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credoquaabsurdum - 06 Jun 2006 02:26 GMT
Only recently have I realized that "no one" does not translate into
Greek. This is a serious problem when teaching Greeks English. It is
linked to the biggest problem I have, that Greeks believe that the
Greek language is the richest language in the world, to an extent only
mildly exaggerated in the film _My Big Fat Greek Wedding_.

This attitude is related to the general belief here that Greeks are the
brightest of all the peoples of the world, the best-looking, and the
finest lovers. In addition, they cook the best food, wear the finest
fashions, are the only true believers in Christendom, and possess a
number of other extraordinary attributes.

Now granted, we all have to deal with such attitudes in language
teaching, and as educated citizens of our new multicultural world,
gently deflect them in polite ways, but does this particular prejudice,
the belief that My Language is Better Than English, closely linked to I
Am Better Than You, significantly hinder anyone else out there who does
this job? Is there is a sure and certain tactic for getting by it once
and for all? By getting by it, I do not mean whipping a list of
statistics out and "proving" that English is the richest language in
the world, that those who speak English are the brightest in the world,
the best-looking, blah, blah, blah.

Exercises in equal-opportunity bigotry would simply get me beaten up
while the police looked on and laughed. That's pretty much the fate of
anyone of any ethnic minority who questions the veracity of this
judgment here. Granted, it happens more frequently to Albanians and
Russians than Americans, but it still happens.

Thank you. I'm at my wits' end here.
Einde O'Callaghan - 06 Jun 2006 06:04 GMT
credoquaabsurdum schrieb:
> Only recently have I realized that "no one" does not translate into
> Greek. This is a serious problem when teaching Greeks English. It is
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Thank you. I'm at my wits' end here.

It's not a problem that I really have to face here in Germany, but I
would tend not to get involved in arguments about better or worse, etc.
The simple fact is that English is more widely spoken than Greek and
that is why people are learning it (or perhaps have to learn it). In
this case, it is neither here nor there whether Greek can say something
more elegantly than English. The only relevant fact is that if they
don't learn English then they won't be able to communicate with the
overwhelming majority of non-Greeks, whereas if they do learn English
they'll be able to do so with a fair, even if still modest, proportion
of humanity. This has nothing to do with the intrinsic merits or
demerits of either language, but is simply a result of historical
development in the last few centuries.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
John Ramsay - 06 Jun 2006 16:33 GMT
> Only recently have I realized that "no one" does not translate into
> Greek. This is a serious problem when teaching Greeks English. It is
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Thank you. I'm at my wits' end here.

The answer is quite logical.

Tell them that you're getting paid to
teach them English.

They're not getting paid to teach you Greek.

If they quibble at that, remind them that the
Greeks invented logic, and, in not being
logical about matters, they're not being
very good Greeks -:)
Leszek L. - 07 Jun 2006 12:24 GMT
> Only recently have I realized that "no one" does not translate into
> Greek. This is a serious problem when teaching Greeks English. It is

What exactly is the problem? Do you find it impossible to convey
the meaning of "no one" to them? Even by using circumlocution?
Are they trying to convince you that the expression has no sense
and should be dropped from the English language?

> This attitude is related to the general belief here that Greeks are the
> brightest of all the peoples of the world, the best-looking, and the
> finest lovers. In addition, they cook the best food, wear the finest

There is no point in arguing. If they insist that Greece is older than
the US, or even the UK, just agree with them!

Cheers,
Leszek.
credoquaabsurdum - 08 Jun 2006 21:24 GMT
<snip of my post>

> What exactly is the problem? Do you find it impossible to convey
> the meaning of "no one" to them? Even by using circumlocution?
> Are they trying to convince you that the expression has no sense
> and should be dropped from the English language?

<more snip>

Part of the problem is that the Greeks are indeed lucky in that their
language has a rich basic word stock. This flexibility, much bemoaned
by Greek schoolteachers here when they have to teach a greater range of
vocabulary to get Greeks to achieve what is considered basic fluency in
the language, means that there is a good deal of perfect one-to-one
correspondence between many words in English and Greek.

The flexibility comes from the fact that Greek has a gigantic word
stock to choose from hanging around in the four roots of Modern Greek,
the demotic, colloquial Greek that is spoken in households and largely
borrows from Italian, French, and English to handle everyday words,
educated vocabulary borrowed from "katharevousa," a nineteenth-century
version of Greek which was developed to deal with expanding the folk
language into a language that could handle a wide range of official
uses, Church Greek, or Koine Greek used in the New Testament and its
development, and finally, the Attic Greek of Athens's Golden Age in
antiquity.

Yet every language has roots. Greeks learn as much basic vocabulary as
they do, drawing deeply on these four roots, largely as a patriotic
duty to the Fatherland. There is a well-developed myth here that the
Powers-That-Be (chiefly, of course, the Great Satan) have been
colluding for generations in a gigantic conspiracy to strip the Greeks
of their language and in turn, their identity. I realize how ridiculous
this sounds, but it's a myth. For the American readers of this Board,
do you remember the widespread skepticism that glastnost was met with
in the late eighties on the part of many Americans, who believed that
Russian openness was a prelude to World War 3? It's much the same
thing, and one person is not going to change this.

-----------------------------

Simply the fact that "no one" represents a new, fundamentally basic
concept to them is deeply troubling to the myth. If this item and a few
others is not handled properly on my part, a socio-affective filter can
slam over their understanding of the language. They turn me off: I turn
from being a simple teacher to a representative of the Great Satan. For
those of you familiar with the film _American History X_, do you
remember the scene when the father turns to his son and points out to
him, "Don't listen to what that nigger teacher says. It's all nigger
bullshit!" Quietly, in the privacy of his home, the boy is set on the
pathway of racism.

You can actually see the change happening in their eyes when you do "no
one" with them. Imagine the fundamental instability to Western
mathematicians that a personal introduction to the number zero must
have caused. Suddenly, their understanding of themselves was deeply
troubled, and their conscious and unconscious beliefs in their
supremacy fundamentally challenged.

Now this is all a wonderful introduction to the power of language to
cut across divides, but I generally have one year to take woefully
underprepared students and turn them in to successful examination
candidates. I do not have time to grapple with the mysteries of self
and purpose that a deeper appreciation of any language evokes. Nor do I
have time to flatly point out that English has a word that Greek
doesn't, that this is its meaning, and then move on. UP goes the
drawbridge on their willingness to learn, and I start to grow the horns
of the Great Satan.

So what I'm asking is simple. Some of you out there live in
fundamentally anti-American, anti-British nations like Greece. Some of
you might even get shot at from time to time in the course of
performing your work: I am well aware my situation could be far worse
than it is here. Does it ever affect the basic nature of what you do as
ELTs, and in what way? How do you deal with it?
Leszek L. - 09 Jun 2006 12:10 GMT
> Simply the fact that "no one" represents a new, fundamentally basic
> concept to them is deeply troubling to the myth. If this item and a few
> others is not handled properly on my part, a socio-affective filter can
> slam over their understanding of the language. They turn me off: I turn

Amazing. I suppose they do have a way to say the equivalent of
"There does not exist a human being X such that..."? Perhaps what
is so threateningly new to them is that "no one" can be used as a subject
in a sentence, replacing my convoluted negated quantifier above?

And to think that such a difference in vocabulary can add to the image
of the Great Satan, and slam the door between you and your students...
I have met such frames of mind in _extremely_ undereducated Poles,
neglected children, six-generation peasants (grandchildren of bonded serfs),
whom the very mention of, say, the Chinese language may cause
to giggle, but students? Grammercy horse!

Good luck,
Leszek.
John Ramsay - 09 Jun 2006 17:15 GMT
><snip of my post>
>
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
>
>  

Leszek's point about circumlocution is well taken.

The ancient Greeks did have a circumlocuitous
process of making someone they didn't want
to hear from a non-person, a zero, a no one.

It was called ostracism.

[They didn't invent it. They got it from Egypt.]

Sounds like they're holding an ostrakophoria
on credoquaabsurdum, like they did on Sokrates.

Either leave Athens or partake of the hemlock.

Remind them, credoquaabsurdum, that they do need
6,000 votes to do it to you -:)

And in plain terms tell them Greek does have
a term for  'no one'. Surely there's a modern
Greek derivative for 'ostracized' or 'the ostracized one'.

Or has 'ostracism' permanently left the Greek language
and now exists only in English?
SherLok Merfy - 16 Jun 2006 08:51 GMT
> Only recently have I realized that "no one" does not translate into Greek.

That's what I get out of http://babelfish.altavista.com/ when I put "no
one" into it
and had it translate to Greek. Don't ask me what it sounds like. If it
doesn't look
like Greek to you, then try the translator yourself.
credoquaabsurdum - 18 Jun 2006 01:55 GMT
> > Only recently have I realized that "no one" does not translate into Greek.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> doesn't look
> like Greek to you, then try the translator yourself.

Oh, trust me, it looks like Greek to me. The problem is that it isn't
exactly the same thing, or used in the same way. There are actually two
words in Modern Greek for the concept of "no one," one from demotic
Greek (the form listed) and one from katharevousa Greek, the Latinate
spelling of which is "kaneis." "Kanena" really means "none." The form
ending in "s" is a person-equivalent to that. "No one" is not a simple
person-equivalent to "none."

Therein lies the rub, along with other assorted noun declension issues.
This is how it works:

No one was there. = Kanenas eitan ekei.

Not one ("one" being a pronoun here) was there. =  Kanena eitan ekei.

I didn't seen anyone. = Den eida kanenas.

I saw no one. = Den eida kanenas.

Not even one (ibid) was there. = Kanena den eitan ekei. (Double
negatives are quite common in Greek.)

Mix that in with the fact that the "s" in normal conversational speech
is routinely disappears, and teaching "no one" as a concept becomes a
CF of glorious proportions.

I, of course, say this as a Greek-American, one of those kids who just
had one nationality to put up on the board in Social Studies class.
I've also spent six years living here and spend far too much of my time
speaking Greek.

Anyway, I really appreciate all your comments in this thread. It did
bring things into perspective.
 
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