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Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / November 2004pronounciation before meaning
Teachers tell students to practice reading. Students then run across many words they've never heard pronounced. As they see the word, they mangle the pronounciation. How important is it to first be familiar with the pronounciation of a word before learning its meaning? Would a drill where a student hears a word and is asked to quickly pick out the word in a list be helpful even though there is no meaning associated with the word? Or would the student's time be better spent practicing reading? Don Myers wrote on 20 Nov 2004: > Teachers tell students to practice reading. Students then run > across many words they've never heard pronounced. As they see the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pick out the word in a list be helpful even though there is no > meaning associated with the word? I think there is no point in teaching students how to spell or pronounce words without providing their associated meanings. I also think there is no point in teaching vocabulary lists in which the words are defined out of the context of a piece of discourse being studied in the class. A list of the most common English spelling/pronunciation anomalies would undoubtedly be helpful to enough EFL/ESL students to make the time spent worthwhile, especially if the list were on a CD that the student could read and listen to at home or in a language lab. > Or would the student's time be better spent practicing reading? I think this is probably time better spent. It wasn't until quite late in my childhood that I understood the difference between "subtle" and "suttle". I had never heard the first but had frequently read it; I had often heard the second but had never read it. Until I had to learn the word for a spelling test, I had always imagined that there were two words. Anyone with a dictionary that either provides phonetic transcriptions for the words it defines or audio files that pronounce the words in one or more of the major English dialects ought to be able to acquire the correct pronunciation without needing a teacher's help. But if you have some control over what the students are reading, then it would probably be helpful to point out any potential pronunciation problems you are aware of, eg "subtle" and "knight". OTOH, it might be even more helpful to ask students to make sure that they know how to pronounce all the words (proper names can be excepted because their pronunciations are often arbitrary and inconsistent by region and dialect) and then teach them how to find the pronunciations for themselves in paper, electronic, and Web-based dictionaries.  SignatureFranke: native anglophone, EFL teacher, & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. > Don Myers wrote on 20 Nov 2004: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I think there is no point in teaching students how to spell or > pronounce words without providing their associated meanings. I was arguing this over in sci.lang a few months ago, well, not exactly this. I was saying that what was hard about a new word was learning the word, its sound mainly, and not its meaning, which I claimed could be dealt with at any time, at will even. I think that perhaps ten percent of the cost of learning a word is in learning its meaning and the rest is learning its sound, how to say it. > I also > think there is no point in teaching vocabulary lists in which the > words are defined out of the context of a piece of discourse being > studied in the class. I think what matters is finding the set of words to learn that let you speak, think and exist in a language enough that you will start to speak, think and exist in that language. It only makes logical sense that this set of words be the set of words most easily learned by the learner. This may not be the same set of words for all learners. "Bill Bonde ( ``And the Lamb lies down on Broadway'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote: >> Don Myers wrote on 20 Nov 2004: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >of the cost of learning a word is in learning its meaning and the rest >is learning its sound, how to say it. Agreed! I think what you say is especially true for the English language. >> I also >> think there is no point in teaching vocabulary lists in which the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >that this set of words be the set of words most easily learned by the >learner. This may not be the same set of words for all learners. I am no expert, but that makes sense to me :-) SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- X-Privat "FREE Usenet" - http://www.newsserver.it >Anyone with a dictionary that either provides phonetic transcriptions >for the words it defines or audio files that pronounce the words in >one or more of the major English dialects ought to be able to acquire >the correct pronunciation without needing a teacher's help. That could be said for virtually anything: you can find the meaning of words on dictionaries and grammar rules on grammar books. Yet, teachers are still useful, aren't they? In the case of pronunciation, I think teachers' aid during reading exercises is even more important, because: 1) it's not practical to look up *all* the words in a passage. Perhaps I will look up the words I am not sure about, but then there are some words I *think* I can pronounce but I actually pronounce them wrong, so I need a native speaker who tells me if I am doing well or I am not! 2) Even if I know the correct pron in theory, I might not be able to utter properly the English sounds because they are different from those in my language, so - again - I just need someone who corrects me and helps me out with pronunciation. SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- X-Privat "FREE Usenet" - http://www.newsserver.it Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: >>Anyone with a dictionary that either provides Should have been "provides either". >> phonetic >>transcriptions for the words it defines or audio files that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > meaning of words on dictionaries and grammar rules on grammar > books. If you want to be absurd --- and you are being absurd, you know --- please limit your posts to alt.absurd.replies. > Yet, teachers are still useful, aren't they? A pronouncing dictionary should be sufficient; a phonetic transcription might not be, so, yes, a teacher might be useful. Definitions and grammar rules are much more difficult to interpret, especially for beginners and lower-level language students. Usage examples aren't always provided in dictionaries, so a teacher would be useful for these types of problems. > In the case of pronunciation, I think teachers' aid during reading > exercises is even more important, because: > 1) it's not practical to look up *all* the words in a passage. No, but it might be necessary. > Perhaps I will look up the words I am not sure about, but then > there are some words I *think* I can pronounce but I actually > pronounce them wrong, so I need a native speaker who tells me if I > am doing well or I am not! That's why I suggested that the teacher provide a list of the problem words in a reading passage, with definitions and pronunciations, preferably on a CD-ROM or tape. Even we native speakers sometimes mispronounce words, though. English is not spelled phonetically. > 2) Even if I know the correct pron in > theory, I might not be able to utter properly the English sounds > because they are different from those in my language, so - again - > I just need someone who corrects me and helps me out with > pronunciation. That kind of help is something you need from a speech therapist, not an EFL teacher. I've been trying to teach my wife how to say "apple" for the past 9 years. She still says it as [ei' p@l]. If your ear is good enough and your tongue is not tied, you should be able to produce *almost any* sound from any target L2 you're learning. Some are more difficult than others, of course, but that's true for native speakers as well. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. >Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >If you want to be absurd --- and you are being absurd, you know --- >please limit your posts to alt.absurd.replies. What do you find so absurd in my reply? >> Yet, teachers are still useful, aren't they? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Definitions and grammar rules are much more difficult to interpret, >especially for beginners and lower-level language students. Pronunciation can be damn difficult to interpret too, for those students. > Usage >examples aren't always provided in dictionaries, so a teacher would >be useful for these types of problems. There are learner's dictionaries and usage manuals as well. >> In the case of pronunciation, I think teachers' aid during reading >> exercises is even more important, because: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >That kind of help is something you need from a speech therapist, not >an EFL teacher. I beg to differ. I think any native speaker with a good ear can help a lot an ESL/EFL learner trying to imitate English sounds. That, at last, was my personal experience: I was much helped by a friend who corrected me while I spoke or read. > I've been trying to teach my wife how to say "apple" >for the past 9 years. She still says it as [ei' p@l]. If your ear is >good enough and your tongue is not tied, you should be able to >produce *almost any* sound from any target L2 you're learning. Some >are more difficult than others, of course, but that's true for native >speakers as well. SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- X-Privat "FREE Usenet" - http://www.newsserver.it Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: >>Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > What do you find so absurd in my reply? That you compare using a talking dictionary or the phonetic transcriptions in a dictionary to "just about anything". It's about as meaningful as my wife's reply to the question "Where is X?" She always says "It's somewhere". >>> Yet, teachers are still useful, aren't they? >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Pronunciation can be damn difficult to interpret too, for those > students. If you can't hear the pronunciation, then you need better ears, not a teacher. >> Usage examples aren't always provided in dictionaries, >> so a teacher would be useful for these types of problems. > > There are learner's dictionaries and usage manuals as well. Yes, but not everyone has one, and beginners find them difficult to use and understand. [...] >>> 2) Even if I know the correct pron in >>> theory, I might not be able to utter properly the English sounds [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > That, at last, was my personal experience: I was much helped by a > friend who corrected me while I spoke or read. You've just destroyed your argument for teachers. That's how I learned how to speak Japanese properly: native speakers corrected me when I made pronunciation and usage mistakes. In that respect, every native speaker is a teacher. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. >Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: >>>Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >as meaningful as my wife's reply to the question "Where is X?" She >always says "It's somewhere". I see. >>>> Yet, teachers are still useful, aren't they? >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >If you can't hear the pronunciation, then you need better ears, not a >teacher. I would like better ears. Funnily enough, I reckon most people need them. I noticed most English people trying to learn Italian, for instance, have troubles saying Italian Rs and Es. >>> Usage examples aren't always provided in dictionaries, >>> so a teacher would be useful for these types of problems. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >when I made pronunciation and usage mistakes. In that respect, every >native speaker is a teacher. Actually, one can think of a "teacher" in a more general sense, I mean anyone who explains, corrects, helps, not just a professional teacher. :) SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- GIGAMAIL By X-Privat - http://www.x-privat.org/gigamail.php Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: [...] >>If you can't hear the pronunciation, then you need better ears, >>not a teacher. > > I would like better ears. Funnily enough, I reckon most people > need them. I noticed most English people trying to learn Italian, > for instance, have troubles saying Italian Rs and Es. I've noticed the same thing here in Taiwan and back in Japan. I also noticed it in many of my friends back in the US: they just can't hear and reproduce sounds that aren't in their own language, and even when the sound are in their own language, they can't get 'em straight. My father used to mangle the pronunciation of the Japanese name of my old online bookstore all the time. He always replaced the initial [i] with the "u" in "up" and the [ei] with an [i]. [i] and [ei] are normal American English vowels. [...] >>You've just destroyed your argument for teachers. That's how I >>learned how to speak Japanese properly: native speakers corrected [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > teacher. >:) Yes, I agree. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. >Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> need them. I noticed most English people trying to learn Italian, >> for instance, have troubles saying Italian Rs and Es. And the GL soft sound as well, as in "gli", "gliene", etc. >I've noticed the same thing here in Taiwan and back in Japan. I also >noticed it in many of my friends back in the US: they just can't hear [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the "u" in "up" and the [ei] with an [i]. [i] and [ei] are normal >American English vowels. That's it! I think those kinds of things happen all the time to lots of learners in all languages [unless one has really good ears!], and it's quite hard to notice it without any external help, even if one can listen to the right pronunciation on audio files or read the IPA transcription. On the contrary, I think one can improve a lot if others listen to him/her attentively and make him/her notice what is right and what is wrong, and how he/she should change the sound, even better if they can explain where their tongue exactly is when they utter a certain sound. That's why I argued that a "teacher" [and I mean it in the most general sense, including native speakers and, why not, language therapists] can halp with pronunciation as well as he/she can help with vocabulary, usage or grammar. I understand, of course, that they are different subjects and need different approaches, but I when I had some English classes I had the feeling that too much enphasis is put on grammar and too little on pronunciation, with the result you find learners who know grammar rules ignored by many native speakers but are barely intelligible when they try to utter English sentences! I don't think it's just an individual problem, as I noticed there are common issues for people from the same country. Italians, for instance, have a hard time uttering the English "th" sounds, but also Rs and Ts are different, and all the vowels. In general, we tend to say long vowels even when we are told the English pronunciation is shorter! Italians, for instance, would say ship as sheep and notion as notio:n! If you add that "phonetic divide", so to speak, to the English complex pronunciation rules and irregularities, here is why I insist on this topic! > >[...] [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Yes, I agree. :-) SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- GIGAMAIL By X-Privat - http://www.x-privat.org/gigamail.php Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: >>Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: >>[...] [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > one can listen to the right pronunciation on audio files or read > the IPA transcription. One can always record one's own speech and compare it with a native speaker's rendition. > On the contrary, I think one can improve a > lot if others listen to him/her attentively and make him/her > notice what is right and what is wrong, and how he/she should > change the sound, even better if they can explain where their > tongue exactly is when they utter a certain sound. Sure, but that's not terribly practical in most EFL classes. I do spend a bit of time on trying to teach my Taiwanese students that they have to close their lips to pronounce an [m], but most of them just pronounce words like "time" as [tain] instead of [taim]. > That's why I [...] > I don't think it's just an individual problem, as I noticed there > are common issues for people from the same country. Yes, it is a widespread phenomenon, and speakers of the same language usually have the same pronunciation problems, on the whole. > Italians, for instance, have a hard time uttering the English "th" > sounds, They are a problem for speakers of most other languages. Chinese and Japanese speakers hate to stick their tongues between their teeth: it's rude. > but also Rs and Ts are different, and all the vowels. In > general, we tend to say long vowels even when we are told the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > pronunciation rules and irregularities, here is why I insist on > this topic! This is one reason I think the international language should be Japanese or Spanish. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. >> On the contrary, I think one can improve a >> lot if others listen to him/her attentively and make him/her [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Sure, but that's not terribly practical in most EFL classes. I do That's understable. Probably, a one-to-one approach is better in this case." >> I don't think it's just an individual problem, as I noticed there >> are common issues for people from the same country. > >Yes, it is a widespread phenomenon, and speakers of the same language >usually have the same pronunciation problems, on the whole. BTW, here is a quote from it.cultura.linguistica.inglese about the differences between English and Italian sounds QUOTE | From: Chris <chris@nospam.net> | Newsgroups: it.cultura.linguistica.inglese | Subject: Re: Talking Posh | Date: Sat, 20 Nov 2004 00:37:06 -0000 | Message-ID: <MPG.1c08a209d4b9e9f79899f9@news.individual.de> <snip> This is the opposite to Italian, which (I find), is spoken from the front of the mouth with lots of lip and tongue movement. This is the main reason that we English speakers have such bad accents when we learn Italian. We don't pronounce enough! We have lazy lips & tongues. After a couple of days in Italy I suddenly "remember" to "over pronounce" everything and get less "blank looks" :-)) UNQUOTE And for Italians learning English, let me say, it's just as hard, the other way round though. We over pronounce! >> Italians, for instance, have a hard time uttering the English "th" >> sounds, > >They are a problem for speakers of most other languages. Chinese and >Japanese speakers hate to stick their tongues between their teeth: >it's rude. That's surprising! >> but also Rs and Ts are different, and all the vowels. In >> general, we tend to say long vowels even when we are told the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >This is one reason I think the international language should be >Japanese or Spanish. Perhaps Spanish, then, as it''s already greatly widespread. But I am fine with English :-) SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- X-Privat "FREE Usenet" - http://www.newsserver.it Enrico C wrote on 22 Nov 2004: [...] > BTW, here is a quote from it.cultura.linguistica.inglese about the > differences between English and Italian sounds [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > when we learn Italian. We don't pronounce enough! We have lazy > lips & tongues. This is a bit of nonsense. All my aunts and uncles spoke fluent native-speaker Italian and fluent native-speaker English, and they didn't have "lazy lips and tongues" in one language but energetic lips and tongues in the other. The way the sounds are produced in these two languages is different because the sounds are different. Chris is lamenting his own inability to hear and produce proper Italian and then projecting that inability onto all English speakers. I reject that overgeneralization. I have no trouble mimicking the sounds of French, German, Spanish, Italian, Japanese, and Chinese. That's not to say that my accents in these languages are perfect, but, with the exception of Chinese, they are not the accents of a man with lazy lips and tongue. > After a couple of days in Italy I suddenly > "remember" to "over pronounce" everything and get less "blank > looks" I wonder if he means that the look he gets when he speaks Italian are not as blank as they had been or that he gets fewer such looks. How can one trust the observations of someone who insists on writing ambiguous prose? > :-)) UNQUOTE > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Perhaps Spanish, then, as it''s already greatly widespread. > But I am fine with English :-) Me too. :-) SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. > Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: > > I think those kinds of things happen all the time to lots of > > learners in all languages [unless one has really good ears!], [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > One can always record one's own speech and compare it with a > native speaker's rendition. Whilst this undoubtedly helps students to hear the sounds they're actually making, what's missing is the feedback. In the final analysis, what matters is the phoneme that is perceived by the listener - or perhaps, more broadly, the word that is heard. The student cannot judge this for herself. > > On the contrary, I think one can improve a > > lot if others listen to him/her attentively and make him/her > > notice what is right and what is wrong, and how he/she should > > change the sound, even better if they can explain where their > > tongue exactly is when they utter a certain sound. I find that it is often sufficient to offer no help at all, but simply to indicate by facial expression when I'm unsure what the student is trying to say, thus providing the feedback I spoke of above. > Sure, but that's not terribly practical in most EFL classes. I > do spend a bit of time on trying to teach my Taiwanese students > that they have to close their lips to pronounce an [m], but > most of them just pronounce words like "time" as [tain] instead > of [taim]. Interesting. I would have thought that this would be easy to teach, given that the articulators (the lips) are visible, but your comments suggest otherwise. > > That's why I > [...] [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > language usually have the same pronunciation problems, on the > whole. Yes. I've noticed that all of my Hungarian students have difficulty with final consonant cluster + s, voiced or unvoiced. Granted, even native speakers can find a word like "sixths" difficult, but "hands" really shouldn't be, for students past the elementary level. I'm still working on how to counteract this. > > Italians, for instance, have a hard time uttering the English > > "th" sounds, > They are a problem for speakers of most other languages. > Chinese and Japanese speakers hate to stick their tongues > between their teeth: it's rude. But the two "th" sounds are not made by (most) native speakers by putting the tongue between the teeth. Rather, the tip of the tongue is placed against the bottom of the upper teeth. > > but also Rs and Ts are different, and all the vowels. In > > general, we tend to say long vowels even when we are told the > > English pronunciation is shorter! Italians, for instance, > > would say ship as sheep and notion as notio:n! But there's a big difference between these:- the difference between /I/ and /i:/ is very important in English, which has many minimal pairs involving these phonemes. The difference between "sh.t" and "sheet" is only the most celebrated of them. Learning to distinguish these two will save you much confusion. But "notion" will likely be understood perfectly well even if you pronounce it as three syllables (it's actually /'n@U S@n/ or /'noU S@n/). I probably wouldn't interrupt you to correct this error. > > If you add > > that "phonetic divide", so to speak, to the English complex [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > This is one reason I think the international language should be > Japanese or Spanish. Maybe, but if wishes were horses then beggars would ride... SignatureMark Barratt Budapest >> Enrico C wrote on 21 Nov 2004: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >listener - or perhaps, more broadly, the word that is heard. The >student cannot judge this for herself. That's exactly what I meant in the first place, thank you for putting this concept in clearer words! >> > On the contrary, I think one can improve a >> > lot if others listen to him/her attentively and make him/her [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >student is trying to say, thus providing the feedback I spoke of >above. True [true, I mean, in my personal experience]. >> Sure, but that's not terribly practical in most EFL classes. I >> do spend a bit of time on trying to teach my Taiwanese students [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >teach, given that the articulators (the lips) are visible, but >your comments suggest otherwise. With some effort, I succedeed in uttering a N-ish [rather than M-ish] sound even with close lips! Peraps that's what Taiwanese do [just guessing, of course]. >> > That's why I >> [...] [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >putting the tongue between the teeth. Rather, the tip of the >tongue is placed against the bottom of the upper teeth. Is that pron correct as well? >> > but also Rs and Ts are different, and all the vowels. In >> > general, we tend to say long vowels even when we are told the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >pronounce it as three syllables (it's actually /'n@U S@n/ or >/'noU S@n/). Agreed, but... >I probably wouldn't interrupt you to correct this >error. I would appreciate it if you did, anyway! :-) >> > If you add >> > that "phonetic divide", so to speak, to the English complex [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Maybe, but if wishes were horses then beggars would ride... What do you reckon, what variant of the English language is the international language nowadays? American English? British English? Some sort of mix? SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- X-Privat "FREE Usenet" - http://www.newsserver.it >Teachers tell students to practice reading. Students then run across >many words they've never heard pronounced. As they see the word, they >mangle the pronounciation. How important is it to first be familiar >with the pronounciation of a word before learning its meaning? As an EFL, I find that quite useful. Of course, I am also curious about the meaning of words and I look them up, or ask about them, when I can. Still, I think reading is a good exercise even if I don't know all the words in the passage. >Would a drill where a student hears a word and is asked to quickly >pick out the word in a list be helpful even though there is no meaning >associated with the word? Or would the student's time be better spent >practicing reading? IMHO, that greatly depends on your main goal at the moment, whether improve pronunciation or vocabulary. Natch, you can do both :) SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- GIGAMAIL By X-Privat - http://www.x-privat.org/gigamail.php >>Teachers tell students to practice reading. Students then run across >>many words they've never heard pronounced. As they see the word, they >>mangle the pronounciation. How important is it to first be familiar >>with the pronounciation of a word before learning its meaning? > >As an EFL, "learner" > I find that quite useful. >Of course, I am also curious about the meaning of words and I look them up, >or ask about them, when I can. >Still, I think reading is a good exercise even if I don't know all the >words in the passage. Let me explain with an example. Let's say I have to read aloud this sentence: IT is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune must be in want of a wife. and let's say, for the sake of discussion, I *don't* have any clue of what "wife" means, and that (having recently seen the film "The Exhorcist") I am only familiar with another meaning of the word "possession", but I don't get the meaning actually used here. Now, would it be pointless reading the sentence and trying to figure out the pron, even of the words I don't know (yet)? I don't think so. In fact, the "i" in "wife" reads just like the "i" in "life"and "wine". So, I recognize the pattern and try an educated guess. I reckon that's a good exercise. And an alike exercise can be made for with the word "possession", even if I happened to think that Jane Austen write about evil presences and not about money! =) SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- X-Privat "FREE Usenet" - http://www.newsserver.it >Teachers tell students to practice reading. Students then run across >many words they've never heard pronounced. As they see the word, they [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >pick out the word in a list be helpful even though there is no meaning >associated with the word? Probably not, because we learn words in conjunction with their meaning, and a word which we recognise but don't attach meaning to is as much use as a bit of car engine when you don't know which car it comes out of. (Not that it doesn't happen - students often say "oo, I know that word, I just can't remember what it means", and I've often had the same experience in languages I've learnt.) Having said that, you could try teaching pron before meaning, but only if the meaning was supplied pretty soon afterwards. Students get very twitchy if they don't have access to meanings of unfamiliar words. This is why teaching reading for gist can be tricky, and it segues into the research on classroom use of handheld electronic dictionaries I'm currently undertaking. But the meaning/pronunciation issue is important, and again, 'learning' a word *should* meaning learning to say it (though in many Educational Cultures this isn't necessarily so). This came home to me teaching courses for Medical Students recently. I don't have a medical background, and I came across words like 'Erythematous' in texts. Though I'm a native speaker, I not only didn't have a clue what this meant, I didn't know how to pronounce it, in particular where the stress should go. So part of my teaching prep involved checking this out. One way round this is having students read passages aloud in class. This is frowned on in Teacher Training orthodoxy, but definitely picks up the words students can't pronounce. Cheers DC > One way round this is having students read passages aloud in > class. This is frowned on in Teacher Training orthodoxy, but > definitely picks up the words students can't pronounce. Could you expand on this please? I have a student who insists upon reading aloud everything that I give her. The only objection that I have to this is that it wastes time. I wonder what other objections there might be. That she may end up being unable to read silently? That would seem far-fetched. I usually correct mispronunciation of unknown words before giving the meaning, as it seems most natural, and I'm not convinced that reversing this order makes any difference (although my senior CELTA tutor made a big thing of it). Teaching the pronunciation *without* teaching the meaning would just be silly, and it would be a very odd student who didn't interrupt to say "Yes, but what does it mean?". That last assumes, of course, that you've managed to stop them saying "What means it?" or "What is the meaning?", locutions which, for some reason, even advanced students regularly produce. SignatureMark Barratt Budapest >> One way round this is having students read passages aloud in >> class. This is frowned on in Teacher Training orthodoxy, but [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >objections there might be. That she may end up being unable to >read silently? That would seem far-fetched. Interesting. In fact if that's in a one-to-one context it's probably as useful (or more) for her to read aloud as to read silently. The objection is usually to round-class reading aloud in the group classroom. But I wonder if she's deliberately looking at changing the pace of your lessons, maybe because she's nervous about activities she finds more of a challenge? Reading aloud in class is not something you'll find recommended in TT literature, but I think it's got merit. I use reading aloud as a sort of focus when I want to look at part of a passage, and it allows ad hoc phonology practice (which I think is better than dedicated sessions) both at word and sentence level. But:- - it's not very communicative - it's not encouraging students to think about language as a means of getting their ideas across to other people. - it can be mechanical. You can tell when students are making the sounds but not connecting them with the meaning of the passage. - it's got great potential for a cop-out. I never do more than a few hundred words or a couple of paragraphs, but a badly-prepped teacher could happily waste hours of students' time with it. - it puts stress on the student reading. This is by no means always a bad thing. In fact I'm teaching a speaking module at the moment where students will be examined by reading a passage. Next week I'm going to experiment with getting them to read some poems aloud, but this won't be as part of a text analysis, and is about rhythm and stress. I look forward to some queries about 'runcible spoon'. >I usually correct mispronunciation of unknown words before giving >the meaning, as it seems most natural, and I'm not convinced that >reversing this order makes any difference (although my senior >CELTA tutor made a big thing of it). No, I'm not sure what your tutor had in mind. I suppose you could think of an exchange like:- st:- *What means FLObert? t:- No, that's floBERT. st:- *Yes, but what means FLObert? t: floBERT. st: floBERT t: Good. It's a sort of skrivitz. In other words you're delaying gratification; what the student wants is the word's meaning; you're not giving him/her that meaning until he's shown (s)he can say it properly, thereby satisfying yourself that (s)he has been exposed to a correct model of pron. Not that this means either meaning or pron have been learnt yet. >Teaching the pronunciation *without* teaching the meaning would >just be silly, and it would be a very odd student who didn't >interrupt to say "Yes, but what does it mean?". Absolutely. But take recent classes I've done on British Constitution and Government (please - ba-bom). We talked about Gordon Brown being 'Chancellor of the Exchequer' and I said to the students "That's the same as a 'Finance Minister'; please *don't* look up the words 'chancellor' and 'exchequer'; they don't matter". I'm trying to stop the hell for leather dive to Electronic Dictionaries; on the other hand I'd quite like them to be able to pronounce 'Chancellor of the Exchequer' and can well imagine practicing it. >That last >assumes, of course, that you've managed to stop them saying "What >means it?" or "What is the meaning?", locutions which, for some >reason, even advanced students regularly produce. Oh indeed it's one of those really sticky ones , and it's the fastest way to identify L2 posters from their title lines. DC [...] > In fact I'm teaching a speaking module at the moment where > students will be examined by reading a passage. Next week I'm > going to experiment with getting them to read some poems aloud, > but this won't be as part of a text analysis, and is about > rhythm and stress. I look forward to some queries about > 'runcible spoon'. Hunting of the snark? <googles> No, Lear's "The Owl and the Pussycat". Well, at least that mostly consists of real words. You might try Lewis Carrol's epic as an encore, if anyone gets too cocky. > > I usually correct mispronunciation of unknown words before > > giving the meaning, as it seems most natural, and I'm not > > convinced that reversing this order makes any difference > > (although my senior CELTA tutor made a big thing of it). > > No, I'm not sure what your tutor had in mind... "Always start with the meaning", he said. That's fine if you're writing the word up on the board as pre-taught vocab. You don't have to say it before you define it. Come to think of it, though, that way you're starting with the spelling, aren't you? > ...I suppose you > could think of an exchange like:- [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > st: floBERT > t: Good. It's a sort of skrivitz. But notice that the teacher uses "it". Consider instead: st:- "What means FLObert?" t:- "floBERT means..." In any case, I wasn't thinking of a direct question, but rather the situation where a student struggles with the pronunciation of a word, thereby indicating that she doesn't know it: st (reading aloud):- "They dined on mince and slices of k... qu... kinky..." t: "Quince. It's a fruit". [...] > Absolutely. But take recent classes I've done on British > Constitution and Government (please - ba-bom). We talked about [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to be able to pronounce 'Chancellor of the Exchequer' and can > well imagine practicing it. I'd be interested to read your conclusions about electronic dictionaries when you have some. I think some of them may be very good, as bilingual dictionaries go, although it's certainly disheartening to face a classful of Japanese students equipped with them on their first trip to the UK. Their dependency on the things can be mind-boggling. I remember organising a running dictation with such a class. Can you conceive of any possible use for a dictionary in a running dictation? I still had to confiscate three of them. SignatureMark Barratt Budapest >[...] >> In fact I'm teaching a speaking module at the moment where [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Hunting of the snark? <googles> No, Lear's "The Owl and the >Pussycat". Those are the beasts in question. I'll be interested to see how the punters react to Lear's nonce words (what an unfortunate term that is). I was also thinking about Tarrantella by Belloc and that 'When I am old I shall wear purple' one. Jabberwocky could be fun - I don't really know the Snark well enough though. >"Always start with the meaning", he said. That's fine if you're >writing the word up on the board as pre-taught vocab. You don't >have to say it before you define it. Come to think of it, though, >that way you're starting with the spelling, aren't you? Oh right. I got it the wrong way round. I'm sure he had good reasons, though having thought through a justification for the opposite approach, I can't think of them OTTOMH. >But notice that the teacher uses "it". Consider instead: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >qu... kinky..." >t: "Quince. It's a fruit". And that, as you say, is the natural reaction. It's the pron that's the immediate source of concern, and that's what most teachers would deal with. In fact, there's a case for:- t: "Quince. I'll explain what it means when we've finished reading." Here, you just want them to accept that a quince is a type of fruit that they a) have never heard of b) very probably don't eat in their home culture anyway, and so have never encountered, and get on with the reading without going off at a tangent and losing momentum. Ever since I used an exercise in one of Barbara Ellis's books, that hinged on knowing what a gooseberry was, with a group from Africa and the Middle East, I've thought of this as 'the gooseberry effect': it's not a question of not knowing what the thing is in *in your language*, it's a question of not knowing *what the thing is*. (Just so happens both our examples are fruit - but it could be anything culturallly-specific.) It goes the other way too, with Iranian students once telling me all about a special spice, Sumac, which is important at the Iranian new year. In the end they brought me in a sample. I'm still not sure what it was (it looked like coarse-ground red pepper, but had a really nice lemony sweet and sour taste) or if there's an English word for it. >I'd be interested to read your conclusions about electronic >dictionaries when you have some. I'll be looking for comments and posting conclusions in the next few months, and possibly putting up an online questionnaire. >I remember organising a running >dictation with such a class. Can you conceive of any possible use >for a dictionary in a running dictation? Putting them on the floor to trip up the other team? But otherwise... nooo! Off for a jolly Sunday recertificating... DC > > [...] > >> [DC] I look forward to some queries about 'runcible spoon'. > >Hunting of the snark? <googles> No, Lear's "The Owl and the > > Pussycat". [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > purple' one. Jabberwocky could be fun - I don't really know > the Snark well enough though. In fact, I was thinking of "Jabberwocky" (for some reason I've always confused the two) which consists almost entirely of nonce words. "The Hunting of the Snark", which is nonsense of a different (and funnier) sort, is probably too long to be used in its entirety in one lesson. Both are in the public domain, of course: <http://waxdog.com/jabberwocky/poem.html> <http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext91/snark12h.htm> > > "Always start with the meaning", he [my senior CELTA tutor] > > said. That's fine if > > you're writing the word up on the board as pre-taught vocab. > > You don't have to say it before you define it. Come to think > > of it, though, that way you're starting with the spelling, > > aren't you? > Oh right. I got it the wrong way round. I'm sure he had good > reasons, though having thought through a justification for the > opposite approach, I can't think of them OTTOMH. I remember now. He was speaking of eliciting vocabulary, perhaps with visuals - something I haven't tried in 1/1, and which I sometimes found less than useful in classrooms. > [...] It goes the other way too, > with Iranian students once telling me all about a special [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > really nice lemony sweet and sour taste) or if there's an > English word for it. It looks like the English word is "sumac": <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumac> [...] > Off for a jolly Sunday recertificating... Should have done it right the first time... SignatureMark Barratt Budapest >In fact, I was thinking of "Jabberwocky" (for some reason I've >always confused the two) Me too. But then they are both about hunts for mythical beasts. I checked a Snark site before my last posting - in fact I'm not sure I've ever read it. >Both are in the public domain, of >course: Interesting how many naff advertising sites are based round public domain poetry, as I found looking for Tarantella - 'get your culture, Brittney screensaver and free-access online casino here.' Somebody's worked out a business model there... >I remember now. He was speaking of eliciting vocabulary, perhaps >with visuals - something I haven't tried in 1/1, and which I >sometimes found less than useful in classrooms. Over the years I've grown less and less comfortable with the idea of eliciting, which implies that the students actually already know the language item in question; maybe somebody else taught it to them; or if you could only access their automatic and inherent English native-speaker brain circuits... I think it can lead to the complacent idea amongst newly qualified teachers (it did for me) that they're there to reactivate someone else's input. These days my motto is: "when all else fails, try teaching them something". >> [...] It goes the other way too, >> with Iranian students once telling me all about a special [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >It looks like the English word is "sumac": ><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumac> Thanks for that, a mystery partly solved. Even now it doesn't always cross my mind how often the web can do that kind of thing. Apparently sumac is nice on kebabs. It's also one of the seven things which begin with 's' in Farsi that you need to have on Iranian New Year. >[...] >> Off for a jolly Sunday recertificating... > >Should have done it right the first time... You have to redo it every so often, a bit like airline pilots. You also get two shots; if I fail this one I'll be rerecertificating. DC O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay! > Interesting how many naff advertising sites are based round > public domain poetry, as I found looking for Tarantella - 'get > your culture, Brittney screensaver and free-access online > casino here.' Somebody's worked out a business model there... OK, I ignored your reference to "Tarantella" the first time, but this time I went and found out what it is. That makes the second thing that I've read by Hilaire Belloc in my life, as far as I recall. The first was "Matilda (who told lies and was burnt to death)" which, by coincidence, I read this morning in OUP's "Making Headway Literature Advanced" booklet, which I'm wondering if I might use with a student. I've never been much taken with poetry, I'm afraid, unless it's humorous, and "Tarantella" was no exception. Wikipedia says that Belloc was "an ardent proponent of orthodox Catholicism" and "notoriously and vocally anti-Semitic", neither of which encourage me to want to read more of his works. Incidentally, since he died in 1953, I'm not sure that his work actually *is* technically in the public domain. I think the current law gives copyright protection until 60 years after the author's death. I see that Project Gutenberg have several works by him, though, and they say that the ones I glanced at are not copyrighted. Evidently some other factor comes into play - perhaps he has no heirs. SignatureMark Barratt Budapest >> Interesting how many naff advertising sites are based round >> public domain poetry, as I found looking for Tarantella - 'get [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I've never been much taken with poetry, I'm afraid, unless it's >humorous, and "Tarantella" was no exception. It's a family favourite because my sister is called Miranda, but apparently the Miranda in the poem was probably a bloke - the Duke Thereof. It's the rhythm of the poem I'm interested in for use in class; a tarrentella is a sort of flamencoesque dance... >Wikipedia says that Belloc was "an ardent proponent of orthodox >Catholicism" and "notoriously and vocally anti-Semitic", neither >of which encourage me to want to read more of his works. Loving this poem, and an amazing little book I picked up in a 2nd hand shop - 'the Path to Rome' - in which Belloc drinks and bullies his way across Europe on a very laddish pilgimage, led me to read AN Wilson's biog of the man. And yes, Belloc was a complete sh.t. >Incidentally, since he died in 1953, I'm not sure that his work >actually *is* technically in the public domain. I think the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >copyrighted. Evidently some other factor comes into play - >perhaps he has no heirs. Well, I found Jenny Joseph's 'Warning' and she's still with us. I also found a poetry site that basically said "we *think* this poem is public domain, but don't blame us if you download it and get sued" which I thought was very rich indeed. DC, sneezing with fleas in the High Pyrenees >And that, as you say, is the natural reaction. It's the pron that's >the immediate source of concern, and that's what most teachers would [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >home culture anyway, and so have never encountered, and get on with >the reading without going off at a tangent and losing momentum. Ever You made me wonder what on earth a quince is! M-W online says: " the fruit of a central Asian tree (Cydonia oblonga) of the rose family that resembles a hard-fleshed yellow apple and is used especially in preserves " >since I used an exercise in one of Barbara Ellis's books, that hinged >on knowing what a gooseberry was, with a group from Africa and the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >red pepper, but had a really nice lemony sweet and sour taste) or if >there's an English word for it. That happens a lot with all kinds of food. You can't just translate marmite or lemon curd, you have to taste 'em :-) SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- GIGAMAIL By X-Privat - http://www.x-privat.org/gigamail.php >>And that, as you say, is the natural reaction. It's the pron that's >>the immediate source of concern, and that's what most teachers would [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >You made me wonder what on earth a quince is! Click this link, and then 'listen again', turn on your speakers and you can hear all about it! http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/factual/foodprogramme_20040926.shtml The reason that it's come up is that The Owl and the Pussycat in Edward Lear's much-loved poem 'dine upon mince and slices of quince' - http://www.nonsenselit.org/Lear/ns/pussy.html But I bet quinces were at some time grown in Italy and made into preserves, maybe in Trentino. When I was working there last year I got a real taste for Lunelli's Bear Root Sauce (http://www.lunelli.it/) - not something remotely familiar to a Brit! DC >But I bet quinces were at some time grown in Italy and made into >preserves, maybe in Trentino. When I was working there last year I >got a real taste for Lunelli's Bear Root Sauce >(http://www.lunelli.it/) - not something remotely familiar to a Brit! > >DC What a fool I am! Of course I knew the thing! And I ate lots of it, precisely quince jam, a very solid jam sold in slices, packed in small rectangular paper wrappings. SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- X-Privat "FREE Usenet" - http://www.newsserver.it >>But I bet quinces were at some time grown in Italy and made into >>preserves, maybe in Trentino. When I was working there last year I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >precisely quince jam, a very solid jam sold in slices, packed in small >rectangular paper wrappings. Am I right that was in the North, or is it common all over Italy? I suspect the average Brit in the street wouldn't know a quince from a hole in the road. I only really know about them because we had a bush in the garden when I was a kid. DC >>>But I bet quinces were at some time grown in Italy and made into >>>preserves, maybe in Trentino. When I was working there last year I [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Am I right that was in the North, or is it common all over Italy? Nope! It's traditional all over the country, though not a very common food nowadays. Here is a web site about traditional quince jam in Sicily. http://www.prodottitipici.com/testo.asp?t=1295 >I suspect the average Brit in the street wouldn't know a quince from a >hole in the road. I only really know about them because we had a bush >in the garden when I was a kid. SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- FREENET By X-Privat - http://www.x-privat.org/infofreenet.php Thank you for your thoughts about pronounciation before meaning. I'm still reading them carefully as I get the chance with my limited internet access (no phone at home). >Thank you for your thoughts about pronounciation before meaning. I'm >still reading them carefully as I get the chance with my limited >internet access (no phone at home). Shouldn't that be "pronunciation before meaning"? SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- FREENET By X-Privat - http://www.x-privat.org/infofreenet.php > Could you expand on this please? I have a student who insists > upon reading aloud everything that I give her. The only objection > that I have to this is that it wastes time. I wonder what other > objections there might be. That she may end up being unable to > read silently? That would seem far-fetched. I am reading English in a way, that I pronounce every word in my head - so I get along with English-reading very slow. (I mean here: reading 'not aloud'). This might be the cause for the problem of the girl, that she does this the same way. If I meet a hard word like 'psichologically' or the kind, I used to stop and struggle through. I should just try to do it without this thing, just like in Hungarian and without pronouncing - only understanding. Whilest I have no problems with speaking (I don't think in Hungarian and then translate the words, but it comes up instantly in English) I do have this thing with reading - this might be because Hungarian has a phonetic pronunciation (perfectly easy for us anyway). Andrea > > Could you expand on this please? I have a student who insists > > upon reading aloud everything that I give her. The only [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > my head - so I get along with English-reading very slow. (I > mean here: reading 'not aloud'). Is this slow? I think it's what I do most of the time, and I don't read slowly. > This might be the cause for > the problem of the girl, that she does this the same way. No, I don't think my student has any difficulty reading silently - it's me who has the problem with it. Her pronunciation is very good, and I think the lesson time could be better used working on her grammar and vocabulary. To be fair, she *is* starting to pronounce all of those final 's's. As I wrote in another post, this seems to be a common fault with Hungarian students. > If I > meet a hard word like 'psichologically' or the kind, I used to > stop and struggle through. I should just try to do it without > this thing, just like in Hungarian and without pronouncing - > only understanding. I'm not sure that I agree. Perhaps other teachers would like to comment. > Whilest I have no problems with speaking (I > don't think in Hungarian and then translate the words, but it > comes up instantly in English) I do have this thing with > reading - this might be because Hungarian has a phonetic > pronunciation (perfectly easy for us anyway). Andrea I don't think you should worry about how quickly you read. You will get faster with practice, because your ability to predict the word that is coming next will improve. Read more. It doesn't matter what you read, so find things that interest you. Have a look at Project Gutenberg, which has lots and lots of good English literature for free: <http://promo.net/pg/> If you don't know what to choose, post here telling us what sorts of things you're interested in, and we can make some suggestions. SignatureMark Barratt Budapest www.geocities.com/nyelvmark > Have a > look at Project Gutenberg, which has lots and lots of good > English literature for free: > <http://promo.net/pg/> I'm informed by a Project Gutenberg volunteer that the above address is obsolote. I quote: "Please note that the current most correct URL for Project Gutenberg is http://www.gutenberg.org/ Because of some problems with write permissions, the promo.net pages have not yet been deleted, and you will find that they are lacking many of the improvements that have been made in the past year, and have a fair amount of out-of-date information. Also, something else you can see quite clearly in the new online catalog is that there is a growing number of texts in languages other than English. (A few hundred each in French and German, many of which cannot yet be found anywhere else online; also quite a decent sampling in Finnish, Italian, Spanish, Chinese, Dutch etc. Then there are languages like Serbian, of which we only have a couple now, but there is a group which plans on regularly contributing more.)" I checked, by the way, - there's nothing yet in Hungarian. SignatureMark Barratt Budapest >One way round this is having students read passages aloud in class. >This is frowned on in Teacher Training orthodoxy, Why is that? SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- X-Privat "FREE Usenet" - http://www.newsserver.it >>One way round this is having students read passages aloud in class. >>This is frowned on in Teacher Training orthodoxy, > >Why is that? It's one of those 'givens', like not allowing students to translate into their own language, that is so ingrained in EFL teaching culture that sometimes you need to stand back and say "hang on; why?" But have a look at my reply to Mark for more detail. Cheers DC >>>One way round this is having students read passages aloud in class. >>>This is frowned on in Teacher Training orthodoxy, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >that sometimes you need to stand back and say "hang on; why?" But >have a look at my reply to Mark for more detail. Yes, I saw it later :) SignatureEnrico C /testing Pimmy/ Reply to: enrico /dot/ c /at\ people \dot\ it -- X-Privat "FREE Usenet" - http://www.newsserver.it |
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