Has anyone made equations out of English sentences?
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Scott Jensen - 08 May 2006 05:54 GMT I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that produce a sum. Or if someone has done it for another language and an English version of the rules has been done.
It might look something like:
"The raven is a black bird."
"raven = black + bird"
The idea being that you could take a document, use the rules to translate the English sentences into math equations, and distill it down into its informational parts and total them for what the document equaled in information.
So far my net search for this has turned up nothing. I am hoping it is simply because I'm not using the proper termnology when doing my search. If you can tell me the proper termnology for this sort of thing, that would be of great help. Or, better yet, if you could give URLs to where this stuff is located, that would be fantastic!
Thanks in advance!
Scott Jensen
John Ramsay - 08 May 2006 07:02 GMT Of course it's been done. Have you never heard of computer languages?
They convert language into a mathematical code.
You would not have been able to post your message without them.
>I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation >rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > ray o'hara - 08 May 2006 08:02 GMT > Of course it's been done. Have you never heard > of computer languages? [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > > >Scott Jensen That's not what he meant.
P.S. this isn't Jeopardy, the reply goes after the question. Top posting disruptes the natural flow of the conversation.
Stephen Calder - 08 May 2006 07:05 GMT > I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation > rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > informational parts and total them for what the document equaled in > information. I don't believe this is possible at the present level of technology.
It would make machine translation, for example, very simple and it ain't. Not yet.
Unless you're talking about a simple checksum. That's another story.
 Signature Stephen Lennox Head, Australia
Scott Jensen - 08 May 2006 09:06 GMT > Unless you're talking about a simple checksum. That's another > story. Simple checksum being?
Scott Jensen
izzy - 08 May 2006 09:53 GMT > Simple checksum being? An algorithmic device, such as a "check digit" that indicates if a simple transposition or substitution error has occurred in a string of digits.
Speaking of ravens, the Mad Hatter asked "Why is a raven like a writing desk". Izzy's answer is: The raven has a secret aerie. A writing desk is a secretary.
ciao, Israel "izzy" Cohen
Stephen Calder - 08 May 2006 10:00 GMT >>Unless you're talking about a simple checksum. That's another >>story. > > Simple checksum being? > > Scott Jensen Sometimes in order to verify that a document has not been altered, the number of each character in the document is used as part of a sum. Any alteration in the document changes the checksum.
 Signature Stephen Lennox Head, Australia
ray o'hara - 08 May 2006 07:10 GMT > I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation > rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > "raven = black + bird" black + bird need not equal raven. crows starlings,cowbirds, grackles not to mention several others are all black birds. A language that could be so reduced would be inadequate to the needs of communication.
Scott Jensen - 08 May 2006 09:08 GMT >> I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation >> rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > mention several others are all black birds. A language that could be so > reduced would be inadequate to the needs of communication. First, I gave the above as an example.
Second, it was meant to illustrate how the sentence could be translated. Yes, I know other birds are also black, but that's not what the sentence provided as information.
Scott Jensen
Titian - 08 May 2006 11:16 GMT >>> I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation >>> rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Scott Jensen Scott
look for a book called "The Maths Gene" by Keith Devlin which I believe approaches this idea from another direction....mathematical ability is related to the human brain inventing language (I think!)
Titian
Scott Jensen - 08 May 2006 18:40 GMT > look for a book called "The Maths Gene" by Keith Devlin > which I believe approaches this idea from another direction > ....mathematical ability is related to the human brain inventing > language (I think!) Thanks. I've requested it through my local public library.
Scott Jensen
ray o'hara - 08 May 2006 14:27 GMT > >> I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation > >> rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Scott Jensen I was showing how a simple sentence like that had too many variables.
Scott Jensen - 08 May 2006 18:30 GMT >> >> I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical >> >> translation rules that takes English sentences and converts them [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I was showing how a simple sentence like that had too many > variables. I think you read more into that than what I was doing. I was showing how that specific sentence would be converted. You brought in outside information that the sentence didn't provide and thought your information then invalidated the equation.
What I am seeking is a lead or ideally a URL to anyone that has attempted sentence conversion. I am not seeking perfect conversion. Just the conversion of sentences into mathematical equations.
Scott Jensen
Stephen Calder - 09 May 2006 00:34 GMT > I think you read more into that than what I was doing. I was showing how > that specific sentence would be converted. You brought in outside [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sentence conversion. I am not seeking perfect conversion. Just the > conversion of sentences into mathematical equations. You seek what is nonexistent.
 Signature Stephen Lennox Head, Australia
John Flynn - 09 May 2006 01:35 GMT > I think you read more into that than what I was doing. I was showing > how that specific sentence would be converted. You brought in outside > information that the sentence didn't provide and thought your > information then invalidated the equation. You're going to have to decide, though, how much 'outside information' to allow, since we don't utter sentences in complete isolation. We bring a huge amount of background knowledge to every interpretation of every sentence.
Consider interpreting the sentence: "Fred ate an ice-cream."
We already have the knowledge that "Fred" is probably a human being. Probably, but it's not certain. If we met this sentence out of nowhere, in perfect isolation, we would be best taking "Fred" to be a human. But if there were preceding context that identified "Fred" as being a parrot, then that would have to be brought into the interpretation and included in the 'equation' you're looking for. It would alter the meaning and maybe even the truth or believability of the sentence (thus affecting its usable information content).
Now, imagine if you met the following in the same perfectly isolated context: "Fred ate my homework." We would need to know from 'outside information' that "Fred" is now less likely to be a human. There's nothing in the sentence construction that changes this likelihood, so we *must* rely on 'outside information'. In fact, very specific 'outside information' (i.e., the cliché about my dog eating my homework) narrows the interpretation even further. The informational content of the sentence now includes some implications that "Fred" is actually a dog, not just that he ate my homework. The information is there to be extracted so isn't it a good idea to include it in any equation suggested to derive the informational content? To do so, however, means working out some way of accommodating when and where to use the 'outside information' we bring to the recovery of the sentence's meaning.
Then, consider these sentences: "The dog ate my letter." "The fax machine ate my letter." To work out what information these are giving us, we would need to resort to things that are not explicitly stated in the sentences themselves.
The short answer is that attempts to reduce natural language to neat and tidy semantic formalisms are immensely difficult unless one is willing to either: 1. Restrict the available definitions that your words can have (i.e., so every word can have one meaning and one meaning only) and/or restrict the type of sentences that you can process in this system (e.g., only process "X is Y" types). Or: 2. Accept that there will be a whole heap of manual tweaking to make sure the intended interpretation is extracted (i.e., bring in all the unstated implications and presuppositions that we don't bother mentioning because the context and our own world- knowledge fill in the gaps).
 Signature johnF "We do not have to believe this stuff, just because it was said centuries or millennia ago by immensely famous men." -- _Educating Eve_, Geoffrey Sampson
Chris Croughton - 09 May 2006 12:47 GMT > I think you read more into that than what I was doing. I was showing how > that specific sentence would be converted. You brought in outside > information that the sentence didn't provide and thought your information > then invalidated the equation. However, you need that "outside information" in order to parse the sentence. Consider the canonical ambiguous sentence:
Time flies like an arrow.
There are at least three ways of parsing that:
Simile: time flies (verb) like (in a similar way) an arrow [flies]
Eating habits: "time flies" (some sort of insect) like (verb) an arrow [to eat] (compare "fruit flies like a banana")
Command: [You] time [those] flies like (in a similar way) an arrow [times flies]
Which is correct? Only context can determine it, and not always then.
> What I am seeking is a lead or ideally a URL to anyone that has attempted > sentence conversion. I am not seeking perfect conversion. Just the > conversion of sentences into mathematical equations. What you are asking for is a general algorithm for parsing natural language. It doesn't exist, if it did those who created it would be making a lot of money. But even humans can't unambiguously parse natural language, as shown above, let alone put it into a pseudo-mathematical language. Even computer languages like Prolog still have very rigid syntax compared to natural languages.
Note that the term 'equation' implies equality, as in your "raven = black + bird", but that isn't the information actually conveyed by the sentence "a raven is a black bird". The actual information is more complex, and is more accurately stated in English as "a raven is a type of bird which is also black". In a pseudo-mathematical form, where => is the relationship 'implies':
raven => object(type=bird, colour=black)
A crow would also have the same description, as would a blackbird and many others (assuming that the colour is the main colour, all of them also have other colours as well, for instance yellow beaks). It isn't an equality, not all birds coloured black are ravens.
Chris C
Don Phillipson - 08 May 2006 15:11 GMT > >> I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation > >> rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Yes, I know other birds are also black, but that's not what the sentence > provided as information. This is just the point . . . "That's not what the sentence provided as information" is a valid defence in this debate only if we can cite accepted rules of meaning or logic that would substantiate: A: "The raven is a black bird." B: "raven = black + bird" C: black + bird need not equal raven Therefore D: proposition C contradicts either A: or B (or both.)
We have no such rules, i.e. neither linguists nor machine translators nor philosophers have yet found rules of information of such power as to decide disputes of this type. But we know: 1. Natural languages have evolved and continue to change. They are nowadays understood better than 50+ years ago, but we hope our understanding of natural languages will improve much more. 2. Formal languages can be created and understood in detail -- but probably incompletely, perhaps never completely (cf. Godel etc.)
 Signature Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
Scott Jensen - 08 May 2006 18:38 GMT >> >> I am interested to know if anyone has developed >> >> mathematical translation rules that takes English [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > C: black + bird need not equal raven > Therefore D: proposition C contradicts either A: or B (or both.) Actually, no, it can be "black + bird = raven", if that is all that "black + bird" totals in the database.
> We have no such rules, i.e. neither linguists nor machine translators > nor philosophers have yet found rules of information of such power [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- but probably incompletely, perhaps never completely (cf. > Godel etc.) It is hard for me to imagine that no one has ever attempted what I propose. I'm not asking for prefection. I don't care if it only works with simple sentences. Can someone at least point me to a newsgroup, website, university, or somewhere that might know of such an attempt?
Scott Jensen
Philip Baker - 09 May 2006 01:43 GMT >I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation >rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >of great help. Or, better yet, if you could give URLs to where this stuff >is located, that would be fantastic! You might want to take a look at the Prolog programming language.
 Signature Philip Baker
Scott Jensen - 09 May 2006 02:55 GMT > You might want to take a look at the Prolog programming > language. Thanks. I will.
Scott Jensen
jwlawler@yahoo.com - 09 May 2006 09:35 GMT > I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation > rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Thanks in advance! You may have more success with
"raven => black + bird"
rather than
"raven = black & bird"
Where => is intended to be the "implies" sign in logic. Ignoring the subtleties mentioned by many of the others, this is now true and is not contradicted by the fact that there are black birds which are not ravens. = is symmetric i.e. if a = b then b = a. => is not symmetric if a => b then it is possible that b => is not true. Sadly, assuming b => a from a => b is a common mistake.
Provided the statements are quite simple, you can phrase them like this and perform some useful mathematical analysis and make some deductions. Use rules of logic such as if a => b and b => c then a => c. Books on elementary logic should be useful.
However, remembering the comments by the others, even this approach fails when given more real world statements in which the meaning of words depends on the context (including non-linguistic context). Natural language is too far from mathematical logic.
-- Seán O'Leathlóbhair
jwlawler@yahoo.com - 09 May 2006 09:38 GMT > I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation > rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Thanks in advance! You may have more success with
"raven => black & bird"
rather than
"raven = black + bird"
Where => is intended to be the "implies" sign in logic. Ignoring the subtleties mentioned by many of the others, this is now true and is not contradicted by the fact that there are black birds which are not ravens. = is symmetric i.e. if a = b then b = a. => is not symmetric if a => b then it is possible that b => is not true. Sadly, assuming b => a from a => b is a common mistake.
Provided the statements are quite simple, you can phrase them like this and perform some useful mathematical analysis and make some deductions. Use rules of logic such as if a => b and b => c then a => c. Books on elementary logic should be useful.
However, remembering the comments by the others, even this approach fails when given more real world statements in which the meaning of words depends on the context (including non-linguistic context). Natural language is too far from mathematical logic.
-- Seán O'Leathlóbhair
Robert - 16 Jun 2006 22:20 GMT It was tried, but in a complete other way. They developed rules like sentence = noun phrase(NP) + verbal phrase noun phrase = article + adjective + nomen verbal phrase = verb + noun phrase
But they(i have forgotten who) nevder did this on the level of meaning, because you can never say anything without using context knowledge. If you are more intrested in this topic I can suggest you read
Singer, M. (1990). Psychology of language: An introduction to sentence and discourse processes. There he gives a very detailed explanation how it was tried to modell the language in a mathematical way and how they failed. Hope it helps Robert
On 09 Mai 2006, you wrote in alt.languages.english:
>> I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical >> translation rules that takes English sentences and converts them into [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > "raven = black + bird" Scott Jensen - 19 Jun 2006 19:17 GMT > Singer, M. (1990). Psychology of language: An introduction > to sentence and discourse processes. > There he gives a very detailed explanation how it was tried > to modell the language in a mathematical way and how they > failed. > Hope it helps Thanks! I will get that book.
Scott Jensen
Pavel314 - 10 May 2006 01:26 GMT >I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation >rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > "raven = black + bird" Your question reminds me of several courses in symbolic logic which I took back in college where we did that sort of thing. Qualities were symbolized, like BI(x) to mean "x is a bird" and BL(x) to mean "x is black."
Your statement above would be translated as RV(x) ==> BI(x) & BL(x), if x is a raven then x is a bird and x is black. This is not the logical equivalent to saying "If x is a bird and x is black then x is a raven".
Then there were the quantifiers, the existential quantifier E(x) meaning "there exists an x" and the universal quantifier A(x) meaning "for all x". (In the book, the E was written backwards and the A upside down, but I have limited font here.) Google "universal quantifier" to get some links to the subject. I remember doing lots of fun things with these. For example, your statement might translate as:
A(x) [ RV(x) ==> BI(x) & BL(x) ] ==> E(x) [ BI(x) & BL(x) & RV(x) ]
There were formal rules for manipulating the quantifiers and qualifiers, most of which I've forgotten long ago. Try asking for help on sci.logic or sci.math.symbolic.
Paul
Chris Croughton - 10 May 2006 08:16 GMT > Your question reminds me of several courses in symbolic logic which I took > back in college where we did that sort of thing. Qualities were symbolized, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > (In the book, the E was written backwards and the A upside down, but I have > limited font here.) More to the point, the rest of us have limited fonts as well (I would be surprised if Unicode doesn't have the backward E and upside-down A, but I don't have any font which could cope).
> Google "universal quantifier" to get some links to the > subject. I remember doing lots of fun things with these. For example, your > statement might translate as: > > A(x) [ RV(x) ==> BI(x) & BL(x) ] ==> E(x) [ BI(x) & BL(x) & RV(x) ] The sad thing is that I read that straight off and understood it, and I haven't done symbolic logic for almost 30 years. It seams that I do still use it internally even though I've forgotten most of the names of things (I am frequently annoyed at the number of people who think that [A => B] => [B => A])...
> There were formal rules for manipulating the quantifiers and qualifiers, > most of which I've forgotten long ago. Try asking for help on sci.logic or > sci.math.symbolic. Converting a natural language into symbolic logic, which seems to be what the OP is wanting to do, is however not generally possible. In natural language it is possible, even easy, to say things which make no sense, like the canonical "This sentence is a lie" which caused a lot of computers in Star Trek to blow up, which are not possible to express in symbolic logic without an obvious error. And there are ambiguities like "time flies like an arrow" which can't be parsed mechanically without extra information (although not all languages are as bad, that phrase in an inflected language like Latin is not ambiguous).
[Note followup, if you override it please indicate in which newsgroup you are reading this post.]
Chris C
ceceliaarmstrong@yahoo.com - 11 May 2006 23:36 GMT > I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation > rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that > produce a sum. Or if someone has done it for another language and an > English version of the rules has been done. >[snip] Are you looking for something that will make the meaning of the sentence easy to find? Prove that certain sentences are gibberish? Tease out underlying hidden meanings?
Fifty years ago, general semantics was important to some, and used by some to boil down political (and other) screeds to see what had really been said. http://www.general-semantics.org/about.htm
Cece
Bill Bonde ('The path is clear, though no eyes can see') - 14 May 2006 00:00 GMT > I am interested to know if anyone has developed mathematical translation > rules that takes English sentences and converts them into equations that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > "raven = black + bird" How would this work for something beyond the copula? And how is that a 'sum'?
> The idea being that you could take a document, use the rules to translate > the English sentences into math equations, and distill it down into its > informational parts and total them for what the document equaled in > information. > > So far my net search for this has turned up nothing. Read back the previous bit of quoted paragraph and ask why that might be.
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