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Discussion Groups / ESL Teaching / May 2005Apocalypse
My comments are promoted by the heading "Apocalypse Then" in the BBC Homepage of a feature article on the history of the Vietnam War 30 years on. According to my Collins Cobuild dictionary, "The apocalypse is the total destruction and end of the world". And I remember "Apocalypse Now" is an old movie about Americans fighting the Vietnam War. My question is why is this movie called "Apocalypse Now" even taking into account the tendency for movie makers to give catchy titles to attract viewership ? The Vietnam war was of course very horrific and deadly for soldiers, fighters and civilians on both side. But it was not really the total destruction and end of the world, which is much bigger than just Indochina and America. John John, you're taking the word a little too literally. Vietnam really did seem like the end of the world (and it was the end of many lives). So "Apocalypse Now" was a fitting title for the film. It's a great film, too. Check it out sometime. > John, you're taking the word a little too literally. Vietnam really > did seem like the end of the world (and it was the end of many lives). > So "Apocalypse Now" was a fitting title for the film. It's a great > film, too. Check it out sometime. Not really. I am not taking the word 'a little too literally". I don't know where you are from. In selecting the title, were the movie makers so narrow in their outlook to think that America was the world ? I am sure they were aware that non-Americans were going to see the movie. Well, perhaps they did not care. John >>John, you're taking the word a little too literally. Vietnam really >>did seem like the end of the world (and it was the end of many lives). [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > they were aware that non-Americans were going to see the movie. Well, > perhaps they did not care. The word "apocalypse" not only means the complete destruction of the whole world, it can also be used to describe devastating destruction that falls short of this. It also carries connotations of the struggle between good and evil. In some senses, it could be argued that the rule of kurtz over the Montagnard tribe he dominates parallels the rule of the Anti-Christ, a major them in the Book of revelation of St. John, also known as the Apocalypse - indeed this is where the word comes from originally. The final holocaust as the village is destroyed by firebombing B52s resembles nothing more than an apocalyptic vision of tha destruction of the world, all in the context of a vision of the futility and insanity of war. John ford Coppola quite deliberately chose the title to emphasise the destruction, the struggle between "good" and "evil" where "good" uses the same methods as "evil" and a whole series of other themes that can be found in the Book of Revelation (and in teh book on which the film is loosely based, Joseph Conrad's "The Heart of Darkness", which in apointed reference can be fleetingly seen as Kurtz's bedside reading). In addition, artists are allowed considerable poetic license in their use of images. And all in all, I believe that the film "Apocalypse Now" is one of the most powerful artistic statements I've ever-experienced. I still find the imagery and the soundtrack electrifying and ovedrwhelming even on the small screen. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan What manner of English teacher would go on and on and on about the meaning of the word "apocalypse" without looking it up? Why that particular, utterly foreign, word was chosen as the title of the last book of the New Testament instead of something else might have been important to the structure of the general discussion here. The much more mundane "Revelations" is the other name of that book. Did you think they might have something in common? Oh no...just spin out the bull and go with the flow. "Apocalypse," in its root form, is a Greek loanword that means discovery or, duh, revelation. It has come to mean the same as the ending of the world only through its association with Christianity. I am sure Coppola or one of the umpteen people he had working for him spent the three minutes necessary to look it up in the days of paper references (not the fifteen seconds of today) and to think about it (depends on the quality of the mind involved) before posting it up. "...carries connotations of the struggle of good and evil..." "...parallels the rule of the Antichhrist..." "...final holocaust..." "...quite deliberately chose the title to emphasise the destruction..." "...apocalyptic vision..." (oxymoron) The horror...the horror... credoquaabsurdum wrote on 09 May 2005: > What manner of English teacher would go on and on and on about the > meaning of the word "apocalypse" without looking it up? Why that [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > The horror...the horror... Why do you snip everything you're responding to? It's very inconvenient to have to go back to the original post to see what it is you're talking about and whether what you have to say is, in fact, a reasonable response to the OP's question or statement.  SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. I snip everything in my posts as a matter of throwaway habit. You mentioned that point in another thread. Let's rectify that now with an explanation. John C's question (the original poster) was prompted by the fact that he was working out of a learner's dictionary to find out what "Apocalypse" meant. Moreover, he was wondering if, by using the expression, the creators of the film were being narrowminded. He was probably right. However, in a quite silly series of pseudo-critical maneuvers based on a jackanape's understanding of a very simple word, reader of this thread were expected to believe that the extension of his powers of linguistic perception beyond that of mortal ken was possible by the native speaker of the language posting, while the non-native speakers of English were locked within cramped prisons of visionless mental poverty, thanks to their inferior linguistic background. I finally got around to debunking a load of small-minded claptrap, in other words. credoquaabsurdum wrote on 09 May 2005: > I snip everything in my posts as a matter of throwaway habit. I see. Thank you for the explanation. I snipt the balance of the post because I would have preferred to see what the OP said rather than read what seems to be a tendentious and judgmental summary of previous statements and events. I'm not saying that your summary is at all inaccurate, but simply that I would have preferred to make my own judgments, had I felt they were called for. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. > credoquaabsurdum wrote on 09 May 2005: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that your summary is at all inaccurate, but simply that I would have > preferred to make my own judgments, had I felt they were called for. The quotes seem to be from a post by me referring to Coppola's thinking behind choosing the title. If you want I can post it again - I think my browser automatically makes a copy of my posts to newsgroups - or else you can make a Google search under the title of the the thread. Our friend, Absurd Believer (admittedly a rather rough and ready translation of his handle), seems to believe that because the word "apocalypse" is of Greek origin and the Greek means "revelation" this means that in modern English "apocalypse" can only mean "revelation". My argument is that the primary modern meaning derives from the vision of the end of the world in the Book of Revelation of St. John, which is also known as the Apocalypse. This is certainly the meaning intended by Coppola and and I believe it was also the meaning understood by most of those who saw the film. Indeed I would even venture to say that Coppola's film probably even strengthened this meaning of the word. I suspect that only some theologians and perhaps some literal-minded people of Greek origin would think that the word was primarily a synonym for "revelation", although I'm quite happy to accept that this is a secondary meaning. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > Our friend, Absurd Believer (admittedly a rather rough and ready > translation of his handle), seems to believe that because the word > "apocalypse" is of Greek origin and the Greek means "revelation" this > means that in modern English "apocalypse" can only mean "revelation". > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > those who saw the film. Indeed I would even venture to say that > Coppola's film probably even strengthened this meaning of the word. I > suspect that only some theologians and perhaps some literal-minded > people of Greek origin would think that the word was primarily a synonym > for "revelation", although I'm quite happy to accept that this is a > secondary meaning. OK, Einde. I'm done with my first full day of classes, and I've snapped back to pre-griffin mode. You have a point, so do I. You should have looked it up before telling the OP (who writes the kind of English that only an extraordinary commitment to the language-learning process can produce in a non-native speaker) "You just don't understand because you don't know my language. I know what the word truly means, and now I'm going to interpret the film in light of my deeper understanding." If we look at the work that you rightly pointed to as the inspiration of that film, _The Heart of Darkness_ (original title in magazine publication), which is an extraordinary novel in English _written by a non-native speaker_ (off the top of my head, I seem to remember something about Conrad learning English in his teens), I think it would be fair to say our manner of dealing with the unknown is something that the film attempts to question. (Shades of Fredric Jameson (style or lack thereof) and Jacques Derrida (substance of lack thereof)...I'm regressing.) All in all, it would have been fair to the poster to look it up before tossing off an answer that privileged original access to language as the primary means of understanding the film. Essentially, it's the same infuriatingly smug argument used by the Greeks to justify how wonderful and special Greek Orthodox Christianity is in contrast to every other variant. It goes something like this, "Our language is better, we have better access to the original language of the Bible and hence the original meaning, and therefore we understand Christ, God and religion better than you do." That's what that whole display at the Olympic opening ceremonies was all about. --- While we're on the subject, has anyone seen the videotape of what happened in Jerusalem yesterday? An elderly, frail priest tried to smuggle bundles of cash and documents out of the Patriarch's compound (which that gentleman has chained himself into), in black plastic garbage bags under his robes. A younger, more muscular priest saw him and grabbed at the money, ripping the trash bags and scattering the loot all over the place. All the priests involved then started grabbing for dollars, euros and shekels. The first old priest lost it and performed the Greek equivalent of giving the second priest the finger before storming off, all on camera. The second priest, arms filled with ripped garbage bags and money galore, walked into the assembly hall and called the Patriarch of Jerusalem, latest inheritor of a line of apostolic succession, a traitor. Kyrie eleison! Is anyone else getting that feed? The networks here are running it every fifteen minutes and it's better than Pay-Per-View! --- Getting back to the message: In my previous post in this, the "Apocalypse" thread, I made several mean-spirited comments and used several inflammatory words that have no right or reason to exist in a group like this. All of them were directed at you, Einde. It was low, and you have not responded in kind. You're a better man than I. > I snipt the balance of the post because I would have preferred to see > what the OP said rather than read what seems to be a tendentious and > judgmental summary of previous statements and events. I'm not saying > that your summary is at all inaccurate, but simply that I would have > preferred to make my own judgments, had I felt they were called for. Point taken and understood. Thanks for the civility of this response, CyberCypher. In light of the sundry comments I've floated around this board in recent days, I could easily have expected to have been flamed down to a pork rind. Let's see if I can fix some of the damage... I snip everything in my posts as a matter of throwaway habit. You mentioned that point in another thread. Let's rectify that now with an explanation. John C's question (the original poster) was prompted by the fact that he was working out of a learner's dictionary to find out what "Apocalypse" meant. Moreover, he was wondering if, by using the expression, the creators of the film were being narrowminded. He was probably right. However, in a quite silly series of pseudo-critical maneuvers based on a jackanape's understanding of a very simple word, readers of this thread were expected to believe that the extension of his powers of linguistic perception beyond that of mortal ken was possible by the native speaker of the language posting, while the non-native speakers of English were locked within cramped prisons of visionless mental poverty, thanks to their inferior linguistic background. I finally got around to debunking a load of small-minded claptrap, in other words. I snip everything in my posts as a matter of throwaway habit. You mentioned that point in another thread. Let's rectify that now with an explanation. John C's question (the original poster) was prompted by the fact that he was working out of a learner's dictionary to find out what "Apocalypse" meant. Moreover, he was wondering if, by using the expression, the creators of the film were being narrowminded. He was probably right. However, in a quite silly series of pseudo-critical maneuvers based on a jackanapes's understanding of a very simple word, readers of this thread were expected to believe that the extension of his powers of linguistic perception beyond that of mortal ken was possible by the native speaker of the language posting, while the non-native speakers of English were locked within cramped prisons of visionless mental poverty, thanks to their inferior linguistic background. I finally got around to debunking a load of small-minded claptrap, in other words. > What manner of English teacher would go on and on and on about the > meaning of the word "apocalypse" without looking it up? From, for example, the Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary: apocalypse noun [S or U] 1 a very serious event resulting in great destruction and change: The book offers a vision of the future in which there is a great nuclear apocalypse. 2 the Apocalypse in the Bible, the total destruction and end of the world Or from the Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary: apocalypse noun 1 [sing., U] the destruction of the world: Civilization is on the brink of apocalypse. 2 the Apocalypse [sing.] the end of the world, as described in the Bible 3 [sing.] a situation causing very serious damage and destruction: an environmental apocalypse > Why that > particular, utterly foreign, word was chosen as the title of the last [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > think they might have something in common? Oh no...just spin out the > bull and go with the flow. I'm well aware of the fact that the Apocalypse is also called the Book of Revelation - indceed I've read a Catholic translation of the book where it's called the Apocalypse and the King James Version where it is called Revelation IIRC. > "Apocalypse," in its root form, is a Greek loanword that means > discovery or, duh, revelation. It has come to mean the same as the > ending of the world only through its association with Christianity. Exactly - a word that has one derivation comes to have a different meaning because of some other connotation that arises in another context. This sort of thing happens all the time. Another example is the word "holocaust", which originally refers to the form of sacrifice practised by the Hebrews, but now has a very different (perhaps even primary) meaning referring to Hitler's Final Solution. There is nothing unusual with words changing their meanin over time. The word "nice" has meant many different things over the centuries and once meant almost the diametrical opposite of its rather bland pleasant meaning today. > I > am sure Coppola or one of the umpteen people he had working for him > spent the three minutes necessary to look it up in the days of paper > references (not the fifteen seconds of today) Coppola, a man of Catholic upbringing, was referring to the Christian connotations which have resulted in the primary meaning of the word today. > and to think about it > (depends on the quality of the mind involved) before posting it up. You seem to be describing yourself. > "...carries connotations of the struggle of good and evil..." > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > "...apocalyptic vision..." (oxymoron) Not in the sense given for the word as given in the Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary: apocalyptic adj. 1 describing very serious damage and destruction in past or future events: an apocalyptic view of history apocalyptic warnings of the end of society 2 like the end of the world: an apocalyptic scene > The horror...the horror... At last a quote from the film. Einde O'Callaghan > > What manner of English teacher would go on and on and on about the > > meaning of the word "apocalypse" without looking it up? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > 2 the Apocalypse [sing.] the end of the world, as described in the Bible > 3 [sing.] a situation causing very serious damage and destruction: an > environmental apocalypse OK, I'm really going to work not to be mean-spirited about this, despite my occasional tendencies to fire off salvoes in anger. Einde, those dictionaries are learner's dictionaries. They are primarily designed for foreign language learners seeking for easily-accesible information regarding a topic. Professionals are supposed to have all kinds of professional resources; that's one of the reasons the learners pay us. It's an old argument, and it boils down to this: aren't language teachers, and especially native speaker language teachers, supposed to be something like a real point of access to the target language for their students? Simply the fact that Britain makes more money on English language teaching than it does on its entire music business would seem to bear witness to the fact that what I am talking about is a reasonable expectation. --- OED Online "apocalypse" 1. (With capital initial.) The 'revelation' of the future granted to St. John in the isle of Patmos. The book of the New Testament in which this is recorded. [c1175 Lamb. Hom. 81 Herof seid Seint Johan e ewangeliste in apocalipsi.] c1230 Ancr. R. 94 'Hit is a derne halewi,' sei sein Johan ewangeliste in e Apocalipse. c1400 Rom. Rose 7395 That sallow horse of hewe, That in the Apocalips is shewed. a1440 Sir Degrev. 1437 The Pocalyps of Ion. 1581 WALKER in Confer. IV. (1584) Ziiijb, The Laodicean Councill omitteth Lukes Gospel & the Apocalyps. 1667 MILTON P.L. IV. 2 That warning voice which he who saw Th' Apocalyps, heard cry in Heaven aloud. 1870 DISRAELI Lothair xliv. 230 The long-controverted point whether Rome in the great Apocalypse was signified by Babylon. 2. By extension: Any revelation or disclosure. 1382 WYCLIF 1 Cor. xiv. 26 He hath techinge, he hath apocalips, or reuelacioun, he hath tunge. 1621 BURTON Anat. Mel. 677 (L.) Interpret apocalypses, and those hidden mysteries to private persons. 1704 SWIFT T. Tub i. (1750) 31 The Revelation or rather the Apocalypse of all State~arcana. 1831 CARLYLE Sart. Res. II. v, The new apocalypse of Nature unrolled to him. --- > I'm well aware of the fact that the Apocalypse is also called the Book > of Revelation - indceed I've read a Catholic translation of the book > where it's called the Apocalypse and the King James Version where it is > called Revelation IIRC. I would really be impressed if you could tell me why the Authorized version called it the "Revelation _IIRC_." It would take a good deal of searching to find that, for a non-specialist. I've read Douays-Rheims and KJV as well, parts of other English versions, and snippets of the original. Please, please tell me that you are not trying to prove something about how refined you are, Einde! I'm a hick from Upstate New York, a professional hick, of sorts, but still zero generations away from classic immigrant Eurotrash. I despise bourgeois tendencies to insist on elevated levels of personal cultivation! And yes, I have looked you up!?! > > "Apocalypse," in its root form, is a Greek loanword that means > > discovery or, duh, revelation. It has come to mean the same as the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > by the Hebrews, but now has a very different (perhaps even primary) > meaning referring to Hitler's Final Solution. Now that's an interesting one. Moreover, citing the reference to that one will prove that you do usually know exactly what you are talking about: --- OED Online (holocaust) [a. F. holocauste (12th c.), ad. late L. holocaustum, a. Gr. neut. of (by-form of ), f. - whole + , burnt.] 1. A sacrifice wholly consumed by fire; a whole burnt offering. c1250 Gen. & Ex. 1326 Ysaac was leid at auter on, So men sulden holocaust don. 1526 TINDALE Mark xii. 33 A greater thynge then all holocaustes and sacrifises. 1680 H. MORE Apocal. Apoc. 101 In the latter part thereof stands the altar of Holocausts. 1732 BERKELEY Alciphr. v. §3 Those Druids would have sacrificed many a holocaust of free-thinkers. 1847 GROTE Greece II. xxxii. (1862) III. 162 A holocaust of the most munificent character. 2. transf. and fig. a. A complete sacrifice or offering. b. A sacrifice on a large scale. 1497 BP. ALCOCK Mons Perfect. Ciija, Very true obedyence is an holocauste of martyrdom made to Cryste. 1648 J. BEAUMONT Psyche XXIV. cxciv. (R.), The perfect holocaust of generous love. 1688 in Lond. Gaz. No. 2401/1 We..humbly offer our Lives and Fortunes..which is that true Holocaust which all true honest-hearted Scotsmen will give to so good..a Prince. a1711 KEN Anodynes Poet. Wks. 1721 III. 477 While I thy Holocaust remain. 1868 M. PATTISON Academ. Org. v. 139 By another grand holocaust of fellowships we might perhaps purchase another respite. c. Complete consumption by fire, or that which is so consumed; complete destruction, esp. of a large number of persons; a great slaughter or massacre. 1671 MILTON Samson 1702 Like that self-begotten bird In the Arabian woods embost, That no second knows nor third, And lay erewhile a Holocaust. a1711 KEN Christophil Poet. Wks. 1721 I. 442 Shou'd gen'ral Flame this World consume.. An Holocaust for Fontal Sin. 1833 L. RITCHIE Wand. by Loire 104 Louis VII..once made a holocaust of thirteen hundred persons in a church. 1883 B. M. CROKER Pretty Miss Neville III. 124 When Major Percival has made a holocaust of your letters. 1940 Hansard Commons 6 Mar. 416 The general holocaust of civilised standards. 1944 H. F. RUBINSTEIN Hated Servants 167 The siege will take a heavy toll, and few who live to the end of it will survive the holocaust that must follow. 1987 Sunday Tel. 23 Nov. 15 (heading) Aids: the new holocaust. d. the Holocaust: the mass murder of the Jews by the Nazis in the war of 1939-1945. Also used transf., of the similar fate of other groups; and attrib. The specific application was introduced by historians during the 1950s, probably as an equivalent to Heb. urban and shoah 'catastrophe' (used in the same sense); but it had been foreshadowed by contemporary references to the Nazi atrocities as a 'holocaust' (sense 2 c): see quots. 1942-49. The term is in common use among Jews, but seems to be otherwise relatively rare except among specialists. [1942 News Chron. 5 Dec. 2/2 Holocaust...Nothing else in Hitler's record is comparable to his treatment of the Jews...The word has gone forth that..the Jewish peoples are to be exterminated...The conscience of humanity stands aghast. 1943 Hansard Lords 23 Mar. 826 The Nazis go on killing..If this rule could be relaxed, some hundreds, and possibly a few thousands, might be enabled to escape from this holocaust. 1945 M. R. COHEN in S. Goldschmidt Legal Claims against Germany p.vi, Millions of surviving victims of the Nazi holocaust, Jews and non-Jews, will stand before us in the years to come. 1949 Proc. Amer. Acad. for Jewish Research XVIII. 193 Problems of Jewish Hurban research.] 1957 Yad Washem Bull. Apr. 35/2 (heading) Research on the Holocaust Period. 1958 Ibid. July 2/2 The catastrophe which overtook us...The Inquisition..is not the same as the Holocaust. 1962 B. GLANVILLE Diamond xviii. 296 The holocaust..was the inevitable end, the logical conclusion of the pogroms, the Mosley marches, the hatred. 1965 A. DONAT (title) The holocaust kingdom. 1967 N. COHN Warrant for Genocide ix. 208 By the autumn of 1944 the holocaust was nearing its conclusion. 1968 Manch. Guardian Weekly 25 Apr. 10/4 There is now within modern history a compartment of 'holocaust studies'dealing with the wholesale destruction by the Nazis of European Jewry. 1972 F. FORSYTH Odessa File 306 The mausoleum of Yad Vashem,..the shrine to six million of his fellow Jews who died in the holocaust. 1980 Jewish Chron. 18 Apr. 9/3 A memorial service..to mark Holocaust Day. transf. 1973 T. BIELECZKI & L. SZYMANSKI Warsaw Aflame 5 Genocide against the Polish as well as the Jewish sections of the population...Warsaw Aflame was..written by men who lived through the holocaust. 1981 N. DAVIES God's Playground II. xx. 454 From 1941, Poland became the home of humanity's Holocaust. 1981 F. RECTOR Nazi Extermination of Homosexuals vi. 115 The number of gay Holocaust victims is substantial. Ibid. 116 At least 500,000 gays died in the Holocaust. 1985 A. RAMATI And Violins stopped playing (1986) 7 The Germans don't even admit that there was a Gypsy holocaust..there are memorials in Auschwitz for all the nations whose people died there, except for the Gypsies! Hence holocaust v. trans., to offer as a holocaust. holocaustal, holocaustic adjs., belonging to or of the nature of a holocaust. 1651 CLEVELAND Poems 52 Where you might have seen His conscience holocausted to his spleen. 1828 Blackw. Mag. XXIV. 350 The retainers, ruggin' and rivin' at holocaustal sheep. 1871 R. B. VAUGHAN St. Thomas of Aquin II. 920 The first principles of holocaustic sacrifice. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DRAFT ADDITIONS DECEMBER 2002 holocaust, n. Holocaust denial (also holocaust denial), denial that the Holocaust (sense 2d) occurred, or insistence that it has been greatly exaggerated; usually as part of a general espousal of extreme right-wing or neo-Nazi ideology. 1984 W. GLEBERZON in Interchange on Educ. 14-15 66 It is evident that the *Holocaust denial writers..are writing from a new perspective on the pastone arising out of their basic premise that the Holocaust..is based on lies. 2000 R. G. TEITEL Transitional Justice iii. 106 Holocaust denial now creates a basis for criminal prosecution [in the U.S.]. According to the new laws, if a person 'approved, denied or made light of acts of genocide perpetrated under the Nazis' and the insulted party is a member of a group persecuted..this act gives rise to criminal liability. Holocaust denier (also holocaust denier), a person who engages in Holocaust denial, esp. as part of a consistent campaign or entrenched opinion. 1985 Globe & Mail (Toronto) 9 Mar. 7/6 The terms '*Holocaust deniers' or 'history falsifiers' are more accurate to describe..his network of supporters throughout the world. 1995 N. G. FINKELSTEIN Image & Reality of Israel-Palestine Conflict 193 One of the more crude Nazi holocaust deniers asserts that the '500,000 concentration camp survivors' proves that the Third Reich did not pursue a systematic extermination policy. 2000 Daily Tel. (Electronic ed.) 12 Apr., He was a Holocaust denier, who had..rubbished the existence of the gas chambers and twisted events to portray Hitler in a favourable light. ------------------------------- > There is nothing unusual with words changing their meanin over time. The > word "nice" has meant many different things over the centuries and once > meant almost the diametrical opposite of its rather bland pleasant > meaning today. It would exhaust the available space in this post and the patience of any reader whatsoever to answer that responsibly. You have a point and you don't here, and I will concede that what you say about "nice" is more or less true. However, asking that we forget to consider the etymology of a word that is almost exclusively used in reference at either no or one remove from its original meaning is unreasonable, and I think you will agree about that, once we take a step away from this somewhat heated exchange. Believing that the Coppolas never thought about the meaning in the context I have described, as you do below, is naive, and I think you will agree on that as well. > > I > > am sure Coppola or one of the umpteen people he had working for him > > spent the three minutes necessary to look it up in the days of paper > > references (not the fifteen seconds of today) > > Coppola, a man of Catholic upbringing, was referring to the Christian > connotations which have resulted in the primary meaning of the word today. So here you have finally gone and written (all exaggeration, bullying and big talk aside)in my first experience of your work, something truly questionable. The question that your blanket statement invokes is very simple. HOW DO YOU KNOW? Do you have some kind of unbelievable access to the mind of anyone else? Right now, I would certainly be hard-pressed to tell you what my brother, mother, or ex-wife is thinking. My father's dead and I don't have a dog. But he was, indeed, a devout Greek Orthodox Christian whose lifelong ambition was to be a Greek Orthodox priest. I once had the same ambition. I have extensively read the Old and New Testaments and other books that are considered holy, to the point where I do feel comfortable having occasional (admittedly amateurish) theological discussions with ordained theologians. Given my previous post in this thread and the context of this one, are you willing to state with equal certainty that I am a true believer as well??? > > and to think about it > > (depends on the quality of the mind involved) before posting it up. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > of society > 2 like the end of the world: an apocalyptic scene OK, what I wrote was a miserably low, insulting thing to say to a decent man. But here, you continue to insist that a learner's dictionary is appropriate for a teacher attempting to give a deeper answer to a student's questions. I realize that we usually get them for free and we encourage our students to use them, but really, honestly, do you have those books up on your bookshelf wasting your valuable teacher's reference space? You also haven't pulled down Macmillan, Collins Cobuild or Chamber's to quote from, or anything else that might be more questionable, so I refuse to think that you believe unhesitantly that this is the best way to deal with all English language learner's questions. > > The horror...the horror... I suppose my last words are...of language learning and teaching in general. Anyway, Einde, I hope that you will accept this as an apology of sorts. If you do not, that's fine, but I felt I had to make the gesture. > > What manner of English teacher would go on and on and on about the > > meaning of the word "apocalypse" without looking it up? > From, for example, the Cambridge Advanced Learners Dictionary: > apocalypse > noun [S or U] > 1 a very serious event resulting in great destruction and change: > The book offers a vision of the future in which there is a great nuclear > apocalypse. > 2 the Apocalypse in the Bible, the total destruction and end of the world > Or from the Oxford Advanced Learners Dictionary: > apocalypse noun > 1 [sing., U] the destruction of the world: Civilization is on the brink > of apocalypse. > 2 the Apocalypse [sing.] the end of the world, as described in the Bible > 3 [sing.] a situation causing very serious damage and destruction: an > environmental apocalypse OK, I'm really going to work not to be mean-spirited about this, despite my occasional tendencies to fire off salvoes in anger. Einde, those dictionaries are learner's dictionaries. They are primarily designed for foreign language learners seeking easily-accesible information regarding word choice. Professionals are supposed to have all kinds of professional resources--that's one of the reasons the learners pay us. It's an old argument, and it boils down to this: aren't language teachers, and especially native speaker language teachers, supposed to be a real point of access to the target language for their students? Simply the fact that Britain makes more money on English language teaching than it does on its entire music business would seem to bear witness to the fact that what I am talking about is a reasonable expectation. --- OED Online "apocalypse" 1. (With capital initial.) The 'revelation' of the future granted to St. John in the isle of Patmos. The book of the New Testament in which this is recorded. [c1175 Lamb. Hom. 81 Herof seid Seint Johan e ewangeliste in apocalipsi.] c1230 Ancr. R. 94 'Hit is a derne halewi,' sei sein Johan ewangeliste in e Apocalipse. c1400 Rom. Rose 7395 That sallow horse of hewe, That in the Apocalips is shewed. a1440 Sir Degrev. 1437 The Pocalyps of Ion. 1581 WALKER in Confer. IV. (1584) Ziiijb, The Laodicean Councill omitteth Lukes Gospel & the Apocalyps. 1667 MILTON P.L. IV. 2 That warning voice which he who saw Th' Apocalyps, heard cry in Heaven aloud. 1870 DISRAELI Lothair xliv. 230 The long-controverted point whether Rome in the great Apocalypse was signified by Babylon. 2. By extension: Any revelation or disclosure. 1382 WYCLIF 1 Cor. xiv. 26 He hath techinge, he hath apocalips, or reuelacioun, he hath tunge. 1621 BURTON Anat. Mel. 677 (L.) Interpret apocalypses, and those hidden mysteries to private persons. 1704 SWIFT T. Tub i. (1750) 31 The Revelation or rather the Apocalypse of all State~arcana. 1831 CARLYLE Sart. Res. II. v, The new apocalypse of Nature unrolled to him. --- I think I've made my point here. No, I do not believe that you cannot be considered a language teacher if you do not shell out the money yearly for something like this, but you could at least have a Concise Oxford and a Merriam Webster's Collegiate on your shelf. --- > I'm well aware of the fact that the Apocalypse is also called the Book > of Revelation - indceed I've read a Catholic translation of the book > where it's called the Apocalypse and the King James Version where it is > called Revelation IIRC. I would really be impressed if you could tell me why the Authorized version called it the "Revelation _IIRC_." It would take a good deal of searching to find that, for a non-specialist. I've read Douays-Rheims and KJV as well, parts of other English versions, and snippets of the original. Please, please tell me that you are not trying to prove something about how refined you are, Einde! I'm a hick from Upstate New York, a professional hick, of sorts, but still zero generations away from classic immigrant Eurotrash. I despise bourgeois tendencies to insist on elevated levels of personal cultivation! And yes, I have looked you up!?! > > "Apocalypse," in its root form, is a Greek loanword that means > > discovery or, duh, revelation. It has come to mean the same as the > > ending of the world only through its association with Christianity. > Exactly - a word that has one derivation comes to have a different > meaning because of some other connotation that arises in another context. > This sort of thing happens all the time. Another example is the word > "holocaust", which originally refers to the form of sacrifice practised > by the Hebrews, but now has a very different (perhaps even primary) > meaning referring to Hitler's Final Solution. Now that's an interesting one. Moreover, citing the reference to that one will prove that you do usually know exactly what you are talking about: --- OED Online (holocaust) [a. F. holocauste (12th c.), ad. late L. holocaustum, a. Gr. neut. of (by-form of ), f. - whole + , burnt.] 1. A sacrifice wholly consumed by fire; a whole burnt offering. c1250 Gen. & Ex. 1326 Ysaac was leid at auter on, So men sulden holocaust don. 1526 TINDALE Mark xii. 33 A greater thynge then all holocaustes and sacrifises. 1680 H. MORE Apocal. Apoc. 101 In the latter part thereof stands the altar of Holocausts. 1732 BERKELEY Alciphr. v. §3 Those Druids would have sacrificed many a holocaust of free-thinkers. 1847 GROTE Greece II. xxxii. (1862) III. 162 A holocaust of the most munificent character. 2. transf. and fig. a. A complete sacrifice or offering. b. A sacrifice on a large scale. 1497 BP. ALCOCK Mons Perfect. Ciija, Very true obedyence is an holocauste of martyrdom made to Cryste. 1648 J. BEAUMONT Psyche XXIV. cxciv. (R.), The perfect holocaust of generous love. 1688 in Lond. Gaz. No. 2401/1 We..humbly offer our Lives and Fortunes..which is that true Holocaust which all true honest-hearted Scotsmen will give to so good..a Prince. a1711 KEN Anodynes Poet. Wks. 1721 III. 477 While I thy Holocaust remain. 1868 M. PATTISON Academ. Org. v. 139 By another grand holocaust of fellowships we might perhaps purchase another respite. c. Complete consumption by fire, or that which is so consumed; complete destruction, esp. of a large number of persons; a great slaughter or massacre. 1671 MILTON Samson 1702 Like that self-begotten bird In the Arabian woods embost, That no second knows nor third, And lay erewhile a Holocaust. a1711 KEN Christophil Poet. Wks. 1721 I. 442 Shou'd gen'ral Flame this World consume.. An Holocaust for Fontal Sin. 1833 L. RITCHIE Wand. by Loire 104 Louis VII..once made a holocaust of thirteen hundred persons in a church. 1883 B. M. CROKER Pretty Miss Neville III. 124 When Major Percival has made a holocaust of your letters. 1940 Hansard Commons 6 Mar. 416 The general holocaust of civilised standards. 1944 H. F. RUBINSTEIN Hated Servants 167 The siege will take a heavy toll, and few who live to the end of it will survive the holocaust that must follow. 1987 Sunday Tel. 23 Nov. 15 (heading) Aids: the new holocaust. d. the Holocaust: the mass murder of the Jews by the Nazis in the war of 1939-1945. Also used transf., of the similar fate of other groups; and attrib. The specific application was introduced by historians during the 1950s, probably as an equivalent to Heb. urban and shoah 'catastrophe' (used in the same sense); but it had been foreshadowed by contemporary references to the Nazi atrocities as a 'holocaust' (sense 2 c): see quots. 1942-49. The term is in common use among Jews, but seems to be otherwise relatively rare except among specialists. [1942 News Chron. 5 Dec. 2/2 Holocaust...Nothing else in Hitler's record is comparable to his treatment of the Jews...The word has gone forth that..the Jewish peoples are to be exterminated...The conscience of humanity stands aghast. 1943 Hansard Lords 23 Mar. 826 The Nazis go on killing..If this rule could be relaxed, some hundreds, and possibly a few thousands, might be enabled to escape from this holocaust. 1945 M. R. COHEN in S. Goldschmidt Legal Claims against Germany p.vi, Millions of surviving victims of the Nazi holocaust, Jews and non-Jews, will stand before us in the years to come. 1949 Proc. Amer. Acad. for Jewish Research XVIII. 193 Problems of Jewish Hurban research.] 1957 Yad Washem Bull. Apr. 35/2 (heading) Research on the Holocaust Period. 1958 Ibid. July 2/2 The catastrophe which overtook us...The Inquisition..is not the same as the Holocaust. 1962 B. GLANVILLE Diamond xviii. 296 The holocaust..was the inevitable end, the logical conclusion of the pogroms, the Mosley marches, the hatred. 1965 A. DONAT (title) The holocaust kingdom. 1967 N. COHN Warrant for Genocide ix. 208 By the autumn of 1944 the holocaust was nearing its conclusion. 1968 Manch. Guardian Weekly 25 Apr. 10/4 There is now within modern history a compartment of 'holocaust studies'dealing with the wholesale destruction by the Nazis of European Jewry. 1972 F. FORSYTH Odessa File 306 The mausoleum of Yad Vashem,..the shrine to six million of his fellow Jews who died in the holocaust. 1980 Jewish Chron. 18 Apr. 9/3 A memorial service..to mark Holocaust Day. transf. 1973 T. BIELECZKI & L. SZYMANSKI Warsaw Aflame 5 Genocide against the Polish as well as the Jewish sections of the population...Warsaw Aflame was..written by men who lived through the holocaust. 1981 N. DAVIES God's Playground II. xx. 454 From 1941, Poland became the home of humanity's Holocaust. 1981 F. RECTOR Nazi Extermination of Homosexuals vi. 115 The number of gay Holocaust victims is substantial. Ibid. 116 At least 500,000 gays died in the Holocaust. 1985 A. RAMATI And Violins stopped playing (1986) 7 The Germans don't even admit that there was a Gypsy holocaust..there are memorials in Auschwitz for all the nations whose people died there, except for the Gypsies! Hence holocaust v. trans., to offer as a holocaust. holocaustal, holocaustic adjs., belonging to or of the nature of a holocaust. 1651 CLEVELAND Poems 52 Where you might have seen His conscience holocausted to his spleen. 1828 Blackw. Mag. XXIV. 350 The retainers, ruggin' and rivin' at holocaustal sheep. 1871 R. B. VAUGHAN St. Thomas of Aquin II. 920 The first principles of holocaustic sacrifice. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DRAFT ADDITIONS DECEMBER 2002 holocaust, n. Holocaust denial (also holocaust denial), denial that the Holocaust (sense 2d) occurred, or insistence that it has been greatly exaggerated; usually as part of a general espousal of extreme right-wing or neo-Nazi ideology. 1984 W. GLEBERZON in Interchange on Educ. 14-15 66 It is evident that the *Holocaust denial writers..are writing from a new perspective on the pastone arising out of their basic premise that the Holocaust..is based on lies. 2000 R. G. TEITEL Transitional Justice iii. 106 Holocaust denial now creates a basis for criminal prosecution [in the U.S.]. According to the new laws, if a person 'approved, denied or made light of acts of genocide perpetrated under the Nazis' and the insulted party is a member of a group persecuted..this act gives rise to criminal liability. Holocaust denier (also holocaust denier), a person who engages in Holocaust denial, esp. as part of a consistent campaign or entrenched opinion. 1985 Globe & Mail (Toronto) 9 Mar. 7/6 The terms '*Holocaust deniers' or 'history falsifiers' are more accurate to describe..his network of supporters throughout the world. 1995 N. G. FINKELSTEIN Image & Reality of Israel-Palestine Conflict 193 One of the more crude Nazi holocaust deniers asserts that the '500,000 concentration camp survivors' proves that the Third Reich did not pursue a systematic extermination policy. 2000 Daily Tel. (Electronic ed.) 12 Apr., He was a Holocaust denier, who had..rubbished the existence of the gas chambers and twisted events to portray Hitler in a favourable light. ------------------------------- > There is nothing unusual with words changing their meanin over time. The > word "nice" has meant many different things over the centuries and once > meant almost the diametrical opposite of its rather bland pleasant > meaning today. It would exhaust the available space in this post and the patience of any reader whatsoever to answer that responsibly. You have a point and you don't here, and I will concede that what you say about "nice" is more or less true. However, asking that we forget to consider the etymology of a word like "apocalypse" that is almost exclusively used in reference at either no or one remove from its original meaning is unreasonable, and I think you will agree about that, once we take a step away from this somewhat heated exchange. Believing that the Coppolas never thought about the meaning in the context I have described, as you state below, is naive, and I think you will agree on that as well in the future. > > I > > am sure Coppola or one of the umpteen people he had working for him > > spent the three minutes necessary to look it up in the days of paper > > references (not the fifteen seconds of today) > Coppola, a man of Catholic upbringing, was referring to the Christian > connotations which have resulted in the primary meaning of the word >today. Here you have finally gone and written (all exaggeration, bullying and big talk aside) in my first experience of your work, something truly questionable. Very simply: HOW DO YOU KNOW? Do you have some kind of unbelievable access to the mind of anyone else? Right now, I would certainly be hard-pressed to tell you what my brother, mother, or ex-wife is thinking. My father's dead and I don't have a dog. But he was, indeed, a devout Greek Orthodox Christian whose lifelong ambition was to be a Greek Orthodox priest. I once had the same ambition. I have extensively read the Old and New Testaments and other books that are considered holy, to the point where I do feel comfortable having occasional (admittedly amateurish) theological discussions with ordained theologians. Given my previous post in this thread and the context of this one, are you willing to state with equal certainty that I am a true believer as well??? This kind of biographical pseudo-psychoanalytical "authorial intent" literary criticism has always been suspect precisely for that reason. > > and to think about it > > (depends on the quality of the mind involved) before posting it up. > You seem to be describing yourself. > > "...carries connotations of the struggle of good and evil..." > > "...parallels the rule of the Antichhrist..." > > "...final holocaust..." > > "...quite deliberately chose the title to emphasise the destruction..." > > "...apocalyptic vision..." (oxymoron) > Not in the sense given for the word as given in the Oxford Advanced > Learners Dictionary: > apocalyptic adj. > 1 describing very serious damage and destruction in past or future > events: an apocalyptic view of history apocalyptic warnings of the end > of society > 2 like the end of the world: an apocalyptic scene OK, what I wrote was a low, insulting thing to say to a decent man. I said much worse in that post and I thank you for overlooking it. But here, you continue to insist that a learner's dictionary is appropriate for a teacher attempting to give a deeper answer to a student's questions. I realize that we usually get them for free and we encourage our students to use them, but is using them to deepen our own understanding of the language a viable teacher development strategy? You also haven't pulled down Macmillan, Collins Cobuild or Chamber's to quote from, or anything else that might be even more questionable, so I refuse to think that you believe with no hesitation that this is the best way to deal with all English language learner's questions on lexis. > > The horror...the horror... I suppose my last words are...of language learning and teaching in general. I didn't even specifically remember that it was a quote from the film. Anyway, Einde, I hope that you will accept this as an apology of sorts. If you do not, that's fine, but I felt I had to make the gesture. >>>What manner of English teacher would go on and on and on about the >>>meaning of the word "apocalypse" without looking it up? [quoted text clipped - 387 lines] > best way to deal with all English language learner's questions on > lexis. The OALD is a subset of the Oxford English Dictionary, and the meanings given are the main contemporary meanings in colloquial english. That is why I quoted it. In my discussion of the film I'm assuming the contemporary meaning of the word not it's historic meaning. I also quote them to show that my interpretation isn't some idiosyncrasy of my idiolect. I quoted them also because they are readily available on-line. However in the COD, another subset of the OED not available on-line, apocalypse is defined as "grand or violent event resembling those described in St. John's book". >>>The horror...the horror... > > I suppose my last words are...of language learning and teaching in > general. I didn't even specifically remember that it was a quote from > the film. If this is your attitude to english and English teaching I suggest you find another career. > Anyway, Einde, I hope that you will accept this as an apology of sorts. > > If you do not, that's fine, but I felt I had to make the gesture. I'm prepared tpo accept this as a sort of apology, but don't be surprosed if I disagree with you in the future - and you really do need to work on your attitude and approach in this newsgroup. If you want to be polemical and get rid of your aggression try alt.usage.english or alt.english.usage, where you'll have plenty of opportunity to do so. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > The OALD is a subset of the Oxford English Dictionary, and the meanings > given are the main contemporary meanings in colloquial english. That is > why I quoted it. I don't know you told you this, but I suggest you take a look at the publishing history of the OALDCE and, in general, the work of A.S. Hornby. A good starting point: http://www.answers.com/oxford%20advanced%20learner's%20dictionary > In my discussion of the film I'm assuming the contemporary meaning of > the word not it's historic meaning. I also quote them to show that my > interpretation isn't some idiosyncrasy of my idiolect. > > I quoted them also because they are readily available on-line. However > in the COD, another subset of the OED not available on-line, apocalypse > is defined as "grand or violent event resembling those described in St. > John's book". The Concise Oxford Dictionary was put together originally by H.W. Fowler and his brother. It had no connection with the OED Project originally. However, the COD is indeed a respectable dictionary for a language teacher to get information out of. While that publishing project is now tenuously linked to the OED Project, there are still certain gaps in publication information. http://www.answers.com/topic/concise-oxford-dictionary > >>>The horror...the horror... > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If this is your attitude to english and English teaching I suggest you > find another career. Einde, a good principle when making reference to important novels is to actually read them! Otherwise, rather obvious allusions will sail right over your head. People will begin to think that you spend far too much time at the talkies and not enough in the library. http://www.online-literature.com/conrad/heart_of_darkness > I'm prepared to accept this as a sort of apology, but don't be > surprised if I disagree with you in the future - and you really do need > to work on your attitude and approach in this newsgroup. Stuffy, but if you were actually that stuffy, you would have found a different job as well, long, long ago. And you might be right. When you disagree, could you please do it in more substantial terms than, "This is my gut feeling about the language and I _know_ that stupid schmuck credoquaabsurdum is wrong!" ? > If you want to be polemical and get rid of your aggression try > alt.usage.english or alt.english.usage, where you'll have plenty of > opportunity to do so. No, my participation in this group is not in response to some sort of court-ordered anger management therapy. The sentiment is much appreciated, however. John C wrote: > "wheat" <wheatbread@gmail.com> wrote > > John, you're taking the word a little too literally. Vietnam really [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Not really. I am not taking the word 'a little too literally". In light of the OED definitions posted by others, it would have been more accurate to say you're not taking the word's meaning literally enough. What I meant is that you are focusing on one meaning of the word at the expense of other, larger, more metaphorical uses. > I don't know where you are from. A little digging would have turned that up easily enough. > In selecting the title, were the movie makers so narrow in their > outlook to think that America was the world ? I sincerely doubt it, both because Coppola, on even a cursory view of his work, strikes me as far from narrow in his outlook, and because the film in question is a criticism, commentary, and medication on the USA's role in the Vietnam war. Plus, for the Vietnamese people, I'm quite sure the war did seem like an apocalypse in the sense your dictionary describes. But don't let the facts of the case under discussion keep you from taking an unfounded and pointless jibe at Americans in general (and if you have difficulty understanding this last sentence, look up "sarcasm" in your dictionary). Wheat |
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