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Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / February 2006off/off of?
Which is correct? The knife fell off the table? The knife fell off of the table? Lorna > Which is correct? > The knife fell off the table? > The knife fell off of the table? > Lorna off is correct but off of has been used for decades. There can be a wide gap between what is considered correct in formal written English and formal speeches as opposed to informal conversation. > off is correct but off of has been used > for decades. I wonder why. Surely spoken language tends to mutate towards the easiest way to pronounce things. 'off of the table' seems more difficult to say than the plain 'off the table': one more syllable! Unless it degenerates to the schwa 'off-a the table', which I suppose is easier than the 'fth' sound in 'off the'. Jan >> Which is correct? >> The knife fell off the table? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and formal speeches as opposed to informal > conversation. Both 'off' and 'of' are redundant; merely tropes, offering no additional information by virtue of being included. The knife fell from the table. Phil Innes > >> Which is correct? > >> The knife fell off the table? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > and formal speeches as opposed to informal > > conversation. > Both 'off' and 'of' are redundant; merely tropes, offering no additional > information by virtue of being included. If both are redundant then 'The knife fell the table' is correct? > The knife fell from the table. Nope. According to your own reasoning 'from' would be merely a trope, 'offering no additional information by virtue of being included.' > Phil Innes PS Do yourself a favour and look up 'trope' in a dictionary before using it again. >> Both 'off' and 'of' are redundant; merely tropes, offering no additional >> information by virtue of being included. > > If both are redundant then 'The knife fell the table' is correct? no >> The knife fell from the table. > > Nope. According to your own reasoning 'from' would > be merely a trope, 'offering no additional > information by virtue of being included.' see if you can work out if 'off' belongs to fell, and if 'from' belongs to table to some degree this is a matter of emphasis, that is: is it the verb or the object of the sentence being emphasised? he fell on a bus, is not usually taken to mean that he fell from a tall building and landed on a bus phil >> Phil Innes > > PS Do yourself a favour and look up 'trope' > in a dictionary before using it again. > >> Both 'off' and 'of' are redundant; merely tropes, offering no additional > >> information by virtue of being included. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to some degree this is a matter of emphasis, that is: is it the verb or the > object of the sentence being emphasised? Total nonsense. Try a web search for > English prepositions < You need to know the basics before presuming to advise others. > he fell on a bus, is not usually taken to mean that he fell from a tall > building and landed on a bus > > phil > >> Phil Innes > > > > PS Do yourself a favour and look up 'trope' > > in a dictionary before using it again. >> to some degree this is a matter of emphasis, that is: is it the verb or >> the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Try a web search for ROFL! In place of any logic, sense or sensibility, John Ramsay, who sounds like a prison library disciplinarian, refers to a web search - that repository of all wisdom [!], completely ignoring this idea of emphasis and cant usage, and treating words as if they were nuts and bolts to be mechanically combined. At the same time he demonstrates nothing at all of his own ability, not even taking a clue from the bus sentences below; and the different senses obtained in usage by 'fall off' and 'fall on'. >> English prepositions < > > You need to know the basics before > presuming to advise others. Everyone needs to /demonstrate/ a knowledge of the basics, otherwise there is no difference between philosophy [what one likes to do] and rhetoric [what one says one likes to do]. I hope John Ramsay will accept these notes as an impersonal criticsm, but also as a challenge to do what he himself advises, rather than yet another catty preaching admonition absent any demonstration. Phil Innes >> he fell on a bus, is not usually taken to mean that he fell from a tall >> building and landed on a bus [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > PS Do yourself a favour and look up 'trope' >> > in a dictionary before using it again. > >> to some degree this is a matter of emphasis, that is: is it the verb or > >> the [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >> > PS Do yourself a favour and look up 'trope' > >> > in a dictionary before using it again. More nonsense. A nuts and bolts question is exactly what was asked. Which is the correct preposition? Your pretentious maunderings about whether the noun or verb was to be emphasized and which word 'belongs' to which are nothing more than mindless twaddle. > A nuts and bolts question is exactly > what was asked. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 'belongs' to which are nothing more than > mindless twaddle. John Ramsay infers some greater wisdom that he has but cannot demonstrate it - after 3 goes! Is there any substantive difference in meaning in 'fall from the table' and 'fall off the table'? There is a difference in sense in 'fall off the bus' and 'fall on the bus'. And so to nuts and bolts; if John Ramsay has any of either, let him attach them to his messages rather than strike postures, otherwise the nut will indeed have bolted. Phil Innes > > A nuts and bolts question is exactly > > what was asked. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Phil Innes Original question: Which is correct - knife fell off/off of the table. 31 Jan Phil Innes wrote : "Both are redundant." Should be "from the table." 03 Feb Phil Innes wrote : "Is there any substantive difference in meaning in 'fall from the table' and 'fall off the table'?" The self-contradiction is obvious but probably not to Phil Innes. >> And so to nuts and bolts; if John Ramsay has any of either, let him >> attach [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > The self-contradiction is obvious but probably not to Phil Innes. John Ramsay doesn't recognise that one is a statement, the other a question. He also won't recognise fall off, fall on, the bus as different uses of 'off'. I rather doubt anything at all about these 'obvious' differences occurs to John Ramsay. Phil Innes > >> And so to nuts and bolts; if John Ramsay has any of either, let him > >> attach [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Phil Innes Sorry, Phil. You're still in self-contradiction. Why should I, in your own words. [See above.] 'won't recognize fall off, fall on, the bus as different uses of off' ? When 'on' and 'off' are different words? besides, this has nothing to do with the original question. Original question: Which is correct - knife fell off/off of the table. 31 Jan Phil Innes wrote : "Both are redundant." Should be "from the table." 03 Feb Phil Innes wrote : "Is there any substantive difference in meaning in 'fall from the table' and 'fall off the table'?" The self-contradiction is obvious but obviously not to Phil Innes. > Sorry, Phil. You're still in self-contradiction. > > Why should I, in your own words. [See above.] > > 'won't recognize fall off, fall on, the bus as > different uses of off' ? I don't know why you won't, John. I don't even know if you appreciate the difference. > When 'on' and 'off' are different words? > > besides, this has nothing to do with the original question. Does 'fall /on/ the bus' mean you fell from a skyscraper onto a bus? Fall off the bus means fall from it. Use of off and on are therefore /used/ differently in the same phrase. This has that much to do with the original question. > Original question: Which is correct - knife fell off/off of the table. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > The self-contradiction is obvious but obviously not to Phil Innes. I'll make this my last entry, since I already replied to John who hasn't chosen to notice the reply, that he has also failed to note that one message is a statement and the other is a question. Phil Innes |
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