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Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / February 2004Pronoun placement - "Jack and we. . ."
While I know it is common usage to place I, we, me and us after another noun or pronoun in a sentence, I wonder if it is ever acceptable not to do so. For example, it sounds better to me to say, "We and Jack went to the movies," than to say "Jack and we went to the movies." Of course, even better is "We went to the movies with Jack." Is there a rule governing placement of pronouns? Is there any leeway here? Thank you. cksilve@emory.edu (cksilve) wrote on 19 Feb 2004: > While I know it is common usage to place I, we, me and us after > another noun or pronoun in a sentence, I wonder if it is ever [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Is there a rule governing placement of pronouns? Is there any > leeway here? I don't think there's a grammatical rule --- at least, I've never seen one. But it is idiomatic to say "Jack and I went to the movies" rather than "I and Jack went to the movies". Neither is grammatically incorrect, but the second is socially questionable. I think "[NAME] and we went" is a relatively rare construction. My ear, like yours, prefers "We and [NAME]", but I don't agree that "We went to the movies with Jack" is necessarily a better choice; it depends on context and what the important new information is.  SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. > cksilve@emory.edu (cksilve) wrote on 19 Feb 2004: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I think "[NAME] and we went" is a relatively rare construction. My ear, > like yours, prefers "We and [NAME]", Interestingly, with "I", "[name] and I" is preferred. > but I don't agree that "We went to > the movies with Jack" is necessarily a better choice; it depends on > context and what the important new information is. I think it sounds odd ("we and Jack") partly because many, if not most, dialects have "us and Jack"/"Jack and us" in this position. This leaves "we and Jack" sounding hopelessly affected and therefore the circumlocution with "with" is preferred. Adrian Signatureb. England 1966; SE Cheshire -1986; Birmingham to date "Adrian Bailey" <dadge@hotmail.com> wrote on 19 Feb 2004: >> cksilve@emory.edu (cksilve) wrote on 19 Feb 2004: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Interestingly, with "I", "[name] and I" is preferred. Most definitely. I think because "we" is a plural form there is no pressing social reason to put it after someone else's name. It's not seen as egocentric the way "I and Jack" usually sounds. >> but I don't agree that "We went to >> the movies with Jack" is necessarily a better choice; it depends [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > This leaves "we and Jack" sounding hopelessly affected and > therefore the circumlocution with "with" is preferred. I agree that it conjures up "us and Jack", which is unacceptable in my dialect and standard English when that is the subject of the sentence. I also agree that some other construction would almost always sound better, but I think there are more choices than "We went with Jack". It all depends on the question being answered, IMHO. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. Follow polite order. Always put yourself last (including when you are par of the pronoun). The pronoun "you" always comes first because if the writer or speaker is using "you" then he is adressing someone directly and it is only "polite" to address the acutal audience first. > While I know it is common usage to place I, we, me and us after > another noun or pronoun in a sentence, I wonder if it is ever [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Thank you. Bill Bonde ( Straight invective is not satire; satire must deliberately overshoot its mark. ) - 24 Feb 2004 01:10 GMT > Follow polite order. Always put yourself last (including when you are par > of the pronoun). The pronoun "you" always comes first because if the writer > or speaker is using "you" then he is adressing someone directly and it is > only "polite" to address the acutal audience first. I've wondered whether the expression 'me and George', say, as a subject wasn't using the oblique case because the speaker is trying to be polite. Flat out nobody ever says "I and George" for a subject. I think the problem with "Jack and we" and "We and Jack" is that 'we' in English includes everybody who went, therefore why explicitly state any one of the participants? Thinking about it, it's probably ruder to leave some of the poor folks as pronouns, I mean other than the speaker. "Bill Bonde ( Straight invective is not satire; satire must deliberately overshoot its mark. )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote on 23 Feb 2004: >> Follow polite order. Always put yourself last (including when >> you are par of the pronoun). The pronoun "you" always comes [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > trying to be polite. Flat out nobody ever says "I and George" for > a subject. EFL students often do because they don't know the social cenvention behind the preference for "George and I". > I think the problem with "Jack and we" and "We and Jack" is that > 'we' in English includes everybody who went, therefore why > explicitly state any one of the participants? Thinking about it, > it's probably ruder to leave some of the poor folks as pronouns, I > mean other than the speaker. I agree, but if what Jack did or what we did with Jack is the topic, then it's necessary to focus on Jack and "we". SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor. |
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