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John Briggs - 03 Mar 2011 23:21 GMT

I have just been reading detective novel "The Likeness" by Tana French,
and noticed some Americanisms. I then realised that the copy I was
reading was reading was the American edition. Digging deeper, I find
that there are actually *three* editions: American, British, and Irish
(the author lives in Dublin, and the story is set there.) Now, I can
understand the necessity for a different American edition, but how would
the Irish and British editions differ? Can anyone who has read this book
(or others by this author, or other books in different British and Irish
editions) throw any light on this?

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John Briggs

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Peter Duncanson - 04 Mar 2011 00:48 GMT

>I have just been reading detective novel "The Likeness" by Tana French,
>and noticed some Americanisms. I then realised that the copy I was
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>(or others by this author, or other books in different British and Irish
>editions) throw any light on this?

What terminology is used for the police? In the Republic of Ireland the
police force is An Garda Síochána. In Irish a police officer is a Garda,
plural Gardai. In Irish English a police officer is a Guard, plural
Guards.
http://www.garda.ie/

The use of "guard" is completely normal in Irish English. It is used in
a question on this forum:
http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=42266
The use of the word "guard" would be totally perplexing to someone who
did not know that it means "police officer".

A friend of mine was driving her brother's car a few weeks ago and
was stopped by a guard. she told the guard straight away that it was
her brothers car and the reason that she was driving it was cause
her brother had a asthma attack (he was also in the car). the guard
told her that she shouldn't be driving the car unless she has open
insurance which she didn't. she didn't get a fine or anything.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
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John Briggs - 04 Mar 2011 01:49 GMT

>> I have just been reading detective novel "The Likeness" by Tana French,
>> and noticed some Americanisms. I then realised that the copy I was
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> plural Gardai. In Irish English a police officer is a Guard, plural
> Guards.

Yes - I know that, you know that, and I would expect most literate
people in Britain to know that. So I wouldn't have expected any
difference between the British and Irish editions. Unfortunately, I have
only read the American edition - it has only one word of Irish in the
whole book: a single instance of "Garda" (as the title of the rank -
Constable.) Similarly, there seems to be a fairly complete absence of
Irish English, but I don't know if that is due to it being the American
edition - I don't know how much has been changed. ["Guard" is not used.]

But my original question still stands: why separate Irish and British
editions?

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John Briggs

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Peter Duncanson - 04 Mar 2011 11:28 GMT

>>> I have just been reading detective novel "The Likeness" by Tana French,
>>> and noticed some Americanisms. I then realised that the copy I was
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>But my original question still stands: why separate Irish and British
>editions?

I haven't read any edition of the book so I was just speculating about
terminological differences.

I seem to recall that in one episode of the TV series Father Ted which
was set in the Irish Republic there was a policeman who was referred to
as such rather than as a Garda or Guard. The series was aimed squarely
at the British market.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
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John Briggs - 04 Mar 2011 13:44 GMT

>>>> I have just been reading detective novel "The Likeness" by Tana French,
>>>> and noticed some Americanisms. I then realised that the copy I was
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> I haven't read any edition of the book so I was just speculating about
> terminological differences.

I'm just going to have to get hold of the Irish edition to see.

> I seem to recall that in one episode of the TV series Father Ted which
> was set in the Irish Republic there was a policeman who was referred to
> as such rather than as a Garda or Guard. The series was aimed squarely
> at the British market.

Yes, but it was popular in Ireland. An Garda Síochána *is* a police
force - I just don't know to what extent the Irish use the word "police".

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John Briggs

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David - 04 Mar 2011 11:35 GMT

>> What terminology is used for the police? In the Republic of Ireland the
>> police force is An Garda Síochána. In Irish a police officer is a Garda,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Yes - I know that, you know that, and I would expect most literate people
> in Britain to know that.

I didn't. I knew Garda and Gardai but not Guard and Guards.
Maybe I'm illiterate.

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John Briggs - 04 Mar 2011 14:10 GMT

>>> What terminology is used for the police? In the Republic of Ireland the
>>> police force is An Garda Síochána. In Irish a police officer is a Garda,
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> I didn't. I knew Garda and Gardai but not Guard and Guards.
> Maybe I'm illiterate.

But you would have understood it in context. "An Garda Síochána" means
'guardians of the peace'. The usage is not unlike the Spanish "Guardia
Civil", and they were originally intended to be an armed force. Today
the uniformed Gardai are unarmed, but the plainclothes officers are
armed - and the plot of the novel seems to hinge on that.

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John Briggs

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Peter Duncanson - 04 Mar 2011 14:27 GMT

>>>> What terminology is used for the police? In the Republic of Ireland the
>>>> police force is An Garda Síochána. In Irish a police officer is a Garda,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>But you would have understood it in context. "An Garda Síochána" means
>'guardians of the peace'.

I used to hear occasional mention of the Garda as the "Civic Guard",
which was its original English title.

And:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garda_S%C3%ADoch%C3%A1na#Terminology

"Guard" is the most common form of address used by members of the
public speaking to a garda on duty.

> The usage is not unlike the Spanish "Guardia
>Civil", and they were originally intended to be an armed force. Today
>the uniformed Gardai are unarmed, but the plainclothes officers are
>armed - and the plot of the novel seems to hinge on that.

This is an example of a more general point, the possible use of IrE
slang and colloquialisms in the Irish version of the book.

One IrE phrase which I don't think travels well is "cute hoor": a highly
manipulative person, "he's some cute hoor that lad, isn't he? Started
off in the mail room and now he's running the company".

That and a few others are here:
http://www.irishcentral.com/saint_patricks_day/Talk-like-the-Irish-themselves-th
is-Saint-Patricks-Day-88170917.html

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Peter Duncanson, UK
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Mastrid - 07 Mar 2011 00:55 GMT

> One IrE phrase which I don't think travels well is "cute hoor": a highly
> manipulative person, "he's some cute hoor that lad, isn't he? Started
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Peter Duncanson, UK
> (in uk.culture.language.english)

Today I noticed on the BBC News Channel that an Irish reporter,
speaking from Dublin about the political situation and the formation
of the new coalition, said that some things would become clearer
"whenever the Dail meets on Wednesday". I assumed that "whenever"
here just meant "when", but if taken literally by a British hearer I
think it would suggest doubt about the (presumably unimportant)
question of the hour at which the Dail will meet !

What is the Gaelic name for the letter "R" ? Is it something to do
with the fact that a lot of Irish people, for example, call RTE "Or T
E" but pronounce the word "are" in the usual way ?

Neil

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Einde O'Callaghan - 07 Mar 2011 06:11 GMT

<snip>

> What is the Gaelic name for the letter "R" ? Is it something to do
> with the fact that a lot of Irish people, for example, call RTE "Or T
> E" but pronounce the word "are" in the usual way ?

It's got nothing to do with the Gaelic names of the letters, as in
schools in Ireland the English names of the letters are used - also in
the teaching of Irish (the name the Irish use for what non-Irish people
call Gaelic). It's probably more to do with the fact that Irish English
is what is called a rhotic variant of English, i.e. one where the "r" is
pronounced in all positions.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

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Peter Duncanson - 07 Mar 2011 12:47 GMT

>Today I noticed on the BBC News Channel that an Irish reporter,
>speaking from Dublin about the political situation and the formation
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>think it would suggest doubt about the (presumably unimportant)
>question of the hour at which the Dail will meet !

You assumed correctly.

That Irish use of "whenever" can cause confusion. I recall some years
ago when the comedian Patrick Kielty (from Northern Ireland) was having
a conversation on a British TV chat show he used "whenever" to mean
"when" and cause perplexity in the others present. He didn't understand
why they were confused.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
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John Briggs - 09 Mar 2011 18:15 GMT

> I have just been reading detective novel "The Likeness" by Tana French,
> and noticed some Americanisms. I then realised that the copy I was
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> (or others by this author, or other books in different British and Irish
> editions) throw any light on this?

I can answer my own question: I was wrong - what seems to have happened
is that French worked (presumably simultaneously) with publisher's
editors in three countries to produce a single non-specific text located
somewhere in mid-Atlantic! No wonder I couldn't detect an authentic
Irish feel to the story.

I have got hold of the Irish paperback edition (don't ask...) and the
differences are minimal. Spelling, some trivial idioms: "immersion" vs
"water heater", eight stone five [sic] vs 116 pounds, shoe sizes, dates.
There is one stray "a.s" (as in "kicking") in both, otherwise it is "arse".

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John Briggs

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Discussion Groups / British English / March 2011

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