [1] and dead key combinations.

_____

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_key>

Signature

znark

Robert Bannister - 01 Feb 2006 23:04 GMT
> For example, you can define a keyboard layout which is based on the
> exact layout you're using right now, but in which - for instance - the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> another meta key and add even more foreign characters, special
> punctuation, symbols, etc. behind that.

It's at least five years since I used Windows, so I might be confusing
Word and the OS, but I thought you could already do that simply by going
to the chart that has all the symbols and changing the short-cut, which
appears at the bottom when you click on the letter you want.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Jukka Aho - 01 Feb 2006 23:25 GMT
>> For example, you can define a keyboard layout which is based on the
>> exact layout you're using right now, but in which - for instance -
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> another meta key and add even more foreign characters, special
>> punctuation, symbols, etc. behind that.

> It's at least five years since I used Windows, so I might be confusing
> Word and the OS, but I thought you could already do that simply by
> going to the chart that has all the symbols and changing the
> short-cut, which appears at the bottom when you click on the letter
> you want.

You're confusing Word and the OS. Word has a built-in feature that
allows defining keyboard shortcuts for symbols and special characters,
just like you describe above, but if you want these kind of things to
work system-wide you will need to create a proper keyboard layout -
either with the free Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator or with some 3rd
party tool.

You appear to be using Macintosh. The "U.S. International" keyboard
layout is also available for the Mac (even though the description on the
download page seems to hint that it is not necessarily needed for
producing accented characters - the Mac apparently comes with a more
capable US keyboard layout to begin with):

<http://www.brockerhoff.net/usi/>

Signature

znark

Robert Bannister - 02 Feb 2006 23:09 GMT
> You appear to be using Macintosh. The "U.S. International" keyboard
> layout is also available for the Mac (even though the description on the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> <http://www.brockerhoff.net/usi/>

Yes, interesting, but I don't think I need it. When I did use Windows at
work, I mainly used Word, so it was very easy to email projects back and
forth between work and home, and I didn't find the different keyboard
combinations a problem at all as I was mainly typing French and German,
so I only needed a limited number of diacritics. Now I'm retired, I have
even less need of such things.
Signature

Rob Bannister

Stephen Calder - 02 Feb 2006 04:47 GMT
>> For example, you can define a keyboard layout which is based on the
>> exact layout you're using right now, but in which - for instance - the
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> to the chart that has all the symbols and changing the short-cut, which
> appears at the bottom when you click on the letter you want.

That's in Word.

I also discovered that if you are in another text editor and wish to
access the alt characters, you need to use the number pad, not the
numbers at the top of the keyboard.

Signature

Stephen
Lennox Head, Australia

 
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