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Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / May 2004take your eye off
Sorry could you help me with this one as well? The player is a Snooker player.. :-) "..., but when you take your eye off the ball, you can miss anything." Thanks a lot... > Sorry could you help me with this one as well? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thanks a lot... Mmm, are you sure you heard this correctly? Most native speakers would prefer 'anything' with a negative structure, like:- "you can't miss anything." (Apologies if I'm jumping to conclusions - but in my experience a lot of Spanish speakers have difficulty making a sound distinction between 'can' and 'can't'...) A native speaker would more likely say "you can miss something." or "you can miss everything." As for what it actually *means*, see my other answer - I think it's another candidate for Colmanballs! DC "What I said to them at half time would be unprintable on the radio" - Gerry Francis (that site is great for tag lines, too!) >> Sorry could you help me with this one as well? >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > "you can miss everything." Not really. You're overgenaralising the rule about "some" and "any". The original statement is qwuite idiomatic. It means quite literally "In snooker if you don't watch the ball you can miss even a very easy shot"." If there was more context I mightr be able to say more. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan. If there was more context I mightr be able to say more. >Regards, Einde O'Callaghan. Here is the whole sentence. It's taken from an interview where Barry Pinches gives a reason why he missed the black ball. "That black - I just took my eyes off it, they were nowhere yet I felt OK and I didnt feel any pressure, but when you take your eye off the ball, you can miss anything. " What is worrying me a little is that in some specific readings I can't get the idea or meaning of phrases right. In this case, I think I can more or less understand, but I am not sure. I don't know if it is a common expression or it is just for snooker players way of express things. Thanks a lot... > If there was more context I mightr be able to say more. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Thanks a lot... Hi Irma I've not been following the World Championships this year, but I think I heard something about this on the Radio. I am right in thinking Pinches need to make (cf) one final shot to beat one of the major players (Ronnie O'Sullivan?). It was a very easy pot of a black right over the hole, but he missed it and so lost the match and his chance to win the tournament? So in this context what he's saying is that it's possible to miss even a easy shot in these high-presured circumstances? 'Anything' means even a really easy shot? This sort of usage isn't unique to snooker or indeed sport. DC  SignatureUsing M2, Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/m2/ >Hi Irma > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >DC Yes, you are right, it was like this. Poor Pinches :-( You know, I like very much to read interviews because you have in paper exactly how natives speak English... Thanks a lot for your comment :-) Irma. > If there was more context I mightr be able to say more. > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Thanks a lot... Yes there are specific snooker meanings. Watch a game on TV. The player uses the white ball (cueball) to hit the colour ball. Barry missed sinking/potting the black because he took his eyes off the white ball. But to keep your eye on the ball is basic in all ball sports. en espanol, ojos a la pelota es fundamental >Yes there are specific snooker meanings. Yes John, you are right. >Watch a game on TV. > >The player uses the white ball (cueball) to >hit the colour ball. >Barry missed sinking/potting the black because >he took his eyes off the white ball. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >ojos a la pelota es fundamental Hey, muchas gracias.... Qué tengas un lindo dia! :-) Irma. > If there was more context I mightr be able to say more. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > common expression or it is just for snooker players way of express > things. I think he's just saying that he didn't look properly where he was hitting the ball and unexpectedly missed the crucial black. BTW regarding the debate about whether you misheard the comment, I would definitely say that you heard correctly and indeed inserting "can't" instead or "can" in the above statement would produce total nonsense. And there is nothing grammatically wrong with his statement, either. It's wrong to overgeneralise from the rough guidelines you are taught about "some" and "any" in a beginners' course, because they are nothing more than a rough guide to the most common usage of "some" and "any". there are, however, other usages that you will encounter if you continue to learn English at a higher level. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > BTW regarding the debate about whether you misheard the comment, I would > definitely say that you heard correctly and indeed inserting "can't" > instead or "can" in the above statement would produce total nonsense. Certainly, but only now we can see the full sentence. DC >I think he's just saying that he didn't look properly where he was >hitting the ball and unexpectedly missed the crucial black. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >there are, however, other usages that you will encounter if you continue >to learn English at a higher level. You are right, This is something that any of my English teachers advised me. They just concentrated on giving rules and never warned you that you might encounter some different uses. I was always taught that I had to say "four'teen", stressing teen. Now that I was watching snooker, I listened to the referees speaking aloud the numbers and I noticed they weren't singing the "teen" ending. I don't really know if there is a real difference in meaning depending on the stress or it is just that I learnt it wrongly. Thanks a lot for your comment Einde, very interesting as always. Irma. <snip> >>It's wrong to overgeneralise from the rough guidelines you are taught >>about "some" and "any" in a beginners' course, because they are nothing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You are right, This is something that any of my English teachers > advised me. In this case it should be "some of my English teachers". "Any" in positive sentences means roughly "each person or thing in the named group". <snip> > Thanks a lot for your comment Einde, very interesting as always. Thank YOU. ;-) Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >>> Sorry could you help me with this one as well? >>> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Regards, Einde O'Callaghan. Yes, on reflection you're right about overgeneralising that rule. For the last 20 years I've been puzzling if meaning can be constructed for the example "this should be done by anyone" - encountered contextless in an exercise in a Greek-published English grammar - or whether it's just wrong. Have a look at my next posting to Irma for what I understand the context to be. BTW Einde, and wholly off-topic, I've just spent a week travelling round Southern and Western Ireland - I'd only briefly been to Dublin and Belfast before. Fantastic scenery, warm hospitality, great seafood - even the weather was kind to us. Can't wait to go again. DC >> Sorry could you help me with this one as well? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >in my experience a lot of Spanish speakers have difficulty making a sound >distinction between 'can' and 'can't'...) Yes you are right, it is very difficult as we don't have too many words ending with "t" in Spanish. However I have practiced whatching movies and you can distinguish crearly when is "can" and when is "can't" just by the stress of the word in the phrase. I don't know if I am wrong, but they are stressed totally different... >A native speaker would more likely say > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >As for what it actually *means*, see my other answer - I think it's >another candidate for Colmanballs! The thing is that when you study English from original material, you bump into a lot of "mistakes" if I make say so, natives often make, and they are just the way they express things. The thing is perfect when a native speak this way... but if you as student expresses the same way it is a mistake. I have a real problem now... I've been watching English movies a lot, I think it is a good way to learn pronunciation, and listening, besides a lot of vocabulary and so on... The problem comes when I start saying "I'll have me coffee now"... For a native it is normal, there is no mistake... but imagine if I say the same in my exam! They would think I made a mistake... Then, I really don't know how good is to study from original material... Thanks a lot for your comment :-) > The problem comes when I > start saying "I'll have me coffee now"... For a native it is normal, > there is no mistake... Really? Doesn't it sound very uneducated? I'm sure you don't want to learn that kind of English, no matter how "native" it is. >> The problem comes when I >> start saying "I'll have me coffee now"... For a native it is normal, >> there is no mistake... > >Really? Doesn't it sound very uneducated? I'm sure you don't want to >learn that kind of English, no matter how "native" it is. Yes Robert, you are right. I don't want to learn that kind of English. It just happened a week or two weeks ago... At the beginning we were laughing, but then I started to worry about it, since I will have my exam in December. As it has just started, I think it will be easy to get rid of it... Have a nice day! :-) >>> Sorry could you help me with this one as well? >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > "can't" just by the stress of the word in the phrase. I don't know if > I am wrong, but they are stressed totally different... Thinking about this, it's more that *I* often have difficulty distinguishing these words when spoken by Spanish speakers. This happens quite regularly, and leads to communication breakdowns. A conversation might go something like this:- Me: Fancy a beer next week? Luis: OK - I /kn/ do Thursday. Me: Great, Thursday it is then. Luis: No, I'm saying, I'm busy on Thursday. In this example the /kn/ is followed by a /d/ sound; it may be that with /d/ and /t/ the final /t/ of 'can't' is being lost through too much elision. Several of my Spanish friends and ex-students (all from Spain rather than the Americas) have lived here in Manchester for some time, and most of them work in contexts (social work, education) where they come into contact with local speech patterns. This means they're used to a model where 'can't' sounds like the philosopher Kant, whereas in my Southern English 'can't' rhymes with 'Aunt'. This means that for them 'can't' = 'can' + /t/ - there's no vowel sound difference. But then I teach for part of the year in Edinburgh, where 'can't' definately rhymes with 'Aunt' and I'm not sure there's any difference in understanding Spanish speakers there; and anyway, this only happens with Spanish speakers, not other L2 speakers who live in Manchester, so my theory collapses. I'm seeing a friend who teaches at Institut Cervantes on Friday - I'll see what she thinks and post back. >> A native speaker would more likely say >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > bump into a lot of "mistakes" if I make say so, natives often make, > and they are just the way they express things. Yes, I'm sure you do. There's a philosophical issue about this. Sometimes talking about non-native speakers we distinguish between 'mistakes' - where the speaker's language knowledge/skills are faulty - and 'errors' - those 'slips of the tongue' which native speakers of all languages make in their own L1 speech. So native speakers don't make mistakes, but they do commit errors. This is one of the differences between written language, where you have the chance to go back and correct, and spoken language, where you don't. Unfortunately for some public figures like sportsmen and women, journalists transfer their speech to writing, errors and all. > The thing is perfect when a native speak this way... but if you as > student expresses the same way it is a mistake. Yes, true... it does sound unfair... but I think people apply different criteria to native and non-native speakers of their own language. You've used the word 'student', which implies a learning context. It's important for teachers to make the mistake/error distinction - I try not to correct students if I think they're just making a slip of the tongue, but if, for example, a lower-level student constantly misses off third-person 's' I'll correct it every time. Teachers are there to point out where students need to pay attention to language- that's what we do. I have a personal rule never to correct people outside the classroom and believe that unsolicited correcting of anybody else's speech - L1 or L2, student or not - in a non-teaching context is impertinence, but that's just me. Earlier this week a student told me he had heard someone say "I've lived here 25 year"; was this correct? Well, this is quite a common native-speaker construct, especially in the dialect round here, but I don't want the student to use it. In the context of the other clues his speech gives that he's not a native-speaker it's going to sound like one more mistake. There's also the risk he'll generalise the idea and start saying stuff like "I've been here ten minute" (actually that works in some local dialects too). So I said what I usually say - "you might hear this but I wouldn't advise you to use it". > I have a real problem now... I've been watching English movies a lot, > I think it is a good way to learn pronunciation, and listening, > besides a lot of vocabulary and so on... The problem comes when I > start saying "I'll have me coffee now"... For a native it is normal, > there is no mistake... but imagine if I say the same in my exam! They > would think I made a mistake... Yes, exactly, sorry I've only just read that bit! I actually say "I'll have me coffee now", and it would feel unnatural to me not to, although people have tried to correct me over the years! > Then, I really don't know how good is to study from original > material... It depends on the material! I get the impression you might be in the UK (well you're somewhere people are interested in snooker anyway!); if so you might think twice about using Eastenders or Coronation Street for speech models, excellent though they both are! Cheers DC >Several of my Spanish friends and ex-students (all from Spain rather than >the Americas) have lived here in Manchester for some time, and most of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >friend who teaches at Institut Cervantes on Friday - I'll see what she >thinks and post back. I have always thought that for Mexican Spanish speakers English endings with " t " and "d" are difficult because we don't have too many words with those endigns, and on the other hand we sometimes ignored them, because of speed or the place you grew up. Townspeople from the cost don't pronounce them. "La voluntad de Dios" would be for them "La volunta e Dio"... Of course the more education one has the better one speaks... this is an extreme example. >Earlier this week a student told me he had heard someone say "I've lived >here 25 year"; was this correct? Well, this is quite a common [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >local dialects too). So I said what I usually say - "you might hear this >but I wouldn't advise you to use it". Yes, I know it for sure. I gave support to some students in Spanish once, and just then I realized that I had used the subjuntive wrongly all my life :-(... They showed me the grammar rule and I was wrong, not happy with the idea and thinking that I couldn't be wrong in my own language I went to original Spanish writings and I found that the 60% or even more used the subjunctive as I did... Imagine how I felt when I knew I didn't know my own language... so I went to make a Spanish test on line and I got 80%!!! I realized then that I had to learn my own language as a foreign language to be able to teach it.. >It depends on the material! I get the impression you might be in the UK >(well you're somewhere people are interested in snooker anyway!); if so >you might think twice about using Eastenders or Coronation Street for >speech models, excellent though they both are! Unfortunately, I haven't been to any country English is spoken, no even on holidays :-(... Ah! but I will be 5 hours in Heathrow Airport in my trip to Mexico next June. Belive me I will enjoy it a lot :-) I thank very much your comment, it has been very nice to read you. Have a nice day! Irma. >> Several of my Spanish friends and ex-students (all from Spain rather >> than [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Imagine how I felt when I knew I didn't know my own language... so I > went to make a Spanish test on line and I got 80%!!! But you're not alone in that; 99.99% of native English speakers couldn't explain to you the difference between simple past and present perfect (the other .01% probably spent a gap-year teaching English). I've tried this by asking native speakers the difference between "I've put the kettle on" and "I put the kettle on" (the answer is in the first one it hasn't boiled yet), and they can't tell you - in fact the distinction has never occured to them before, although they make it in their speech a thousand times a day. You only need to look at the way native posters to the AUE and AEU newsgroups who aren't teachers respond to queries from L2 English learners, to realise that they don't actually understand the issue that's being asked about. That's not to denigrate people on those groups; there's many ways of 'knowing' about language; the knowledge about things like tenses and third conditionals that EFL teachers and learners work on is different from, say, knowing about etymology. > I realized then that I had to learn my own language as a foreign > language to be able to teach it.. Hmm, interesting. I went through the entire British Educational system, and got a Batchelors degree, without anybody telling me "should've" isn't written "should of". We were talking here about proficiency recently - I suspect few native-speakers would pass the exam (I've thought about entering it myself), which makes you wonder what the point of it is. >> It depends on the material! I get the impression you might be in the UK >> (well you're somewhere people are interested in snooker anyway!); if so [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Unfortunately, I haven't been to any country English is spoken, no > even on holidays That's a shame! Come and visit us soon! :-(... Ah! but I will be 5 hours in Heathrow Airport > in my trip to Mexico next June. Belive me I will enjoy it a lot :-) I'm sorry, I completly forgot you were in Germany! But I'm intrigued about the snooker. Is it popular in Germany or are you watching the BBC on satelite TV? I know snooker became popular in Belgium in the 70s because people in coastal areas could pick up British TV; and, of course, it's a game you can follow without having to understand the commentary, so people who weren't English speakers could get into watching that channel. I watched a few frames of the Hendry match yesterday - I'd forgotten what an ingrossing game it is. But is it sport? Is darts? Cheers for now Django > We were talking here about proficiency recently - I > suspect few native-speakers would pass the exam (I've thought about > entering it myself), which makes you wonder what the point of it is. Speaking of which, here is a few questions from a sample Proficiency test. What do you think of them? How would you rate such a test from 0 (very easy) to 10 (very difficult)? For questions 1-18, read the three texts below and decide which answer (A, B, C or D) best fits each gap. Mark your answers on the separate answer sheet. Jerome Flynn Actor Turned Singer After a variety of jobs, Jerome Flynn became (1).... successful with fellow actor Robson Green in the TV series Soldier, Soldier, and then when they (2).... up as singers in 1995, they had three number one hits. 'It was a whirlwind, fantasy time,' says Jerome. 'We made the records because we quite (3).... the money, and it paid off. It was a lot of fun, but you can become (4).... in the pop world. It's addictive, and once you're a pop star, people tend to (5).... you on a pedestal. It was so mad we had to get out while the going was good. Now money doesn't mean so much, although it (6).... me to leave my career behind for a while. But Robson wanted to go back to acting and has made quite a success of it. I'd like to work with him again one day.' 1 A greatly B largely C hugely D grossly 2 A joined B teamed C fixed D grouped 3 A craved B longed C yearned D fancied 4 A laid up B seized up C taken up D caught up 5 A lift B have C put D hold 6 A enabled B empowered C entitled D effected The Sailing Trip A few days ago, I was (7).... my new sailing gear ready for my first long trip, around the coast of Britain on the sailing ship Hirta. I watched a TV report of some fellow yachtsmen crossing the finishing (8).... off a place called Ushant to complete a record round-the-world voyage. The sea was rough, the wind looked fierce and, although they were putting a brave (9).... on it, the winning yachtsmen looked exhausted. What I was seeing on the television screen was not my (10).... of yachting. I felt smug knowing I had this marvellous opportunity to drift gently round Britain learning to sail, and that I would be steering (11).... of the horrors of ocean sailing. Casually I looked up Ushant on the map. I went quite cold: Ushant was (12).... 32 kilometres further south than the starting point for my great journey on the Hirta. 7 A going through B setting down C checking up D passing over 8 A mark B strip C line D sign 9 A face B eye C appearance D view 10 A thought B idea C notion D sense 11 A clean B straight C short D clear 12 A virtually B practically C simply D barely Mrs Murgatroyd 'And there's another thing,' said Mrs Murgatroyd. Beside her in the taxi her husband concealed a small sigh. With Mrs Murgatroyd there was always another thing. No matter how well things were (13)...., Edna Murgatroyd went through life to the accompaniment of a running commentary of complaints, an endless litany of dissatisfaction. In short, she (14).... without cease. In the seat beside the driver, Higgins, the young executive from head office, who had been selected for the week's vacation at the (15).... of the bank on the grounds of being 'most (16).... newcomer' of the year, sat silent. He was in foreign exchange, an eager young man whom they had only met at London airport twelve hours earlier and whose natural enthusiasm had gradually (17).... away before the onslaught of Mrs Murgatroyd. The driver, full of smiles when they selected his taxi for the run to the hotel a few minutes earlier, had also caught the mood, and he too had (18).... into silence. 13 A doing B getting C going D being 14 A nagged B gossiped C uttered D voiced 15 A liability B expense C debit D deficit 16 A promising B emerging C favourable D auspicious 17 A washed B ebbed C dripped D rinsed 18 A paused B reposed C lapsed D desisted >> We were talking here about proficiency recently - I >> suspect few native-speakers would pass the exam (I've thought about [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > 17 A washed B ebbed C dripped D rinsed > 18 A paused B reposed C lapsed D desisted Just a quick glance at this, I'll try and get back to it later, reminds me why I hated teaching Proficiency (which I've not done for a while); all the answers depend on knowing particular collocations or idioms; you either know that particular collocation or you don't; for a teacher it's a nightmare because you can't help students to develop intuitive strategies to work out possible answers in the way you can with lower level exams like PET, which I'm currently teaching: it's just a question of throwing tons of language at your students and hoping some of it comes up in the exam. As a native speaker educated to post-graduate level:- * I can't guess most of the words without looking at the four suggestions and in some cases can't think of any *possible* options without checking the alternatives; * I can do all of them with the four options to choose from; in a lot of cases I thought "Oh, yes, right, I didn't think of that". * I think I'm familiar with the source of the first two passages. Robson Green & Jerome (Whatever) are real showbiz people in the UK, and I'm fairly certain the 'sailing' passage is from a book by Sandi Toksvig about sailing round Great Britain with John McCarthy, the former Beirut hostage, which was based on a TV series. I reckon the culturally-specific knowledge that's particular to me as a UK national gives me an unfair advantage here. (Also over non-UK native speakers of course... that begs some questions...) I don't know about 0 - 10 for very easy to very difficult, but if you pushed me Enrico I'd go for 9. My point about Proficiency is (especially with this example): very *unfair, not very *international, and very '*so what are we trying to prove?' DC >Just a quick glance at this, I'll try and get back to it later, reminds me >why I hated teaching Proficiency (which I've not done for a while); all [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >with this example): very *unfair, not very *international, and very '*so >what are we trying to prove?' Yes. This is something that is really itching me.... The other day I was discussing some grammar things with someone who has the Proficiency. It was about word order... and he just said. It is wrong, this word doesn't go here. Then, I checked again and I told him, Yes, you are right. It is because the word is functioning like an adverb. Then he said, I don't know anything about adverbs or adjectives, I don't know the function of those words, the only thing I can say is that this sentence is not right. I thought, he is joking, how someone can have the Proficiency without any knowledge of grammar. No, he was no joking. He doesn't know English grammar, I mean, name of tenses, what a wh- word is and so on. So then what has he done to have the Proficiency? Read English books like if he were eating chips.... It has been a little frustrating to me, since I have studied grammar all the time. I really don't know if I passed my exam studying with exercises, lists of words, practicing online etc. or rather going to the sofa and just read books. Irma. > I thought, he is joking, how someone can have the Proficiency without > any knowledge of grammar. No, he was no joking. He doesn't know > English grammar, I mean, name of tenses, what a wh- word is and so on. > So then what has he done to have the Proficiency? Read English books > like if he were eating chips.... That's not a bad thing, is it? :) I mean, grammar is a way to understand and use language correctly, but not the final goal itself, is it? > It has been a little frustrating to me, since I have studied grammar > all the time. I really don't know if I passed my exam studying with > exercises, lists of words, practicing online etc. or rather going to > the sofa and just read books. That would help with the "Reading" paper, I guess, but there are also other tests [Writing, Use of English, Listening, Speaking] :) SignatureEnrico C News: www.40tude.com/dialog - Mail: www.ritlabs.com/the_bat Local News/Mail Server: http://tglsoft.de/misc/hamster_en.htm >> So then what has he done to have the Proficiency? Read English books >> like if he were eating chips.... > >That's not a bad thing, is it? :) You are right it is not... but if I just could trust that by reading I would pass my exam. I would do it gladly. :-) >I mean, grammar is a way to understand and use language correctly, but >not the final goal itself, is it? I think it depends on your final goal. If you want to be an English teacher one day, you need to understand grammar to explain it to your students. I would like to be an English teacher one day. I really don't know if I could manage... After reading the English teachers' postings here, I think it would take me years to be a good one :-) > Read English books like if he were eating chips.. , I think I would have said "as if he were eating chips...". Can both forms be used? :) SignatureEnrico C - No Native Speaker News: www.40tude.com/dialog - Mail: www.ritlabs.com/the_bat Local News/Mail Server: http://tglsoft.de/misc/hamster_en.htm >>Read English books like if he were eating chips.. > > , > I think I would have said "as if he were eating chips...". > Can both forms be used? :) No - your version is correct. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >> Just a quick glance at this, I'll try and get back to it later, reminds >> me [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > Irma. That's really curious, because usually the difference between a native speaker and a really good NNS is the NNS knows *why* a piece of language is right or wrong; for the NS it's just instinct. Maybe your friend recognised that something was wrong, but didn't consciously link it to a grammar point learnt way back. Proficiency usually involves learning a lot of grammar. Django >>> Just a quick glance at this, I'll try and get back to it later, reminds >>> me [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > Django I think both of you are right. I passed the proficiency back in 99 with a grade B. My preparation indeed involved a lot of dedicated learning, but the idiomatic and phrasal bits of the language were not nearly entirely covered by the study books. Also, I had the misfortune to live in Germany where you can hardly find good non-native speakers of English, and rarely native ones. What I did was reading English books, preferably written by native speakers (I haven't read any German book since 1997). I read everything English I could get hold of - magazines, newspapers, newsgroups, websites, you name it. Also, I started a conversation circle and was lucky to find a charming elderly couple, he being from Staffordshire and she being German but having lived in England for 28 years. They were willing to support me and we met every week for a conversation. In retrospective I think the study books gave me good basics but I couldn't have done it without the other activities. Today, I believe I'm speaking English more intuitively (maybe as a native speaker does) than based on grammar knowledge. I can tell if an English sentence sounds English or if it sounds, well, clumsy, without remembering the rules. To me, using English is as familiar as driving my car, but I'm far from being a mechanic who knows why the car works the way it does. :) >>>> Just a quick glance at this, I'll try and get back to it later, >>>> reminds [quoted text clipped - 102 lines] > mechanic > who knows why the car works the way it does. :) Very valid learning strategies. In retrospect, are you glad you did Proficiency? Has it been useful professionally, and do you think your English improved through studying for it in ways it wouldn't otherwise? Cheers DC >>>>> Just a quick glance at this, I'll try and get back to it later, >>>>> reminds [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > Proficiency? Has it been useful professionally, and do you think your > English improved through studying for it in ways it wouldn't otherwise? Yes, no and yes. Yes I'm glad I did it, it has been a major achievement for me. I was 43 at this time and out of school for many years. For me it was proof that I'm still able to learn, and also that I had managed to outgrow my very limited school education - I just did the compulsory years. The professional advantage of the Proficieny was rather limited in my case. As a software developer, I'm talking to the computer in Visual Basic, SQL and several other languages, and to the users in German. :) Yet I don't know what future has in stock for me, and there might well be an opportunity where the paper proves useful. I definitely think my English improved by studying for the Proficiency. Mainly, the pending exam served as a motivation to study topics that would otherwise have been out of my scope or just not interesting enough. As a programmer I'm sort of lazy, when I'm studying something new I'm satisfied when I know the basics and where I can look up the rest. This, of course, doesn't work in an exam, so there was a pressure to go further. Taking the Proficiency exam is an incentive by itself, wether you pass it or not. The procedure takes the whole day, the UCLES staff is very professional, and the atmosphere is unique. I had known this already from the FCE which I took one year earlier, so I was looking forward to it. To sum it up, I'm very happy I did it. I recommend this to every student who really wants to be, hmm, proficient. :) Regards, Juergen >>>>>> Just a quick glance at this, I'll try and get back to it later, >>>>>> reminds [quoted text clipped - 161 lines] > Regards, > Juergen Thanks for that Juergen, food for thought. Catch you again. Django >> We were talking here about proficiency recently - I >> suspect few native-speakers would pass the exam (I've thought about [quoted text clipped - 80 lines] > 17 A washed B ebbed C dripped D rinsed > 18 A paused B reposed C lapsed D desisted PS And the other thing is, as a teacher, explaining the differences between words in groups like > 3 A craved B longed C yearned D fancied one wonders:- 1 Who cares? 2 Will my students remember this in a week's time? 3 Am I just a human dictionary? and the big one 4 Will teaching my students these fine nuances actually make them better speakers of English? Are they ever going to use these words? DC, getting cynical > For questions 1-18, read the three texts below and decide which answer > (A, B, C or D) best fits each gap. Let's try :) No dictionary, of course :) > Jerome Flynn > Actor Turned Singer After a variety of jobs, Jerome > Flynn became (1).... > 1 A greatly B largely C hugely D grossly I would say C, hugely. > successful with fellow actor Robson Green in the > TV series Soldier, Soldier, and then when they (2).... > 2 A joined B teamed C fixed D grouped B, teamed > up as singers > in 1995, they had three number one hits. 'It was a whirlwind, fantasy > time,' says Jerome. 'We made the records because we quite (3).... > 3 A craved B longed C yearned D fancied Mmmmh... Maybe D, fancied ? > the money, and it paid off. It was a lot of fun, but you can become > (4).... > 4 A laid up B seized up C taken up D caught up Phrasal verbs! My bête noire! I'll venture a guess: D, caught up > in the pop world. It's addictive, and once you're a pop star, people > tend to (5).... > 5 A lift B have C put D hold C, put > you on a pedestal. It was so mad we had to get out > while the going was good. Now money doesn't mean so much, although it > (6).... > 6 A enabled B empowered C entitled D effected A, enabled > me to leave my career behind for a while. But Robson wanted to > go back to acting and has made quite a success of it. I'd like to > work with him again one day.' > The Sailing Trip > A few days ago, I was (7).... > 7 A going through B setting down C checking up D passing over Phrasal verbs again. Ouch! A, going through or C, checking up,but it's just a wild guess :/ > my new sailing gear ready > for my first long trip, around the coast of Britain on the sailing > ship Hirta. I watched a TV report of some fellow yachtsmen crossing > the finishing (8).... > 8 A mark B strip C line D sign C, line > off a place called Ushant to complete a record > round-the-world voyage. The sea was rough, the wind looked fierce > and, although they were putting a brave (9).... > 9 A face B eye C appearance D view B, eye or A, face ? > on it, the winning > yachtsmen looked exhausted. What I was seeing on the television > screen was not my (10).... > 10 A thought B idea C notion D sense B, idea or C, notion > of yachting. I felt smug knowing I had this > marvellous opportunity to drift gently round Britain learning to > sail, and that I would be steering (11).... > 11 A clean B straight C short D clear D, clear > of the horrors of ocean > sailing. Casually I looked up Ushant on the map. I went quite cold: > Ushant was (12).... > 12 A virtually B practically C simply D barely Mmmmh, we had few Bs till now. B, pratically. Or is it D, barely ? > 32 kilometres further south than the starting > point > for my great journey on the Hirta. > Mrs Murgatroyd > 'And there's another thing,' said Mrs Murgatroyd. Beside her in the > taxi her husband concealed a small sigh. With Mrs Murgatroyd there > was always another thing. No matter how well things were (13)...., > 13 A doing B getting C going D being C, going > Edna Murgatroyd went through life to the accompaniment of a running > commentary of complaints, an endless litany of dissatisfaction. In > short, she (14).... > 14 A nagged B gossiped C uttered D voiced 14, nagged > without cease. In the seat beside the driver, > Higgins, the young executive from head office, who had been selected > for the week's vacation at the (15).... > 15 A liability B expense C debit D deficit B, expense > of the bank on the grounds of > being 'most (16).... > 16 A promising B emerging C favourable D auspicious A, promising > newcomer' of the year, sat silent. He was in > foreign exchange, an eager young man whom they had only met at London > airport twelve hours earlier and whose natural enthusiasm had > gradually (17).... > 17 A washed B ebbed C dripped D rinsed Dunno. > away before the onslaught of Mrs Murgatroyd. The > driver, full of smiles when they selected his taxi for the run to the > hotel a few minutes earlier, had also caught the mood, and he too had > (18).... > 18 A paused B reposed C lapsed D desisted A, paused ? C, lapsed? > into silence. SignatureEnrico C - No Native Speaker >> time,' says Jerome. 'We made the records because we quite (3).... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >> the money, and it paid off. I am looking up in dictionaries and Google, now, and I am realizing that "crave the money" is more likely than "fancy the money". I thought "crave" is only used with "for", as "crave for", but I found a good few examples of "to crave" something. SignatureEnrico C News: www.40tude.com/dialog - Mail: www.ritlabs.com/the_bat Local News/Mail Server: http://tglsoft.de/misc/hamster_en.htm >>> time,' says Jerome. 'We made the records because we quite (3).... >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I thought "crave" is only used with "for", as "crave for", but I > found a good few examples of "to crave" something. No, you were right to start with; 'crave' has a sense of desperation, like when you try & give up cigarettes. He's saying "well, we thought of doing this, and obviously the money would be nice"... More later. DC >> For questions 1-18, read the three texts below and decide which answer >> (A, B, C or D) best fits each gap. > > Let's try :) > > No dictionary, of course :) And here come the "right answers", from the sample paper. >> Jerome Flynn >> Actor Turned Singer After a variety of jobs, Jerome [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I would say C, hugely. C >> successful with fellow actor Robson Green in the >> TV series Soldier, Soldier, and then when they (2).... > >> 2 A joined B teamed C fixed D grouped > > B, teamed B >> up as singers >> in 1995, they had three number one hits. 'It was a whirlwind, fantasy [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Mmmmh... Maybe D, fancied ? D, [so I was right to start with, as DC said :) ] >> the money, and it paid off. It was a lot of fun, but you can become >> (4).... > >> 4 A laid up B seized up C taken up D caught up > Phrasal verbs! My bête noire! I'll venture a guess: D, caught up D >> in the pop world. It's addictive, and once you're a pop star, people >> tend to (5).... > >> 5 A lift B have C put D hold > > C, put C >> you on a pedestal. It was so mad we had to get out >> while the going was good. Now money doesn't mean so much, although it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > A, enabled A >> me to leave my career behind for a while. But Robson wanted to >> go back to acting and has made quite a success of it. I'd like to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >> 7 A going through B setting down C checking up D passing over > Phrasal verbs again. Ouch! A, going through or C, checking up,but it's > just a wild guess :/ A >> my new sailing gear ready >> for my first long trip, around the coast of Britain on the sailing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > C, line C >> off a place called Ushant to complete a record >> round-the-world voyage. The sea was rough, the wind looked fierce [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > B, eye or A, face ? A [I liked to think there *must be* some "brave eye" idiom, "brave face" sounded to me too plain vanilla, but I was wrong :/ ] >> on it, the winning >> yachtsmen looked exhausted. What I was seeing on the television [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > B, idea or C, notion B >> of yachting. I felt smug knowing I had this >> marvellous opportunity to drift gently round Britain learning to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > D, clear D >> of the horrors of ocean >> sailing. Casually I looked up Ushant on the map. I went quite cold: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Mmmmh, we had few Bs till now. B, pratically. Or is it D, barely ? D [I would like that I could try two answers in real tests too ;) ] >> 32 kilometres further south than the starting >> point [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > C, going C >> Edna Murgatroyd went through life to the accompaniment of a running >> commentary of complaints, an endless litany of dissatisfaction. In >> short, she (14).... > >> 14 A nagged B gossiped C uttered D voiced > A, nagged A >> without cease. In the seat beside the driver, >> Higgins, the young executive from head office, who had been selected [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > B, expense B >> of the bank on the grounds of >> being 'most (16).... > >> 16 A promising B emerging C favourable D auspicious > > A, promising A >> newcomer' of the year, sat silent. He was in >> foreign exchange, an eager young man whom they had only met at London [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Dunno. B [I just didn,t know that verb, "to ebb"] >> away before the onslaught of Mrs Murgatroyd. The >> driver, full of smiles when they selected his taxi for the run to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > A, paused ? C, lapsed? C >> into silence. Proficiency instructions say: "The minimum successful performance with a candidate typically requires in order to achieve a Grade C corresponds to about 60% of the total marks." In our example, that means 12 out of 18. However, those sample tests were just Part 1 of a four parts "Reading" paper. And, after Reading, there is Writing, Use of English, Listening and Speaking. SignatureEnrico C News: www.40tude.com/dialog - Mail: www.ritlabs.com/the_bat Local News/Mail Server: http://tglsoft.de/misc/hamster_en.htm >Proficiency instructions say: "The minimum successful performance with >a candidate typically requires in order to achieve a Grade C [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >paper. And, after Reading, there is Writing, Use of English, Listening >and Speaking. Hi Enrico, Are you studying to pass the Proficiency? Irma. > Hi Enrico, > > Are you studying to pass the Proficiency? No :) SignatureEnrico C News: www.40tude.com/dialog - Mail: www.ritlabs.com/the_bat Local News/Mail Server: http://tglsoft.de/misc/hamster_en.htm >> Hi Enrico, >> >> Are you studying to pass the Proficiency? > > No :) Very wise! DC > corresponds to about 60% of the total marks." > > In our example, that means 12 out of 18. Ooops! Or, more precisely, 10,8 :) SignatureEnrico C News: www.40tude.com/dialog - Mail: www.ritlabs.com/the_bat Local News/Mail Server: http://tglsoft.de/misc/hamster_en.htm >>> For questions 1-18, read the three texts below and decide which answer >>> (A, B, C or D) best fits each gap. [quoted text clipped - 205 lines] > paper. And, after Reading, there is Writing, Use of English, Listening > and Speaking. Argh! Missed this! Think I got them all right though... I still don't like 'nagged' - 'moaned' would be better, and since this was probably written we've got the excellent and onamatopaeic word 'whinge'. DC > Speaking of which, here is a few questions from a sample Proficiency > test. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (A, B, C or D) best fits each > gap. Mark your answers on the separate answer sheet. OK Enrico, I'm going to roll up my sleeves & give it a go. > Jerome Flynn > Actor Turned Singer After a variety of jobs, Jerome > Flynn became (1).... C hugely - we want to stress they had massive success, not say they were mainly successful,or fat! > successful with fellow actor Robson Green in the > TV series Soldier, Soldier, it was rubbish though... > and then when they (2).... up as singers B teamed (together - no other people were involved) > in > 1995, they had three number one hits. 'It was a whirlwind, fantasy > time,' says Jerome. 'We made the records because we quite (3).... the > money, and it paid off. D fancied, as discussed > It was a lot of fun, but you can become > (4).... > in the pop world. D caught up - in the sense of 'trapped' > It's addictive, and once you're a pop star, people > tend to (5).... you on a pedestal. C put - 'put you on a pedestal' is the idiom > It was so mad we had to get out > while the going was good. Now money doesn't mean so much, although it > (6).... me to leave my career behind for a while. 6 A enabled > 1 A greatly B largely C hugely D grossly > 2 A joined B teamed C fixed D grouped [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The Sailing Trip > A few days ago, I was (7).... my new sailing gear 7 A going through - the others have the wrong prepositions or mean something else > ready > for my first long trip, around the coast of Britain on the sailing > ship Hirta. I watched a TV report of some fellow yachtsmen crossing > the finishing (8).... off a place called Ushant to complete a record C line - that's what you call the line the winner crosses in any race; F1, horses, rowing, athletics... > round-the-world voyage. The sea was rough, the wind looked fierce > and, although they were putting a brave (9).... on it, the winning A face - again, that's the idiom > yachtsmen looked exhausted. What I was seeing on the television > screen was not my (10).... of yachting. I felt smug knowing I had this B idea. Again it's an idiom - there's a song by Garbage "Not my idea of a good time". > marvellous opportunity to drift gently round Britain learning to > sail, and that I would be steering (11).... of the horrors of ocean D clear. Another idiom:- "I got an email - somebody in Nigeria wants to send money into my bank account" "I'd steer (well) clear of that if I was you." > sailing. Casually I looked up Ushant on the map. I went quite cold: > Ushant was (12).... 32 kilometres further south than the starting D barely. With the meaning 'only just; as close as that'. She's saying the terrible weather was very close to her own starting point. > point > for my great journey on the Hirta. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > taxi her husband concealed a small sigh. With Mrs Murgatroyd there > was always another thing. No matter how well things were (13)...., C going. A bit easier that one... > Edna > Murgatroyd went through life to the accompaniment of a running > commentary of complaints, an endless litany of dissatisfaction. In > short, she (14).... without cease. In the seat beside the driver, A nagged, I suppose, but I don't think any of them work. I think of 'nagging' as being something you do to *someone* "my Mum's always nagging me". > Higgins, the young executive from head office, who had been selected > for the week's vacation at the (15).... of the bank on the grounds of B expense. The rest mean different things. This sounds very old-fashioned language, 1950s at the most recent. > being 'most (16).... newcomer' of the year, sat silent. He was in A promising > foreign exchange, an eager young man whom they had only met at London > airport There are now four 'London Airports'. Today we'd say, Heathrow, Gatwick... > twelve hours earlier and whose natural enthusiasm had > gradually (17).... away before the onslaught of Mrs Murgatroyd. The B ebbed. Another idiom. Ebbing is what the tide does. > driver, full of smiles when they selected his taxi for the run to the > hotel a few minutes earlier, had also caught the mood, and he too had > (18).... into silence. C lapsed. Collocation really, you can lapse into silence, into a coma, be a lapsed catholic or let your party membership lapse - there aren't a lot of other uses for the word I can think of off the top of my .... A brain B head C thought D idea Your turn! Django <snip of interesting comments and explanations> > of other uses for the word I can think of off the top of my .... > > A brain B head C thought D idea > Your turn! E, hat, as "running in my hat", of course! Just kidding ;) SignatureEnrico C News: www.40tude.com/dialog - Mail: www.ritlabs.com/the_bat Local News/Mail Server: http://tglsoft.de/misc/hamster_en.htm > a few questions from a sample Proficiency > test. > What do you think of them? Here are four more Proficiency questions [19-22 of the sample paper]. I'll post the answers afterwards. Part 2 You are going to read four extracts which are all concerned in some way with products. For questions 19-26, choose the answer (A, B, C or D) which you think fits best according to the text. Advertisement for a Video * You want to improve the quality of life, without using drugs or stimulants * you are ready to start the journey back to health and fitness, however short or long it may be * you would prefer to use stress to your advantage rather than be its victim * you are prepared to take charge of your own destiny and benefit from your own well-being * you would like to get back the shape nature intended you to have * you like to understand the principles behind concepts before taking action * you want to enhance your mental powers and your ability to focus on the task in hand * short-term fixes, be they through patches or pills, gimmicks or gizmos, hold no appeal * you are prepared to take a step at a time, build upon your success and take pleasure in the results * you have the temperament and strength of character to endure the journey to physical, mental and spiritual health This is the video for you! Q.19 The advertised video is aimed at people who A are capable of perseverance. B have been trying to change career. C are too absorbed in their work. D would like to change their personalities. Q.20 Which of these words is used dismissively? A stress (line 4) B principles (line 8) C patches (line 11) D journey (line 15) How important is design? All toasters are not exactly the same under the skin but they are as near as makes no difference. They are boxes which neatly grill the bread, waffles or whatever between little electric fires and eject them just before they start to burn: an easy, well-proven technology whether it is purely mechanical or microchip-controlled. The last fundamental innovation in toaster design was in 1927, when the Sunbeam company of America marketed the first pop-up model. Since then, there has been little to do design-wise except to alter the styling according to the tastes of the times. Designers try to give toasters the equivalent of sunroofs and antilock brakes - wider slots, double slots, "cool wall" designs and the like - but cannot get away from the fact that you need only two controls: a push-down lever and a timer. Upgrades merely dress up a timeless concept and are anyway almost all adopted immediately by other manufacturers. So what you buy is styling, which can be a dirty word among "pure" designers, since it is really just packaging, little different from the box the toaster comes in. "Real" design, it is said, is more fundamental. This is arguable: one of the greatest designers of the 20th century, the French-born, America-based Raymond Loewy, was principally a stylist, and who can argue with the power of his famous creation, the Coca Cola bottle, which is functionally far less efficient than a standard beer or wine bottle? Q.21 What does the writer say about developments in the design of toasters? A They have spoilt the original design. B They are made to fool the public. C They are copied from other types of product. D They have only been superficial. Q.22 The writer uses the Coca Cola bottle as an example of A the advantages of using "real" design. B the fact that success may not depend on good design. C the kind of thing that "pure" designers approve of. D the unpredictability of public response to style. Signature(T)EFL online communities http://groups.msn.com/TEFL As you know well I am far from being a Proficiency but I'll try... Q 19 A Q 20 C Q 21 B Q 22 B Look, the Q 19 is extremely confusing ... But, My Dear Enrico, if I don't have anyone right... please just say... Thanks Irma :-) ok? Thanks, Irma. > As you know well I am far from being a Proficiency but I'll try... And here comes the answer sheet :) > Q 19 A A > Q 20 C C > Q 21 B They say D is the right answer. Sorry! > Q 22 B B > Look, the Q 19 is extremely confusing ... Some questions are a bit confusing to me as well. One has to guess what the authors had in their mind, to get them right! Am I wrong? > But, My Dear Enrico, if I don't have anyone right... please just say... You scored three out of four, that's good! :-) Signature(T)EFL online communities http://groups.msn.com/TEFL Good Morning Enrico :-) Your post goes so well with my morning coffee... > And here comes the answer sheet :) > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > They say D is the right answer. Sorry! Yes they are right! I did read properly. It was not difficult to answer... I hate this you know... >> Q 22 B > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > what the authors had in their mind, to get them right! > Am I wrong? Absolutely not. You are right :-) >> But, My Dear Enrico, if I don't have anyone right... please just say... > > You scored three out of four, that's good! :-) Thanks a lot. I feel great! I have to say something. Q 19 I answered just by feeling... I think that more or less 90% of my mistakes is because I rethink the answer. I mean, I read the question, I read the answer and immediately get the right answer but then I start thinking well but this one could be right as well.. I doubt about my first choice, I change my answer and it is wrong, my first choice was right. I don't know if it is lack of confidence or what. Thanks again for these questions, and have a nice day! Irma. >about the snooker. Is it popular in Germany or are you watching the BBC >on satelite TV? I think it is popular in Germany, since you watch the tournaments in Eurosport .de :-) local t.v. Of course with a German broadcaster. Is it right broadcaster, commentator or narrator? >I know snooker became popular in Belgium in the 70s >because people in coastal areas could pick up British TV; and, of course, >it's a game you can follow without having to understand the commentary, so >people who weren't English speakers could get into watching that channel. >I watched a few frames of the Hendry match yesterday - I'd forgotten what >an ingrossing game it is. But is it sport? Is darts? I really don't know if it is considered a sport or not... As for me, it is a fascinating game. :-) >> about the snooker. Is it popular in Germany or are you watching the BBC >> on satelite TV? > > I think it is popular in Germany, since you watch the tournaments in > Eurosport .de :-) local t.v. Of course with a German broadcaster. > Is it right broadcaster, commentator or narrator? Oh, right - we get Eurosport too. broadcaster, - old usage, a professional journalist or expert who's often on the Radio (not TV I think...?) - newer usage, the organisation - BBC, Eurosport, Fox are all broadcasters commentator - usually the person who explains what's happening in a sports broadcast narrator - in fiction, the person telling the story; sometimes involved in the story, sometimes not. In movies you sometimes have a voice over, with one of the characters telling you their thoughts - it happens in 'American Beauty'. DC (... Ah! but I will be 5 hours in Heathrow Airport > in my trip to Mexico next June. Belive me I will enjoy it a lot :-) PS. I suppose you can't leave the airport, which is a shame, because 5 hours is plenty of time to get the tube from Heathrow into the centre of London and see some of the sights. DC > PS. I suppose you can't leave the airport, which is a shame, because 5 > hours is plenty of time to get the tube from Heathrow into the centre of > London and see some of the sights. How long does it *really* take from Heathrow to London by train? SignatureEnrico C News: www.40tude.com/dialog - Mail: www.ritlabs.com/the_bat Local News/Mail Server: http://tglsoft.de/misc/hamster_en.htm >> PS. I suppose you can't leave the airport, which is a shame, because 5 >> hours is plenty of time to get the tube from Heathrow into the centre of >> London and see some of the sights. > > How long does it *really* take from Heathrow to London by train? OK Enrico, it's a while since I've done it! But it can't be more than an hour by tube can it? DC >(... Ah! but I will be 5 hours in Heathrow Airport >> in my trip to Mexico next June. Belive me I will enjoy it a lot :-) > >PS. I suppose you can't leave the airport, which is a shame, because 5 >hours is plenty of time to get the tube from Heathrow into the centre of >London and see some of the sights. I don't think I need visa since, last time I was there just for the change of planes, there was no one guarding me, like the time I was in Chicago. I was guarded in an office for 5 hours. I couldn't wandering around, they don't see us like tourist but like potential illegals. I wonder why... :-))) Anyway, I was ordered to make some shoppings for my sisters, souvenirs and things, so I will have plenty of opportunities to practice my English :-) Thanks anyway for the advice. Irma. |
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