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Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / November 2004word order
why is it so hard to teach SOV EFL students that English is a SVO language? katrin wrote on 25 Oct 2004: > why is it so hard to teach SOV EFL students that English is a SVO > language? It's not, you know. What's hard is to teach people not to apply the grammatical structure of their native language to a second or later foreign language. When I first came to Taiwan and started to speak Chinese, I consistently used Japanese word order, SOV, which seems much more reasonable and logical to me than SVO. Japanese was my fourth language, but it left a strong impression on me.  SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. > katrin wrote on 25 Oct 2004: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > consistently used Japanese word order, SOV, which seems much more > reasonable and logical to me than SVO. Why? Any time a language without unambiguous word endings on its nouns and adjectives puts a S and O together, there is risk that it will become unclear where one stops and the other starts. Signature"In August Rudyard's listlessness called for another series of major and very unpleasant medical examinations.... He later joked ... 'If this is what Oscar Wilde went to prison for, he ought to have got the Victoria Cross.'", Andrew Lycett, "Rudyard Kipling" Bill Bonde wrote: >> katrin wrote on 25 Oct 2004: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > nouns and adjectives puts a S and O together, there is risk that > it will become unclear where one stops and the other starts. Japanese has clear markers to differentiate Ss from Os. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. > Bill Bonde wrote: > >> katrin wrote on 25 Oct 2004: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Japanese has clear markers to differentiate Ss from Os. You mean separators or declensions? SignatureSo I was feeding the hummingbirds but not changing the feeder sugar water quickly enough and it fermented into something like that stuff that Hunter S Thompson was drinking in the Rum Diary, anyway, so I had these drunk birds flying everywhere just like mosquitoes in Minnesota, dashing up one side of me, darting down the other, crashing into the windows, falling off their perches, didn't even know they perched, flying backwards, flying backwards, it was like something out of the Exorcist. After a while though, I got bored with it all. Next Summer I'm going to Alaska to feed french bread soaked in Wild Turkey to polar bears. Wish me luck! Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down on Broadway'' ) wrote on 11 Nov 2004: >> Bill Bonde wrote: >> >> katrin wrote on 25 Oct 2004: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> > You mean separators or declensions? I mean particles. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. > Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down on Broadway'' ) wrote on 11 Nov > 2004: [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > I mean particles. So it's like a divider, a preposition type bit? Signature"Throw me that lipstick, darling, I wanna redo my stigmata." +-Jennifer Saunders, "Absolutely Fabulous" Bill Bonde wrote: >> Bill Bonde wrote: >> >> Bill Bonde wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> > So it's like a divider, a preposition type bit? They're postpositions in Japanese. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. > Bill Bonde wrote: > >> Bill Bonde wrote: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > They're postpositions in Japanese. I guess I should pay more attention to Japanese grammar. In any case, are you saying that a postposition is used on the direct object and indirect object as some sort of rule? In English, some verbs just cause problems and confusion. For example, the verb "to call": "He called the man friend." Signature"Throw me that lipstick, darling, I wanna redo my stigmata." +-Jennifer Saunders, "Absolutely Fabulous" Bill Bonde wrote: [...] > I guess I should pay more attention to Japanese grammar. In any > case, are you saying that a postposition is used on the direct > object and indirect object as some sort of rule? Yes. For example: Ichi-jikan mae wa John ga Mary ni hana wo ageta. The content in this sentence is not terribly realistic; it's just an illustration of how things work. A: Alright, then. What happened? B: [The Japanese sentence above:] An hour ago [topic marker], John [subj marker] Mary [IO marker] flowers [DO marker] gave. > In English, some verbs just cause problems and confusion. > For example, the verb "to call": "He called the man friend." Japanese has its grammatical problems too, but that isn't one of them. But my Japanese is far too rusty to be giving grammar lectures. There are a couple of others here who know more about Japanese grammar than I do and can give you a better explanation. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. > Bill Bonde wrote: > [...] [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > B: [The Japanese sentence above:] An hour ago [topic marker], John > [subj marker] Mary [IO marker] flowers [DO marker] gave. That's a pretty cool idea. > > In English, some verbs just cause problems and confusion. > > For example, the verb "to call": "He called the man friend." > > Japanese has its grammatical problems too, but that isn't one of them. It happens all the time in English. > But my Japanese is far too rusty to be giving grammar lectures. There Remember, I either don't remember or never knew so I'm easy. I'll pay more attention to Japanese when I get the chances. > are a couple of others here who know more about Japanese grammar than I > do and can give you a better explanation. I got from what you were saying that Japanese uses post-positions to separate the various subject and object noun phrases, rather than, say, inflecting much of it, as in, say, Russian. SignatureI heard Clinton buried a time capsule at his new presidential library sized like an overseas shipping container filled with stuff he didn't want anyone to find till long after his death, the real deed to Whitewater, the envelope for the Tyson Foods chicken payoffs, the real gun he used to whack Foster, the keys to the Exocet missile he took Ron Brown out with, copies of another few thousand illegally acquired FBI files on his enemies, tickets to Tahiti from the White House Travel Office, a few more soiled dresses, a couple of cases of well chewed Cuban cigars, and the unabridged version of his autobiography. That last one was touch and go just getting the bugger in. Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down on Broadway'' ) wrote on 18 Nov 2004: >> Bill Bonde wrote: >> [...] [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > to separate the various subject and object noun phrases, rather > than, say, inflecting much of it, as in, say, Russian. No inflections, no case-marker affixes, only past markers on verbs. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. |
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