Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / April 2006

"Is there any chance of my borrowing your type -writer?"

In the sentence above (representing a frequent construction) we ask about a
chance of SOMETHING. This SOMETHING is rendered here in the form of an act,
which is "borrowing someone's typewriter". If we ask about the performer of
this action, or WHOSE action it is, we obtain a reply which is included in
the original sentence, namely "MY borrowing your typewriter".

Regards, Mike

The sentence "Is there any chance of I borrowing your typewriter?" is
grammatically incorrect. As for the me/my issue I distinctly remember
answering this last month in this group, but here goes again.

In informal usage, there's nothing wrong with "...me borrowing your
typewriter?"

Americans tend to insist on the subject of such gerunds being in the
possessive form (also known as the genitive form) more than the British
do.

Thankfully, you don't have to take my word for it.

----------------

http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/028.html

The American Heritage® Book of English Usage.
A Practical and Authoritative Guide to Contemporary English.  1996.

1. Grammar: Traditional Rules, Word Order, Agreement, and Case

gerund

Gerunds are verb forms ending in -ing that act as nouns. They can be
the subject of a sentence (Skiing is her favorite sport), the object of
a verb (She enjoys skiing), or the object of a preposition (She devoted
her free time to skiing). Gerunds can be modified like nouns (That book
makes for difficult reading). But they can also act like verbs in that
they can take an object (Convincing him was never easy) and be modified
by an adverb (Walking daily can improve your health).

gerund and possessives (fused participle).

Some people insist that when a gerund is preceded by a noun or pronoun,
the noun or pronoun must be in the possessive case. Accordingly, it is
correct to say I can understand his wanting to go, but incorrect to say
I can understand him wanting to go. But the construction without the
possessive, sometimes called the fused participle, has been used by
respected writers for 300 years and is perfectly idiomatic. Moreover,
there is often no way to "fix" the construction by inserting the
possessive. This is often the case with common nouns. Thus you can say
We have had very few instances of luggage being lost, but not ... of
luggage's being lost.

Sometimes syntax makes using the possessive impossible. Consider the
sentence What she objects to is men making more money than women for
the same work. Changing men making to men's making not only sounds
awkward, but it requires women's at the other end to keep the
sentence parallel, and women's simply does not work. Perhaps for
these reasons 53 percent of the Usage Panel finds the phrase men making
acceptable in this sentence, and another 36 percent find it acceptable
in informal contexts. Only 11 percent reject it outright.

However, when the construction is more complicated so that a word or
phrase intervenes between the noun and the gerund, the panel is less
sanguine. Only 25 percent accept the sentence I can understand him not
wanting to go, where the negative not intervenes between the pronoun
and the gerund. Thirty-one percent say this sentence is acceptable in
informal contexts, leaving 44 percent who are naysayers. Panel
acceptance drops even further when the syntax gets more complicated.
Only 16 percent accept the sentence Imagine a child with an ear
infection who cannot get penicillin losing his hearing, where both a
phrase and a clause intervene between the noun child and the gerund
losing. And only 17 percent find this sentence acceptable in informal
contexts, so that 66 percent reject it roundly.

Be aware that sometimes nouns ending in -s can be confused with a
singular noun in the possessive. Thus I don't approve of your
friend's going there indicates one friend is going, and I don't
approve of your friends going there indicates that more than one friend
is going.

-------------------------------------

Another point from: http://www.bartleby.com/68/38/2738.html

Kenneth G. Wilson (1923-).  The Columbia Guide to Standard American
English.  1993.

GENITIVE BEFORE A GERUND

This construction, in which a noun or pronoun modifies a gerund (I
don't like his driving so fast, rather than I don't like him
driving so fast, or They felt that Mary's coming in late was bad,
rather than They felt that Mary coming in late was bad) was long
required in English classes. But for some time now either the genitive
(possessive) or the objective case has also been Standard before
gerunds, although Formal writing may use a bit more genitive with
pronouns than it does with nouns. Native speakers can now trust their
ears.

------------------------------

And lastly, from The Oxford Guide to English Usage, or rather from my
downloaded copy, which is probably illegal as hell, yet available at:

http://www.alleng.ru/english/txb.htm

...along with a hundred other useful and possibly illegally pirated
grammar and vocabulary texts. However, if you're curious enough about
English to have read this message up to this point, you deserve to
learn something of real value.

I would like to mention that I've also bought a print copy of this
particular book as a penance. The following is taken from pages 193-195
of the second edition (1993), it seems.

4.25 -ing (gerund and participle)

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

   1.  The -ing form of a verb can in some contexts be used in either
of two
       constructions:

       a.  as a gerund (verbal noun) with a noun or pronoun in the
possessive
           standing before it, e.g.

           In the event of Randall's not going (Iris Murdoch)
           She did not like his being High Church (L. P. Hartley)

       b.  as a participle with a noun in its ordinary form or a
pronoun in
           the objective case standing before it, e.g.

           What further need would there have been to speak of another
           priest arising? (NEB)
           Dixon did not like him doing that (Kingsley Amis)

       The option of using either arises only when the word before the
-ing
       form is a proper or personal noun (e.g.  John, father, teacher)
or a
       personal pronoun.

       It is sometimes said that the construction with the possessive
(as in
       (a) above) is obligatory. This rule, in its strict form, should
be
       disregarded. Instead one should, in formal usage, try to employ
the
       possessive construction wherever it is possible and natural:

       To whom, without its being ordered, the waiter immediately
       brought a plate of eggs and bacon (Evelyn Waugh)
       The danger of Joyce's turning them into epigrams
       (Anthony Burgess)

       But it is certainly not wrong to use the non-possessive
construction
       if it sounds more natural, as in the New English Bible
quotation
       above.

       Moreover, there is sometimes a nuance of meaning. She did not
like his
       being High Church suggests that she did not like the fact that
he was
       High Church, and need not imply personal antipathy, whereas
Dixon did
       not like him doing that suggests an element of repugnance to
the
       person as well as to his action.

       When using most non-personal nouns (e.g. luggage, meaning,
       permission), groups of nouns (e.g.  father and mother, surface
area),
       non-personal pronouns (e.g. anything, something), and groups of
       pronouns (e.g. some of them), there is no choice of
construction: the
       possessive would not sound idiomatic at all.

       Examples are:

       Travellers in Italy could depend on their luggage not
       being stolen (G. B. Shaw)
       Altogether removing possibility of its meaning being
       driven home (Anthony Powell)
       His lines were cited...without his permission having
       been asked (The Times)
       Due to her father and mother being married
       (Compton Mackenzie)
       Owing to its surface area being so large relative to
       its weight (George Orwell)
       The air of something unusual having happened
       (Arthur Conan Doyle)
       He had no objection to some of them listening
       (Arnold Bennett)

       When the word preceding the -ing form is a regular plural noun
ending
       in -s, there is no spoken distinction between the possessive
and the
       non-possessive form. It is unnecessary to write an apostrophe:

       If she knew about her daughters attending the party
       (Anthony Powell)

   ------------------------------------

Your adult student will find these articles impenetrable, so you are
stuck with the task of sifting through the information and coming up
with a way of explaining the phenomenon in a way that fits this
learner's level and needs. However, being able to produce a printout of
these articles will help you get over the rough spots of that
explanation.

Needless to say, only a churl would simply print out this entire post
and hand it to a student in lieu of an explanation.