Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching
Learnglish.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / April 2004



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Phonetics trouble

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Nox Qs - 22 Apr 2004 20:04 GMT
Hi,

I am absolutely troubled by translation of a number of words from
phonetic script into ordinary english.

Even worse, I do not even know how to transcribe them here! I do not
know how to write with the phonetics on my computer.

One word I am able to transcribe - is "pleiz" (like "place", but with
"z" instead of "s" at the end. Which word is that?

Another word is "pua" ... which word is that?

Yet another is "hau". (My guess is that this is "how")

Thanks
Spiderman
Gerard van Wilgen - 22 Apr 2004 21:16 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> One word I am able to transcribe - is "pleiz" (like "place", but with
> "z" instead of "s" at the end. Which word is that?

Perhaps "plays"?

Gerard van Wilgen
Signature

www.majstro.com  (On-line translation dictionary / Enreta tradukvortaro)
www.travlang.com/Ergane (Free translation dictionary for Windows / Senpaga
tradukvortaro por Windows)

Bill Bonde ( ''Stop this farce!'' ''Which one?'' ) - 22 Apr 2004 21:57 GMT
> > Hi,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Perhaps "plays"?

Or 'please' or 'plies'. A dictionary that let you look up a word and
then see the definitions and spellings of all the words that had the
same consonants but different vowel sounds would be cool. Kind of like
what they usually do in Arabic but optimized for English.
Mxsmanic - 22 Apr 2004 21:54 GMT
> One word I am able to transcribe - is "pleiz" (like "place", but with
> "z" instead of "s" at the end. Which word is that?

plays

> Another word is "pua" ... which word is that?

No idea.  Sounds like a British pronunciation.

> Yet another is "hau". (My guess is that this is "how")

Mine too.

Signature

Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Einde O'Callaghan - 23 Apr 2004 00:16 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> One word I am able to transcribe - is "pleiz" (like "place", but with
> "z" instead of "s" at the end. Which word is that?

As has already been suggested "plays"

> Another word is "pua" ... which word is that?

Probably "poor" (Received Pronunciation)

> Yet another is "hau". (My guess is that this is "how")

I agree,

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Irma - 23 Apr 2004 06:06 GMT
>Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Thanks
>Spiderman

This is a question I wanted to ask long ago..

Is there more than one phonetic alphabets?

The thing is that you go to one word in one diccionary and you get
some symbols to achieve the proper pronunciation, but  if you see the
same word in another diccionary the symbols are different.

It seems as if every dictionary had its very own phontic alphabet.

I have here two diccionaries with the same word "measure" and the
symbols are quite different...

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?dict=CALD&key=49526&ph=on

http://www.bartleby.com/61/22/M0182200.html

Thanks.
Irma.
Mxsmanic - 23 Apr 2004 06:18 GMT
> Is there more than one phonetic alphabets?

Yes.  

The International Phonetic Alphabet is very widely used, but many
dictionaries and other texts still use their own, home-cooked phonetic
alphabets for transcribing pronunciation.  This is common in English
dictionaries, whereas, in the case of French dictionaries, for example,
the IPA is typically used.

Many users of the IPA who transcribe only a single language with it make
slight adjustments to it to make it more readable or easier to typeset.
For example, many writers and publishers use 'r' to represent the sound
of 'r' in their target language, even though the actual IPA uses a
number of different symbols for this sound, depending on how it is made
(there are separate symbols for uvular 'r', retroflex 'r', and so on).
This is a bit unfortunate but it is widespread and usually it's not too
confusing unless you are comparing two different languages.

> The thing is that you go to one word in one diccionary and you get
> some symbols to achieve the proper pronunciation, but  if you see the
> same word in another diccionary the symbols are different.

In some languages these home-made symbols are common.  It's very common
in English dictionaries, I'm sorry to say.  I think that the high
proportion of monolingual writers and editors in English makes this
problem worse, as they've never spoken any other language and have never
had to learn the IPA and/or have never seen its utility.

> It seems as if every dictionary had its very own phontic alphabet.

In English dictionaries, this is often true.

Signature

Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.

Irma - 23 Apr 2004 09:00 GMT
.......

>> It seems as if every dictionary had its very own phontic alphabet.
>
>In English dictionaries, this is often true.

Thanks a lot for your comment... I just searched for the IPA site and
I got the complete chart and a lot more information.

BTW, for those who are intrested in the site... here is the link :-)

http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipa.html

Have a nice day!
Irma.
Enrico C - 23 Apr 2004 12:32 GMT
>  Is there more than one phonetic alphabets?

AFAIK, the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) is the international
standard.

If you are using a newsreader with Unicode support ["40tude Dialog"
for instance; OE too, but Dialog is better :) ], and you have a
suitable  font installed in your Control Panel / Fonts folder
[Arialuni.ttf = Arial Unicode MS , for instance, or Lucida Sans
Unicode],  you can write and read IPA symbols even in Usenet posts.

Here is the IPA transcription of the sentence
"Good morning everybody!"

Gʊd  mɔːnɪŋ ɛvrɪbɒdɪ

And here are some useful links

The English consonants and vowels in IPA symbols
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/english-uni.htm

A Sound Reference to the IPA
http://www.ling.hf.ntnu.no/ipa/full/

The INTERNATIONAL PHONETIC ASSOCIATION Home Page
http://www2.arts.gla.ac.uk/IPA/ipa.html

The International Phonetic Alphabet in Unicode
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/ipa-unicode.htm

Setting up your computing for Unicode IPA
http://depts.washington.edu/llc/help/presentations/unicode_ipa/2_getting_started.html

Lucida Sans Unicode font, 316 KB download
http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/wells/lsansuni.ttf

Arialuni.ttf font (23MB d/load. You'll find it on Office 2000/XP CDs
too).
http://driver.polri.go.id/Font/Arialuni.ttf

40tude Dialog - Windows newsreader with Unicode Character support
http://www.40tude.com/dialog


> The thing is that you go to one word in one diccionary and you get
> some symbols to achieve the proper pronunciation, but  if you see the
> same word in another diccionary the symbols are different.

I happened to notice that British dictionaries generally use IPA, and
so do Italian dictionaries, while Americans still use their own
symbols.

Signature

Enrico C

Bill Bonde ( ''Stop this farce!'' ''Which one?'' ) - 23 Apr 2004 19:18 GMT
> >  Is there more than one phonetic alphabets?
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Gʊd  mɔːnɪŋ ɛvrɪbɒdɪ

And that turned out gibberish over here. A different representation is
currently required on usenet.

http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan_Kirshenbaum/IPA/

#begin quote
In August of 1992, some of the readers of the Usenet newsgroups sci.lang
and alt.usage.english got fed up with common in which posters tried to
describe how words were pronounced (by them or in dialects under
discussion) by reference to how other words were pronounced (by the
author). Since individuals pronounce different words differently, this
tended to lead to (occasionally interesting, but often merely) long,
fruitless threads.
There already was a scheme occasionally used for noting transcription,
but it suffered from (among other things) the fact that it was highly
skewed toward describing English. This made it less than useful for the
denizens of sci.lang.

Since there already existed a notation (the International Phonetic
Alphabet, or IPA) for precisely specifying phonemic and phonetic values,
several of us decided that it couldn't be too hard to put together a
reasonable transcription scheme of IPA into 7-bit ASCII characters. We
naturally had to allow some of the IPA symbols to map onto multiple
characters (since there are more IPA symbols than ASCII characters), but
we finally settled on a scheme in which each segment is represented by a
single character, potentially followed by some number of "diacritics",
which can either be single characters or delimited tokens. [We also came
up with a very narrow feature-based representation for use when
precision is needed or when no symbol completely fits the bill.] Unlike
some other such attempts, we took it as a given that this transcription
had to be directly readable, so each character needed to be at least
somewhat evocative of its IPA value.

It is expected that when the Unicode/ISO 10646 character set becomes
commonly used for mail, news, and web pages, this transcription will no
longer be needed, as the IPA characters will be able to be used
directly.

Included in this archive are the specification itself and the
"Pronunciation Symbols" page of Merriam-Webster's New Collegiate
Dictionary", done over in this transcription. This latter should be of
use for American English speakers who are not used to the IPA symbols.
#end quote

This is English using the system:
http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/Evan_Kirshenbaum/IPA/english.html
#begin quote
To aid English speakers in using the phonetic transcription, this
document describes the mapping onto a standard American dictionary
transcription system for sounds that commonly occur in the English
language. When it differs from the symbol used, I've also included a
description of the IPA symbol for the benefit of non-Americans.

The table is taken from the 'Pronunciation Symbols' page of
Merriam-Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary. In the examples, the
letters which spell the sound are bracketed by '<...>'.

Note that this only describes a small subset of the transcription
system. There are far more sounds (used in other languages) and nuances
of sound that can be captured. See the document describing the full
standard for complete details.

Phonemic (broad) transcriptions are bracketed by '/.../'. Phonetic
(narrow) transcriptions are bracketed by '[...]'. Syllables that carry
primary stress are preceded by "'". Syllables that carry secondary
stress are preceded by ",". When giving the transcription of a single
word, spaces are generally inserted between syllables (often omitted
before syllables that have stress marks). When giving the transcription
of a multi-word utterance, it is common to put spaces between words and
omit them between syllables.

/@/:
schwa (upside-down 'e').
Used in both unaccented ('b<a>nan<a>', 'c<o>llide', '<a>but'), and
accented ('h<u>mdr<u>m', 'ab<u>t') contexts.
The IPA symbol is a schwa.

[British speakers often have different vowels in these two contexts. The
accented one is further back and is written /V/. Its IPA symbol is a
'wedge' or upside-down 'v'.]

/l-/, /n-/, /m-/, /N-/:
Superscript schwa preceding consonant.
As in 'batt<le>', 'mitt<en>', 'eat<en>'. Signifies that the consonant is
pronounced as a syllable by itself.
The IPA symbol is a vertical bar below the consonant.

/R/:
shwa followed by 'r'.
'op<er>ation', 'f<ur>th<er>', '<ur>g<er>'.
The IPA symbol is a schwa with a hook.

/&/:
short a.
'm<a>t', 'm<a>p', 'm<a>d', 'g<a>g, 'sn<a>p', 'p<a>tch'.
The IPA symbol is an 'a-e' digraph.

/eI/:
long a ('a' with bar above).
'd<ay>', 'f<a>de', 'd<a>te', '<a>orta', 'dr<a>pe', 'c<a>pe'.
/A/:
a with diaeresis (two dots) above.
'b<o>ther', 'c<o>t', and, with most American speakers, 'f<a>ther',
'c<a>rt'.
The IPA symbol is a script 'a'.

/a/:
a with dot above.
'f<a>ther' as pronounced by speakers who do not rhyme it with bother.
/AU/:
a followed by u with dot.
'n<ow>', 'l<ou>d', '<ou>t'.
/b/:
'<b>a<b>y', 'ri<b>'.

/tS/:
ch. The dictionary notes "(actually, this sound is \t\ + \sh\)"
'<ch>in', 'na<tu>re' (/'neI tSR/). In IPA transcription, this is
sometimes spelled as 'c with hacek'.
/d/:
'<d>i<d>', 'a<dd>er'.

/E/:
short e.
'b<e>t', 'b<e>d', 'p<e>ck'.
The IPA symbol is a lower-case epsilon. It is sometimes spelled with a
small capital E.

/i/:
long e ('e' with bar above).
'b<ea>t', 'nosebl<ee>d', '<e>venl<y>', '<ea>s<y>'.
/f/:
'<f>i<f>ty', 'cu<ff>'

/g/:
'<g>o', 'bi<g>', '<g>ift'.

/h/:
'<h>at', 'a<h>ead'.

/hw/:
'<wh>ale' as pronounced by those who do not have the same
pronunciation for both 'whale' and 'wail'.
/I/:
short i.
't<i>p', 'ban<i>sh', 'act<i>ve'.
The IPA symbol is a small capital I or a lower-case iota.

/aI/:
long i ('i' with bar above).
's<i>te', 's<i>de', 'b<uy>', 'tr<i>pe'.
/dZ/:
j. The dictionary notes "(actually, this sound is \d\ + \zh\)"
'<j>ob', '<g>em', 'e<dge>', '<j>oin', '<j>u<dge'.
/k/:
'<k>in', '<c>oo<k>', 'a<che>'.

/x/:
k with bar below. (Same as /C/.)
German 'Bu<ch>'.
/C/:
k with bar below. (Same as /x/.)
German 'i<ch>'.
/l/:
'<l>i<l>y', 'poo<l>'.

/m/:
'<m>ur<m>ur', 'di<m>', 'ny<m>ph'.

/n/:
'<n>o', 'ow<n>'.

/<vowel>~/:
superscript 'n'.
"indicates that a preceeding vowel or diphthong is pronounced with the
nasal passages open as in French 'un bon vin blanc' /W~ bo~ va~ blA~/"
The IPA diacritic is a tilde above the vowel.

/N/:
eng ('n' with a tail).
'si<ng>' /sIN/, 'si<ng>er' /'sIN R/, 'fi<ng>er' /'fIN gR/, 'i<n>k' /iNk/
The IPA symbol is an eng.

/oU/:
long o ('o' with bar above).
'b<o>ne', 'kn<ow>', 'b<eau>'.
/O/:
'o' with dot above.
's<aw>', '<a>ll', 'gn<aw>'.
The IPA symbol is a small open 'o' or upside-down 'c'.

/W/:
o-e digraph
French 'b<oeu>f', german 'H<o:>lle.
The IPA symbol is an o-e digraph.

/Oi/:
'o' with dot above followed by 'i'.
'c<oi>n', 'destr<oy>'. [The dictionary also lists 's<awi>ng', but I
pronounce that as two separate syllables /'sO IN/.]
/p/:
'<p>e<pp>er', 'li<p>'.

/r/:
'<r>ed', 'ca<r>', '<r>a<r>ity'.

/s/:
'<s>our<ce>', 'le<ss>'.

/S/:
sh.
'<sh>y', 'mi<ssi>on', 'ma<ch>ine', 'spe<ci>al'.
The IPA symbol is an esh: a tall, pulled 's' or long, barless 'f'.

/t/:
'<t>ie', 'a<tt>ack'.

/T/:
th.
'<th>in'. 'e<th>er'.
The IPA symbol as a lower-case theta.

/D/:
'th' with bar below.
'<th>en', 'ei<th>er', '<th>is'.
The IPA symbol is an eth, sort of a script 'd' with the bar crossed.

/u/:
'u' with diaeresis (two dots) above.
'r<u>le', 'y<ou>th', 'union' /'jun j@n/, 'few' /fju/.
/U/:
'u' with dot above.
'p<u>ll', 'w<oo>d', 'b<oo>k', 'curable' /'kjUr @ b@l/.
The IPA symbol is a small letter upsilon. A small capital U or closed
lower-case omega is also used.

/y/:
u-e digraph.
German 'f<u:>llen', 'h<u:>bsch', French 'r<ue>'.
/v/:
'<v>i<v>id', 'gi<ve>'.

/w/:
'<w>e', 'a<w>ay'.

/j/:
'<y>ard', '<y>oung', 'cue' /kju/, 'union' /'jun y@n/;

/<cons>;/:
superscript 'y' following consonant;
"indicates that during the articulation of the sound represented by the
preceding character, the front of the tongue has substantially the
position it has for the articulation of the first sound of 'yard', as in
French 'digne' /din;/."
The IPA diacritic is a superscript 'j' following or hook below the
consonant.

/ju/:
'<you>th', '<u>nion', 'c<ue>', 'f<ew>', 'm<u>te'.

/jU/:
'c<u>rable', 'f<u>ry'.

/z/:
'<z>one', 'rai<se>'.

/Z/:
zh.
'vi<si>on', 'azure' /'aZ R/.
The IPA symbol is a yogh: like a flat-topped '3' lowered so that the top
is the height of that of a 'z'.
#end quote

(!!)
Enrico C - 23 Apr 2004 20:02 GMT
> #begin quote
> In August of 1992,

That was twelve years ago.

<snip>
> It is expected that when the Unicode/ISO 10646 character set becomes
> commonly used for mail, news, and web pages, this transcription will no
> longer be needed, as the IPA characters will be able to be used
> directly.

Just what's happening today :)

Nowadays we can have perfectly working Unicode readers, where the IPA
standard symbols are fully supported.

Moreover, alternative 7bit symbols like

> /&/:
> short a.
> 'm<a>t', 'm<a>p', 'm<a>d', 'g<a>g, 'sn<a>p', 'p<a>tch'.
> The IPA symbol is an 'a-e' digraph.

are not universally recognized as IPA.

The alternative symbols might even cause some confusion, in my view,
as they are used in a different way in other phonetic conventions such
as Merriam Webster's pronunciation guide, where for instance the &
stands for the schwa sound.   
http://merriam-webster.com/help/pronguide.htm

Signature

Enrico C

News: www.40tude.com/dialog - Mail: www.ritlabs.com/the_bat 
Local News/Mail Server: http://tglsoft.de/misc/hamster_en.htm

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2012 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.