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Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / March 2006How to overcome tongue-tied pronunciation?
Hi, I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any formal ESL training or certification, but I do tutor some foreign students in English - mainly written English. I've been approached by a Russian student who wants to improve her pronunciation, intonation and accent. She has trouble getting her tongue around English vowels. This clearly is beyond my capabilities. But I'm wondering what kind of tutor she needs. This seems to me to require working with a linguistic therapist in a language laboratory. Am I write in thinking that even someone with formal ESL certification would not necessarily have the skills needed to help her? Where would she look for this kind of tutoring? It doesn't seem to be available at her university. Thanks, netmon66 > Hi, > I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any formal [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > with formal ESL certification would not necessarily have the skills > needed to help her? No you wouldn't. Pronunciation skills training is part of professional EFL/ESL teachers' daily pallate, but if you haven't been trained in this it's not really something you can make up as you go along (nor is anything else in EFL/ESL as far as I'm concerned, but there ya go). Your friend could start by using some of the various online resources - at a basic sound by sound level she would probably find http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/about.html useful - and don't worry about the 'Sounds of American' stress on that particular site. DC >> Hi, >> I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any formal [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > DC I would serously consider sending the student to a vocal coach who could help her to sing on the vowels. It works because vowels require the use of tongue, lips and position of mouth, which in turn require the use of placement of the voice and muscles in the throat to make the vocal cords produce the correct sound. You could even help the student by doing this yourself as long as you can demonstrate position of mouth and vocal cords. Try it... By the way, I think you meant the "right" way - not the "write way". > > > Hi, > > > I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > position of mouth and vocal cords. Try it... By the way, I think you > meant the "right" way - not the "write way". Well I think the poster behind me meant that, certainly. If the student wanted to waste money they could go to a vocal coach, or they could take ESL/EFL lessons with a competent teacher. DC > Hi, > I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any formal [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Thanks, > netmon66 I am in New York City and almost all accent reduction classes here are run by speech therapists. They have in depth knowledge of how all articulators (lips, tongue, etc...) need to move in order to produce each sound. Also there are pleanty of products you can buy that will teach an American accent. There are pleanty of books, tapes, and videos, but I believe software is best because it gives you all the advantages of the other formats and more. In fact, my company, AccentMaster.com not only has software teach proper American English pronunciation but we have editions which specifically target different accents. After all a Korean accent is very different from a Russian accent and they are making different mistakes when speaking English, so they need to be addressed differently. We have different editions to help native speakers of Cantonese, Hindi, Korean, Malay, Malayalam, Mandarin, Portuguese, Russian, Spanish, and Turkish. We will be releasing more edition very soon. For more information about us please see our website at http://www.AccentMaster.com For more information about other products to help in pronumciation simply put in "accent reduction" into your search engine. Good luck, Steve Bo > > Hi, > > I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > Good luck, > Steve Bo What is there in Netmon's posting that makes you think his or her student wants to acquire an American accent? DC > > > Hi, > > > I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > Thanks, > > > netmon66 > What is there in Netmon's posting that makes you think his or her > student wants to acquire an American accent? > DC ?what makes you think she doesn't heron unDO email address ___ Nature, heron stone to be commanded, http://www.gendo.net must be obeyed. mailto:heronDO@gendo.net >> > Hi, >> > I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > student wants to acquire an American accent? > DC When learning English, the desired to acquire an American accent is very common. If however the student wishes to acquire a British accent there are products that can help. There are even products that can help teach a Canadian or an Australian accent. Either way the most important thing is to get a teacher or a product that can help. Just listening to native speakers and giving it time is not enough. As I wrote in my original post "For more information about other products to help in pronunciation simply put in "accent reduction" into your search engine." This will help give them a lot of information about the field. Steve Bo http://www.AccentMaster.com > >>> Hi, > >>> I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > Steve Bo > http://www.AccentMaster.com We work on different planets Steve. I understand the social conditions in the US which might lead non-native speakers to want to try to sound like an American, but I have a different perspective. I teach English as a Foreign Language, in a University in the UK, and have been around EFL for a long time. I don't want my students to sound like British people (and anyway - which British people? Around here there's a strong regional accent); I want them to sound like Chinese people, Iranian people, French people, whatever, who speak Good English. I don't want to mess with students' fundamental speech identity - though I do want to teach them good common core pronunciation. I also find the terminology of 'accent elimination' faintly nauseating - as if there are things that can be taken away from anybody's speech patterns and what they'll be left with is an American accent. What can be done is to attempt to change people speech to approach a different norm - and from where I'm standing American speakers have a strong accent. This means adding or modifying features, not taking things away. Not that you're going to change your fundamental marketing push, but we've all got accents matey. Even Americans. DC On Fri, 10 Feb 2006 12:38:28 -0600, Django Cat wrote in <news:T56dnSUb0Yg5QHHeRVnysg@brightview.com> on misc.education.language.english : > I don't want my students to sound like British > people Have you asked them what *they* want? :) >> >>> Hi, >> >>> I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any [quoted text clipped - 85 lines] > we've all got accents matey. Even Americans. > DC You say you just want to teach "Good English" but there are different versions of "Good English". If you teach someone your version of "Good English" and he moves to the States then he will be seen as "sounding different". Americans will immediately recognize that he learned what some would call British English. Obviously the reverse is also true. If someone here (English learner or native) went to the UK their speech would be immediately identified. When someone is learning English while they are in an English speaking country they generally want to learn the English that is spoken in that country. When the English learner is in a non English speaking country they may have less of a preference. A perfect example of this would be the middle phoneme of the word butter. What would be considered correct pronunciation in the UK would be considered to "sound funny" in the States. Again the reverse would be equally true. There is no proper pronunication of that phoneme that transcends the English speaking world. Each accent has it's own individual traits. You say that there are many regional accents in the UK. You should know that is true everywhere. I am in New York City, however we do not teach what is commonly referred to as a New York accent. In the US there is a particular accent that is referred to as a Standard American accent. This is the speech that is generally spoken on nationally broadcast news stations. That is the accent that my company teaches. Many countries have an accent that is generally considered to be the standard for that country. You say that you find the term 'accent elimination' nauseating. If you read my posts you would see that I never used that term. I use the term accent reduction which is commonly used when teaching pronunciation. The term itself may not be perfect but it is what is commonly used. Most people would understand that it means "sounding more like a native speaker". This can hold true for any version of English or for other languages. You also seem to think that I stated that Americans have no accent. Please read the posts again. In each post I discuss teaching a standard American accent. By definition we all have accents. Please read my posts before trashing them. I never said anything about adding features or removing features from a person's speech. This field is largely about teaching how to produce each sound. As you should know the /th/ sound found in the word "teeth" does not exist in many languages. How can we expect a non native English speaker to know how to produce that sound? We can't. That is why there are many products (and qualified professionals) that can teach a learner exactly where they should put their tongue in order to make the /th/ sound. When they start doing that they will start sounding more like a native speaker (and their accent will be reduced). Steve Bo http://www.AccentMaster.com > >>>>> Hi, > >>>>> I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > > we've all got accents matey. Even Americans. > > DC Thanks for a reasoned response Steve. > You say you just want to teach "Good English" but there are different > versions of "Good English". Not quite. I said I want my students to speak good English. By which I mean I want their grammar and word usage to be accurate and for them to use core pronunciation which will make them comprehensible to native speakers and, perhaps more importantly, other non-native speakers. This doesn't imply that I want to impose a particular regional variety on them. I certainly don't want to attempt to change the speech identities that root them in their own cultures. My particular situation is complicated by the fact that I am a speaker of Southern BrE - some people would call my accent RP - but I teach in a Northern City with a strong local accent and dialect. My students often pick up Mancunian pronunciation (depending on how much time they spend on or off the campus) but that conflicts with my speech. I'm not in the business of telling them I'm right and they're wrong in this context. Incidentally, we've still never established where in the world the OP is. >If you teach someone your version of > "Good English" and he moves to the States then he will be seen as > "sounding different". Americans will immediately recognize that he > learned what some would call British English. Yes, it's easy to tell where people learned English or have lived to study or work. In one class I have a Malaysian student who studied in Nebraska and a Chinese one who spent time in Limerick. You can hear mid-western and Irish in their respective speech patterns. >Obviously the reverse > is also true. If someone here (English learner or native) went to > the UK their speech would be immediately identified. When someone is > learning English while they are in an English speaking country they > generally want to learn the English that is spoken in that country. Well, as Enrico says, have you asked them? But here we're hitting the ESL/EFL divide. Your clients are looking to improve their options as long-term residents of the USA. Mine are spending time in the UK before returning to China, the UAE, wherever, and getting on with careers. Some of them are training to be translators or interpreters, and are very aware of how English varies around the world. > When the English learner is in a non English speaking country they > may have less of a preference. I'm not sure. Many do want to learn AmE, perhaps because they like elements of the language they meet in music or movies. In some countries - like Germany - there's a deep-seated and totally erroneous academic myth that BrE is in some vague way a more 'pure' form of language. That particular hang-up is a whole different can of worms and certainly not something I subscribe to. > A perfect example of this would be the middle phoneme of the word > butter. Funnily enough it's the first vowel in butter that's one of the markers differentiating my speech - I'd use /u/ in 'up' - from the norm in the area where I teach, where it's the vowel in 'bull'. >What would be considered correct pronunciation in the UK > would be considered to "sound funny" in the States. Again the > reverse would be equally true. There is no proper pronunciation of > that phoneme that transcends the English speaking world. Each accent > has it's own individual traits. Indeed. > You say that there are many regional accents in the UK. You should > know that is true everywhere. I am in New York City, however we do [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > company teaches. Many countries have an accent that is generally > considered to be the standard for that country. Do they? Anyway, US speech tends to be more homogenous than other varieties (as US-based posters here and on the newsgroups alt.usage.english and alt.english.usage regularly point out), so that's an easier thing to be able to do. In the UK it can be hard to identify what the standard should be. While RP is considered by some to be a standard, it's actually used by a small minority of the population. So, I'm interested here Steve, somebody comes into your programme who's from Russia, and has lived in Brooklyn for 20 years. He's picked up a strong local accent. Are you going to work on the Brooklynisms as well as the Russianisms? > You say that you find the term 'accent elimination' nauseating. If > you read my posts you would see that I never used that term. I use > the term accent reduction which is commonly used when teaching > pronunciation. The term itself may not be perfect but it is what is > commonly used. Not outside the US, where there appears to be a particular combination of sociolinguistic factors that lead people to want to enrol in these sorts of programme. Googling 'accent elimination' brings up the even more dodgy 'accent neutralization'. To be honest, I find it very strange that in a culture where diversity and individual identity are cherished, that it's considered OK to use this sort of terminology. If anybody in this country started advertising a service that implied the speech patterns of whole communities within our society were some sort of disabling problem, they'd rapidly find themselves in very deep political doodoo. > Most people would understand that it means "sounding > more like a native speaker". This can hold true for any version of > English or for other languages. Or how about "you too can sound like a native speaker (who works in broadcasting and doesn't come from New York. Or probably the South.)"? > You also seem to think that I stated that Americans have no accent. > Please read the posts again. In each post I discuss teaching a > standard American accent. By definition we all have accents. Please > read my posts before trashing them. I never said anything about > adding features or removing features from a person's speech. But all these things are necessarily implied if you talk about 'accent reduction'. What are you reducing? What's left when whatever it is is gone? If you 'reduce my accent' will I sound like an American? > This > field is largely about teaching how to produce each sound. As you > should know the th sound found in the word "teeth" does not exist in > many languages. Interestingly it's one of the pronunciation features that writers on common core language (aka EIL and/or ELF) believe doesn't effect mutual comprehension. They say it doesn't matter if a French person says 'Zursday' or a Mandarin speaker says 'Tursday', everybody still knows which day of the week we're talking about. But if an Arabic speaker says 'bat' when (s)he means 'pat', communication begins to break down. If you're worried about sounding like a native speaker when you're around other native speakers, then yes, you do need to know how to make a 'th'. None of this is to suggest that there isn't value in software-based pronunciation training at both segmental and suprasegmental levels. I especially like the University of Iowa's 'Sounds of American English' material at http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/about.html . Like your site it provides animated articulation demonstrations of individual phonemes. Unlike yours it's free. > How can we expect a non native English speaker to > know how to produce that sound? We can't. That is why there are > many products (and qualified professionals) that can teach a learner > exactly where they should put their tongue in order to make the th > sound. When they start doing that they will start sounding more like > a native speaker (and their accent will be reduced). Well, native speakers will think they sound less foreign if that's what you mean. Cheers DC >> >>>>> Hi, >> >>>>> I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > Incidentally, we've still never established where in the world the OP > is. For the most part I agree. When a person here speaks in a Boston accent (for example) I would not consider their speech wrong unless they were trying to speak with something other than a Boston accent. Two of my favorite examples of accent training (accent reduction, accent improvement, accent modification, etc...) are Arnold Schwarzenegger and Penelope Cruz. Both of them have chosen to change those parts of their accent that made them difficult to understand while leaving intact those parts of their accent that make them sound unique and very identifiable. Neither one has a standard American accent but both have gone through accent training. (I have heard Penelope state this during an interview and I am only assuming it is true of Arnold.) >>If you teach someone your version of >> "Good English" and he moves to the States then he will be seen as [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > careers. Some of them are training to be translators or interpreters, > and are very aware of how English varies around the world. Yes, most of my customers have permanently moved to the States but I do also have international customers. Even though English varies around the world there is still a need for instruction on proper pronunciation. For example when I listen to Tony Blair speak I never have any trouble understanding him. Even though he has a British accent, his speech is clear and I don't have to work at trying to figure out what he is saying. However I have met people while traveling (within the US and in England) that have such heavy local accents that I do have to work at trying to understand them. These people will generally go through life living in their community and will not have a problem with most local people understanding them. The problem comes when they relocate or need to address a different audience. That is when they need help. >> When the English learner is in a non English speaking country they >> may have less of a preference. [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > strong local accent. Are you going to work on the Brooklynisms as well > as the Russianisms? Our software product will only directly address the Russianisms. (Our product would likely help with some of the Brooklynisms but it does not directly address them.) Our marketing research has shown that very few immigrants who have been here for 20 years will spend any time or money on improving their speech. Our software has been designed to be as effective and as efficient as possible for the vast majority of our customers. If the person described wanted to work on both his Brooklynisms as well as his Russianisms then I would suggest he get individualized instruction. (Which we soon will be offering at Accent Master.) >> You say that you find the term 'accent elimination' nauseating. If >> you read my posts you would see that I never used that term. I use [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > of disabling problem, they'd rapidly find themselves in very deep > political doodoo. I agree that terms are not very good but that is what they are and I can not change them. As for the culture, diversity is cherished here. My part of New York City (Queens county) is the most diverse county in the US. I love that fact. I love going out to dinner and being able to get authentic dishes from around the world. The problem comes when I go to a store and I can not communicate with any employees there due to their speech. While I was in college I only withdrew from a single class. The reason I did that was because I had such difficulty understanding the instructor. (He was from India.) Communication is big issue here. Many neighborhood stores have signs that are only in Korean, Chinese, Arabic, etc... with no English translation. City notices are mailed are in at least in two languages (English and Spanish) but many are in more. Translators are numerous but always seem to be in short supply especially in hospitals. Most of this is due to new immigrants not knowing English (or knowing very little) but a lot is due to very heavy accents. Most people don't want everyone to sound identical but it would be great if we could all understand each other. Also some accents have stereotypes that people want to get away from. New York is a fast paced city and when someone from the south comes here with a slow southern drawl, they are often perceived as stupid. This of course is not true. It would be nice if we could change everyone's thinking but it would be easier to change that southerner's accent. >> Most people would understand that it means "sounding >> more like a native speaker". This can hold true for any version of >> English or for other languages. > > Or how about "you too can sound like a native speaker (who works in > broadcasting and doesn't come from New York. Or probably the South.)"? too many words We need a more catchy term. >> You also seem to think that I stated that Americans have no accent. >> Please read the posts again. In each post I discuss teaching a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > reduction'. What are you reducing? What's left when whatever it is is > gone? If you 'reduce my accent' will I sound like an American? Again the term accent reduction is the most common term for this (at least here in the States). It is not my favorite term either. One way to look at it is this. IF there is a certian accent that is your goal, then any phonetic deviations from that accent would be considered errors (at least in relation to that goal). When you reduce the errors then you reduce the accent. If you could eliminate the erorrs then you would have achieved the desired accent. >> This >> field is largely about teaching how to produce each sound. As you [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > around other native speakers, then yes, you do need to know how to make > a 'th'. Of course different phoneme changes can have different effects on intelligibilty. I agree that the /th/ -> /t/ has a minor effect on intelligibilty, but it is easy to change IF desired. Other phoneme changes (like final consonant deletion) have a much more profound effect on intelligibility. The most important goal of my customers is to be understood. Many would be very happy to sound like Arnold Schwarzenegger or Penelope Cruz but they need help in doing so. Many people want to go further and sound more like a native. Some don't want to be classified by someone at the other end of a phone call. Some feel self conscious about their accents when in social circles. There are many reasons. It is up to them how much time and effort they want to put into changing their speech. The more effort they put in the more they can change. > None of this is to suggest that there isn't value in software-based > pronunciation training at both segmental and suprasegmental levels. I > especially like the University of Iowa's 'Sounds of American English' > material at http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/about.html . Like > your site it provides animated articulation demonstrations of > individual phonemes. Unlike yours it's free. Those animations are very useful. Before we created our animations, I contacted them to see if we could license their animations and to see if we could pay to have a few errors corrected and a few animations of clusters created. Unfortunately the graduate students who created it are long gone and the person I spoke to at the university could not find anyone to fix or create new animations. We then hired a graphic artist and worked closely with him to create our own animations. The university webiste offers a lot of useful information but it is presented in way that is more appropriate for an instuctor than an ESL student. Our software is geared toward learners and also offers much more than just those animations. >> How can we expect a non native English speaker to >> know how to produce that sound? We can't. That is why there are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Well, native speakers will think they sound less foreign if that's what > you mean. Yes. > Cheers > DC Steve Bo http://www.AccentMaster.com > >>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>> I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any [quoted text clipped - 125 lines] > Penelope state this during an interview and I am only assuming it is > true of Arnold.) That's interesting. Different ways of talking are, of course, part of an actor's basic skills, and you could see why those two would want to modify their speech. In the case of Arnie, do you assume he's done accent training because that *does* seem logical, or can you hear something in his speech that you can pick up on as a likely modification, or that you think has changed since he's been in the public eye? My example would be another politician, Margaret Thatcher (who I always thought was a lousy public speaker, whatever else she might have been). Thatcher is said to have undergone speech modification around the time she became leader of the Conservative Party in 1978/9, to lower the pitch of her speech, slow it down and make her sound less strident. But then she's a native speaker. Thatcher also comes from a generation in which British children (including my mother and older sister) were sent to 'elocution' lessons to attempt to erase regionalisms and make them speak 'properly' (cf 'My Fair Lady/Pygmalion). Googling 'elocution' brings up the interesting variation 'Accent Softening'... > > > If you teach someone your version of > > > "Good English" and he moves to the States then he will be seen as [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > understanding them. The problem comes when they relocate or need to > address a different audience. That is when they need help. True, I have difficulty with people from Glasgow and from the North East of England, and for four years I worked in Oldham, a town only about 10 miles from where I now live, and to the day I quit I was still having problems with understanding co-workers. (I'm sure the same holds in parts of the US, though I've only visited NYC and California). However, people do move out of such areas and acquire new speech patterns all the time - and if you'd ever seen Oldham, Middlesbrough or parts of Greater Glasgow you'd have no difficulty understanding *why* they move out. I'm sure your types of programmes help, but they aren't a matter of basic survival in the new environment. <snip lots of interesting stuff> > > > You say that you find the term 'accent elimination' nauseating. > > > If you read my posts you would see that I never used that term. I [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I agree that terms are not very good but that is what they are and I > can not change them. It's the term that's the problem, but as you say, if that's what's in common usage, you can't start changing it. > As for the culture, diversity is cherished here. My part of New York > City (Queens county) is the most diverse county in the US. I love [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > many are in more. Translators are numerous but always seem to be in > short supply especially in hospitals. Things are similar to that in most British cities too (apart from the fact that we don't have a Spanish-speaking community) - I had a brilliant meal last night in the predominantly South Asian area of Rusholme in Manchester, known locally as 'Curry Mile'. When I worked for the local authority in Oldham we sent out documents in four languages. Sadly none of them were Silheti, the language spoken by the largest local minority community, and often people may speak a language but not read its written form, but these are other stories. > Most of this is due to new immigrants not knowing English (or knowing > very little) but a lot is due to very heavy accents. I do wonder though if native-born Brits have more tolerance of speech diversity than Americans do because there's so much more of it in the native language. To bring back Oldham again, the place is, as I said, only about 10 miles from here, but uses a totally different accent and (and this is the real killer) dialect. People there claim to be able to tell the street someone was born in from their speech. It's that sort of a place. I still think marketing in the way you do would be a cultural hot potato here, but then here's here and there's there. <snip more interesting stuff> > > None of this is to suggest that there isn't value in software-based > > pronunciation training at both segmental and suprasegmental levels. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > then hired a graphic artist and worked closely with him to create our > own animations. That's really interesting - I'd noticed that the site hadn't changed in the couple of years since I first came across it. Shame nobody's carrying that work on. We still don't know much about the OP's student. If she's going to ESL lessons run by competent teachers (and that's a big 'if', worldwide) she should be receiving pronunciation training as part of her course, but I can see where your sort of programme fits in with people who've already achieved a good level of English across other skills, or who really want to focus on their pron (or as my boss when I work in Edinburgh has it, "prawn") . Steve, thanks again for a good-humoured response which has changed my opinion. I still don't like the terminology, but it sounds like we're stuck with it. Cheers DC >> >>>>>>> Hi, >> >>>>>>> I need some advice regarding ESL instruction. I don't have any [quoted text clipped - 297 lines] > Cheers > DC DC, As for Arnold, I am guessing that about him because he still has a relatively heavy accent but I have never have any trouble understanding anything he says. It seems unlikely to me that this is coincidence. There are two ways we could know for sure. The first method is transcribe his speech and look for deviations from a standard American accent, then compare to how a typical Austrian accent deviates from a standard American accent (or if possible transcribe his speech from an early interview from when he was a weightlifter). If the differences are only in the phonemes that have a high impact on intelligibilty then it would be safe to say that he did this on purpose (as I suspect). The second method would be to ask him. :-) But I probably won't be doing either one in the near future. I do find it fascinating that different accents arise from places only a few miles away from each other. I know that the same it true in Italy (where my family is from). That kind of thing does not happen in the US. Thank you for an interesting conversation. I have enjoyed it. I did want to ask you one thing. In one of your posts you mentioned: "Interestingly it's one of the pronunciation features that writers on common core language (aka EIL and/or ELF) believe doesn't effect mutual comprehension." Could you point me to a resource which discusses which pronunciation features have greater or lesser effects on comprehension? Thanks again, Steve Bo http://www/AccentMaster.com > >>>>>>>><netmon66@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >>>>>>> > [quoted text clipped - 342 lines] > Could you point me to a resource which discusses which pronunciation > features have greater or lesser effects on comprehension? OK, a start would be http://www.teachingenglish.org.uk/think/pron/global_english.shtml#two http://tinyurl.com/cygfj which is an article discussing the theories of Jennifer Jenkins of KCL, and should be a source of references you could Google onwards. It has a brief synopsis of the pronunciation features which EIL people such as Jenkins think do not affect comprehension. To quote: ~"The 'th' sounds (see above) Vowel quality, that is, the difference between vowel sounds where length is not involved, e.g. a German speaker may pronounce the 'e' in the word 'chess' more like an 'a' as in the word 'cat'. Weak forms such as the words 'to', 'of' and 'from' whose vowels are often pronounced as schwa instead of with their full quality Other features of connected speech such as assimilation (where the final sound of a word alters to make it more like the first sound of the next word, so that, e.g. 'red paint' becomes 'reb paint' Word stress Pitch movement Stress timing"~ Jenkins' work was in my mind around the time this thread started, as at the time I was putting together a seminar for my translation group which kicked her ideas about. Jenkins points out that in the world today far more non-native than native speakers use English as a Second, Foreign or Additional Language. She thinks educators should not get hung up on the idea that non-natives students' interlanguage differs from the perceived norm of native speaker English, and should recognise English as an International Language (EIL) aka English as a Lingua Franca (ELF) as a world language in its own right, which can exist and operate independently of native language norms. So we should all stop worrying about third person -s, and whether students can make -th sounds. Although I have some sympathy for the ideology behind Jenkins' ideas, (for example, I definitely subscribe to the idea that English is not the sacred property of native-speakers), for me there's a fundamental problem. It would all work fine if all learners made the same errors in English, but they don't. Errors are conditioned by the speaker's first language, and vary from language group to language group. Arabic speakers get their -p's and -b's mixed up. German speakers have weird issues over tenses and think 'so-called' means 'what is known as'. Chinese speakers lose the ends of words (I think your web site mentions that one) and think 'a staff' refers to one person. French speakers use -z for -th. Italian speakers aren't sure about aspirated -h. Russians won't use articles. Put all these errors together and without some norm to refer to - such as native-speaker speech - what you get is total Babel. Hope this is of interest, Cheers DC >> >>>>>>>><netmon66@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> >>>>>>> > [quoted text clipped - 404 lines] > Cheers > DC Thank you for the link. I did find it very interesting along with a few of the other articles on the website. Actually I was hoping for a more comprehensive list of phonemes with some quantifiable measure of how important they are to comprehension. Perhaps that would make a good research project for a graduate student someday. If ever find such a list I will probably simplify it and make it available to my customers as something they could reference while working on their pronunciation. I certainly agree with you about the need for a language norm especially when people of so many different language backgrounds are trying to communicate to each other. Regards, Steve Bo http://www.accentmaster.com/ > >>>>>>>>>><netmon66@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >>>>>>>>> > [quoted text clipped - 423 lines] > customers as something they could reference while working on their > pronunciation. Well, looking up EIL or Jennifer Jenkins on Google Scholar could set you in the right direction. I'm inclined to think it's a rather subjective list though, and at the end of the day its the totality of little pronunciation idiosyncrasies that wear away at comprehensibility. Meanwhile someone posted this Berlitz advert on alt.english.usage: http://newnimproved.blogspot.com/2006/02/improve-your-english.html It made me smile, but I also thought 'so much for comprehensibility not being dependent on accurate articulation (or recognition) of -th sounds' - and in the Berlitz advert it becomes a matter of life and death. I suspect it wouldn't be too hard to come up with some more examples for each of the items on the 'this pron feature doesn't matter' list. Best DC >> >>>>>>>>>><netmon66@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> >>>>>>>>> > [quoted text clipped - 442 lines] > Best > DC Thank you for that very funny link. I have already started showing it to some friends. I plan on putting a link to it in our next newsletter. Although this shows a life threatening situation based on the /th/ sound, I like to think about this topic more in terms of percentages. Mistakes with /th/ sound cause a relatively low percentage of comprehensibility problems, but other problems such as final consonant deletion cause a much higher percentage of comprehensibility problems. Steve Bo http://www.accentmaster.com > >>>>>>>>>>>><netmon66@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >>>>>>>>>>> > [quoted text clipped - 456 lines] > Although this shows a life threatening situation based on the th > sound, I like to think about this topic more in terms of percentages. That's an interesting thought. Degrees of usefulness would be more helpful than just a black and white list. Funnily enough I've just got back from a meeting in London; Jenkin's name came up and it turned out the guy had studied under her at Kings. > Mistakes with th sound cause a relatively low percentage of > comprehensibility problems, but other problems such as final > consonant deletion cause a much higher percentage of > comprehensibility problems. What *is* that about do you think? It drives me completely crazy when my Chinese-speaking students do this all the time. Words that end in a vowel sound are particularly effected, and I get really sick of hearing them talk about 'technologdz' or a 'strategdz'. I get the feeling they've done minimal pronunication classes, and its alomost as though there's a feeling of 'hey, we've made the first 6 sounds for this word, how much do you darn well want'? DC >> >>>>>>>>>>>><netmon66@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> >>>>>>>>>>> > [quoted text clipped - 477 lines] > > DC The English classes in East Asia traditionally have placed very little emphasis on listening and speaking skills. One consequence of this has been that these students take the TOEFL test and get a good score. Then they go to an American university and have significant trouble interacting with others using spoken English. Here is a quote from an article on the subject in the New York Times (Sept. 25, 2005): "Most Asians, especially Japan, Korea, Taiwan, love reading, structure, grammer....Speaking is weak, because sometimes, it's impolite to speak out, to describe an opinion or talk to the teacher. When we take a class we just sit and take notes and memorize." Now that the TOEFL test is changing to include a speaking section many schools are adding more pronunciation classes. Here is a link to the TOEFL website. It shows when the new test will be available in each country. http://www.ets.org/toefl/nextgen/index.html Steve Bo http://www.AccentMaster.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>>><netmon66@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > [quoted text clipped - 509 lines] > Steve Bo > http://www.AccentMaster.com Unfortunately students who take IELTS exhibit the same poor speech skills, and that already includes a speaking test (for which I'm an examiner). DC On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 14:14:47 -0600, Django Cat wrote in <news:T6idnbw7w6EqdJDZRVnyhg@brightview.com> on misc.education.language.english : > Unfortunately students who take IELTS exhibit the same poor speech > skills, and that already includes a speaking test (for which I'm an > examiner). I gather that *pronunciation* is one of the criteria for marking and assessment... http://www.cambridgeesol.org/support/dloads/ielts/IELTS_Handbook.pdf "Pronunciation refers to the ability to produce comprehensible speech to fulfil the speaking test requirements. The key indicators will be the amount of strain caused to the listener, the amount of the speech which is unintelligible and the noticeability of L1 influence." Don't you think *accents* do play a role in that, even though not officially acknowledged in the criteria for scoring? > On Tue, 07 Mar 2006 14:14:47 -0600, Django Cat wrote in > <news:T6idnbw7w6EqdJDZRVnyhg@brightview.com> on [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Don't you think accents do play a role in that, even though not > officially acknowledged in the criteria for scoring? They shouldn't. I suppose you could see accents on a continuum, from charming regionalism to total incomprehensibility. An accent consists of a set of individual pronunciations, but not all of these need to be seen as greater or lesser errors. However, to take a word that came up in class yesterday, the stress in 'photographer' should be on the second syllable (but on the first in photograph). It doesn't really matter if the word is pronounced with a French, Japanese or Paraguayan accent, it only becomes an error if the stress is on the wrong syllable. But then you could argue that one of the things which characterises Far Eastern accents is l/r confusion, Spanish people get b and v confused and for Arabs it's p and b. So should we penalise an Arabic speaker who says "I have an *abbointment*" or just say that's his accent? As I say, these things are relative. I live in Derbyshire, in the North Midlands of England, where there's a strong local accent and some dialect. The guy who fixes my car is an excellent mechanic, and a native speaker. It's just a shame that I can never understand a word he says to me... Stay well DC On Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:39:50 -0600, Django Cat wrote in <news:eP6dnXJcb4ULD43ZRVnyuA@brightview.com> on misc.education.language.english : [...] > As I say, these things are relative. I live in Derbyshire, in the > North Midlands of England, where there's a strong local accent and some > dialect. The guy who fixes my car is an excellent mechanic, and a > native speaker. It's just a shame that I can never understand a word > he says to me... You see? :) Even if your judgement is sincerely unbiased towards the speaker's accent, it can strongly affect "the amount of the speech which is unintelligible...". It happens all the time with native speakers, never mind foreign learners! > >>>>>>>><netmon66@yahoo.com> wrote in message > >>>>>>> > [quoted text clipped - 346 lines] > Steve Bo > http://www/AccentMaster.com PS {Read Second} from the same article, the pron elements which *are* essential: ~"All the consonants are important except for 'th' sounds as in 'thin' and 'this' Consonant clusters are important at the beginning and in the middle of words. For example, the cluster in the word 'string' cannot be simplified to 'sting' or 'tring' and remain intelligible. The contrast between long and short vowels is important. For example, the difference between the vowel sounds in 'sit' and seat' Nuclear (or tonic) stress is also essential. This is the stress on the most important word (or syllable) in a group of words. For example, there is a difference in meaning between 'My son uses a COMputer' which is a neutral statement of fact and 'My SON has a computer', where there is an added meaning (such as that another person known to the speaker and listener does not use a computer)."~ DC |
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