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Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / August 2004Pronunciation of 'try'
Hi folks, The last time many of you helped me to clear a doubt. Thanks again. English is not my native language, thus I am in a steady learning. I have heard some people to pronounce 'try' as /tSrai/ instead /trai/, Do you think this manner is correct or acceptable too? Thanks in advance Ariel Medina (MX) > I have heard some people to pronounce 'try' as /tSrai/ instead /trai/, > Do you think this manner is correct or acceptable too? No. The proper pronunciation is /trAI/.  SignatureTranspose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. > > I have heard some people to pronounce 'try' as /tSrai/ instead /trai/, > > Do you think this manner is correct or acceptable too? > > No. The proper pronunciation is /trAI/. Strange... I have been mulling this one over. At first, I agreed with the /trAI/ version, but when I pronounce it out loud (and I'm a native speaker from the UK) and I say it quickly, I definitely say /tSrai/ This may be a UK vs USA issue, since us (southern) brits tend not to pronounce an "r" if we get half a chance. Furthermore, anyone who cant pronounce their "r" definitely uses this version. The Scottish would say /trai/. So, depending on what sort of accent you are developing, or which community of English speakers you spend time with the most, you'll have to chose the appropriate one. From my (passive Holywood) experience of American English, I'm pretty sure I've heard both versions... Americans I know, especially those who speak with a lot of slang seem to use this "lazy" version, though pronouncing "r" strongly is definitely a US trait. In my opinion then this version is perfectly acceptable. It depends if your pronunciation is being formally assessed in an exam I guess. Huw. > Strange... I have been mulling this one over. At first, I agreed with > the /trAI/ version, but when I pronounce it out loud (and I'm a native > speaker from the UK) and I say it quickly, I definitely say /tSrai/ It may be a regional variation. I've heard some people from the UK say [sTIN] for "thing," which always mystifies me. I'm not aware of this being part of RP, although I may be wrong (but most RP speakers don't say it this way). SignatureTranspose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. > Hi folks, > > The last time many of you helped me to clear a doubt. Thanks again. > > English is not my native language, thus I am in a steady learning. "...thus I am steadily learning." > I have heard some people to pronounce 'try' as /tSrai/ instead /trai/, > Do you think this manner is correct or acceptable too? If the /S/ is the usual sh sound, no, I don't think that's acceptable. Are they doing it because of problems connecting the /t/ and the /r/ sounds? Or can't they make the /t/ sound at all? It sounds like an error that would help give one an Asian accent. Signature"It has to be big", Tyler says. "Picture this: you on top of the worlds tallest building, the whole building taken over by Project Mayhem. Smoke rolling out of the windows. Desks falling into the crowds on the street. A real opera of death, thats what youre going to get." -+Chuck Palahniuk, "Fight Club" > > Hi folks, > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sounds? Or can't they make the /t/ sound at all? It sounds like an error > that would help give one an Asian accent. Thanks for reply, I think too they have problems to connect /t/ and /r/. I have experienced it is difficult to pronounce and is easier say /tSrai/ instead /trai/. Ariel Medina > > > Hi folks, > > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > I think too they have problems to connect /t/ and /r/. I have "I also think that they have problems connecting...." > experienced it is difficult to pronounce and is easier say /tSrai/ > instead /trai/. If you want to work on your accent, I suspect clearing up that issue and making yourself connect the /t/ and /r/ would help greatly. I have no idea if this is a good idea or not, but have you tried other types of /r/ sounds? Try a trill or a tap /r/ with the initial /t/ sound and see if that is also difficult to master. If you can do that, maybe you could perfect it and then later move to the English /r/ sound you are trying to get right. SignatureThat's what is at stake. It is us or them. The chips are down. Two worlds stand against each other. One must die. One must live. One hundred and seventy years of freedom decrees our answer." -+ Frank Capra's "Prelude to War" > > > > Hi folks, > > > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > "I also think that they have problems connecting...." Thanks for correct me. > > experienced it is difficult to pronounce and is easier say /tSrai/ > > instead /trai/. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > perfect it and then later move to the English /r/ sound you are trying > to get right. I used to pronounce the spanish /r/ in english words and it was easy, but I have been studying english phonetic and I realized that both are different. I know how to pronounce english /r/ but I have heard (online dictionaries with sounds) /tSrai/ instead /trai/, however I can be wrong. Regards, Ariel (México) >> > > > The last time many of you helped me to clear a doubt. Thanks again. >> > > > English is not my native language, thus I am in a steady learning. >> > > "...thus I am steadily learning." >> > > > I have heard some people to pronounce 'try' as /tSrai/ instead /trai/, >> > > > Do you think this manner is correct or acceptable too? >> > > If the /S/ is the usual sh sound, no, I don't think that's acceptable. >> > > Are they doing it because of problems connecting the /t/ and the /r/ >> > > sounds? Or can't they make the /t/ sound at all? It sounds like an error >> > > that would help give one an Asian accent. >> > Thanks for reply, >> > I think too they have problems to connect /t/ and /r/. I have >> "I also think that they have problems connecting...." >Thanks for correct me. >> > experienced it is difficult to pronounce and is easier say /tSrai/ >> > instead /trai/. >> If you want to work on your accent, I suspect clearing up that issue and >> making yourself connect the /t/ and /r/ would help greatly. I have no [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> perfect it and then later move to the English /r/ sound you are trying >> to get right. >I used to pronounce the spanish /r/ in english words and it was easy, >but I have been studying english phonetic and I realized that both are >different. I know how to pronounce english /r/ but I have heard >(online dictionaries with sounds) /tSrai/ instead /trai/, however I >can be wrong. Many online dictionaries and computers can't say try as trai, they say t-rai instead. This might be because when the computer attempts to say the t and r, they are using the t that is on the end of a word. This t phoneme has a silence on the end, so the speech synthesiser would say t<silence>rai instead of trai. Sig: I have a brain the size of a planet. It's not much good to me, however. It's on a different planet. > >> > > > The last time many of you helped me to clear a doubt. Thanks again. > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > This t phoneme has a silence on the end, so the speech synthesiser > would say t<silence>rai instead of trai. I've noticed that speech synths tend to say 'computer' as 'compluter'. I wonder why. SignatureThat's what is at stake. It is us or them. The chips are down. Two worlds stand against each other. One must die. One must live. One hundred and seventy years of freedom decrees our answer." -+ Frank Capra's "Prelude to War" > I think too they have problems to connect /t/ and /r/. I have > experienced it is difficult to pronounce and is easier say /tSrai/ > instead /trai/. It's actually more difficult to pronounce /tSrAI/ than /trAI/. It's probably a psychological obstacle for them--that's often the greatest barrier to acquisition of proper pronunciation. Many students of mine have tremendous trouble with /T/ and /D/ because it "feels funny" to pronounce it. But the actual articulation is no more difficult than /s/ or /z/. SignatureTranspose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. > > I think too they have problems to connect /t/ and /r/. I have > > experienced it is difficult to pronounce and is easier say /tSrai/ [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > it "feels funny" to pronounce it. But the actual articulation is no > more difficult than /s/ or /z/. Isn't it really the /r/ that is freaking them out? There's no dental, ridge or velar plosives in their languages? SignatureThat's what is at stake. It is us or them. The chips are down. Two worlds stand against each other. One must die. One must live. One hundred and seventy years of freedom decrees our answer." -+ Frank Capra's "Prelude to War" > > > I think too they have problems to connect /t/ and /r/. I have > > > experienced it is difficult to pronounce and is easier say /tSrai/ [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Isn't it really the /r/ that is freaking them out? There's no dental, > ridge or velar plosives in their languages? Maybe, English, Spanish and French /r/ are different. Regards, Ariel (México) > > > > I think too they have problems to connect /t/ and /r/. I have > > > > experienced it is difficult to pronounce and is easier say /tSrai/ [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Maybe, English, Spanish and French /r/ are different. They are different. I'm wondering if someone with a problem making the English /r/ could try out a Spanish /r/ for test purposes. Once the concept of /r/ is down, the speaker could migrate back to something more correct for English. I know I'd rather hear a trilled /r/ than /tSrAI/. SignatureThat's what is at stake. It is us or them. The chips are down. Two worlds stand against each other. One must die. One must live. One hundred and seventy years of freedom decrees our answer." -+ Frank Capra's "Prelude to War" > They are different. I'm wondering if someone with a problem making the > English /r/ could try out a Spanish /r/ for test purposes. Once the > concept of /r/ is down, the speaker could migrate back to something more > correct for English. What would be the advantage? The Spanish /r/ is not instrinsically any easier to produce, nor is it particularly close to the English /r/. SignatureTranspose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. > > They are different. I'm wondering if someone with a problem making the > > English /r/ could try out a Spanish /r/ for test purposes. Once the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > What would be the advantage? The Spanish /r/ is not instrinsically any > easier to produce, nor is it particularly close to the English /r/. Maybe someone having trouble with one /r/ could make another type more easily. I keep thinking about people whose native languages cause them to muck up the /r/ and /l/ sounds when learning English. If they could get *any* /r/ sound that was consistently distinct from the /l/ sound, that might help. SignatureThat's what is at stake. It is us or them. The chips are down. Two worlds stand against each other. One must die. One must live. One hundred and seventy years of freedom decrees our answer." -+ Frank Capra's "Prelude to War" > Maybe someone having trouble with one /r/ could make another type more > easily. Even if the manage to make another type of /r/, it's just as wrong as the first type was. I've always been mystified by French courses and professors for English speakers who suggest pronouncing the French 'r' as a Spanish-style trill. The trill is just as woefully incorrect as an English 'r', so why bother? > I keep thinking about people whose native languages cause them > to muck up the /r/ and /l/ sounds when learning English. If they could > get *any* /r/ sound that was consistently distinct from the /l/ sound, > that might help. For such students I suspect that every 'r' sound is different enough that there is no cross-competency among them if they learn one. Here again, why not just teach them the correct /r/ to begin with? SignatureTranspose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. > > Maybe someone having trouble with one /r/ could make another type more > > easily. > > Even if the manage to make another type of /r/, it's just as wrong as > the first type was. If the first /r/ was really an /l/, it isn't just as bad. > I've always been mystified by French courses and professors for English > speakers who suggest pronouncing the French 'r' as a Spanish-style > trill. The trill is just as woefully incorrect as an English 'r', so > why bother? Because the trill is used by some dialects of French. > > I keep thinking about people whose native languages cause them > > to muck up the /r/ and /l/ sounds when learning English. If they could [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that there is no cross-competency among them if they learn one. Here > again, why not just teach them the correct /r/ to begin with? Obviously it isn't working out. In English, you really need an /r/ and /l/ that don't merge, the exact type of /r/ being less important than the not merging, in my opinion. SignatureThat's what is at stake. It is us or them. The chips are down. Two worlds stand against each other. One must die. One must live. One hundred and seventy years of freedom decrees our answer." -+ Frank Capra's "Prelude to War" > Because the trill is used by some dialects of French. That's what they always say, but actual examples are scarce--so scarce, in fact, that it is very misleading to imply that a trilled 'r' could ever be an acceptable option in French. SignatureTranspose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. > > Because the trill is used by some dialects of French. > > That's what they always say, but actual examples are scarce--so scarce, > in fact, that it is very misleading to imply that a trilled 'r' could > ever be an acceptable option in French. The implication that anything short of perfection as defined by the French could ever be an acceptable option in French is very misleading. SignatureThat's what is at stake. It is us or them. The chips are down. Two worlds stand against each other. One must die. One must live. One hundred and seventy years of freedom decrees our answer." -+ Frank Capra's "Prelude to War" > Maybe, English, Spanish and French /r/ are different. IIRC: English: usually an alveolar retroflex approximant. Some dialects use an alveolar trill, but this is rare (marked RP may use it, though). The IPA symbol is an upside-down roman 'r'. French: usually a uvular fricative. Some dialects use a uvular trill or an alveolar trill, but this is rare. The IPA symbol is an upside down small caps 'r'. Spanish: normally an alveolar trill or flap (the difference between the two is phonemic). The IPA symbol is a standard lowercase roman 'r' for the trill, and a special 'r'-like symbol for the flap. The flap is also used in English for some intervocalic consonants, such as the 'tt' in "butter" (in most dialects). SignatureTranspose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. > Isn't it really the /r/ that is freaking them out? No, surprisingly. Many of them master the retroflex 'r' fairly quickly. Those who don't often will with just a few minutes of instruction on how to produce it. A few students have a really hard time with it and will continue to pronounce a French 'r'. Fortunately, either type of 'r' will work in either language, as rhotics are sufficiently distinctive as a class that it's possible to get away with using the wrong one. > There's no dental, ridge or velar plosives in their languages? French has the same alveolar and velar plosives as English, with only very minor (non-phonemic) differences in articulation that can be ignored for any student that isn't bent on completely suppressing an accent. Neither English nor French has dental plosives that I'm aware of. SignatureTranspose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. [...] > French has the same alveolar and velar plosives as English, with only > very minor (non-phonemic) differences in articulation that can be > ignored for any student that isn't bent on completely suppressing an > accent. Neither English nor French has dental plosives that I'm aware > of. ?? Every description I've ever read of French pronunciation for English speakers has made a point of the fact that French /t/, /d/ and /n/ are dental, unlike their alveolar English counterparts. And I myself can definitely hear the difference; if I use alveolar plosives when speaking French, I sound like I have an English accent (only slight, if I do everything else right). SignatureJim Heckman > ?? Every description I've ever read of French pronunciation for > English speakers has made a point of the fact that French /t/, > /d/ and /n/ are dental, unlike their alveolar English > counterparts. These consonants are more advanced, but the speaker doesn't really have his tongue up against his teeth (just behind them, actually). For /T/ and /D/, the tongue really does have to be touching the teeth from directly behind. In any case, Francophone students have trouble with the latter sound, which implies that the more dental character of /t/ and /d/ aren't that significant or helpful. > And I myself can definitely hear the difference; > if I use alveolar plosives when speaking French, I sound like I > have an English accent (only slight, if I do everything else > right). The difference is audible. I don't normally mention it to students until they've got just about everything right, though, as it affects only accent and there's no point in addressing it if they are making other gross errors in pronunciation. SignatureTranspose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. On 21-Aug-2004, Mxsmanic <mxsmanic@hotmail.com> wrote in message <i67ei0l7mjhq3al8ktmlp376djtjkabo78@4ax.com>: > > ?? Every description I've ever read of French pronunciation for > > English speakers has made a point of the fact that French /t/, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > These consonants are more advanced, but the speaker doesn't really have > his tongue up against his teeth (just behind them, actually). I, and many authorities, disagree. In French dental stops, the very tip of the tongue does indeed touch the back of the upper teeth. This is not to say that the blade of the tongue doesn't also make contact with the alveolar ridge. > For /T/ > and /D/, the tongue really does have to be touching the teeth from > directly behind. In any case, Francophone students have trouble with > the latter sound, which implies that the more dental character of /t/ > and /d/ aren't that significant or helpful. In my own native Californian speech -- and I believe in many other English accents -- /T/ and /D/ are usually actually pronounced as *inter*dentals: The tongue touches both the upper and lower teeth, with the tip even protruding between them a little. So it's not surprising that there's not much help to be had for native French speakers from comparing these with their own dental stops. [...] SignatureJim Heckman > I, and many authorities, disagree. In French dental stops, the > very tip of the tongue does indeed touch the back of the upper > teeth. If it actually butts up against the teeth, it can easily pass from stop to fricative, and so it usually doesn't. In my own case it doesn't. The tip of the tongue is against the alveolar ridge just barely behind the teeth. The teeth are in contact with the tongue, but they aren't the main contact point. If I try to move my tongue any further forward, I get a fricative, since the gaps between the teeth aren't airtight. I suppose you can call this dental to contrast it with alveolar, but it's not dental as compared to /T/ or /D/, in which the principal point of articulation is right against (and between) the teeth. If this were not so, I'd expect French speakers to have a lot less trouble with /T/ and /D/. SignatureTranspose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly. On 16-Aug-2004, ariel_medina21@hotmail.com (Ariel Alonzo Medina V?zquez) wrote in message <83bb2d66.0408161132.7f89be5f@posting.google.com>: > Hi folks, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I have heard some people to pronounce 'try' as /tSrai/ instead /trai/, You're probably hearing some affrication/assibilation of the /t/, which is a natural of result of its normal, aspirated pronunciation [t<h>] in word-initial position. This audible friction in the post-alveolar/pre-palatal region is even more noticeable when [t<h>] is followed by /r/, realized here as an alveolar or retroflex approximant. > Do you think this manner is correct or acceptable too? > > Thanks in advance SignatureJim Heckman > On 16-Aug-2004, ariel_medina21@hotmail.com (Ariel Alonzo Medina V?zquez) > wrote in message <83bb2d66.0408161132.7f89be5f@posting.google.com>: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > > Thanks in advance Thanks for your comments, Maybe the sound I hear is what you say. Ariel Medina On 19-Aug-2004, ariel_medina21@hotmail.com (Ariel Alonzo Medina V?zquez) wrote in message <83bb2d66.0408191143.420d6641@posting.google.com>: > > On 16-Aug-2004, ariel_medina21@hotmail.com (Ariel Alonzo Medina V?zquez) > > wrote in message <83bb2d66.0408161132.7f89be5f@posting.google.com>: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Maybe the sound I hear is what you say. By an amazing coincidence, this very subject just came up in a thread over in alt.usage.english. It turns out that apparently some British accents do have <try> = /tSraI/. See: <http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&threadm=10ibc9lnh2snq1e %40corp.supernews.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dgroup:alt.usage.english%2Bauthor :heckman%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26c2coff%3D1%26selm%3D10ibc9lnh2snq1e%25 40corp.supernews.com%26rnum%3D1> SignatureJim Heckman > On 19-Aug-2004, ariel_medina21@hotmail.com (Ariel Alonzo Medina V?zquez) > wrote in message <83bb2d66.0408191143.420d6641@posting.google.com>: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > <http://www.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&threadm=10ibc9lnh2snq1e %40corp.supernews.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dgroup:alt.usage.english%2Bauthor :heckman%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26c2coff%3D1%26selm%3D10ibc9lnh2snq1e%25 40corp.supernews.com%26rnum%3D1> It is very interesting, We can notice a phenomenon as in American English: New York people accent is different than Texas and California people accent. Finally, 1. People do not respect Standard American English 2. People do not respect Received Pronunciation (British English) 3. We should be able to understand so many accents. Ariel (México) "try" I am sure is not your only problem, coz I am not an English speaker and have found a program that helps me with me whole sentences. "try" it www.whitesmoke.com its free and great. Let me know after you have opened it Danny > > On 19-Aug-2004, ariel_medina21@hotmail.com (Ariel Alonzo Medina V?zquez) > > wrote in message <83bb2d66.0408191143.420d6641@posting.google.com>: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > > Ariel (México) |
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