Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / December 2005

I'm not quite sure how much to snip...

First of all, I'm not at all fond of classifying verbs as "state" and
"action verbs". In my view, this is an intellectual exercise that
yields very little profit for the students. Admittedly, I'm
influenced by the fact that I never really understood the
distinction: not at the age of twelve, not now.[1]

Second, contrasting "until" and "by" looks rather unnatural to me.
"By" is often used in contrast with "at" (for what you call "discrete
actions"). "By" can be loosely paraphrased, and more importantly
introduced, as "at X at the latest" or "at X or earlier". Obviously,
if all the students have the same native language, and these various
adverbials somehow match up with how the prepositions work in this
native language, it might make sense to match things up differently.

I have a problem understanding you here.

As for some of your examples, you are neglecting the scope of the
negation:

- I won't work until the age of 65.
- I won't be back until 4 o'clock.

Try shifting the PP around:

- *Until the age of 65, I won't work. (The sense isn't preserved.)
- Until 4 o'clock, I won't be back. (Awkward, but the sense is
preserved).

In the first case, the negation applies to the full predicative "work
until the age of 65": that's what I won't do. In the second, only to
"be back", which is what I won't "do" ... "until 4 o'clock", i.e. I
will be back some time after 4.

So instead of working out some complex rule system no one has the
time or brain power to check when choosing between "by", "until" and
"at", why not paraphrase a few example sentences?

In addition, it seems to me that sentences like "He won't be back by
4 o'clock" need a very specific context to appear at all: there's an
expectation, or some external need, for "him" to be back by a
particular time: "We'll have to leave by 4 p.m. if we want to catch
the movie at 5. / Yes, but Jim won't be back by 4, what do we do
about him?"

This hinges on the meaning of "by". "I'll watch TV by 4 o'clock" is
also not particularly likely. Better with "be watching".

Chris Waigl

[1] If someone is shocked by this admission, let me rephrase that
into "the distinction has always left me unsatisfied".

One of my pet peeves when reading these threads is that people rarely
bother to read the entire thread before they start answering, and thus
repeat or paraphrase what's already been said. Since you've
cross-posted to multiple groups, it would be almost impossible to check
out your answers all over the place. So someone somewhere has probably
already said this, but here goes.

Since I teach English in Greece, where a single preposition is
typically used in place of both "by" and "until," I have a pretty good
idea of the kinds of problems you're having in your ESL lesson.

You mentioned 200 grammar books, but the best-known international
guidelines for using "by" and "until" are probably the ones found in
_English Grammar in Use_ (Cambridge University Press, 3rd edition), by
Raymond Murphy. The North American edition is called _Grammar in Use_
(CUP, still in the second edition). If you don't have this book, you
should probably get your hands on it somehow.

Your negative and positive distinction has me baffled, and I think
that's where you've lost your way. Let's see if this explanation can
clear things up...it might not, but it's worth a shot.

----

"By," in the senses that can be confused with "until," announces a
DEADLINE, tells us that a situation must not continue later than a
specific time, e.g.:

This report had better by on my desk by 5:00.
If this report is not on my desk by 5:00, you might as well find
yourself another job.

(Same meaning in both affirmative/positive and negative senses.)

"Until" highlights the amount of time that is left BEFORE A DEADLINE,
to say or ask how long a situation continues, to say or ask how much
time is left before something happens.

You have until 5:00 to get this report on my desk. (Yes, the deadline
is 5:00, but the speaker wishes to give the listener permission to
submit the report at 5.)

A: "Damn! I've forgotten when the concert is! Let's leave now!"
B: "Don't worry. It doesn't start until 3."

(Same meaning in both affirmative/positive and negative senses.)

So, as Murphy puts it in Unit 120 of EGIU: "something continues UNTIL a
time in the future, but something happens BY a time in the future."

Other example sentences, courtesy of Murphy:

I sent the letter to them today, so they should receive it BY MONDAY. (
= on or before Monday, not later than Monday)

I couldn't get up this morning. I stayed in bed until half past ten.

---

We might also head over to a nice little book called _Oxford Guide to
English Grammar_, by John Eastwood (OUP). Section 227.6 reads as
follows:

a We use till/until to say when something finishes.
Jim will be working in Germany till/until next April.
We sat in the pub till/until closing-time.

(Note omitted: irrelevant to this discussion.)

b We can use not...till/until when something is later than expected.
Sue didn't get up till/untill half past ten.

c By means "not later than"
I'm always up by eight o'clock. ( = at eight or earlier)
Can you pay me back by Friday ( = on Friday or earlier)
They should have replied to my letter by now.

---

Finally, one of the things that's hindering you in your search for
meaning is that in your explanation sentence for "until" in the
negative sense (I won't work until the age of 65.) can indeed be taken
to mean that you won't start working until you hit 65. It's your
primary meaning that's dialect (usually in American English).

(Fowler's Modern English Usage (3rd edition) makes that clear. Concise
Oxford (11th edition) Webster's Dictionary of English Usage makes no
mention of it, Merriam-Webster's Collegiate (11th edition) does not
accept it as a meaning of "until," The Chicago Manual of Style (15th
edition) says nothing on the subject.)

This is why, as Chris pointed out (2nd message in this thread),
switching around the word order murders the meaning you're trying to
get across.

However, not to praise Chris's message overmuch: if you're working in a
foreign country and your students are less than highly motivated and at
a certain ago of dissent (say, older than 13), well, in my opinion...

They are unlikely to attempt to assimilate meaning from example
sentences without explanations, form internal rules automatically, or
do anything other than stare blankly at such boardwork and think behind
the mask: "I hate you! I hate English! I hate your sentences and you
can stick them where the sun don't shine, because the only reason
you're putting them up on the board and offering no explanation is that
you CAN'T explain the difference!"

My perception of students' reactions may be overly influenced by the
fact that I'm an American working in a country that despises everything
about Americans...except their money, of course.

Good luck, El Torito.