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Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / April 2005STOP LINGUISTIC RACISM. STOP RACISM.
Wherever human exists, language exists and there are no "primitive" languages, because ALL LANGUAGES ARE EQUALLY COMPLEX AND EQUALLY CAPABLE OF EXPRESSING ANY IDEA IN THE UNIVERSE. STOP LINGUISTIC RACISM (like any other form of racism). No language is better! Is an English speaker better than a Chinese speaker? Please, let's respect each other! Maria Galian. REZA MODIRROUSTA wrote on 25 Apr 2005: > Wherever human exists, language exists and there are no > "primitive" languages, because ALL LANGUAGES ARE EQUALLY COMPLEX [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > speaker? Please, let's respect each other! > Maria Galian. misc.religion.sermon, alt.religion.sermon, misc.human.rights.rant, and alt.human.rights.rant probably don't exist yet, but you'd be the perfect person to introduce them. You are, of course, mistaken when you say "ALL LANGUAGES ARE EQUALLY COMPLEX". Some languages are significantly more complex in some ways than other languages, which is evidenced by the fact that native speakers of unrelated languages have greater difficulty learning them. They may be more complex orthographically or phonetically or grammatically, but all languages are not absolutely equal in complexity. When you assert "AND EQUALLY CAPABLE OF EXPRESSING ANY IDEA IN THE UNIVERSE", you commit the pathetic fallacy by atrtributing to languages the ability to express ideas. Only people express ideas, whether they use a natural human language or the "language" of music or painting or sculpture, for example. And while it is true that all natural human languages can eventually be made to express any idea that humans can concoct, it is not at all true that they all can at the moment. The expression of ideas is not solely a function of the grammar of a language. The language also has to have the necessary vocabulary, and not all languages are currently equally endowed with the same vocabulary. In addition, not all languages can express the same ideas in exactly the same way. Languages are tied to cultures, not to Platonic forms in the ether, so the way they express the same idea will vary according to culture. And some languages are easier to use than others. Welsh, for example, has extraodinarily long words and so would be a poor choice for printers. English spelling is not phonetic, so one cannot figure out how to pronounce many of its words, unlike Spanish spelling, which is phonetic. Many Bantu languages use clicks that can be learned only before the age of 12 (true for most people) and so would make them less than desirable to use as the international language. Many languages are not written and so would be useless for international communication in the sciences. And just to clue you in about the word "racism", language and "race" are purely coincidental. There is no such thing as "linguistic racism". That is a non sequitur. Maybe you'd better stop, think, and learn a bit before you go around shouting about things you have no knowledge or understanding of. Your obnoxious moralism is as unwelcome here as it will be anywhere else fanatics and fanaticism are unwelcome. If you feel that you are being discriminated against because of your language, there are rational ways to express your displeasure. Ranting and raving as you have done is not one of them.  SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. "You've got to get over this idea that there's a rule for everything." Professor John Lawler, U. Michigan Apart from being a linguist ignorant (ie: you lack the necessary knowledge or comprehension of linguistics), you are also disrespectful. The major aim of linguistic theory is TO DISCOVER THE LAWS OF HUMAN LANGUAGE, whose principles characterize all human languages. What I stated: "all languages are equally complex and equally capable of expressing any idea in the universe" has already been stated before by the greatest linguists in the world such as Noam Chomsky, Victoria Fromkin or Robert Rodman, by the way, sorry, who are you? a relative of Chomsky, perhaps?. However, I am sure you have never heard them before (because of your obvious ignorance). Please, have a look at the definition of "complex". Throughout the ages, in the past (surely you are still there) philosophers and linguists had been divided on the question of whether there are universal properties that hold for all human languages and are unique to them. Most modern linguists (you are not obviously one of them) are on the side of the "universalists", finding common, universal properties in the grammar of all languages. Such properties may be said to constitute a "universal" grammar of human language. Thank-you for all your comments. I needed them to find out whether people are still in the dark ages or have become more evolved. I recommend "An Introduction to Language" by Fromkin and Rodman. It may improve your lack of uderstanding. Thanks, thanks and thanks. Maria Galian. > REZA MODIRROUSTA wrote on 25 Apr 2005: > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > "You've got to get over this idea that there's a rule for > everything." Professor John Lawler, U. Michigan REZA MODIRROUSTA wrote on 26 Apr 2005: > Apart from being a linguist ignorant (ie: you lack the necessary > knowledge or comprehension of linguistics), Are you a linguist, or is it just that you have just now finished Fromkin and Rodman's introductory text? > you are also disrespectful. You cut me to the quick. I did not mean to be disrespectful. I did, however, mean to express my utter contempt for your politico- religious moralism. > The major aim of linguistic theory is TO DISCOVER > THE LAWS OF HUMAN LANGUAGE, whose principles characterize all > human languages. You must be talking about Greenberg's Universals of Language. The last time I looked, there were about 102. Are there more now? I've never heard of "the laws of human languages". When did they start teaching them, and where? > What I stated: "all languages are equally complex > and equally capable of expressing any idea in the universe" has > already been stated before by the greatest linguists in the world > such as Noam Chomsky, Victoria Fromkin or Robert Rodman, by the > way, sorry, who are you? a relative of Chomsky, perhaps?. I don't pretend to know Chomsky. My older son does, but not through any introduction by me. Does this change anything? Are you a relative of his? Should I call you something special? > However, I am sure you have never heard them before >(because of your obvious ignorance). > Please, have a look at the definition of "complex". I'll do that and tell you what it means if you can tell me what "equally" means outside the political context of "all languages are equally complex". Just because Chomsky said this doesn't make it true, you know. He said a lot of things he has since disavowed and that other linguists and neuroscientists have disproved. Chomsky is not Moses. > Throughout the ages, in the past (surely you are still > there) philosophers and linguists had been divided on the question [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > languages. Such properties may be said to constitute a "universal" > grammar of human language. You haven't read far enough in that chapter of Fromkin and Rodman, and you haven't spent the past 20 years looking for more universals to add to Greenberg's original 100. That's about all they've found, by the way. Linguistics has taken many turns since those days. It's all based on stuff I don't understand. > Thank-you for all your comments. I needed them to find > out whether people are still in the dark ages > or have become more evolved. Goodness! Don't use me as an indicator of anything or anyone but me. I am not "people", only a single individual with very strong opinions. > I recommend "An Introduction to Language" by Fromkin and Rodman. > It may improve your lack of uderstanding. Thank you for the recommendation, but I've read that a few times. I read it the first time back in 1980, and then again in 1981 and 1982. I've seen the latest editions, but they haven't changed enough to make me want to reread the book. But if you can recommend something on a slightly higher level that supports your claim that linguists are now looking for "the laws of human languages", I'd appreciate it. It sounds like a pretty vain search to me, and I'd like to see who is doing all this useless searching. > Thanks, thanks and thanks. Any time. You need a lot of help. Take what you can get and calm down. Librium or Vallium might be beneficial for someone like you, but thorazene or stalazene would be more appropriate, I think. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. "You've got to get over this idea that there's a rule for everything." Professor John Lawler, U. Michigan Good luck, Reza, or Maria. I wish you the best of luck in your search for people's opinions regarding universal grammar. I'm sure you will find many interesting people with the same interests all over the world who will eagerly debate the merits of universal grammar with you and any and all reservations they might have regarding it. Personally speaking, I have no opinion whatsoever regarding the matter. This is the first time in five years that I've heard of Greenberg. credoquaabsurdum wrote on 27 Apr 2005: > Good luck, Reza, Reza is her husband's name. It is a common name for men in Iran. The ex-Shah of Iran was named Reza Palavi, I believe. > or Maria. I wish you the best of luck in your > search for people's opinions regarding universal grammar. I'm sure [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > regarding the matter. This is the first time in five years that > I've heard of Greenberg. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. "You've got to get over this idea that there's a rule for everything." Professor John Lawler, U. Michigan Frankly, my dear... Do you concur? I believe different people have different culture, history and language, etc. How do they think determines their language, while their language shapes their thinking. So, we can not simply say ALL LANGUAGES ARE EQUALLY COMPLEX AND EQUALLY CAPABLE OF EXPRESSING ANY IDEA IN THE UNIVERSE. We can see this by learning two totally different languages. My native language is Chinese. I have learned English for many years. There are some different concepts in Chinese, but English speakers do not differentiate them, because English does not distinguish them, and vice versa. For example, it's hard for English speakers to NOTICE the three kinds of "uncle" in Chinese. There are many such examples. > Wherever human exists, language exists and there are no "primitive" > languages, because ALL LANGUAGES ARE EQUALLY COMPLEX AND EQUALLY CAPABLE OF [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Please, let's respect each other! > Maria Galian. You have been learning English for many years, Kevin. It's often hard for non-native speakers to NOTICE the differences between the present perfect simple and progressive. There are many such examples. In our local EFL newspaper here in Greece, we've seen a series of articles regarding the vast superiority of Greek to all other languages. Native speakers, strangers in a strange land, have been attempting to cautiously rein in the author of these articles. I'm sick to death of reading about such jingoist notions and I would very much prefer not to read about them here. I suspect that the aforementioned fanatic is just trying to twist our tail and check our reactions regarding this topic. > You have been learning English for many years, Kevin. It's often hard > for non-native speakers to NOTICE the differences between the present > perfect simple and progressive. There are many such examples. I agree with you here. I my last post, I remember I have an 'and vice versa' before my example. My intention is to cover your cases. I am sorry if my writing misled you. Kevin > In our local EFL newspaper here in Greece, we've seen a series of > articles regarding the vast superiority of Greek to all other [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > fanatic is just trying to twist our tail and check our reactions > regarding this topic. "credoquaabsurdum" < wrote in message > In our local EFL newspaper here in Greece, we've seen a series of > articles regarding the vast superiority of Greek to all other > languages. As a Greek-American, it's a typical Greek cultural idea both in Greece and the USA. And its not just with language. But you do see this with people of every group, everywhere. Sometimes it's pride, other times it to feel better than another group or maybe that's just human nature. Who knows.... "Eva" <evahatesspam@spam.bad> wrote > > "credoquaabsurdum" < wrote in message >> In our local EFL newspaper here in Greece, we've seen a series of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > better > than another group or maybe that's just human nature. Who knows.... I understand the French is one of those who are very proud of their language. Unfortunately, perhaps more English than the French migrate to America. Though the years, this end up making English the universal language of the Internet and international business. The population of China is very huge and it is a growing economic powerhouse. The language is increasingly used on the Internet and for international business. But English is already very well established. And Chinese being non-alphabetic is more difficult than many other languages to learn and write. It is also more difficult to type on the keyboard. The Japanese language shares much of these difficulties. Just my 2 cents on a lazy afternoon. John Hey Eva, I have never heard a single college graduate in the USA assert that their culture, language, literature and general national attitude outshines that of any other nature great and small. The closest thing I've seen to it was this one Missouri skinhead ex-con who had a tattoo on his back that showed the American flag with a flowing caption of, "We're the sh.t." Hardly an individual of a type once known as "hall-marked." On the other hand, I have been told by perfectly serious "educated" Greeks, that the ultimate truth of all questions concerning gender is that women are a hole and men are a protrusion, therefore, the proper place for woman is one of accepting servitude to a man's productive needs. Small wonder that Greece has one of the highest rates of human trafficking worldwide. I have been told by similar ignoramuses that the Parthenon predates the Pyramids, is larger than the Colosseum, and is twice as tall as the Great Wall of China. This from a nation without a single reference library in it that numbers even two million volumes strong. Other university-educated paragons of respectability here have drowned me in more anti-Jew bigotry than I could possibly imagine existed in one place. I mean, just how much misery can one people actually BE responsible for? The whole 9/11 thing was a Jew conspiracy. The tsunami was a US/Jew thing. African poverty is a Jew thing. The fall of the USSR was a Jew thing. Genocide in Sudan, blame the Jews. To cap it off, practically no one here has ever actually MET a Jew. They left that out of the movie, didn't they? --But you do see this with people of every group, everywhere. Do you really? To this extent? To the point where any reference to any kind of objectivity whatsoever becomes obscured by the mists of appalling ignorance? Your easy-going moral relativism might become something entirely different were you ever actually faced with a choice to live abroad long-term and confront the issues that you so glibly dismiss as universally applicable for all people everywhere. And yeah, Eva, what makes you think I'm NOT a Greek-American living in Greece? The fact that you would automatically assume that I couldn't be because I can string three English sentences together and know a gerund from a participle is rather revealing. "credoquaabsurdum" > wrote in message > And yeah, Eva, what makes you think I'm NOT a Greek-American living in > Greece? The fact that you would automatically assume that I couldn't be > because I can string three English sentences together and know a gerund > from a participle is rather revealing. Where in my post did I say or even imply you were or weren't a Greek-American? Well, Eva, as a 100% full-blooded Greek male who grew up, went to school, college and grad school in the States and now lives in Athens and counts his days, I can honestly tell you that I have never believed that the sun only rises and sets on Greece, have never cruised up and down Syngrou Avenue in Athens looking for a tranny, have never considered a pimp to be the height of sartorial elegance, have never gone and found myself an enslaved, imported teenage whore in a brothel to feel young and frisky and "fresco" again, and never, but never, beat my wife to within an inch of her life, all things that quite a lot of Greek men have done or do on a regular basis here. Throwaway leveling ideas in the name of some kind of cheap humanism aside, we live in a world of difference. We make choices based on values in that world. Part of those choices is not accepting apologist statements for crass, brutish ignorance and a national code of ethical standards based in unconscious part or full on the morality of cockroaches. --Who knows.... (according to you). In Greek, FYI, it is "poios kserei;" I KNOW the many stories that Greek-Americans living in the States inherit regarding what really goes on here, what Ye Auld Country is really like, the home of all that is good and great in Hellenism. I believed half of them until I got here and learned better. Don't believe me, Eva? Come over to Athens, minus the careful husbandry of whatever family you have in Greece, and I will show you things as yet unimagined in your philosophy of "we're all the same." Come here and "live your myth," Eva, as the current national tourist campaign proclaims. Well, Eva, as a 100% full-blooded Greek male who grew up, went to school, college and grad school in the States and now lives in Athens and counts his days, I can honestly tell you that I have never believed that the sun only rises and sets on Greece, have never cruised up and down Syngrou Avenue in Athens looking for a tranny, have never considered a pimp to be the height of sartorial elegance, have never gone and found myself an enslaved, imported teenage whore in a brothel to feel young and frisky and "fresco" again, and never, but never, beat my wife to within an inch of her life, all things that quite a lot of Greek men have done or do on a regular basis here. > As a Greek-American, it's a typical Greek cultural idea both in Greece and > the USA. And its not just with language. But you do see this with people of > every group, everywhere. Sometimes it's pride, other times it to feel better > than another group or maybe that's just human nature. Who knows.... Throwaway leveling ideas in the name of some kind of cheap humanism aside, we live in a world of difference. We make choices based on values in that world. Part of those choices is not accepting apologist statements for an accepted code of ethical standards based in unconscious part or full on the morality of cockroaches. I KNOW the many stories that Greek-Americans living in the States inherit regarding what really goes on here, what Ye Auld Country is really like, the home of all that is good and great in Hellenism. I believed half of them until I got here and learned better. Don't believe me, Eva? Come over to Athens, minus the careful husbandry of whatever family you have in Greece, and I will show you things as yet unimagined in your philosophy of "we're all the same." Come here and "live your myth," Eva, as the current national tourist campaign proclaims. Trust me, it's a doozy of a myth. YOU ARE RIGHT, I AM TRYING TO FIND OUT PEOPLE'S OPINIONS ON UNIVERSAL GRAMMAR THEORIES. > You have been learning English for many years, Kevin. It's often hard > for non-native speakers to NOTICE the differences between the present [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > fanatic is just trying to twist our tail and check our reactions > regarding this topic. |
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