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Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / December 2003Use of thee and thou
My Dear Fellowmen, Can you use "thee" or "Thee" to refer to God? Is it correct to say "I see Thee"? What are the correct usages of "thee"? Please show examples. When do you use "thou" or "Thou"? Thank you for your help. Best regards, Aristeo Canlas Fernando peace888@yehey.com (Peace Crusader) wrote on 05 Dec 2003: > My Dear Fellowmen, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > What are the correct usages of "thee"? Please show examples. > When do you use "thou" or "Thou"? We don't use these forms anymore. They are archaic and exist in contemporary speech only as parts of stock phrases taken from the King James version of the Bible (and probably a couple of other old versions), from Shakespeare ("Get thee to a nunnery"), and from other documents and old literature. You can call God whatever you want to as long as you don't upset any oversensitive Muslim with a weapon in his hands.  SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. | > What are the correct usages of "thee"? Please show examples. | > When do you use "thou" or "Thou"? Thou is the old second person singular. It is rarely used these days in standard English, but remains prevalent in many dialects. I / thou / he / she Me / thee / him / her My / thy / his / her Mine / thine / his / hers I see thee. I see thee drink thy cider. This cider is thine. Hast thou washed thy hands? | We don't use these forms anymore. They are archaic and exist in | contemporary speech only as parts of stock phrases taken from | the King James version of the Bible (and probably a couple of | other old versions), from Shakespeare ("Get thee to a nunnery"), | and from other documents and old literature. Hast tha never been to Yorkshire? Or Somerset? Owain "Owain" <owain41276@stirlingcity.co.uk> wrote on 05 Dec 2003: >| > What are the correct usages of "thee"? Please show examples. >| > When do you use "thou" or "Thou"? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Hast tha never been to Yorkshire? Or Somerset? I don't think so. London and Devonshire. I was speaking only of American English, though. I do believe that the stricter Mennonite sects in middle America might still use "thee" and "thou" --- if they don't use German --- but they comprise such a small percentage of American speakers and are so isolated that most Americans don't hear that kind of language except in productions of Shakespeare's plays or readings of the Bible or older English literature. Maybe in DH Lawrence, though. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. Dear Owain, Franke, Adrian and my Fellowmen, Thank you for your responses and your help. I think I am confident to refer to God using the word "Thee" as second person, singular, as in "I see Thee". I have found some examples in the King James Version of the Holy Bible wherein "thee" implicitly refers to God the Father, such as: John 11:41 -- Jesus said, "Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me." John 17:1 -- Jesus prayed, "Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:" John 17:3-4 -- And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth:" Also, I found the following from Webster's Third New International Dictionary, wherein "thee" is defined as follows: "2 archaic: THYSELF -- used reflexively as indirect object of a verb <get ~ a sword -- Shak.> or object of a preposition <when Thou tookest upon Thee to deliver man -- Te Deum Laudamus> or direct object of a verb <thou bearest ~ like a king -- Shak.>" Is "I see Thee." using "thee" as direct object of a verb? Best regards, Aristeo Canlas Fernando, Peace Crusader, ICD Motto: pro aris et focis http://www.geocities.com/peacecrusader888/ > Dear Owain, Franke, Adrian and my Fellowmen, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I have found some examples in the King James Version of the Holy Bible > wherein "thee" implicitly refers to God the Father, such as: At that time "thou", "thee", "thy" and "thine" were the normal forms of the second person singular pronoun. They weren't particularly used to address God or any person of the Trinity. Jesus, for example, told one of the cripples he healed "Take up thy bed and walk". > Is "I see Thee." using "thee" as direct object of a verb? "Thee" is the object form of "thou". In this sentence it is functioning as the object of "see", a verb that normally only has one object (which, I suppose, could be referred to as the direct object). Regards, Einde O'Callaghan . Jesus, for example, told one > of the cripples he healed "Take up thy bed and walk". Actually He couldn't have said so as He didn't speak English. At least He didn't use it in his teaching. > peace888@yehey.com (Peace Crusader) wrote on 05 Dec 2003: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > versions), from Shakespeare ("Get thee to a nunnery"), and from other > documents and old literature. Franke's right, but to help you a bit more, "thou" is the subject pronoun ("Wherefore art thou?" = modern English "What are you doing here?") and "thee" is the object pronoun (Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?). (Both pronouns are still used in dialects, "thee" being used as the subject pronoun in some of them.) And yes, the bible uses these words when God is being addressed. Adrian >> peace888@yehey.com (Peace Crusader) wrote on 05 Dec 2003: >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Adrian Um, no, 'wherefore' in Juliet's speech means 'why'? From the balcony she's asking the (absent) Romeo 'why are you Romeo?', because his family is fueding with hers and so he is forbidden as a lover for her - she's asking why does he have to be him, rather than someone else. "Three civil brawls, bred of an airy word, By thee, old Capulet, and Montague". Seems a fairly good quote to go with. DC Cat SignatureUsing M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ <snip> > You can call God whatever you want to as long as you don't upset any > oversensitive Muslim with a weapon in his hands. and of course no one questions whether that comment is helpful or not. I'm sure the Bible does use 'thou' forms when people address God. ("Thou layest a table before me..."?) This does seem slightly strange though, as the 'thee/thou' archaic form in English was a familiar 't' form, analogous to 'tu' French, 'du' German and other W European usages. Respect for one's creator should surely imply the 'you' form.... Sithee DC Cat > My Dear Fellowmen, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Best regards, > Aristeo Canlas Fernando Oh my God, I top posted!!!!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! > Oh my God, I top posted!!!!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! > Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! And for your penance you will do ... Regasrds, Einde O'Callaghan "Einde O'Callaghan" wrote | > Oh my God, I top posted!!!!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! | > Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! | And for your penance you will do ... What's the exchange rate - ten Arghs to one Hail Mary? :-) Owain > | Django Cat wrote: > | > Oh my God, I top posted!!!!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Owain I thoughta the answer was plena. m. >>| Django Cat wrote: >>| > Oh my God, I top posted!!!!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! Argh!!!!!!!! [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I thoughta the answer was plena. > m. I thought it was how many idulgences you got for a number of ejaculations. To turn the discussion back to the thee thou thing... The thee and thou were intended to be more informal or more friendly. James wanted his Bible to be more accessible to his subjects, and the "you" was more formal or used in the presence of soembody superior or in instances where formality was called for. Shakespeare used both and usually got the proper usage correct. In Othello for example, Othello talks to his wife and uses "thee" while in the same scene addresses the Duke by "you" Peace, Tim | To turn the discussion back to the thee thou thing... | The thee and thou were intended to be more informal or more [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | In Othello for example, Othello talks to his wife and uses "thee" | while in the same scene addresses the Duke by "you" I came across the following Yorkshire saying, which shows a parallel with 'tutoyer' in French - the inappropriate use of the informal thou. I hope I've spelt everything correctly from memory. Don't tha thee me. Tha thee thyssen. Owain |
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