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Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / June 2006gotten vs got
Which form would you prefer: gotten or got? What do you think of this? http://www.gotten.eu :) In your own trollish case 'misbegotten' would be the most appropriate. > Which form would you prefer: gotten or got? > > What do you think of this? > http://www.gotten.eu > > :) > Which form would you prefer: gotten or got? Tough one -- Both words have been with us "since always". ~Iain > > Which form would you prefer: gotten or got? > > Tough one -- Both words have been with us "since always". > > ~Iain The use of "gotten" is generally considered to be one of the chief indicators of North American origin. A common misconception by non-native speakers is that Americans/Canadians use it all the time as the past participle of the verb "get." Where "have got" means "have" or "possess," no North American uses "gotten": Amelda Marcos has gotten thousands of shoes. "Gotten" is generally used in all the other senses that the verb "get" can have, as in "become," "acquire," "receive," etc. I've gotten tired of being tired all the time. Joe's spending money like water. He's gotten a dozen rare stamps to add to his collection in the last few days. Has anyone here gotten a threatening phone call recently? Canadians are inconsistent in their use of gotten. Some use it all the time, some use it most of the time, and some try to avoid it completely. I would avoid it if you're trying to impress a Brit. On the other hand, if someone insists on correcting you and categorically states that "gotten" is utterly WRONG, well, you're dealing with an illiterate poseur, so add that to your stock of knowledge about the person, smile, and walk away. > Canadians are inconsistent in their use of gotten. Some use it all the > time, some use it most of the time, and some try to avoid it > completely. I am curious. What do you base this statement on? > I would avoid it if you're trying to impress a Brit. I would agree with this. I have had a Brit. correct my usage. Vic > > Canadians are inconsistent in their use of gotten. Some use it all the > > time, some use it most of the time, and some try to avoid it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Vic Sorry this took so long...My statement on what Canadians use or do not use is based on my personal experience with Canadians, both here in Greece and in the States. I meet a lot of them in the ELT business. I also saw an article on this in some TESOL magazine somewhere a few years back, but since I can't tell you where, well, that means less than nothing. My primary usage manual for British English, Fowler's Modern English Usage, 3rd edition, definitely calls it NORTH American, indicating that both Canadians and Americans use it in the same way, but R.W. Burchfield, the author, is occcasionally a bit strange about American English issues, and like all Brits tends to make overly general statements about American English. The Oxford Guide to English Usage makes no mention of "gotten." American Heritage Book of English Usage says nothing about Canadian English. Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage backs Burchfields up, though, in calling "gotten" a North American phenomenon. The Columbia Guide to Standard American English labels the phenomenon American and not North American. So, I have no definitive answer on what Canadians do or do not do with the word "gotten." ------------------ And as for what Brits do with "gotten," well, that's their problem. In the final analysis, most language usage questions are really arguments about nothing, until people start insisting that their usage is better than yours and therefore their minds are sharper than yours. If you want to fry your ignorant critic, however, there's a nice historical article on the phenomenon in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage. Ask about "aluminum" while you're at it. >> > Canadians are inconsistent in their use of gotten. Some use it all the >> > time, some use it most of the time, and some try to avoid it [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > historical article on the phenomenon in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of > English Usage. Ask about "aluminum" while you're at it. The Brits do indeed have a problem with 'gotten'. Shakespeare used it frequently. So any Brit that quibbles about 'got/gotten' can only be classified as misbegotten -:) <snip of my earlier post in this thread> > The Brits do indeed have a problem with 'gotten'. Shakespeare used it > frequently. So any Brit that quibbles about 'got/gotten' can only be > classified as misbegotten -:) Well, Americans went one way on "gotten," the British went another. I've spent six years here in Greece surrounded by British-based English language teaching materials and there's damn little understanding of issues in UK/US usage. Occasionally, that fact costs me a good deal of money, and I have a good stock of bitterness built up about it. All the same, I have yet to meet a Briton with a university degree worth more than a sheet of toilet paper who insisted that all Americans speak and write a miserable patois of a tongue and nothing more. The real quibblers among them are at best science graduates with delusions of grandeur, and at worst low trash, but misbegotten? No, I wouldn't go that far. At the same time, Americans have our Flipper Mikes to remind us just how far down the bottom of the barrel is in our poor nation. Canadians, John, well...tell us about got/gotten, could you? How does it work for you kids up there? Got any books on Canadian usage on your shelf? > <snip of my earlier post in this thread> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > of grandeur, and at worst low trash, but misbegotten? No, I wouldn't go > that far. We're getting close to agreement here. We both dislike pretentiousness in correcting the language of others. [I am particularly amused by Brits who assume because I no longer have an upper crust accent that I'm open game for their pretentiousness. I am a former Brit, with a father who did a stint an an ESL teacher. Fowler and Fowlers' 'The King's English' replaced daily bible readings in my Brit childhood.] You seem to have missed my point that Brit pretenders lay claim to the language of Shakespeare for usage support, yet often do not know Shakespeare's usage. An interesting self-contradiction. You also missed the fact that there was an -:) after 'misbegotten'. I have often used 'illgotten' and 'misbegotten' to illustrate to carpers that 'gotten' is a viable form. > At the same time, Americans have our Flipper Mikes to remind us just > how far down the bottom of the barrel is in our poor nation. > > Canadians, John, well...tell us about got/gotten, could you? How does > it work for you kids up there? Got any books on Canadian usage on your > shelf? Yeah, I got stuff on my shelf. Wot self-respectin English teach don't? Canadians tread a middle ground between US/Brit usage. The Houghton Mifflin Dictionary of Canadian English (based on The American Heritage Dictionary) was begun in 1969. My 1982 version simply lists 'got' as PT & PP of 'get'. And 'gotten' as PP of 'get'. Without further comment. This, despite the fact that above dictionary had a very impressive editorial board, including HL Smith, Prof of Linguistics at UB. All ready willing & able to make judgements on usage -:) [HL Smith a figure known or unknown to you in your undergrad days in upstate NY?] The Oxford Dictionary of Canadian English, disk version, lists 'got' as PT & PP and '"gotten" as N.Amer. usage of PP.' Not new if you consider Fowler's 1957 'Dictionary of American-English Usage' treatment of 'got/gotten.' Still on my shelf from undergrad days. Best advice is McGraw-Hill 'Handbook of English': 'Both "have got" and "have gotten" are acceptable terms. Your choice will depend upon your speech habits or on the rhythm of the sentence you are speaking or writing.' Betcha even the most pretentiously fastidious Brit would not say, 'I've got tired of you.' <mucho snip throughout this post> > [I am particularly amused by Brits who assume because I no longer have > an upper crust accent that I'm open game for their pretentiousness. > I am a former Brit, with a father who did a stint an an ESL teacher. > Fowler and Fowlers' 'The King's English' replaced daily bible readings > in my Brit childhood.] The Brothers Grimm indeed. My sympathies. > This, despite the fact that above dictionary had a very impressive > editorial board, including HL Smith, Prof of Linguistics at UB. > All ready willing & able to make judgements on usage -:) > > [HL Smith a figure known or unknown to you in your undergrad days > in upstate NY?] (First, he searches my posts, and then, he tests me...go figure.) Henry Lee Smith, Jr., Most famous work co-authored with George L. Trager, _An Outline of English Structure_, 1956. The magic of computers. It was a real bitch finding out what HL stood for. No, I'd never heard of the man before today, neither in my undergraduate days in NY nor in my postgraduate days in RI (next thing I know, you'll be searching admission records). After all, he died two years before I was born...(birth records now). So I'd say you've got some forty or so years on me. > Betcha even the most pretentiously fastidious Brit > would not say, 'I've got tired of you.' Mebbe. > <mucho snip throughout this post> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > (First, he searches my posts, and then, he tests me...go figure.) I did not search your posts. I simply read them. You said you were from upstate NY. I did an MA in English from Buff State - 1970 -72, at which time HL Smith was very much alive and one of America's leading linguistic profs at neighbouring UB. Natural enough for me to wonder if he was known to you. Or did you not study lingustics? > Henry Lee Smith, Jr., Most famous work co-authored with George L. > Trager, _An Outline of English Structure_, 1956. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > So I'd say you've got some forty or so years on me. If I've got 40 years on you you're only 24. Still in your salad days? >> Betcha even the most pretentiously fastidious Brit >> would not say, 'I've got tired of you.' > > Mebbe. <snip of previously posted material> > I did not search your posts. I simply read them. You said you > were from upstate NY. > > I did an MA in English from Buff State - 1970 -72, at which time HL Smith > was very > much alive and one of America's leading linguistic profs at neighbouring UB. The main campus, Amherst, of UB is a bit further off than 'neighboring', tain't it? > Natural enough for me to wonder if he was known to you. Or did you not study > lingustics? The reading of the vitae... My BA is in English Language and Literature, and I finished it in 1997. I should have my MA in Applied Linguistics--ELT done by the end of the year (let's hold my money holds out). My PhD in English Language and Literature got started and then stopped, due to circumstances beyond my control. Well, it's damned weird, but I began my higher education as a Mass Media/Communications major headed for a Journalism degree. I thought about going to UB, but Buffalo did not have a journalism department at the time. Therefore, my freshman year was spent at an institution located at 1300 Elmwood Avenue, with this strange art gallery called Albright-Knox across the street, and a beautiful park behind it spoiled only by the drug users huddled in the bushes next to the lake. The four bells up in the white-painted tower of Rockwell toll the half-hour a minute-and-a-half in advance of standard time. The ice fountain in front of Butler usually gets turned off in the winter. I spent my time at SUNYCAB up on the nineth floor of Porter Hall, and I once exposed the quad from my girlfriend's window in Perry Hall. I learned how to shoot pool in the Union, worked at the Bite over in the Moore Complex, cheered the Bengals, ate lousy souvlakia at Panos, and copy-edited the Record in my second semester. After my first year I went on a national student exchange to a place which I will call Moo Moo Mizzou, became disenchanted with journalism, and went off on a whole new tangent in my life at a place called Columbia Billiards. Now watch, there's a J-school grad out there who'll tell me the story of those big-a.s columns. > > Henry Lee Smith, Jr., Most famous work co-authored with George L. > > Trager, _An Outline of English Structure_, 1956. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > If I've got 40 years on you you're only 24. Still in your salad days? 31 and reluctantly heading for 32. And last but not least, sorry about the searching crack. It was a dumb thing to say. As John Dean so recently pointed out, I am capable of astonishing stupidity. <snippo of my own post> > (let's hold my money holds out). [sic] <more snippo> > cheered the Bengals, ate lousy souvlakia at Panos, and copy-edited the > Record in my second semester. Erm...correction...(let's hope my money holds out) As you can clearly and painfully see, my copy-editing leaves much to be desired. I should write these things in Word and paste them, but this little box is quite addictive. > <snip of previously posted material> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The main campus, Amherst, of UB is a bit further off than > 'neighboring', tain't it? 'Neighbouring' is a relative term. I went to Parkdale Collegiate in Toronto. Nearest Collegiate to Parkdale was Humberside Collegiate, quite some distance from Parkdale, yet it was customary to refer to them as neighbouring high schools. >> Natural enough for me to wonder if he was known to you. Or did you not >> study [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > 31 and reluctantly heading for 32. Don't be reluctant. Recall Tennyson's Ulysses: 'Yet all experience is an arch wherethro' gleams the untravelled world.' > And last but not least, sorry about the searching crack. It was a dumb > thing to say. As John Dean so recently pointed out, I am capable of > astonishing stupidity. Probably a hangover from that year at Buff State. Lucky for me I had a BA from UToronto before I went there -:) >>> Canadians are inconsistent in their use of gotten. Some use it all >>> the time, some use it most of the time, and some try to avoid it [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > English issues, and like all Brits tends to make overly general > statements about American English. Except Burchfield was a New Zealander (as was that other great contributor to matters of English usage, Eric Partridge) so maybe you mean "Like all Kiwis ..."?  SignatureJohn Dean Oxford <snip of windy > > My primary usage manual for British English, Fowler's Modern English > > Usage, 3rd edition, definitely calls it NORTH American, indicating [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > John Dean > Oxford John, that's absolutely right. Holy love of Mike, I cannot believe I just tossed that off and didn't think about it. |
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