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You must have liked it a lot

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Franco - 28 Dec 2003 00:35 GMT
"you must have liked it a lot".

Is that sentence correct? And what does it means precisely?

thank you
Franco
arachedeux - 28 Dec 2003 00:48 GMT
> "you must have liked it a lot".
>
> Is that sentence correct?

No you should start a sentence with a capital letter. ;-}
cheers,
Mike Stevens - 28 Dec 2003 00:51 GMT
> "you must have liked it a lot".
>
> Is that sentence correct? And what does it means precisely?

In my view it's perfectly correct idiomatic (but perhaps not formal
literary) UK English.

I'm a bit stuck to paraphrase it, because to me it's self explanatory.
Perhaps "I would assume you were extremely fond of it".

--

Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site http://www.mike-stevens.co.uk
Franco - 28 Dec 2003 01:01 GMT
Mike Stevens ha scritto nel messaggio ...
>> "you must have liked it a lot".
>>
>> Is that sentence correct? And what does it means precisely?
>
>In my view it's perfectly correct idiomatic (but perhaps not formal
>literary) UK English.

What is another way of saying that?

bye
Franco
Einde O'Callaghan - 28 Dec 2003 01:18 GMT
> Mike Stevens ha scritto nel messaggio ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> What is another way of saying that?

"You seem to have liked it a lot" or "It seems (that) you liked it a
lot" have a similar meaning.

Regards, Einde O'callaghan
Mark Brader - 28 Dec 2003 02:24 GMT
"Franco":
]>>>> "you must have liked it a lot".

>>>> Is that sentence correct?

Mike Stevens:
>>> In my view it's perfectly correct idiomatic (but perhaps not formal
>>> literary) UK English.

"Franco":
>> What is another way of saying that?

He means, people in the UK would say it in everyday speech and consider
it perfectly correct, but they might not use it in formal or literary
writing.

I think this is also true in North America.

>>>> And what does it means precisely?

(That should be "mean"; when you use an auxiliary verb like "does", you
don't inflect the main verb for number.)

Here the word "must" implies that a conclusion is being drawn.  "There's
no traffic outside the stadium.  There must not be a game this evening."
In this case the conclusion is that "you" liked it a lot.

Einde O'Callaghan:
> "You seem to have liked it a lot" or "It seems (that) you liked it a
> lot" have a similar meaning.

Indeed.
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Dr Robin Bignall - 28 Dec 2003 23:07 GMT
>> Mike Stevens ha scritto nel messaggio ...
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>"You seem to have liked it a lot" or "It seems (that) you liked it a
>lot" have a similar meaning.

Maybe any confusion comes from the word 'must', which implies compulsion.
The phrase is used so frequently both sides of the Atlantic that it has
become an idiom, in that separate translation of each word does not work.
Perhaps literally "You liked it so very much that you felt compelled to
like it, such that you have never stopped talking about it since you
saw/heard it" might do. The original is easier to say.

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England

Einde O'Callaghan - 29 Dec 2003 00:47 GMT
>>>Mike Stevens ha scritto nel messaggio ...
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Maybe any confusion comes from the word 'must', which implies compulsion.

"Must" is also used when drawing conclusions., e.g. "I've just heard
John has had a serious accident. Jane must be very worried."

None of the English modals has one single unabmbiguous meaning, e.g.
"can" for both "be allowed to" and "be able to".

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Tony Mountifield - 29 Dec 2003 10:17 GMT
> None of the English modals has one single unabmbiguous meaning, e.g.
> "can" for both "be allowed to" and "be able to".

I remember as a child being taught to use "may" for the former.

Tony
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Einde O'Callaghan - 29 Dec 2003 13:01 GMT
>>None of the English modals has one single unabmbiguous meaning, e.g.
>>"can" for both "be allowed to" and "be able to".
>
> I remember as a child being taught to use "may" for the former.

"May" is used for this meaning too, just as it also expresses
possibility. It is considered slightly more formal.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Enrico C - 29 Dec 2003 16:54 GMT
> "May" is used for this meaning too, just as it also expresses
> possibility. It is considered slightly more formal.

Anyway, when I used *can* as less formal *may*, some native speakers
corrected me

So, I mean, you never know. how to make everybody happy!
:-/

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Enrico C  ~  No native speaker

Einde O'Callaghan - 29 Dec 2003 20:12 GMT
>>"May" is used for this meaning too, just as it also expresses
>>possibility. It is considered slightly more formal.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> So, I mean, you never know. how to make everybody happy!
> :-/

Certainly in English as spoken in Ireland "may" is regarded as very
formal and "can" is much more common. English speakers from other areas
might disagree, but I don't think it's a usage where I would correct
somebody.

There is one usage of "can" where "mayW is impossible, i.e. when making
a request, e.g. "Can you open the window, please?", although here
"could" is a bit more formal.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
{R} - 29 Dec 2003 20:21 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english on Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:54:11 +0100,

}Einde O'Callaghan | alt.usage.english,uk.culture.language.english
}in <news:bsp8jf$es21t$1@ID-93601.news.uni-berlin.de>
}
}> "May" is used for this meaning too, just as it also expresses
}> possibility. It is considered slightly more formal.
}
}Anyway, when I used *can* as less formal *may*, some native speakers
}corrected me

Possibly correctly IMO.

The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for
something.

"Can" is strictly to be used to determine if something is possible.

Can that circus ride go backwards?
May I have a go on that circus ride?

{R}
Enrico C - 29 Dec 2003 20:47 GMT
<snip>

> The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for
> something.

> "Can" is strictly to be used to determine if something is possible.


> Can that circus ride go backwards?
> May I have a go on that circus ride?
>
> {R}

Hi Richard,

Don't people use "can" both ways, nowadays?

So, I wonder, how does that usage sound to "learned ears"?
Colloquial? Working-class? Just wrong?

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Enrico C  ~  No native speaker

Raymond S. Wise - 29 Dec 2003 22:45 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> So, I wonder, how does that usage sound to "learned ears"?
> Colloquial? Working-class? Just wrong?

I consider it informal Standard American English--it would not be
remarkable, for example, to see a newspaper columnist use it. It's certainly
not "just wrong," nor is it a particularly working class usage. I'd expect
to see "may" used more often in formal writing.

See the entry for "can and may" in *The American Heritage Book of English
Usage* at
http://www.bartleby.com/64/pages/page10.html

That's American usage, though. For all I know, British usage may be
different.

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David - 30 Dec 2003 02:24 GMT
> > <snip>
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> >
> > -- Enrico C  ~  No native speaker

> I consider it informal Standard American English--it would not be
> remarkable, for example, to see a newspaper columnist use it. It's
> certainly not "just wrong," nor is it a particularly working class
> usage. I'd expect to see "may" used more often in formal writing.

Whereas in English English (i.e. the English language of England), the
domicile of {R} excepted, "may" is entirely outmoded and "can" rules
supreme. Just one more step on the road to the pidgeon English to be
used in the uppermost floor of the tower of Babel.

> See the entry for "can and may" in *The American Heritage Book of
> English Usage* at http://www.bartleby.com/64/pages/page10.html

> That's American usage, though. For all I know, British usage may be
> different.

And English English different from that!

(Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language",
which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".)

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Richard Maurer - 30 Dec 2003 03:12 GMT
<< [David]
(Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language",
which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".)
[end quote] >>

   (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language",

With you so far...

   which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".)

Not that far, if meant to be exhaustive.  It is also shorthand
for the dominant language used in the USA, Canada, Australia, ...
Also shorthand for our mainstream language instead of technical jargon.
Also shorthand for our mainstream language instead of legal jargon.
Also shorthand for our mainstream language instead of bureaucratese.

However, if I were in England, I would agree that it is accurate
as far as it goes (if not also talking about English in other places).
So we only need a small modification
   (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language",
   which in turn is shorthand in England
   for "the language used in England".)

Though I doubt that there was any doubt about that.

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
David - 30 Dec 2003 09:40 GMT
> << [David] (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English
> language", which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in
> England".) [end quote] >>

>     (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English
>     language",

> With you so far...

>     which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".)

> Not that far, if meant to be exhaustive.  It is also shorthand for
> the dominant language used in the USA, Canada, Australia, ... Also
> shorthand for our mainstream language instead of technical jargon.
> Also shorthand for our mainstream language instead of legal jargon.
> Also shorthand for our mainstream language instead of bureaucratese.

Ah, yes. Of course folks in all those other places also use the
language of England, i.e. the English language, even though they are
not natives of England, i.e. not English natives.

Has it not struck you that the word English is an adjective pertaining
to England?

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Raymond S. Wise - 30 Dec 2003 10:45 GMT
> > << [David] (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English
> > language", which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Has it not struck you that the word English is an adjective pertaining
> to England?

If you're going to argue from etymology, then no, "English" does not pertain
to England. It comes from Old English "Englisc," meaning "pertaining to the
Angles, a Low German tribe," as _The Century Dictionary_ (
www.century-dictionary.com ) puts it. The name "England" came later: It's a
Middle English term.

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Enrico C - 30 Dec 2003 10:57 GMT
> If you're going to argue from etymology, then no, "English" does not pertain
> to England. It comes from Old English "Englisc," meaning "pertaining to the
> Angles, a Low German tribe," as _The Century Dictionary_ (
> www.century-dictionary.com ) puts it. The name "England" came later: It's a
> Middle English term.

All right... but, what has it got to do with "May / Can" ?  :)

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Einde O'Callaghan - 30 Dec 2003 12:21 GMT
>>If you're going to argue from etymology, then no, "English" does not pertain
>>to England. It comes from Old English "Englisc," meaning "pertaining to the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> All right... but, what has it got to do with "May / Can" ?  :)

This is Usenet - these things happen. We could just as well be
discussing modern art or pottery making or Donald Duck's Greatest Hits
at this stage in the thread. ;-)

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
David - 30 Dec 2003 20:13 GMT
> > Has it not struck you that the word English is an adjective
> > pertaining to England?

> If you're going to argue from etymology, then no, "English" does not
> pertain to England. It comes from Old English "Englisc," meaning
> "pertaining to the Angles, a Low German tribe," as _The Century
> Dictionary_ ( www.century-dictionary.com ) puts it. The name
> "England" came later: It's a Middle English term.

So what's that you're writing in? It's certainly not the language of
the Angles; it is (a variant of) the language of the English (people)
who are a mixture of Britons, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, French, and
just about every people who have ever wandered from their homelands,
and who are called English not because of their tongue but because of
their geographic and/or political status.

Who was arguing from etymology?

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Raymond S. Wise - 31 Dec 2003 04:41 GMT
> > > Has it not struck you that the word English is an adjective
> > > pertaining to England?
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Who was arguing from etymology?

You certainly appeared to be, with your comment "Has it not struck you that
the word English is an adjective pertaining to England?" Either the meaning
of "English" when speaking about the language pertains to the language
itself, with the history of the word being irrelevant--this is how linguists
would ordinarily see it, in order to avoid the etymological fallacy--or the
meaning of "English" when speaking about the language pertains to the
meaning of the etymon of the word, which meaning is not derived from
"England."

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David - 31 Dec 2003 09:47 GMT
> > Who was arguing from etymology?

> You certainly appeared to be, with your comment "Has it not struck
> you that the word English is an adjective pertaining to England?"
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> speaking about the language pertains to the meaning of the etymon of
> the word, which meaning is not derived from "England."

So, you postulate that "English" does not mean the same as "English"?

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Raymond S. Wise - 31 Dec 2003 15:14 GMT
> > > Who was arguing from etymology?
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> So, you postulate that "English" does not mean the same as "English"?

Yes, indeed. I am of English ancestry and I speak the English language. But
the first "English" means something very different from the second
"English."

A word's meaning is determined by its usage, not by its etymology. In
another thread in alt.usage.english , we have been discussing the words
"specie" and "species." Looked at from the point of view of etymology, these
represent the same word. Looked at from the point of view of meaning, they
are two different words. So it is with "English," although there is no
difference in form.

*The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language,* 4th ed. at
http://www.bartleby.com/61/61/E0146100.html

shows an additional sense of "English" in which there sometimes is a
different form. "English" with the following meaning in sports is sometimes
written uncapitalized:

"English [...] 5. also english a. The spin given to a propelled ball by
striking it on one side or releasing it with a sharp twist. b. Bodily
movement in an effort to influence the movement of a propelled object; body
English."

But even when left uncapitalized, the difference in meaning remains.

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David - 31 Dec 2003 17:50 GMT
[Snip]

> But even when left uncapitalized, the difference in meaning remains.

Ah, yes! When I think about "American", I can see what you mean.

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Raymond S. Wise - 31 Dec 2003 18:30 GMT
> [Snip]
>
> > But even when left uncapitalized, the difference in meaning remains.
>
> Ah, yes! When I think about "American", I can see what you mean.

An excellent example: "The prehistoric Americans" means something entirely
different from "the Americans" as the term is ordinarily used today. And for
still another meaning, consider that George Washington was born an American,
but not in the same sense that I was born an American.

The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to "Native
American." However, the increase in the use of the second term has made the
first term problematic, especially in speech.

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David - 31 Dec 2003 20:30 GMT
> > [Snip]
> >
> > > But even when left uncapitalized, the difference in meaning
> > > remains.
> >
> > Ah, yes! When I think about "American", I can see what you mean.

> An excellent example: "The prehistoric Americans" means something
> entirely different from "the Americans" as the term is ordinarily
> used today. And for still another meaning, consider that George
> Washington was born an American, but not in the same sense that I was
> born an American.

> The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to
> "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second
> term has made the first term problematic, especially in speech.

I was thinking rather of the purely adjectival use of the word. Seeing
the adjective thus used as a noun shorthand leads to all sorts of
problems for it takes on a life of its own far in excess of the
original intention. Take those north if the border, for example, who
accept gladly the 16th century shortening of "Scottish" when used as
the name of their vile national drink but are up in arms when it is
used as the common adjective. Curiously, they cleave to the 14th
century short form in preference to the full word.

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Mike Stevens - 01 Jan 2004 08:59 GMT
> The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to
> "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second
> term has made the first term problematic, especially in speech.

I think some of us right-pondians need a bit of explanation of that
distinction.

--
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Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
No man is an island.  So is Man.
Dave Fawthrop - 01 Jan 2004 09:21 GMT
| > The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to
| > "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second
| > term has made the first term problematic, especially in speech.
|
| I think some of us right-pondians need a bit of explanation of that
| distinction.

I sometimes think that American is as difficult as Mandarin :-(

Dave F
Molly Mockford - 01 Jan 2004 13:11 GMT
>> The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to
>> "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second
>> term has made the first term problematic, especially in speech.
>
>I think some of us right-pondians need a bit of explanation of that
>distinction.

I would assume that native Americans were born in the USA
(asyermightsay), whereas Native Americans had ancestors born in the
American continent all the way back to pre-history.
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Mike Stevens - 01 Jan 2004 17:07 GMT
> >> The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to
> >> "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> (asyermightsay), whereas Native Americans had ancestors born in the
> American continent all the way back to pre-history.

I see.  One of the them is a case of the "America"="USA" problem and the
other refers to the continent.  I do wish that bit of linguistic
confusion could be cleared up.

--
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web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
Don't you just hate rhetorical questions?
hsinatra - 01 Jan 2004 23:24 GMT
When I accompanied my friend Juan Hernadez, who holds dual citizenship, to
Mexico, he advised me not to say that I was an "American." The Mexicans,
Central Americans, and South Americans also consider themselves as
"Americans." To keep down the confusion we answered that we were Norte
Americanos de Esatdos Unidos. I guess it depends on the audience.

Hank

> > >> The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to
> > >> "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
> Don't you just hate rhetorical questions?
John Holmes - 02 Jan 2004 12:03 GMT
> When I accompanied my friend Juan Hernadez, who holds dual
> citizenship, to Mexico, he advised me not to say that I was an
> "American." The Mexicans, Central Americans, and South Americans also
> consider themselves as "Americans." To keep down the confusion we
> answered that we were Norte Americanos de Esatdos Unidos. I guess it
> depends on the audience.

Thanks, Hank. When I've mentioned that here before, some posters from
the US flat out refused to believe that it happens.

By the way, as you seem to be new to AUE, the custom here is to type
your reply comments *below* the bit that you are replying to, and to
remove any of the earlier comments that are no longer needed.

--
Regards
John
Donna Richoux - 03 Jan 2004 14:04 GMT
> > When I accompanied my friend Juan Hernadez, who holds dual
> > citizenship, to Mexico, he advised me not to say that I was an
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Thanks, Hank. When I've mentioned that here before, some posters from
> the US flat out refused to believe that it happens.

Well, stuh-rick-ly speaking, what we have here is someone reporting that
they were once warned by a friend not to use the word because it might
offend others.

Which is no different than someone posting here warning us not to use
the term because it might offend others.

What we need are more of those stories about somebody being and acted
offended when it *was* used. Didn't we hear about a street brawl, once?

Oh, hsinatra, what language were you speaking when you avoided calling
yourself American? Do you mean that you were speaking Spanish and were
advised not to say (merely) Americano?

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John Holmes - 03 Jan 2004 23:56 GMT
>>> When I accompanied my friend Juan Hernadez, who holds dual
>>> citizenship, to Mexico, he advised me not to say that I was an
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Which is no different than someone posting here warning us not to use
> the term because it might offend others.

What was denied on the previous occasion that I was thinking of was that
people of Central or South America call themselves "American" at all.
The above looks like fairly authoritative confirmation that they do. A
poster from Brazil said something along the same lines here a few months
ago.
--
Regards
John
MLC - 04 Jan 2004 10:25 GMT
Il 04/gen/2004 _John Holmes_ ha scritto:

>>>> When I accompanied my friend Juan Hernadez, who holds dual
>>>> citizenship, to Mexico, he advised me not to say that I was an
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> poster from Brazil said something along the same lines here a few months
> ago.

From Canadian people too I heard that this appropriation of the word
"American" from USA citizens is a bit upsetting.
Also here in Italy I note that among educated people there is a great
attention on saying "statunitensi" against "americani", and I think it is
fair.
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David - 04 Jan 2004 19:40 GMT
> Il 04/gen/2004 _John Holmes_ ha scritto:

> > What was denied on the previous occasion that I was thinking of was
> > that people of Central or South America call themselves "American"
> > at all. The above looks like fairly authoritative confirmation that
> > they do. A poster from Brazil said something along the same lines
> > here a few months ago.

> From Canadian people too I heard that this appropriation of the word
> "American" from USA citizens is a bit upsetting. Also here in Italy I
> note that among educated people there is a great attention on saying
> "statunitensi" against "americani", and I think it is fair.

I haven't come across any succinct English name for citizens of the
USA, so might I propose an abbreviation formed from the first two
letters of each of the three words: "an Unstam", "several Unstams", "an
Unstamian citizen"?

Alternatively, and forming a much better word, one might use the last
two from each word: "an Edescan", "several Edescans", "an Edescan
citizen". Yes, much better!

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Tony Cooper - 04 Jan 2004 22:31 GMT
>I haven't come across any succinct English name for citizens of the
>USA, so might I propose an abbreviation formed from the first two
>letters of each of the three words: "an Unstam", "several Unstams", "an
>Unstamian citizen"?

Sounds good.  Can we refer to you as a Unkigrbranian?
David - 04 Jan 2004 23:28 GMT
> >I haven't come across any succinct English name for citizens of the
> >USA, so might I propose an abbreviation formed from the first two
> >letters of each of the three words: "an Unstam", "several Unstams",
> >"an Unstamian citizen"?

> Sounds good.  Can we refer to you as a Unkigrbranian?

You can refer to me however you choose but I'm actually English. We
English have our own language and don't have to suffer the indignity of
using that of another country; so also have we a name and don't have to
suffer the even greater indignity of having to use that which is
generally applicable to all the other countries within not just one but
two entire continents, most of which actually do have their own name.

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Tony Cooper - 05 Jan 2004 03:48 GMT
>> >I haven't come across any succinct English name for citizens of the
>> >USA, so might I propose an abbreviation formed from the first two
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>generally applicable to all the other countries within not just one but
>two entire continents, most of which actually do have their own name.

So you are not a resident of the United Kingdom?  A small land mass
that is known - in parts - by various other names?  A place where the
residents have to suffer the indignity of being in a united kingdom
but with no residents of a country that is the kingdom of where ever
it is they live?  A country in which some residents recognize a
monarch that is the Queen of a different place?

Complicated, innit.
Andrew Davidson - 05 Jan 2004 12:39 GMT
> So you are not a resident of the United Kingdom?  A small land mass
> that is known - in parts - by various other names?  A place where the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> monarch that is the Queen of a different place?
> Complicated, innit.

Not that complicated - The United Kingdom is just that - A number of countries,
each independent and sovereign, but united under one King (or Queen). These
countries originally were England, Scotland, and Ireland. Since 1922 they are
England, Scotland and Northern Ireland (Southern Ireland or Eire having ceded
from the Union). Wales is not (unfortunately) an independent party to this
Union, but forms part of the English posession since it was conquered by Edward
I in the 13th century. However these days, Wales rights as an independent state
are also recognised (particularly since the formation of the regional
assemblies), thus the list of countries within the United Kingdom is usually now
given as England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.

Your sentence about "Queen of a different place" is confusing, and does not
describe any situation I recocognise within the UK.

Signature

Andrew Davidson

Tony Cooper - 05 Jan 2004 13:28 GMT
>> So you are not a resident of the United Kingdom?  A small land mass
>> that is known - in parts - by various other names?  A place where the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Your sentence about "Queen of a different place" is confusing, and does not
>describe any situation I recocognise within the UK.

I thank you for the explanation although I was well aware of all of
it.  My post was just a little spoofing.  A resident of any of the UK
countries other than England  recognizes a monarch that is Queen of a
different place.  She is called the Queen of England and not the Queen
of Scotland, or Wales, or.....   Before you explain, that too is a
spoof and I am aware of her full title.

The post is about as serious as the idea of a Peruvian thinking he is
an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence.
And that was the subject that generated my reply.
Andrew Davidson - 05 Jan 2004 14:13 GMT
> The post is about as serious as the idea of a Peruvian thinking he is
> an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence.
> And that was the subject that generated my reply.

From my point-of-view (Devon, England) - A Peruvian is just as much an American
as a Texan is. The Peruvian is a South American, the Texan is a North American.
In the same way, Poles and Italians are both Europeans. The fact that the USA
contains the word "America" in its name, and has thus developed a habit of
shortening that name to "America", does not negate the right of other dwellers
on that continent to also use the name.

Signature

Andrew Davidson

Donna Richoux - 05 Jan 2004 14:28 GMT
> > The post is about as serious as the idea of a Peruvian thinking he is
> > an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> thus developed a habit of shortening that name to "America", does not
> negate the right of other dwellers on that continent to also use the name.

Sure. They can use that meaning when they speak Spanish, and they can
even use that meaning when they speak English. Where the fur starts to
fly is if anyone tells citizens of the United States of America to stop
calling themselves Americans. We've been through that a few times on
a.u.e, and as a result wrote this summary, collectively, for our FAQ:

--------
American
--------

Should US citizens call themselves "Americans"? The fact is: they do.
And they call their country "America," among other terms. To modern
speakers of the English language, both in the US and elsewhere, these
are the most frequent meanings of the words "America" and "American."

However, to many people outside the USA, the name "America" (with
various spellings: Amerique, Amerika, etc.) can quite normally mean the
entire "New World." That tradition goes back to the days of the first
European explorers. We have heard complaints from time to time,
especially from native Spanish speakers, that the citizens of the United
States of America have commandeered the name, as if they were the only
ones in the Americas. These attempts to convince US residents to start
calling themselves something else, such as USonians or USans, in
deference to the other inhabitants of the landmass, usually lead only to
anger and bafflement, on both sides.

However, when explaining why they call themselves "American," those in
the US are hereby cautioned not to overstate the case and imply that any
other use of the word is wrong, impossible, or obsolete.  "American" has
indeed been used for a very long time, as an English word, to mean "an
inhabitant of, or pertaining to, the Americas." This meaning is
supported by all major dictionaries, although many of us encounter it
only rarely, in fixed combinations such as the American crocodile, the
Organization of American States, and the Pan-American Games.

[END QUOTE FROM FAQ]

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

R F - 05 Jan 2004 15:46 GMT
> From my point-of-view (Devon, England) - A Peruvian is just as much an American
> as a Texan is.

I'm not sure Texans consider themselves part of the USA, but okay...

> The Peruvian is a South American, the Texan is a North American.
> In the same way, Poles and Italians are both Europeans. The fact that the USA
> contains the word "America" in its name, and has thus developed a habit of
> shortening that name to "America", does not negate the right of other dwellers
> on that continent to also use the name.

This is a common Error:  the idea that "United States of America" came
first, and calling the people in what *became* the (initial part of the)
USA "Americans" came second.  Not so:  they were called "Americans" before
1776.

TFOTMI, "America" has more than one meaning. The USA-type of "American"
shouldn't object to the desire of the Peruvian (say) to call himself an
"American" when speaking English.  But, by the same Metrocard, no Peruvian
or European should object to a USA-type of American using "American" to
mean "of the US".  Non-Americans (that is, non-US-type Americans) should
endeavo(u)r to understand the US usage of "American", and not to angrily
and bitterly condemn it.

I've argued (in AUE) that "America" has a slightly different meaning from
"United States".  "The US" is the political entity, the polity, the
"state", the current official politico-legal structure.  "America" is the
*nation*, not the *state*:  the people, the land, a romantic-poetic view
of the people who happen to call themselves "Americans" in the US sense
and the "country" (not the "state") they call home.  It might be a little
bit like how "the UK" is a name that will not survive the abolition of the
monarchy, but "Britain" and "England" etc. :-) will remain.

In my view, "an American" in the US sense is broader than just the body of
American (more properly, US) citizens.  An immigrant to the US who is not
yet a citizen but who has come to identify closely with the people and
culture of the US (more properly of "America") is, in my book, an
"American".
Andrew Davidson - 05 Jan 2004 16:05 GMT
> > From my point-of-view (Devon, England) - A Peruvian is just as much an American
> > as a Texan is.
>
> I'm not sure Texans consider themselves part of the USA, but okay...

Yes, I thought that might be contentious.

> > The Peruvian is a South American, the Texan is a North American.
> > In the same way, Poles and Italians are both Europeans. The fact that the USA
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> USA "Americans" came second.  Not so:  they were called "Americans" before
> 1776.

True, but they were called "Americans" because they dwelt on the continent of
America, along with all the other inhabitants. Only later did they start to use
that term as if it might be exclusive to citizens of the USA.

> TFOTMI, "America" has more than one meaning. The USA-type of "American"
> shouldn't object to the desire of the Peruvian (say) to call himself an
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> of the people who happen to call themselves "Americans" in the US sense
> and the "country" (not the "state") they call home.

This all seems very reasonable to me. I think I agree with it. However, when I
say "America", I mean the continent. If I need to differentiate between parts of
that continent, I will use terms such as "USA", "Bolivia", "North America",
"South America", "Canada", etc.

> It might be a little
> bit like how "the UK" is a name that will not survive the abolition of the
> monarchy, but "Britain" and "England" etc. :-) will remain.

If I am asked "where are you from?", I reply "England". If I am asked for my
nationality, I say "British". If I am completing a Web form or other
documentation, the choice is normally "United Kingdom". Despite all of the
foregoing, I am very clear on one point: the country where I live is called
England.

I recall a lady I worked with in Glasgow (Scotland) who was learning German from
a cassette course. The lesson asked "Sind sie Deutsch", and she was required to
answer "Nein, ich bin Englander". She, quite rightly, responded "Nein, ich bin
Schottlanderin".

Signature

Andrew Davidson

Aaron J. Dinkin - 05 Jan 2004 20:44 GMT
> However, when I say "America", I mean the continent.

This here might be part of the source of confusion. To people in the U.S.
(I don't know about Canada), there is no continent called "America".
There is a continent called "North America", and a continent called
"South America", and together they are called "the Americas"; but they
are not referred to as "America" either individually or together.

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Andrew Davidson - 05 Jan 2004 20:57 GMT
> > However, when I say "America", I mean the continent.
> This here might be part of the source of confusion. To people in the U.S.
> (I don't know about Canada), there is no continent called "America".

That's fine for them.

> There is a continent called "North America", and a continent called
> "South America", and together they are called "the Americas";

By some.

> but they
> are not referred to as "America" either individually or together.

Yes they are. I refer to them as "America". Perhaps in my previous post I should
have written "when I say America, I mean the continents".

Signature

Andrew Davidson

Raymond S. Wise - 06 Jan 2004 09:40 GMT
> > On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:05:40 -0000, Andrew Davidson <andrew@cyber-home.net>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> By some.

I can't remember ever meeting a native speaker of American English who uses
the term "America" for the combination of North America and South America.
Aaron was speaking of *people in the US,* not about others. So your comment
"By some." appears to be incorrect, since I expect there are very few native
speakers of American English who use the term "America" in the way that you
use it. We say "the Americas," as Aaron indicated.

> > but they
> > are not referred to as "America" either individually or together.
>
> Yes they are. I refer to them as "America". Perhaps in my previous post I should
> have written "when I say America, I mean the continents".

But Aaron was talking about the usage of people in the US! You appear to
have entirely missed the point of his post.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 17:54 GMT
> "when I say America, I mean the continents".
> But Aaron was talking about the usage of people in the US! You appear to
> have entirely missed the point of his post.

You're right. I missed that Aaron had used the qualification "people in the U.S"
whereas Tony Cooper claims to speak for all the citizens of the world. I think
Aaron's distinction is most important, since clearly there is a difference in
usage between the US and others. I cannot question the usage of US citizens, and
I bow to your greater knowledge - but I also know that this is absolutely not
"universally recognized and accepted without question".

Signature

Andrew Davidson

Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2004 18:08 GMT
>> "when I say America, I mean the continents".
>> But Aaron was talking about the usage of people in the US! You appear to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>I bow to your greater knowledge - but I also know that this is absolutely not
>"universally recognized and accepted without question".

You will note the distinction between "universally recognized and
accepted without question" and "universally preferred".  If a person
says "I am an American" it would be universally recognized as a
statement that the person is from the United States.  It would be
accepted without question as a reference to a citizen of the United
States.  If any of your countrymen were to say that "I am going to
America on holiday", you'd be doing no more than playing silly buggers
if you asked him which of the South American countries he'd be
visiting.

There are some - as you - that would quibble and grouch about the
propriety of the statement, but they would not be confused about the
meaning of the statement.  In the most far distant land, a statement
that "I am an American" would be instantly understood and probably
elicit a reply like "You are?  I have a cousin in Chicago.  Do you
know him?"

I do not pretend to "speak for all citizens of the world" and Aaron
does not speak for all citizens of the US.  To state the obvious is
not to speak for all.
Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 18:18 GMT
>If a person
> says "I am an American" it would be universally recognized as a
> statement that the person is from the United States.

Not so.

> It would be
> accepted without question as a reference to a citizen of the United
> States.

Not so.

> If any of your countrymen were to say that "I am going to
> America on holiday", you'd be doing no more than playing silly buggers
> if you asked him which of the South American countries he'd be
> visiting.

Not so.

> There are some - as you - that would quibble and grouch about the
> propriety of the statement,

Many, from my experience.

>  but they would not be confused about the
> meaning of the statement.

Yes they would, or else they would understand something other than you have
implied.

> In the most far distant land, a statement
> that "I am an American" would be instantly understood and probably
> elicit a reply like "You are?  I have a cousin in Chicago.  Do you
> know him?"

Not so.

> I do not pretend to "speak for all citizens of the world"

Yes you do - see below.

> To state the obvious is
> not to speak for all.

To state that it is "obvious" when my random sample of 6 (UK) people all
questioned it, seems imperious.

Signature

Andrew Davidson

Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2004 22:30 GMT
>Not so.

>Not so.

>Not so.

>Not so.

>Yes you do - see below.

M:  Oh look, this isn't an argument.
A:   Yes it is.
M:   No it isn't. It's just contradiction.
A:   No it isn't.
M:  It is!
A:   It is not.
M:  Look, you just contradicted me.
A:   I did not.
M:  Oh you did!!
A:   No, no, no.
M:  You did just then.
A:   Nonsense!
M:  Oh, this is futile!
A:   No it isn't.
M:  I came here for a good argument.
A:   No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument.
M:  An argument isn't just contradiction.
A:   It can be.
M:  No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements
intended to establish a proposition.
A:   No it isn't.
M:  Yes it is! It's not just contradiction.
A:   Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M:  Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.'
A:   Yes it is!
M:   No it isn't!

A:   Yes it is!
M:  Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the
automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A:  No it isn't.
M:  It is.
A:  Not at all.
M:  Now look.
A: (Rings bell)  Good Morning.
M:  What?
A:   That's it. Good morning.
M:   I was just getting interested.
A:   Sorry, the five minutes is up.

>To state that it is "obvious" when my random sample of 6 (UK) people all
>questioned it, seems imperious.

Rubbish.  Your random sample is worthless when you don't explain how
the question was posed.  If you said something along the lines of "Is
'America' synonymous with 'the United States'?", or "Help me settle an
argument with a Yank." then you've alerted your sample that it may be
a trick question.  

To be fair, you must pose the question in a neutral manner.  Something
like "If you were to holiday in America, what sights would you want to
see?"  If the answer is the "the Grand Canyon" or "Disney World", then
the obvious assumption is that "America" is unambiguously synonymous
with "the United States".  If the answer is "Uxmal", or "the mouth of
the Amazon", then your argument is shored up.

The question then becomes if you can be unbiased in your presentation
of the question.  Your report of the UK news usage of "America" casts
doubt on this.
Richard Maurer - 05 Jan 2004 17:13 GMT
<< [R F]
This is a common Error:  the idea that "United States of America" came
first, and calling the people in what *became* the (initial part of the)
USA "Americans" came second.  Not so:  they were called "Americans" before
1776.
[end quote] >>

In the "before" time, they were American relative to the British Empire.
Letters to the king used the phrase "your American subjects".
It all made sense.  When the USA became a separate country,
people kept using "American", but there was no longer anything for
the term to be relative to.   200 years later, we still need a good nickname.

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Enrico C - 08 Jan 2004 01:50 GMT
<snip>
> It all made sense.  When the USA became a separate country,
> people kept using "American", but there was no longer anything for
> the term to be relative to.   200 years later, we still need a good nickname.

Usonians ?
;)

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usonian

Fup2 alt.usage.english

Signature

Enrico C  ~  No native speaker

Tony Cooper - 06 Jan 2004 02:51 GMT
>> The post is about as serious as the idea of a Peruvian thinking he is
>> an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>shortening that name to "America", does not negate the right of other dwellers
>on that continent to also use the name.

This comes up more frequently than sauerkraut.  Every once in a while
someone discovers that the United States is in the continent of North
America, that there are other countries in the continent of North
America, and that the continent to the south of North America also has
the word "America" in it.  They then start to crow that Peruvians,
Guatemalans, and Canadians have the same right to be called
"Americans" as do the residents of the United States.  The next step,
if you follow the familiar path, is to suggest that we be called
"USAians" or something equally ridiculous.

In actuality, it's a technically -if even marginally - correct
position even if it's completely without practical merit.  There is
nothing ambiguous about the terms "American" or "America".  The
meaning is universally recognized and accepted without question.
While Ecuadorians and Panamanians may have some murky "right" to be
called "Americans", it simply isn't done and would cause confusion.  

I suppose I shouldn't say "isn't done" because there are probably
seven or eight people in the world that actually do it.  They are far
less in number, though, than the members of the Flat Earth Society,
the believers that the moon landing was filmed in Hollywood, and
people who have actually sighted the Loch Ness monster.

If you follow the usual process of the people before you that have
insisted on the rights of Manitobians, Sonorians, and Mato Grossoians
to call themselves "Americans", you will next insist that you once had
a conversation with a man whose brother's employer's wife once
employed a gardener that was born in Tucumán and was greatly grieved
that he was not considered an American.

In another post on the same subject, you say  "However, when I
say "America", I mean the continent. If I need to differentiate
between parts of that continent, I will use terms such as "USA",
"Bolivia", "North America....".     If you do this in practice, and
not just in your mind, you will be met with nothing but confusion.
First, because it is generally accepted that there are two continents
with "America" in the name, and second because no one will have the
foggiest idea of the area you are referring to.  If you present
yourself at the Aserca Airlines desk and try to book a ticket to
America, you will probably be referred an airline that serves NYC.
They will not assume your destination to be Caracas.

Now, I will grant you that proclaiming that a Nova Scotian has full
rights and privileges to be called "American" is a good pub argument
if cricket or football discussions don't interest you.   It's
especially good if you include some table-thumping indignation about
Yanks usurping the language now that there are no more red indians to
kill.  It will help, though, if you don't mind people winking at each
other and sotto voce comments about "Old Davidson's on again about the
America/America  thing".

I certainly have no intent of discouraging you in calling Baffin
Islanders and Chileans "Americans".  It gives you a certain eccentric
charm that may cover an otherwise undistinguished personality.  And, I
certainly have no intent with arguing with your premise.  It's an
interesting little  idiosyncrasy that makes a quite good party trick.
Your only problem will be guiding the conversation around to the
subject so that you can say, in a Potteresquely Plonking Manner "The
Yanks are not the only ones deserving to be called Americans, you
know".
Andrew Davidson - 06 Jan 2004 04:04 GMT
> This comes up more frequently than sauerkraut.  Every once in a while
> someone discovers that the United States is in the continent of North
> America, that there are other countries in the continent of North
> America, and that the continent to the south of North America also has
> the word "America" in it.

Talk sense, for goodness' sake.

>They then start to crow that Peruvians,
> Guatemalans, and Canadians have the same right to be called
> "Americans" as do the residents of the United States.

Because they do.

> The next step,
> if you follow the familiar path, is to suggest that we be called
> "USAians" or something equally ridiculous.

No. That's doesn't follow. You can be Americans too (alongside the Peruvians).

> In actuality, it's a technically -if even marginally - correct
> position even if it's completely without practical merit.

Or "it's correct" for short.

> There is
> nothing ambiguous about the terms "American" or "America".  The
> meaning is universally recognized and accepted without question.

Clearly not - or we wouldn't even be discussing it here.

> While Ecuadorians and Panamanians may have some murky "right" to be
> called "Americans", it simply isn't done and would cause confusion.

Not "murky" - "absolute. It is done and it doesn't cause confusion.

> I suppose I shouldn't say "isn't done" because there are probably
> seven or eight people in the world that actually do it.

Interesting statistics - Your source please?

> They are far
> less in number, though, than the members of the Flat Earth Society,
> the believers that the moon landing was filmed in Hollywood, and
> people who have actually sighted the Loch Ness monster.

Talk sense, for goodness' sake.

> If you follow the usual process of the people before you that have
> insisted on the rights of Manitobians, Sonorians, and Mato Grossoians
> to call themselves "Americans", you will next insist that you once had
> a conversation with a man whose brother's employer's wife once
> employed a gardener that was born in Tucumán and was greatly grieved
> that he was not considered an American.

Err... !!!!  Talk sense, for goodness' sake.

> In another post on the same subject, you say  "However, when I
> say "America", I mean the continent. If I need to differentiate
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> with "America" in the name, and second because no one will have the
> foggiest idea of the area you are referring to.

I've got through just fine so far. I'm clear that there is "South America" and
"North America" - together they form the landmass known as "The Americas" or
"America" and near the top of that land mass is a group of inhabitants who think
they are alone on this planet (or at least behave that way).

>  If you present
> yourself at the Aserca Airlines desk and try to book a ticket to
> America, you will probably be referred an airline that serves NYC.
> They will not assume your destination to be Caracas.

Not so - I've done something very similar - I actually asked for my
destination - who requests an airline ticket to a continent?

> Now, I will grant you that proclaiming that a Nova Scotian has full
> rights and privileges to be called "American" is a good pub argument
> if cricket or football discussions don't interest you.

They don't.

>  It's
> especially good if you include some table-thumping indignation about
> Yanks usurping the language now that there are no more red indians to
> kill.

I thought that's where we were headed.

>It will help, though, if you don't mind people winking at each
> other and sotto voce comments about "Old Davidson's on again about the
> America/America  thing".

Never happened yet - the usual response is along the lines of "those f***ing
Yanks think they own the world".

> I certainly have no intent of discouraging you in calling Baffin
> Islanders and Chileans "Americans".

Good - because they are.

Signature

Andrew Davidson

Tony Cooper - 06 Jan 2004 04:40 GMT
>> This comes up more frequently than sauerkraut.  Every once in a while
>> someone discovers that the United States is in the continent of North
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Talk sense, for goodness' sake.

I greatly admire the way you pack so much meaning into "Talk
sense...".  In one short phrase you have bundled up "I don't quite
follow this because it's far too complex for a mind as rigid as mine",
and "It's not the way I see things.  Ergo, it must be wrong.", and
"Being an exceedingly stuffy sort, I disapprove of taking such a
serious matter so lightly, and this is my way of saying 'harumph!'".

>> The next step,
>> if you follow the familiar path, is to suggest that we be called
>> "USAians" or something equally ridiculous.
>
>No. That's doesn't follow. You can be Americans too (alongside the Peruvians).

Simply magnanimous of you.  

>> There is
>> nothing ambiguous about the terms "American" or "America".  The
>> meaning is universally recognized and accepted without question.
>
>Clearly not - or we wouldn't even be discussing it here.

Ah, but it's clearly so.  If I identified myself as "American", would
you have to look at the headers to determine that I'm not from Tierra
del Fuego?  Would there be any doubt whatsoever in your mind of my
nation of origin?  Any ambiguity?

>> I suppose I shouldn't say "isn't done" because there are probably
>> seven or eight people in the world that actually do it.
>
>Interesting statistics - Your source please?

My goodness!  Still room in that overly stuffed shirt for yet another
bromide?

>Never happened yet - the usual response is along the lines of "those f***ing
>Yanks think they own the world".

Yes.  Now we're at it.  
Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 17:29 GMT
[blah blah blah] then

>If I identified myself as "American", would
> you have to look at the headers to determine that I'm not from Tierra
> del Fuego?

Yes. Even then I'm not sure....

>Would there be any doubt whatsoever in your mind of my
> nation of origin?

Yes

> Any ambiguity?

Yes.

I listened to several news reports yesterday on the two main UK TV channels and
on two different radio stations. They all overwhelmingly used "US" or "United
States" to refer to the USA. There were five references to "America" - three of
these were discussing South American countries - one referred to events across
the entire American landmass - only one referred to the US.

I am happy to accept that your view re the meaning of "America" is the
prevailing one in the USA - however it is quite certainly not the prevailing
view in the UK - and I doubt that it prevails elsewhere.

I suspect our difference of opinion here has more to do with the fact that my
shirt was manufactured in England than whether it is stuffed or not.

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Andrew Davidson

Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2004 18:15 GMT
>I listened to several news reports yesterday on the two main UK TV channels and
>on two different radio stations. They all overwhelmingly used "US" or "United
>States" to refer to the USA. There were five references to "America" - three of
>these were discussing South American countries - one referred to events across
>the entire American landmass - only one referred to the US.

I question your accuracy in reporting this.  I listen to the BBC World
News on radio, and watch BBC America.  (Which is the name of the BBC
outlet in the United States.  It is not called "BBC North America
between the 50th parallel and the 23rd parallel).  They refer to the
"Americas" when they are referring to the non-America part of the
Americas.  "America" and "Americas" are quite different words.  
Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 19:33 GMT
> I listen to the BBC World
> News on radio, and watch BBC America.  (Which is the name of the BBC
> outlet in the United States.  It is not called "BBC North America
> between the 50th parallel and the 23rd parallel).  They refer to the
> "Americas" when they are referring to the non-America part of the
> Americas.

Because they are talking to Yanks, and they know they have to use simple
language.

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Andrew Davidson

Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2004 22:42 GMT
>> I listen to the BBC World
>> News on radio, and watch BBC America.  (Which is the name of the BBC
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Because they are talking to Yanks, and they know they have to use simple
>language.

The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that:  news
of the world broadcast to the world.  Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is
not altered for US consumption.
mUs1Ka - 07 Jan 2004 22:54 GMT
>>> I listen to the BBC World
>>> News on radio, and watch BBC America.  (Which is the name of the BBC
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> of the world broadcast to the world.  Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is
> not altered for US consumption.

She even changed the spelling of her name for US consumption?
Greater love hath no ...

m.
Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2004 23:22 GMT
>>>> I listen to the BBC World
>>>> News on radio, and watch BBC America.  (Which is the name of the BBC
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>She even changed the spelling of her name for US consumption?
>Greater love hath no ...

Yes,  It's widely known that American males don't know how to add the
possessive to names that end in "s".  I took a poll here in my house
and there wasn't a single male that could do it correctly.  
Donna Richoux - 07 Jan 2004 23:31 GMT
> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that:  news
> >> of the world broadcast to the world.  Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> possessive to names that end in "s".  I took a poll here in my house
> and there wasn't a single male that could do it correctly.  

There's no S in her name. Guess again.
Tony Cooper - 08 Jan 2004 00:49 GMT
>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that:  news
>> >> of the world broadcast to the world.  Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>There's no S in her name. Guess again.

Damn.  There's a whole buncha other people that think her name is JK
Rawling or Rawlings.  Googles right up there.  

Did I mention that I haven't read any of her books?  Or seen the
movies?
Charles Riggs - 08 Jan 2004 09:05 GMT
>>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that:  news
>>> >> of the world broadcast to the world.  Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Damn.  There's a whole buncha other people that think her name is JK
>Rawling or Rawlings.  Googles right up there.  

You have trouble, it seems, with apostrophes in general. "Google's",
so you'll know what I'm on about. That could not have been a typo on
your part.

>Did I mention that I haven't read any of her books?  Or seen the
>movies?

Mel Conway of Westport, a redneck's redneck, is another man proud of
his ignorance. He often brags he has never read a book. You two would
get along well.
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Tony Cooper - 08 Jan 2004 13:44 GMT
>>>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that:  news
>>>> >> of the world broadcast to the world.  Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>so you'll know what I'm on about. That could not have been a typo on
>your part.

"Googles" was not a typo.  I was verbing "Google".  Both "Rawling" and
"Rawlings" come up frequently if you Google them.
Charles Riggs - 09 Jan 2004 07:54 GMT
>>>>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that:  news
>>>>> >> of the world broadcast to the world.  Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>"Googles" was not a typo.  I was verbing "Google".  

Nope. You didn't use it as a verb. Your sentence, spelled out, could
only have been "Google is right up there". As usual when you get
stuck, you are weaseling.

>Both "Rawling" and
>"Rawlings" come up frequently if you Google them.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it?
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Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 08:04 GMT
>>>>>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that:  news
>>>>>> >> of the world broadcast to the world.  Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>only have been "Google is right up there". As usual when you get
>stuck, you are weaseling.

Try spelling it out "(It) googles right up there".  Your version does
not make sense.  I do make errors, but I usually make sense.

>>Both "Rawling" and
>>"Rawlings" come up frequently if you Google them.
>
>Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it?

Said the poacher in the King's forest.
Charles Riggs - 10 Jan 2004 05:25 GMT
>>>>>>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that:  news
>>>>>>> >> of the world broadcast to the world.  Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>Try spelling it out "(It) googles right up there".  Your version does
>not make sense.  I do make errors, but I usually make sense.

You never cease to amaze me by your thick-headedness.  You didn't
write your phrase with an "It". It'd be an oddball sentence if you
had, but I wouldn't have commented. "Google is right up there" is
informal English for "This search engine gives results in line with
what a number of other people think about her name". Anyone even
vaguely familiar with English in its many varieties will see that. But
you are so insecure you rarely admit it when you've made an error, not
even one as tiny as this one.
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Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 06:57 GMT
>>>>>>>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that:  news
>>>>>>>> >> of the world broadcast to the world.  Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>you are so insecure you rarely admit it when you've made an error, not
>even one as tiny as this one.

Whatever, Charles.  Think about what putting a word in parenthesis
means in writing an explanation, and then review your statement "You
didn't write...".  It's an implied "it".  Like saying "Goes like a
banshee".  The "it" or "the car" is implied.

Oh, there it is again.  "Like saying..." has the implied "It is like
saying....".  You'll figure it out eventually.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 Jan 2004 00:23 GMT
> >>>"Googles" was not a typo.  I was verbing "Google".  
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> You never cease to amaze me by your thick-headedness.  You didn't
> write your phrase with an "It".

For what it's worth, Charles, when I first saw it, I read it as Tony
says he intended it.  Made sense at the time.  Still does.  Reads fine
to me.  Often drop the subject myself.

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Charles Riggs - 12 Jan 2004 05:15 GMT
>For what it's worth, Charles, when I first saw it, I read it as Tony
>says he intended it.  Made sense at the time.  Still does.  Reads fine
>to me.  Often drop the subject myself.

The above is as clear as a mountain stream. People seldom have any
problem with the way you express yourself. Why should they? You know
what you're doing, C**per doesn't.
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 09 Jan 2004 00:45 GMT
> Damn.  There's a whole buncha other people that think her name is JK
> Rawling or Rawlings.  Googles right up there.  

You seem to have been kept long enough on tenterhooks; the poor woman's
surname is Rowling (with an 'o', not an 'a').

NEVER rely upon Google for correct spellings of ANYTHING: the problem
nowadays is that with an increasingly illiterate pool of web authors
(that have never learnt to spell, nor had their errors corrected),
thousands of articles exist with incorrect spellings of just about
anything.

So if you Google for a word, and misspell it, you're probably still able
to find it.

Example: a few years ago a colleague had to choose a password for a
system, and tell a number of authorized personnel that password so that
they could all access a shared account.  He told me "the password is
'doppelganger'"; but when I used that I could not get into the account.
He then demonstrated that he COULD log in; eventually, by comparing
keystrokes, he turned out to have defined the password as 'doppleganger'.

When I asked him how he came to make this mistake, he admitted that he'd
been unsure of the spelling, but had put in to Google what he thought of
as the correct form and Google had confirmed his version with thousands
of hits.  Indeed, Googling for the correct spelling at that time produced
only about 20% more hits (which suggests that there are an _awful_ lot of
people that are unable to spell the word, and yet are unaware of that
limitation, and put the misspelt word out for all the world to see on a
web page).  

[I've just repeated the exercise: the misspelling gets 19,700 hits,
whilst the correct one has 67,900, so much better than on the previous
occasion.  It may be that because Google now says "Did you mean
doppelganger" when the incorrect spelling is inserted that more authors
have managed to find the correct spelling and use it: that feature wasn't
present on Google in the timeframe mentioned above.]

However the more important lesson is that neither he nor you should rely
upon Google for anything like this: he should have looked in a
dictionary, and you should have looked in a library catalogue (or even on
Amazon) since people whose lives revolve around handling books usually
ARE capable of spelling authors' names correctly.

Still, I don't suppose someone who is so ignorant of the English language
that they write (in a later posting) "may of" for "may have" is likely to
take any notice of this advice :-(

IN SHORT, the Web is NOT the only place to find information: treat with
scepticism anything you do find there, preferably cross-checking with
more traditional information sources.

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Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 07:43 GMT
>> Damn.  There's a whole buncha other people that think her name is JK
>> Rawling or Rawlings.  Googles right up there.  
>
>You seem to have been kept long enough on tenterhooks; the poor woman's
>surname is Rowling (with an 'o', not an 'a').

Hey!  I really appreciate that.   I probably would not of been able to
figure that out without your guidance.  But, "poor"?  She's off the
dole now, you know.  I read somewhere she's earned something over 750
million pounds from her books.  How much is that in real money?

>NEVER rely upon Google for correct spellings of ANYTHING: the problem
>nowadays is that with an increasingly illiterate pool of web authors
>(that have never learnt to spell, nor had their errors corrected),
>thousands of articles exist with incorrect spellings of just about
>anything.

Again, my thanks and appreciation.  It helps me a great deal when you
capitalize for emphasis.  I don't take "never" or "anything" too
seriously unless they are in full caps.

>When I asked him how he came to make this mistake, he admitted that he'd
>been unsure of the spelling, but had put in to Google what he thought of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>limitation, and put the misspelt word out for all the world to see on a
>web page).  

I really wish you wouldn't of written "_awful_".  You set your style
of emphasis earlier in the post with "NEVER" and "ANYTHING".  Then,
you switched styles and went with the "_   _" thingies.  Here's poor
me all distracted by trying to figure out if full caps or "_  _"
thingies indicate the more emphatic emphasis.  

>Still, I don't suppose someone who is so ignorant of the English language
>that they write (in a later posting) "may of" for "may have" is likely to
>take any notice of this advice :-(

I gave you a couple more "of"s to play with above.  Sicced 'em on you,
as it were.

>IN SHORT, the Web is NOT the only place to find information: treat with
>scepticism anything you do find there, preferably cross-checking with
>more traditional information sources.

Damn!  There you go again.  The style changes are making me dizzy.
And, I can't figure out why you emphasize "IN".  I really think that
should be "In SHORT...." or "In _short_.....".  

ObAUE:  That "ignorant of the English language" bothers me. (Oh, not
because what's-his-face here called me "ignorant'.  That just rolls
off.)   The "language" part bothers me.  It seems to me that I made an
error in usage and not an error in language.   An error in language
would - it seems to me - be the use of a completely inappropriate word
thinking that the word is the appropriate word in the context.  The
use of "of" instead of "have" - and my all-time favorite:  "that"
instead of "who" - would be usage errors.  No?
David - 09 Jan 2004 09:32 GMT
> >> Damn.  There's a whole buncha other people that think her name is
> >> JK Rawling or Rawlings.  Googles right up there.  
> >
> >You seem to have been kept long enough on tenterhooks; the poor
> >woman's surname is Rowling (with an 'o', not an 'a').

> Hey!  I really appreciate that.   I probably would not of been able to
> figure that out without your guidance.  But, "poor"?  She's off the
> dole now, you know.  I read somewhere she's earned something over 750
> million pounds from her books.  How much is that in real money?

[Snip]

Are you a United States of American? In other parts of the English
speaking world, the word "poor" does have meanings other than financial.

Oh, and please try to use "have" instead of "of" where applicable.

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David - 09 Jan 2004 09:35 GMT
[Snip]

> ObAUE:  That "ignorant of the English language" bothers me. (Oh, not
> because what's-his-face here called me "ignorant'.  That just rolls
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> use of "of" instead of "have" - and my all-time favorite:  "that"
> instead of "who" - would be usage errors.  No?

You claim not to be ignorant of the English language but ignorant of
the usage of the English language?

How droll.

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Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 14:32 GMT
>[Snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>How droll.

David,  perhaps you could you could link up with someone as a "reading
buddy" and - between the two of you - work out what is actually said
in the posts you reply to.  In the above paragraph, I don't refute
being ignorant of either the language or of usage. Read closely, or
with assistance, and you will see that I have just questioned which
particular form of ignorance I was guilty of in my post.  

I'll combine replies here and respond  to the comment in your other
post wherein you said:

>Are you a United States of American? In other parts of the English
>speaking world, the word "poor" does have meanings other than financial.

We have progressed over here.  We are capable of responding at more
than one level.  I didn't have a long, tedious anecdote to relate so
my contribution was to demonstrate that the word "poor" does have
other meanings.

>Oh, and please try to use "have" instead of "of" where applicable.

Another place a reading buddy will be helpful for you is the spotting
of drolleries even if presented with some subtlety.  You might have
noted that later in the post I wrote:

>I gave you a couple more "of"s to play with above.  Sicced 'em on you, as it were.
David - 09 Jan 2004 16:18 GMT
[Snip]

> >Oh, and please try to use "have" instead of "of" where applicable.

> Another place a reading buddy will be helpful for you is the spotting
> of drolleries even if presented with some subtlety.  You might have
> noted that later in the post I wrote:

> >I gave you a couple more "of"s to play with above.  Sicced 'em on
> >you, as it were.

Yes, I found the post quite nauseant, as well.

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Gwilym Calon - 09 Jan 2004 16:54 GMT
> I read somewhere she's earned something over 750
> million pounds from her books.  How much is that in real money?

That's 750 million pounds

:-)
----------------
GC
David - 09 Jan 2004 20:01 GMT
> > I read somewhere she's earned something over 750
> > million pounds from her books.  How much is that in real money?

> That's 750 million pounds

> :-)

I think Mr Cooper wanted to know how much that would be in Euro.

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Skitt - 09 Jan 2004 21:16 GMT
>>> I read somewhere she's earned something over 750
>>> million pounds from her books.  How much is that in real money?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> I think Mr Cooper wanted to know how much that would be in Euro.

I think Mr. Cooper was pulling someone's chain.
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Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 03:13 GMT
>>>> I read somewhere she's earned something over 750
>>>> million pounds from her books.  How much is that in real money?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>I think Mr. Cooper was pulling someone's chain.

I distinctly heard a "clank".  Sometimes it's just too easy.
Gwilym Calon - 10 Jan 2004 22:07 GMT
> I distinctly heard a "clank".

A yanker clanker.

Duw Duw

---------------
GC
mUs1Ka - 10 Jan 2004 23:08 GMT
>> I distinctly heard a "clank".
>
> A yanker clanker.
>
> Duw Duw

Is that dyoo dyoo, or doo doo?
m.
David - 11 Jan 2004 01:06 GMT
> >> I distinctly heard a "clank".
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> >
> Is that dyoo dyoo, or doo doo?

No, it was distinctly "Duw Duw".

Thank God for the Welsh!

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mUs1Ka - 11 Jan 2004 01:12 GMT
>>>> I distinctly heard a "clank".
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Thank God for the Welsh!

It can not be *distinctly* Duw, Duw. It is pronounced differently in North
and South Wales (roughly).

m.
David - 11 Jan 2004 01:44 GMT
> >>>> I distinctly heard a "clank".
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >
> > Thank God for the Welsh!

> It can not be *distinctly* Duw, Duw. It is pronounced differently in
> North and South Wales (roughly).

Is it really? Well, that is no surprise considering that my daughter
has lived these past eight years or so in Abertawe since hightailing it
from the West Riding for her university course. When she visits at
Xmas, we notice a distinct Southern Welsh coloration to her
pronunciation which, if truth be told, probably is as distinct from the
North Welsh accent of Penmaenmawr with which I, as a virgin lad in the
'60s, was indoctrinated, not only by the local vicar and his wife, who
hailed from that worthy Irish sea holiday resort and slate mine, but by
a bevy of summertime Penmaenmawr lasses, who, upon shingle and druid
circle alike, impressed their poetic charm (roughly).

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Gwilym Calon - 09 Jan 2004 21:31 GMT
> I think Mr Cooper wanted to know how much that would be in Euro.

No. He said "real money".

----------------
GC
David - 09 Jan 2004 22:49 GMT
> > I think Mr Cooper wanted to know how much that would be in Euro.

> No. He said "real money".

But the Spanish use the Euro now.

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Mike Stevens - 10 Jan 2004 00:55 GMT
> ObAUE:  That "ignorant of the English language" bothers me. (Oh, not
> because what's-his-face here called me "ignorant'.  That just rolls
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> use of "of" instead of "have" - and my all-time favorite:  "that"
> instead of "who" - would be usage errors.  No?

No.  "Of" is entirely the wrong word in that context  -  wrong part of
speech.
And stylistically it makes you sound cloth-eared.  It's a common mistake
and occurs very frequently among Londoners, who, in my experience, are
appalling at listening to what anyone says  -  even themselves. (And I'm
one, by ancestry and long-time residence, although not by upbringing).
I think the "of" usage comes from, for example, "could have" being
transferred to "could've" (which is acceptable not only in speech but
also in informal writing) which lazy listeners can't tell from "could
of".  If they actually *listened* they'd hear a different stress-pattern
between "could've" and could of".

My wife used to teach English to children for whom it wasn't their home
language.  When asked if she found it particularly difficult, her
standard reply was "it's a damn sight easier than trying to teach
Londoners to speak English."

--
Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
Old teachers never die, they simply lose their class.

--
Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
Don't you just hate rhetorical questions?
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 07:29 GMT
>> ObAUE:  That "ignorant of the English language" bothers me. (Oh, not
>> because what's-his-face here called me "ignorant'.  That just rolls
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>No.  "Of" is entirely the wrong word in that context  -  wrong part of
>speech.

You misunderstand.  I don't disagree at all that "of" was used
incorrectly.  What I am questioning is if it's an error in usage or an
error in language.

I would consider an error in language to be an error where a word with
the wrong meaning is used.  For example, "It was an amenably." is a
sentence with an error in language.  A word with the wrong meaning was
used.  An example of an error in usage would be "It was a anomaly".  

An error in language changes meaning.  Or, at least, requires the
reader to substitute to grasp meaning.  An error in usage does not
change meaning.  It may cause distraction to the reader, but it does
not require substitution to be understood.

The OP said that I was "ignorant of the English language".  That may
be, but I don't see this as an appropriate description of the error.
I think it should have been "ignorant of English usage".  That is a
far more apt description of my writing.  
Enrico C - 10 Jan 2004 08:03 GMT
<snip>

>>> use of "of" instead of "have"

<snip>

> The OP said that I was "ignorant of the English language".  That may
> be, but I don't see this as an appropriate description of the error.
> I think it should have been "ignorant of English usage".  That is a
> far more apt description of my writing.

Or, you are neither, and it was just an absent-minded slip in
spelling? :))

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Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 09:01 GMT
><snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>Or, you are neither, and it was just an absent-minded slip in
>spelling? :))

Nah.  I actually talk that way.  
David - 10 Jan 2004 09:30 GMT
> Nah.  I actually talk that way.  

That's obvious.

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CyberCypher - 10 Jan 2004 08:22 GMT
Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com> wrote on 10 Jan 2004:

>>> ObAUE:  That "ignorant of the English language" bothers me. (Oh,
>>> not because what's-his-face here called me "ignorant'.  That
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> incorrectly.  What I am questioning is if it's an error in usage
> or an error in language.

All language-related errors are generally "errors in/of language".
It's too vague a term to mean anything worth saying or talking about,
which is why there are concrete caetgories of errors: usage, grammar,
style, diction, etc.

> I would consider an error in language to be an error where a word
> with the wrong meaning is used.

That is called an error in _word choice_ (sometimes called "diction"
["1. Choice and use of words in speech or writing." AHD4])

> For example, "It was an amenably." is a sentence with an
> error in language.  A word with the wrong meaning was used.

This is a word-choice error, a diction error. It is, of course, a
language error (ie, an error in language).

> An example of an error in usage would
> be "It was a anomaly".  

Yes, and that is also a language error.

> An error in language changes meaning.  Or, at least, requires the
> reader to substitute to grasp meaning.  An error in usage does not
> change meaning.  It may cause distraction to the reader, but it
> does not require substitution to be understood.

Not necessarily. You are creating and stipulating your own definition
of the phrase "an error in language". Usage errors, diction errors,
grammatical errors, and other kinds of language errors can change or
distort meaning, so your definition falls short of being accurate.

> The OP said that I was "ignorant of the English language".  That
> may be, but I don't see this as an appropriate description of the
> error. I think it should have been "ignorant of English usage".
> That is a far more apt description of my writing.  

If one is ignorant of how the language is properly used --- and I'm
not being pedantic here, because the usage error in question is a
common and even undisputed one, and the correct usage is one that
everyone, not only the literati, is expected to know --- then one can
be described as being "ignorant of the language"; I would agree that
it is too strong a criticism of what is otherwise normal English
usage. But the point of Brian {Hamilton Kelly}'s criticism, I'm
fairly certain, is that if you don't know the correct spellings
("would've" and "could've"), then your credibility as someone who
comments on English usage is seriously called into question.

This particular usage error is different from the other usage you are
criticized for, "people that" versus "people who", because the former
is a common usage and is often used even by high-level writers, so
criticism for that usage is always an expression of the critic's
personal bias. "would of" and "could of" for "would've" and
"could've" are just plain dead wrong.

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Aaron J. Dinkin - 11 Jan 2004 00:37 GMT
> I think the "of" usage comes from, for example, "could have" being
> transferred to "could've" (which is acceptable not only in speech but
> also in informal writing) which lazy listeners can't tell from "could
> of".  If they actually *listened* they'd hear a different stress-pattern
> between "could've" and could of".

I disagree. In particular, I think that "of" is very usually minimally
stressed, and when it is it's indistinguishable from minimally stressed
"have" (i.e., "-'ve"). When there is some stress on "of", it sounds
different from "-'ve"; but "could of" and "could've" can easily sound
identical.

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
David - 11 Jan 2004 01:46 GMT
> > I think the "of" usage comes from, for example, "could have" being
> > transferred to "could've" (which is acceptable not only in speech
> > but also in informal writing) which lazy listeners can't tell from
> > "could of".  If they actually *listened* they'd hear a different
> > stress-pattern between "could've" and could of".

> I disagree. In particular, I think that "of" is very usually
> minimally stressed, and when it is it's indistinguishable from
> minimally stressed "have" (i.e., "-'ve"). When there is some stress
> on "of", it sounds different from "-'ve"; but "could of" and
> "could've" can easily sound identical.

With the correct amount of stress, "kiss my" and "donkey" could sound
identical.

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mUs1Ka - 07 Jan 2004 23:33 GMT
>>>>> I listen to the BBC World
>>>>> News on radio, and watch BBC America.  (Which is the name of the
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> possessive to names that end in "s".  I took a poll here in my house
> and there wasn't a single male that could do it correctly.

???
Try again.

m.
Charles Riggs - 08 Jan 2004 09:05 GMT
>>> I listen to the BBC World
>>> News on radio, and watch BBC America.  (Which is the name of the BBC
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>of the world broadcast to the world.  Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is
>not altered for US consumption.

What's the BBC World News? To my knowledge, it is not broadcast in the
UK. I watch BBC news broadcasts daily and we don't get your version of
it in Ireland.

With the sole exception of football games and the PBS broadcasts, the
best of which originates in either the UK or Canada, TV in America is
sh.t -- too many ads, too little content. I like many things American,
but their TV is bottom on my list. Oh, and their bread: yuck.

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Tony Cooper - 08 Jan 2004 13:50 GMT
>>>> I listen to the BBC World
>>>> News on radio, and watch BBC America.  (Which is the name of the BBC
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>UK.  > I watch BBC news broadcasts daily and we don't get your version of
>it in Ireland.

BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK.  You are not in the UK,
Charles.  They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s.  You may of
heard of it.
David - 08 Jan 2004 15:09 GMT
> BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK.  You are not in the UK,
> Charles.  They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s.  You may of
> heard of it.

It might be acceptable in a.u.e but in u.c.l.e we prefer "you may have
heard of it", or even "you might have heard of it".

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Robert Bannister - 09 Jan 2004 00:55 GMT
>>BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK.  You are not in the UK,
>>Charles.  They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s.  You may of
>>heard of it.
>
> It might be acceptable in a.u.e but in u.c.l.e we prefer "you may have
> heard of it", or even "you might have heard of it".

I think you should get under the Cone of Silence.

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David - 09 Jan 2004 09:27 GMT
> >>BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK.  You are not in the UK,
> >>Charles.  They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s.  You may
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> I think you should get under the Cone of Silence.

Pray tell me what that is?

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Skitt - 09 Jan 2004 21:11 GMT
>> David wrote:

>>>> BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK.  You are not in the UK,
>>>> Charles.  They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s.  You may
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Pray tell me what that is?

Let Google tell you.
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David - 09 Jan 2004 22:51 GMT
> >> David wrote:
>  
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> >
> > Pray tell me what that is?

> Let Google tell you.

I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr
Bannister for it was he who suggested it.

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Skitt - 09 Jan 2004 23:09 GMT
>>>>>> BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK.  You are not in the
>>>>>> UK, Charles.  They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr
> Bannister for it was he who suggested it.

Just trying to help.  The write-up accessible with Google (first hit, no
less)has pictures and all.  Are you patterning yourself after YJ?
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Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 03:21 GMT
>>>>>>> BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK.  You are not in the
>>>>>>> UK, Charles.  They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>Just trying to help.  The write-up accessible with Google (first hit, no
>less)has pictures and all.  Are you patterning yourself after YJ?

Perhaps his shoe phone provider is down.  Or, he dropped it and
smershed it.
David - 10 Jan 2004 09:33 GMT
> >>>>>> BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK.  You are not in the
> >>>>>> UK, Charles.  They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> > I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr
> > Bannister for it was he who suggested it.

> Just trying to help.  The write-up accessible with Google (first hit,
> no less)has pictures and all.  Are you patterning yourself after YJ?

Firstly, I don't know who YJ is.

Lastly, whatever Google presents might not be what was intended by Mr
Bannister. Instead of having no idea, which might be bad, I might end
up with the wrong idea, which would be worse.

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Skitt - 10 Jan 2004 19:04 GMT
>>>>>>>> BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK.  You are not in the
>>>>>>>> UK, Charles.  They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Firstly, I don't know who YJ is.

Shall I claim my £5 now, or wait?

> Lastly, whatever Google presents might not be what was intended by Mr
> Bannister. Instead of having no idea, which might be bad, I might end
> up with the wrong idea, which would be worse.

I'm sure now.  You *are* YJ, and I claim my £5.
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David - 10 Jan 2004 20:21 GMT
> > Firstly, I don't know who YJ is.

> Shall I claim my £5 now, or wait?

> > Lastly, whatever Google presents might not be what was intended by
> > Mr Bannister. Instead of having no idea, which might be bad, I
> > might end up with the wrong idea, which would be worse.

> I'm sure now.  You *are* YJ, and I claim my £5.

No, I'm not YJ if YJ is a person; if YJ is the abbreviation of a
description then, as I do not know what it means, I might be YJ.

I am David. On Usenet, I have always been david@dacha (although the
dacha has moved providers), even when I posted regularly to aue for a
while before that became too side-splitting to continue.

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Of nought do I speak...

Dave Fawthrop - 10 Jan 2004 20:50 GMT
| > > Firstly, I don't know who YJ is.
|
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
| No, I'm not YJ if YJ is a person; if YJ is the abbreviation of a
| description then, as I do not know what it means, I might be YJ.

http://www.jeepyj.net/                       A Jeep?        
http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/ps/yj/        Youth Justice?    
http://www.decipher.com/youngjedi/           Young Jedi?
http://www.yogajournal.com/views/toc_3.cfm   Yoga Journal?
http://yj.shueisha.co.jp/                    Young Jump?
http://www.mm-inet.com/526946.shtml          Sun top for a car?

Nah!  OK I give up ;-)

BTW I have known David.dacha on the web for years

Dave F
Skitt - 10 Jan 2004 21:16 GMT
>>>> Firstly, I don't know who YJ is.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> BTW I have known David.dacha on the web for years

The above posts have been crossposted to alt.usage.english (AUE), and YJ
(short for Young Joey) is a nickname for a poster (DE781) there, as anyone
reading AUE's posts and posting to it should know.

I will readily concede that, without being familiar with the style an
content of YJ's posts, one can't have much of an idea what I'm talking
about.  Never mind, then.
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David - 11 Jan 2004 01:12 GMT
> >>>> Firstly, I don't know who YJ is.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> >
> > BTW I have known David.dacha on the web for years

> The above posts have been crossposted to alt.usage.english (AUE), and
> YJ (short for Young Joey) is a nickname for a poster (DE781) there,
> as anyone reading AUE's posts and posting to it should know.

> I will readily concede that, without being familiar with the style an
> content of YJ's posts, one can't have much of an idea what I'm
> talking about.  Never mind, then.

Aw, c'mon Skitt, you and I crossed swards in those grassy days on aue a
year or two ago. It pains me that I am forgot in so short a time.

Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery once
again.

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Skitt - 11 Jan 2004 01:24 GMT
>> I will readily concede that, without being familiar with the style an
>> content of YJ's posts, one can't have much of an idea what I'm
>> talking about.  Never mind, then.
>
> Aw, c'mon Skitt, you and I crossed swards in those grassy days on aue
> a year or two ago. It pains me that I am forgot in so short a time.

Well, as there were no swords involved, who's to remember?

> Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery once
> again.

Why would you want to do that?
Signature

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David - 11 Jan 2004 02:29 GMT
> > Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery
> > once again.

> Why would you want to do that?

With emphysema, one might want to do anything!

Strange thing: Just over a year ago, I would have argued down anyone
that smoking was part of who I was; just over a year later, it is as
alien an activity as attempting to write swahili on usenet.

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Skitt - 11 Jan 2004 03:21 GMT
>>> Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery
>>> once again.
>
>> Why would you want to do that?
>
> With emphysema, one might want to do anything!

I'm sorry to hear that.  I hope that it's still not very serious.

> Strange thing: Just over a year ago, I would have argued down anyone
> that smoking was part of who I was; just over a year later, it is as
> alien an activity as attempting to write swahili on usenet.

I was lucky to quit (more thn 13 years ago) before I incurred any serious
damage.  My wife had just died from a condition caused by heavy smoking and
drinking.
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David - 11 Jan 2004 11:51 GMT
> >>> Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery
> >>> once again.
> >
> >> Why would you want to do that?
> >
> > With emphysema, one might want to do anything!

> I'm sorry to hear that.  I hope that it's still not very serious.

50% loss of lung function.

> > Strange thing: Just over a year ago, I would have argued down
> > anyone that smoking was part of who I was; just over a year later,
> > it is as alien an activity as attempting to write swahili on usenet.

> I was lucky to quit (more thn 13 years ago) before I incurred any
> serious damage.  My wife had just died from a condition caused by
> heavy smoking and drinking.

Sorry to hear that.

My mother had her legs removed, due to smoking, before she died (as did
her father before her), so maybe getting this -- and stopping -- will
save me the bother of going out on the stump.

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Dave Fawthrop - 11 Jan 2004 08:01 GMT
| > Aw, c'mon Skitt, you and I crossed swards in those grassy days on aue
| > a year or two ago. It pains me that I am forgot in so short a time.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
|
| Why would you want to do that?

Pro Bono Publico?

Dave F
Dave Fawthrop - 11 Jan 2004 07:59 GMT
| In article <btpq2k$a1j7g$1@ID-61580.news.uni-berlin.de>, Skitt

| Aw, c'mon Skitt, you and I crossed swards in those grassy days on aue a
| year or two ago. It pains me that I am forgot in so short a time.
|
| Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery once
| again.

Need any help David?
This one needs taking down a notch or two.
Hmmmmm that is impossible.

Dave F
David - 11 Jan 2004 11:48 GMT
> | In article <btpq2k$a1j7g$1@ID-61580.news.uni-berlin.de>, Skitt

> | Aw, c'mon Skitt, you and I crossed swards in those grassy days on
> | aue a year or two ago. It pains me that I am forgot in so short a
> | time.
> |
> | Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery
> | once again.

> Need any help David?
> This one needs taking down a notch or two.
> Hmmmmm that is impossible.

Nah, Skitt's all right, really.

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Skitt - 11 Jan 2004 21:35 GMT
>>> Aw, c'mon Skitt, you and I crossed swards in those grassy days on
>>> aue a year or two ago. It pains me that I am forgot in so short a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Nah, Skitt's all right, really.

Why, thank you, kind Sir.  I try to deserve that evaluation while also being
truthful and calling a spade a spade.  It's not easy, as my intentions are
often misunderstood by those who are oversensitive.
Signature

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Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 01:38 GMT
>I will readily concede that, without being familiar with the style an
>content of YJ's posts, one can't have much of an idea what I'm talking
>about.  Never mind, then.

Damn, Skitt.  I slipped in an "of" that should have been a "have" and
the twisted-knicker alarms went off all over the place.   I fear what
will happen because of your dropped "d".  
Skitt - 11 Jan 2004 01:52 GMT
>> I will readily concede that, without being familiar with the style an
>> content of YJ's posts, one can't have much of an idea what I'm
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the twisted-knicker alarms went off all over the place.   I fear what
> will happen because of your dropped "d".

Oh, I don't know -- if an occasional letter is all I drop, I'm not too
concerned about the possible consequences.  If you are interested, that
sentence was altogether different when I started to write it, and then, as
it usually happens, something goes awry in the hurried editing, compounded
by the fact that I hate to read what I have written.

Y'all are lucky that I write anything understandable ever.
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Robert Lieblich - 11 Jan 2004 01:56 GMT
[ ... ]

> Y'all are lucky that I write anything understandable ever.

A statement impossible to challenge without creating a paradox.

Well done, Skitt.

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This sentence is false

David - 11 Jan 2004 02:31 GMT
> >I will readily concede that, without being familiar with the style
> >an content of YJ's posts, one can't have much of an idea what I'm
> >talking about.  Never mind, then.

> Damn, Skitt.  I slipped in an "of" that should have been a "have" and
> the twisted-knicker alarms went off all over the place.   I fear what
> will happen because of your dropped "d".  

Some folk lead charmed lives.

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Dave Fawthrop - 11 Jan 2004 07:57 GMT
| >>> I'm sure now.  You *are* YJ, and I claim my £5.
| >>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
| >
| > Nah!  OK I give up ;-)

| The above posts have been crossposted to alt.usage.english (AUE), and YJ
| (short for Young Joey) is a nickname for a poster (DE781) there, as anyone
| reading AUE's posts and posting to it should know.

Ah I get it now :-)  We are back to the English language usage.

This is the classic *very* *nasty* trick of a "in" group to exclude
newcomers, much used by infants, teenagers, cliques et. al.   To invent
words and on occasions languages, codes etc. which are only understood by
the "in" group to exclude others, parents, adults etc.

Well as a Senior Citizen I have met most of these nasty tricks many times
and am strong enough to challenge them and win, or as least fight to a
draw.

An aue outsider :-)
Mike Lyle - 11 Jan 2004 19:03 GMT
> | >>> I'm sure now.  You *are* YJ, and I claim my £5.
> | >>
> | >> No, I'm not YJ if YJ is a person; if YJ is the abbreviation of a
> | >> description then, as I do not know what it means, I might be YJ.
[...]
> | > Nah!  OK I give up ;-)
>  
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> An aue outsider :-)

Step right in, Dave! I don't use the abbr "YJ" myself, but I can
assure you it isn't meant to exclude anybody, or to be nasty to any
(always very welcome) new players: the lad is so tireless a
pseudonymous poster that by now we all unthinkingly expect everybody
to have heard of him, and his posting name hardly trips off the tongue
or the keyboard.

Mike.
Dave Fawthrop - 11 Jan 2004 19:33 GMT
| > An aue outsider :-)
|
| Step right in, Dave! I don't use the abbr "YJ" myself, but I can
| assure you it isn't meant to exclude anybody,

But it does. :-(

Dave F <on ucle>
Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 22:13 GMT
>| > An aue outsider :-)
>|
>| Step right in, Dave! I don't use the abbr "YJ" myself, but I can
>| assure you it isn't meant to exclude anybody,
>
>But it does. :-(

Give us some guidelines here.  I - for one - would like you to feel
welcome, so I need to know what previous discussion points can be
referenced, which posters you are familiar with, which running feuds
you follow. and your general preferences about food and sandwiches.
Perhaps you could develop a summary FAQ.

You might wish to google emoticon usage in aue.  Someone might slip in
a veiled reference.
Dave Fawthrop - 12 Jan 2004 09:33 GMT
| >| > An aue outsider :-)
| >|
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
| >
| Give us some guidelines here.  

Remember that a usenet newsgroup is a community which people join and leave
at a whim.  These may be of any nationality, socioeconomic group, age,
profession/job.   Try to use language which all will understand.

| I - for one - would like you to feel
| welcome,

I was making a point Pro Bono Publico

| so I need to know what previous discussion points can be
| referenced, which posters you are familiar with, which running feuds
| you follow.

I avoid running feuds and flame wars wherever I can.

| and your general preferences about food and sandwiches.
| Perhaps you could develop a summary FAQ.
|
| You might wish to google emoticon usage in aue.  Someone might slip in
| a veiled reference.

Dave F
Mike Lyle - 12 Jan 2004 13:53 GMT
>  
> | >| > An aue outsider :-)
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> at a whim.  These may be of any nationality, socioeconomic group, age,
> profession/job.   Try to use language which all will understand. [...]

You mean we shouldn't use the nickname of maybe the group's most
prolific poster in a throwaway frivolous remark? You aren't giving us
a fair shake here. Skitt is the most amiable of men, and most unlikely
to want to put down a total stranger. If you think he should have
checked the archives before assuming that you were a regular, then why
shouldn't he expect you to check the archives to find out what "YJ"
meant before assuming that it was a trap for the uninitiated?

Join in, or just have a random read, and you'll find nearly all of us
are very matey nearly all of the time.

Mike.
{R} - 12 Jan 2004 16:30 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english on 12 Jan 2004 05:53:00 -0800,

}You mean we shouldn't use the nickname of maybe the group's most
}prolific poster in a throwaway frivolous remark?

1) Dave Fuckthrop is a utter fuckwit

} You aren't giving us
}a fair shake here. Skitt is the most amiable of men, and most unlikely
}to want to put down a total stranger.

2) This is cross posted to ucle.

{R}
Dave Fawthrop - 12 Jan 2004 16:36 GMT
| In uk.culture.language.english on 12 Jan 2004 05:53:00 -0800,
|
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
|
| 2) This is cross posted to ucle.

Damn! forgot {R} subscribes to ucle
This record is worn out having been played by the aforesaid person several
thousand times :-(

Dave F
mUs1Ka - 12 Jan 2004 17:26 GMT
>> In uk.culture.language.english on 12 Jan 2004 05:53:00 -0800,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> This record is worn out having been played by the aforesaid person
> several thousand times :-(

I still don't know what a fawwit is.

m.
Enrico C - 12 Jan 2004 17:48 GMT
>> ...is a utter fuckwit
> I still don't know what a fawwit is.

Neither did I. Had to look for it on onelook.com , and it's listed on
just a couple of slang dictionaries.
Not a very common word, is it?

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Enrico C  ~  No native speaker

Raymond S. Wise - 13 Jan 2004 00:21 GMT
> >> ...is a utter fuckwit
> > I still don't know what a fawwit is.
>
> Neither did I. Had to look for it on onelook.com , and it's listed on
> just a couple of slang dictionaries.
> Not a very common word, is it?

For a native speaker, given the existence of the terms "dimwit," "half-wit"
and "nitwit," and the use of "f.ck" as a general term of abuse, the "stupid
person" sense of "fuckwit" is easy enough to guess.

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Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

{R} - 13 Jan 2004 13:09 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english on Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:21:18 -0600,

}"Enrico C" <enrico.c@spamcop.net> wrote in message
}news:1vsrxqm7aqao.dlg@news.lillathedog.net...
}> mUs1Ka | alt.usage.english,uk.culture.language.english
}> in <news:btula0$bcj7g$1@ID-193735.news.uni-berlin.de>
}>
}> >> ...is a utter fuckwit
}> > I still don't know what a fawwit is.
}>
}> Neither did I. Had to look for it on onelook.com , and it's listed on
}> just a couple of slang dictionaries.
}> Not a very common word, is it?
}
}For a native speaker, given the existence of the terms "dimwit," "half-wit"
}and "nitwit," and the use of "f.ck" as a general term of abuse, the "stupid
}person" sense of "fuckwit" is easy enough to guess.

There is some thoughts on derivation on http://fuckwits.info

{R}
Dave Fawthrop - 12 Jan 2004 19:33 GMT
| >> In uk.culture.language.english on 12 Jan 2004 05:53:00 -0800,
| >>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
| >
| I still don't know what a fawwit is.

Fuckwit: One who disagrees with {R} Richard Ashton.
mUs1Ka - 12 Jan 2004 20:48 GMT
>>>> In uk.culture.language.english on 12 Jan 2004 05:53:00 -0800,
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Fuckwit: One who disagrees with {R} Richard Ashton.

I know what a fuckwit is. As he spelt your name Fuckthrop, I assumed there
must be a word fawwit.
m.
Steve Hayes - 13 Jan 2004 18:26 GMT
>> Fuckwit: One who disagrees with {R} Richard Ashton.
>
>I know what a fuckwit is. As he spelt your name Fuckthrop, I assumed there
>must be a word fawwit.
>m.

I've seen "fucktard".

I assume a leotard with a hole in the crotch.

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E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Ross Howard - 13 Jan 2004 19:02 GMT
>>> Fuckwit: One who disagrees with {R} Richard Ashton.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>I assume a leotard with a hole in the crotch.

Aha! A CGI expert, I see.[1]

[1. Compromised gussetary integrity.]

--
Ross Howard
Charles Riggs - 13 Jan 2004 06:49 GMT
>Join in, or just have a random read, and you'll find nearly all of us
>are very matey nearly all of the time.

It'd be interesting to learn how many unmarried pairs of us have
actually mated, matey as we are. Before, after, or during a boink,
perhaps?
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Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 11 Jan 2004 02:38 GMT
> Lastly, whatever Google presents might not be what was intended by Mr
> Bannister. Instead of having no idea, which might be bad, I might end
> up with the wrong idea, which would be worse.

A /very/ good point: people often write "the first hit on Google is
exactly the article you need to read"; however, what one person sees as
the first hit may well not be the same as what another enquirer, using
exactly the same search criteria, will receive.

This is because Google uses distributed processing and, more importantly,
distributed databases of article indices; therefore which particular
database is interrogated first depends more upon the time of day, routing
to the server farm, loading on other servers, etc., etc., than it does
upon the exact phraseology of the search terms.

Therefore, having used Google to find what a poster considers to be THE
definitive result, s/he should post a URL for that particular document,
rather than relying upon others being able to get Google to serve up
exactly the same list of results.

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Robert Bannister - 11 Jan 2004 00:22 GMT
>>>>David wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr
> Bannister for it was he who suggested it.

Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on rethinking,
I may be getting confused with Get Smart.

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Rob Bannister

Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 01:39 GMT
>>>>>I think you should get under the Cone of Silence.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on rethinking,
>I may be getting confused with Get Smart.

Stick with "Get Smart" in this case.  
David - 11 Jan 2004 02:48 GMT
> >>>>>I think you should get under the Cone of Silence.
> >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> >Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on
> >rethinking, I may be getting confused with Get Smart.

> Stick with "Get Smart" in this case.  

This is getting more intriguing by the hour.

I really is a good thing that the BBC broadcasts some US programmes
otherwise I would have absolutely no idea what you are all going on
about.

BTW. Rumour has it that "The Office" is to be copied on USA television.
A pound (several US Thalers [at the way they're going down in value] to
a penny [a real one, that is, not your US pretend "penny"]) that the US
remake will not have that air of British understatement which makes
"The Office" such a delight but will be the usual
vaudeville-turn-to-the-camera-and shout the obvious US comedy show.

Okay, you Yanks, given that (due to monetary concerns) even the the
sludge of US TV usually finds its way onto UK TV but only the best of
UK TV finds its way onto US TV, what are your favourite UK sitcoms?

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Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 05:33 GMT
>> >Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on
>> >rethinking, I may be getting confused with Get Smart.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>sludge of US TV usually finds its way onto UK TV but only the best of
>UK TV finds its way onto US TV, what are your favourite UK sitcoms?

First, you have to understand that the major networks (ABC, NBC, and
CBS) do not carry any of the Britcoms.  When available to us, they are
usually available only on our PBS (Public Broadcast System).

PBS does not have a nation-wide feed.  They have affiliate PBS
stations, but each station is independent and each station
independently decides which programming to purchase.  Consequently, a
program available on PBS in one city may not be available in another
city.  Available to me (in Orlando FL) this week are:

Keeping Up Appearances, Are you Being Served?, and Last of the Summer
Wine.  To give you an idea of how old these episodes are, John Inman
was straight when they were made.  

I have cable access to BBC America and receive some of the later
programs.  BBC America, however, is not available on all cable
systems.  Rather than list the Britcoms available, look at
http://www.bbcamerica.com/genre/comedy_games/comedy_games.jsp and see
what they are offering this week.  Keeping Up Appearances re-emerges,
but BBC A is showing series 5 and PBS is re-running series 2 or 3.  

Of the lot on this page, I don't really care for any of them.  I've
been a fan of Britcoms since "Doctor in the House" in the 70s, and
would single out   "Rising Damp", "Yes, Minister", and "Fawlty Towers"
as the best of the bunch.  (I'm sure I've forgotten some that were
favorites at the time)   I don't count MPATFC as a sitcom, so it's not
on the list.  

I've never liked Rowan Atkinson, though, and "The Thin Blue Line" is
not something I watch.  Hyacinth is in the "been there, done that"
group.  "My Hero" is not mine.  The last *good* show shown over here
was "Coupling".  

"The Office" has funny moments, but I wouldn't rate it up there with
the better bundles from Britain.  You say "understated", and I think
"underdeveloped".  I can only recall one really laugh-out-loud
episode, and that was the one where Tim built a wall of boxes between
his desk and Gareth's.  There was another when one of the women was
"fired" for stealing something (paperclips?), but it was a joke by
David.  His complete surprise at not having the "joke" thought funny
was almost too realistic to be funny.

I really don't see how you can say that an American version of "The
Office" will not live up the UK version and think you've made a
particularly clever observation.  It won't, but it shouldn't be
expected to.  The American version will be a major network production
aimed for the market that watches shows like  ..... well, I can't give
you the names because I don't watch them and you wouldn't know them.  

Our "Coupling" was an absolute failure even though the script was
almost line-for-line the same as the original.  The lines, though,
were lines that made British prime time viewers laugh, and not lines
that make American prime time viewers laugh. I didn't laugh, but I'd
seen the UK version and expected the characters to be the UK
characters... and they weren't. I "knew" the characters, and ours just
weren't the same.

We shouldn't try to adapt British comedy to prime time TV here.  "All
In The Family" was an anomaly.  But, we didn't copy "Till Death Do Us
Part".  Norman Lear *based* AITF on your show.  There's a difference.

Now don't start nattering on again about American "sludge" or I'll
start talking about Benny Hill.  

 
David - 11 Jan 2004 12:04 GMT
[Snip]

> "The Office" has funny moments, but I wouldn't rate it up there with
> the better bundles from Britain.  You say "understated", and I think
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> David.  His complete surprise at not having the "joke" thought funny
> was almost too realistic to be funny.

Hmm? I think my point was that I didn't think it was intended as the
laugh-out-loud, turn to the camera, put on the face that says "I'm
going to say something funny" and deliver your punchline in a loud
clear voice then wait until the laughter dies down before doing the
next gag, sort of show.

> I really don't see how you can say that an American version of "The
> Office" will not live up the UK version and think you've made a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> give you the names because I don't watch them and you wouldn't know
> them.  

Because, as you say, you found it "underdeveloped" with only a single
laugh-out-loud moment. If it is remade for the US market, it will
almost certainly be totally overdeveloped by a huge team of
scriptwriters into the style considered to be suitable for a sitcom and
have its full quota of very-funny-laugh-out-loud moments in each
episode, just like almost every other US sitcom.

[Snip]

> Now don't start nattering on again about American "sludge" or I'll
> start talking about Benny Hill.  

Please do. I wasn't saying that all US TV was sludge, just that a lot
of it is and we tend to get it. And, yes, we've produced lots of TV
sludge in our time.

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Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 21:49 GMT
>[Snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>clear voice then wait until the laughter dies down before doing the
>next gag, sort of show.

What you are carrying on about is the technique of the producers of a
show to make the viewer laugh or otherwise react with amusement. Their
technique may include anything from the classic
board-over-the-shoulder-turn shtick (1) to a subtle reference.  

My reference is to the reaction.  I like to laugh out loud.  You,
evidently, prefer the knowing smirk, the "I'm clever enough to get it"
nod of approval.    I'm one of those crass Yanks that doesn't mind
visibly and audibly showing amusement.  

The American style of signal ling "This is funny!" on television is,
indeed, over-done.  In case the actors don't signal adequately, the
American viewer is provided with a raucous laugh-track.  Television
sitcoms, though, are entertainment and nothing more.  The producers
should design the program to provide that entertainment to expected
audience.  There's no reason for them to treat the audience any
differently than the audience wants to be treated.  The Americans that
look for something more have other avenues of entertainment available
to them.

I assume the British producers of television comedy do the same:  gear
the programming to the viewer's tastes and interests.  Your shows seem
to run the gamut from in-your-face tastelessness to rather
sophisticated and brittle comedy.  We see more of your better output,
but only because we bring in only a limited number of shows and air
them on channels that have a particular type of audience.

I've never cared for Rowan Atkinson (I say that recognizing that he's
an icon to many in this newsgroup) because he is - in my view - a
signaler of the first order.  He's Benny Hill in tights and a ruffled
collar.  I don't think that the Blackadder (that is one word, not
two?) series is bad television; it's just television that doesn't
appeal to me.

>> I really don't see how you can say that an American version of "The
>> Office" will not live up the UK version and think you've made a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Because, as you say, you found it "underdeveloped" with only a single
>laugh-out-loud moment.

Whether you laugh-out-loud or give the stiff upper a twitch, the aim
of a comedy show is to provide amusement.  I just don't think the show
is particularly developed to provide amusement that gets any reaction.
It's a cameraman that stumbles around and occasionally films a funny
bit.

> If it is remade for the US market, it will
>almost certainly be totally overdeveloped by a huge team of
>scriptwriters into the style considered to be suitable for a sitcom and
>have its full quota of very-funny-laugh-out-loud moments in each
>episode, just like almost every other US sitcom.

Why shouldn't it?  It wouldn't be being re-made for a British
audience.  It would be rather silly to do a British version for an
American audience.  If a British version is desired, all we have to do
is buy the rights to the original and show it on network prime time.

Besides, I think we have an obligation to our British friends to
continually supply them with opportunities to feel superior.  It seems
to give some of them such pleasure.

(1) Inclusion for Rey's benefit.  I hope that I lived up to
expectations and spelled and used it incorrectly.  I try to live up to
what is expected of me.
Wanderer - 11 Jan 2004 22:07 GMT
<snip>

> Besides, I think we have an obligation to our British friends to
> continually supply them with opportunities to feel superior.  

We do not *feel* superior. When it comes to a sense of humour we *are*
superior.

:-)
Skitt - 11 Jan 2004 22:22 GMT

> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> :-)

Yup -- you just made me laugh.  Good one.
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David - 11 Jan 2004 23:12 GMT
>  
> > <snip>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> >
> > :-)

> Yup -- you just made me laugh.  Good one.

No comment!

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Robert Bannister - 12 Jan 2004 01:05 GMT
> Our "Coupling" was an absolute failure even though the script was
> almost line-for-line the same as the original.  The lines, though,
> were lines that made British prime time viewers laugh, and not lines
> that make American prime time viewers laugh.

May I ask what you consider to be prime time viewing? I would expect
something like 7.30-8.30 pm. In Australia, 'Coupling' and 'Office' were
both shown at 9.30 pm - a bit on the late side for those of us who rise
early and retire early - I think there must be some policy about showing
"naughty" programmes fairly late. The "League of Gentlemen" was on well
after 10, but I used to watch it because it followed something else I
liked. I find once I've pressed the "off" button, I can't be bothered to
switch back on again.

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Tony Cooper - 12 Jan 2004 01:41 GMT
>> Our "Coupling" was an absolute failure even though the script was
>> almost line-for-line the same as the original.  The lines, though,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>liked. I find once I've pressed the "off" button, I can't be bothered to
>switch back on again.

There is a definition of "prime time" that the networks use.  I'm not
sure what that is.  What *I* would consider to be "prime time" is 8:00
PM to 11:00 PM Monday through Friday.  That is, a programs that start
no earlier than 8:00 PM and end no later than 11:00 PM.  

Saturday and Sunday are the same, but we rarely see a major program
aired on Saturday night.  The networks evidently feel too many people
are out on that night.  Sunday night is similar, but "60 Minutes" does
air on Sunday.  

My version probably is a bit off.  There are programs that I don't
watch that may be shown in some version of "prime time", but I don't
know when they air.  For example, I don't have the slightest idea when
"Survivor" or any of the reality TV shows air.  
Skitt - 12 Jan 2004 01:50 GMT

>> May I ask what you consider to be prime time viewing? I would expect
>> something like 7.30-8.30 pm. In Australia, 'Coupling' and 'Office'
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> know when they air.  For example, I don't have the slightest idea when
> "Survivor" or any of the reality TV shows air.

In prime time, as defined by you above.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 Jan 2004 16:52 GMT
> Our "Coupling" was an absolute failure even though the script was
> almost line-for-line the same as the original.  The lines, though,
> were lines that made British prime time viewers laugh, and not lines
> that make American prime time viewers laugh.

I'm not sure that that's fair.  The lines were lines that made
American viewers laugh--when they watched the British episodes.  It
wasn't that the lines didn't fit, it was largely the delivery.  (Plus
the fact that when they cut it to fit an American half-hour slot they
lost too much.)

> I didn't laugh, but I'd seen the UK version and expected the
> characters to be the UK characters... and they weren't. I "knew" the
> characters, and ours just weren't the same.

That, too.

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Tony Cooper - 12 Jan 2004 17:26 GMT
>> Our "Coupling" was an absolute failure even though the script was
>> almost line-for-line the same as the original.  The lines, though,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I'm not sure that that's fair.  The lines were lines that made
>American viewers laugh--when they watched the British episodes.

I don't know if this can really be decided.  The American viewers that
watched the Britversion laughed, but a claim can be made that American
viewers who watch British comedy on PBS or BBC-A are not typical
American viewers.  After an American viewer watches enough British
comedy, the viewer becomes more attuned to the British style of humor.

>It wasn't that the lines didn't fit, it was largely the delivery.  (Plus
>the fact that when they cut it to fit an American half-hour slot they
>lost too much.)

If you watched both, the delivery lacked.  Without watching the
original, you didn't have a sense of what was being attempted.  With
"Jeff", you had to have a sense of "Jeff" to catch many of the
attempts.

>> I didn't laugh, but I'd seen the UK version and expected the
>> characters to be the UK characters... and they weren't. I "knew" the
>> characters, and ours just weren't the same.
>
>That, too.
Carmen L. Abruzzi - 11 Jan 2004 08:02 GMT
Once upon a 1/10/04 6:48 PM, in the land of
4c6ee1d96ddavid@dacha.freeuk.com, the very good"David" from
<david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:

> BTW. Rumour has it that "The Office" is to be copied on USA television.
> A pound (several US Thalers [at the way they're going down in value] to
> a penny [a real one, that is, not your US pretend "penny"]) that the US
> remake will not have that air of British understatement which makes
> "The Office" such a delight but will be the usual
> vaudeville-turn-to-the-camera-and shout the obvious US comedy show.

Y'mean like "Are You Being Served?"?

> Okay, you Yanks, given that (due to monetary concerns) even the the
> sludge of US TV usually finds its way onto UK TV but only the best of
> UK TV finds its way onto US TV, what are your favourite UK sitcoms?

So, it is among the best of UK TV, eh?  Sad.
"UK sitcoms" would seem to be an oxymoron, then.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 Jan 2004 16:48 GMT
> Okay, you Yanks, given that (due to monetary concerns) even the the
> sludge of US TV usually finds its way onto UK TV but only the best
> of UK TV finds its way onto US TV,

There are reasons for that.  The American networks typically won't
touch British series, largely because of the difference in number of
episodes per season (22 in the US vs. six to nine in the UK).  This is
a big reason why when they like a show, they'll make a series based on
it, which sometimes works (_All in the Family_/_Till Death Us Do
Part_, _Sanford and Son_/_Steptoe and Son_, _Three's Company_/_Robin's
Nest_) and sometimes doesn't (_Coupling_, _Payne_/_Fawlty Towers_),
often spectacularly.  The whole model is different, and US networks
typically expect the first two or three episodes to be needed in order
to build-up word-of-mouth and critical interest, leading to an
audience for the rest of the season.  If "the rest of the season" is
three episodes, it's not worth it.

Where British shows were imported, it was typically on PBS, which is
funded (government funding aside) by voluntary viewer contributions
rather than by advertising revenue.  So they're not interested in
selling eyeballs, but rather finding things that will make a smallish
number of people say "This is worth paying for".  Also, while the main
networks bought shows for broadcast to the entire US, individual PBS
stations did their own buying.  Finally, PBS viewers (especially those
who donate) tend to have a somewhat "snobbish" view of television, and
like to feel that by watching PBS, they're watching "good" TV as
opposed to what the networks show.  This is somewhat counterbalanced
by the fact that--due to British shows largely only appearing on PBS,
and due to the fact that the British shows shown have been among the
best--there's something of a feeling of "If it's British and it's on
PBS, it must be high class", which lets some stations buy nearly
anything.  For a while it seemed that one station around here was
showing nothing but _Are You Being Served?_ et sequelae.  A nice piece
of fluff, but hardly "the best of UK TV", I'd think.  It would be
interesting to see lists of what you considered "good" and "bad"
UK sitcoms to see what's been shown here.

Even with this, it's more worth it for a PBS station to buy a show
that has a reasonable number of episodes, and that means one that's
typically had at least two or three seasons in the UK.  This cuts out
much of the garbage, I'm sure.

There are exceptions to the rule, though.  Sometime independent
(typically UHF) stations would buy British shows, which is how we got
exposed to _Benny Hill_, not "high class" enough for PBS, but able to
sell eyeballs and with enough episodes (98, apparently) to be
worthwhile.  I think this is where I also came across _The Kenny
Everett Video Show_.

> what are your favourite UK sitcoms?

In rough order,

  _Coupling_
  _Red Dwarf_
  _Yes, [Prime] Minister_

Others I've liked include

  _Blackadder_
  _Waiting for God_
  _Absolutely Fabulous_
  _Are You Being Served?_
  _Bless Me, Father_
  _The Goodies_ (if this qualifies as a "sitcom")
  _Good Neighbors_ (_The Good Life_)

Other shows as well, but they aren't sitcoms.

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Jacqui - 12 Jan 2004 17:02 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum wibbled

> There are reasons for that.  The American networks typically won't
> touch British series, largely because of the difference in number
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Family_/_Till Death Us Do Part_, _Sanford and Son_/_Steptoe and
> Son_, _Three's Company_/_Robin's Nest_)

Three's Company was Man About The House (bloke shares flat with two
girls). Robin's Nest was the sequel (currently showing on Paramount
Comedy Channel here, I watched an episode less than 2 hours ago) in
which bloke runs restaurant with girlfriend (marrying her and having
children during the run), and this was remade as Three's A Crowd
according to http://www.phill.co.uk/comedy/robin/index.html.

Jac
Matti Lamprhey - 12 Jan 2004 17:12 GMT
"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote...
> [...]  It would be
> interesting to see lists of what you considered "good" and "bad"
> UK sitcoms to see what's been shown here.

This is timely, as I mentioned upthread, and you might like to browse:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sitcom/top10.shtml

Matti
Tony Cooper - 12 Jan 2004 17:41 GMT
>"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote...
>> [...]  It would be
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Matti

The stations I have access to never carried "One Foot In The Grave",
"Only Fools And Horses", or "Porridge".  I've enjoyed all the rest
except "Blackadder" and "Dad's Army".  I thought "Dad's Army" was
rather mediocre.
Jacqui - 12 Jan 2004 17:24 GMT
Evan Kirshenbaum wibbled

>> what are your favourite UK sitcoms?
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Other shows as well, but they aren't sitcoms.

Apart from AYBS (yuck) and BM,F (which I don't remember) I'd agree with
your list there (although AbFab has gone downhill lately). I have the
first three on DVD (all the episodes currently released, anyway) and we
rewatch them regularly; similarly we have all the Blackadders (VHS)
although we probably know them too well to rewatch often.

I have worked at the nursing home featured in Waiting for God,
incidentally. It's on the bus route between Witney and Oxford, and is
very grand inside, nothing like "Bayview" in the interior shots.  

Jac
Tony Cooper - 12 Jan 2004 17:32 GMT
>In rough order,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>Other shows as well, but they aren't sitcoms.

You left off "Yes, Minister" (the first of the series) and "Manor
Born".  Did you not catch them, or was the omission deliberate?
mUs1Ka - 12 Jan 2004 17:38 GMT
>> In rough order,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> You left off "Yes, Minister" (the first of the series) and "Manor
> Born".  Did you not catch them, or was the omission deliberate?

I think that Evan implied that he liked both with: _Yes, [Prime] Minister_

m.
Matti Lamprhey - 12 Jan 2004 17:47 GMT
"Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com> wrote...

> >In rough order,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> You left off "Yes, Minister" (the first of the series) and "Manor
> Born".  Did you not catch them, or was the omission deliberate?

It's interesting how these shows date, though.  I enjoyed _Manor Born_
on its original run, but it's just embarrassing now.  Contrast this with
the earlier _Good Life_, which hasn't dated a bit.

_Yes, Minister_ remains excellent, but I wince at those regular set
pieces of overdone flummery.

I'd choose _Porridge_, _Fawlty_, _Dad's Army_ (which will never date!),
_Blackadder III_, _Minister_, _Steptoe_, _Hancock_, _Sykes_.  Good
second-rankers include _Rising Damp_ (one of the very few non-BBC
sitcoms which worked well), _Good Life_, _Fools/Horses_.

Matti
David - 12 Jan 2004 20:46 GMT
[Snip]

> > what are your favourite UK sitcoms?

> In rough order,

>    _Coupling_
>    _Red Dwarf_
>    _Yes, [Prime] Minister_

I think Red Dwarf has to be one my all time favourites, as well. Not
only was it indescribably funny (in parts) but most of the earlier
series were also based on very good science fiction ideas.

> Others I've liked include

>    _Blackadder_
>    _Waiting for God_
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>    _The Goodies_ (if this qualifies as a "sitcom")
>    _Good Neighbors_ (_The Good Life_)

The first series of Waiting for God was quite good but it aged quickly.

Maybe I ought to stop corresponding with Americans in my usual
aggressive manner seeing as the US Air Force have started bombing
Yorkshire.

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David - 11 Jan 2004 01:47 GMT
> > I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr
> > Bannister for it was he who suggested it.
> >
> Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on
> rethinking, I may be getting confused with Get Smart.

I'll allow you "confused" (no, don't beef about it!)

Now, please tell me what you meant.

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Charles Riggs - 11 Jan 2004 05:43 GMT
>> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr
>> Bannister for it was he who suggested it.
>>
>Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on rethinking,
>I may be getting confused with Get Smart.

Next we'll have to tell David how to reconnoitre from inside a
mailbox, or how Maxwell's shoe phone worked. I wouldn't have thought a
person alive hadn't seen Agent 86, the Chief, and the lovely 99, or
some other agent, attempt discussion of highly classified information
under the Cone of Silence.
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david56 - 11 Jan 2004 11:05 GMT
CHANGE@aircom.net spake thus:

> >> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr
> >> Bannister for it was he who suggested it.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> some other agent, attempt discussion of highly classified information
> under the Cone of Silence.

My children have never seem Get Smart - I don't think it's been
broadcast in the UK for 25 years or more.

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=====

Matti Lamprhey - 11 Jan 2004 11:34 GMT
"david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote...

> My children have never seem Get Smart - I don't think it's been
> broadcast in the UK for 25 years or more.

No -- I remember it fondly.  Were they all monochrome?  If so, that
may be a preventive factor.  However, the later movie spin-off was shown
on British TV a year or so ago.

Matti
Gwilym Calon - 11 Jan 2004 14:36 GMT
> "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote...
> > My children have never seem Get Smart - I don't think it's been
> > broadcast in the UK for 25 years or more.
> No -- I remember it fondly.  Were they all monochrome?

No - but UK TV was mostly mono when they were broadcast - so most British
viewers only saw them in b&w. I think they may have been repeated in colour on a
satellite channel, but I only have fond memories of them from my (long-gone)
childhood.

----------------
GC
R F - 11 Jan 2004 20:13 GMT
> "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote...
> >
> > My children have never seem Get Smart - I don't think it's been
> > broadcast in the UK for 25 years or more.
>
> No -- I remember it fondly.  Were they all monochrome?

No.  *Some* of them, at least, were in color.

> If so, that may be a preventive factor.

Why so?
John Hall - 11 Jan 2004 20:41 GMT
>> "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote...
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
>No.  *Some* of them, at least, were in color.

Some were no doubt made in colour, but they may well have been broadcast
in the UK before colour TV was introduced here (which occurred in
something like 1967 IIRC).
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Matti Lamprhey - 11 Jan 2004 21:19 GMT
"R F" <rfontana@alumni.wesleyan.edu> wrote...
> > "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote...
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Why so?

I suspect, on the basis of evidence which is noticeable by its abscess,
that a colour series is more likely to be shown on TV than a mono one,
everything else being equal.

BTW, is there a pukka Latin phrase for "everything else being equal"?

Matti
Skitt - 11 Jan 2004 21:53 GMT
> "R F" wrote...
>>> "david56" wrote...

>>>> My children have never seem Get Smart - I don't think it's been
>>>> broadcast in the UK for 25 years or more.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> abscess, that a colour series is more likely to be shown on TV than a
> mono one, everything else being equal.

I obsess -- were you, perhaps, the victim of a spelling checker?
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Matti Lamprhey - 11 Jan 2004 22:21 GMT
"Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote...

> > I suspect, on the basis of evidence which is noticeable by its
> > abscess, that a colour series is more likely to be shown on TV than
> > a mono one, everything else being equal.
>
> I obsess -- were you, perhaps, the victim of a spelling checker?

Serpently not;  it behoves one to be master of one's spelling checker if
one is to write malaproperly at all times.

I've granted myself a degree of mattistic licence.

Matti
Donna Richoux - 11 Jan 2004 22:15 GMT
> BTW, is there a pukka Latin phrase for "everything else being equal"?

From somebody's web page

  ceteris paribus = everything else being equal

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Best -- Donna Richoux

Matti Lamprhey - 11 Jan 2004 22:29 GMT
"Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote...

> > BTW, is there a pukka Latin phrase for "everything else being
> > equal"?
>
> From somebody's web page
>
>    ceteris paribus = everything else being equal

Thanks, Donna -- I'm sure I've used that in the past as well.  Quel
idiot.

Matti
Reinhold (Rey) Aman - 12 Jan 2004 01:59 GMT
> > > BTW, is there a pukka Latin phrase for
> > > "everything else being equal"?

> > From somebody's web page
> >
> >    ceteris paribus = everything else being equal

> Thanks, Donna -- I'm sure I've used that in the past as well.
> Quel idiot.

There's another, better-known Latin phrase for that English one, but I
can't think of it this moment.  Dr. Love?

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Charles Riggs - 12 Jan 2004 05:15 GMT
>"R F" <rfontana@alumni.wesleyan.edu> wrote...
>> > "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote...
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>that a colour series is more likely to be shown on TV than a mono one,
>everything else being equal.

You're in the dark, must I say? _Get Smart_ was recorded in colour and
broadcast in colour in those countries advanced enough to be able to
carry it off. God Bless Technology, America, and, finally, George W
Bush, Our Saviour. Lucky thing for us, too, He began planning the
invasion of Iraq a few days  -- now we know -- after He took office,
or He might not have been ready for 11 September and all that
followed. Without His knowledge of foreign affairs and countries
outside of Texas, He might not have had that foresight.
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David - 11 Jan 2004 12:07 GMT
> >> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr
> >> Bannister for it was he who suggested it.
> >>
> >Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on
> >rethinking, I may be getting confused with Get Smart.

> Next we'll have to tell David how to reconnoitre from inside a
> mailbox, or how Maxwell's shoe phone worked. I wouldn't have thought a
> person alive hadn't seen Agent 86, the Chief, and the lovely 99, or
> some other agent, attempt discussion of highly classified information
> under the Cone of Silence.

Possibly I had but it's so long, long ago and really not worth the
remembering, let alone attempting to use the allusions.

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Charles Riggs - 12 Jan 2004 05:15 GMT
>> >> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr
>> >> Bannister for it was he who suggested it.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>Possibly I had but it's so long, long ago and really not worth the
>remembering, let alone attempting to use the allusions.

Sad, really. It was highly amusing, especially to anyone who'd ever
worked with, or for, the US government. Or to anyone, I'd think, who
was familiar with how ridiculous military behavior and government
officialese can be. Or to anyone with a sense of humour, though
unfamiliar with such things. Did I leave anyone out, David?
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David - 12 Jan 2004 08:13 GMT
> >> >> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr
> >> >> Bannister for it was he who suggested it.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >Possibly I had but it's so long, long ago and really not worth the
> >remembering, let alone attempting to use the allusions.

> Sad, really. It was highly amusing, especially to anyone who'd ever
> worked with, or for, the US government. Or to anyone, I'd think, who
> was familiar with how ridiculous military behavior and government
> officialese can be. Or to anyone with a sense of humour, though
> unfamiliar with such things. Did I leave anyone out, David?

I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth so I suppose
one or two might not be included in your list. Just how many do or have
at any time worked with, or for, the US government?

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Donna Richoux - 12 Jan 2004 20:57 GMT
> I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth

My word, a bona fide sighting of "billion" being used to mean
"trillion." And here I've been told that's extinct.

You guys in u.c.l.e keeping some sort of breeding colony going?

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David - 13 Jan 2004 08:13 GMT
> > I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth

> My word, a bona fide sighting of "billion" being used to mean
> "trillion." And here I've been told that's extinct.

> You guys in u.c.l.e keeping some sort of breeding colony going?

And I thought I was insulting!

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Donna Richoux - 13 Jan 2004 09:27 GMT
> > > I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> And I thought I was insulting!

All right, thank you for acknowledging that. I apologize. I was building
up a grudge based on some of your other recent posts, but that does't
make it right. (I'm tempted to say "to be cheeky," but you have no idea
how ingrained it is in me not to use British expressions.)

Still, there's truth in what I said up there -- I'm curious as to
whether you folks in u.c.l.e make a point of keeping that "billion"
going among yourselves. It's a rare bird. We've discussed it extensively
in the past here, and I never have seen it actually used, only referred
to. UK posters have said that they honestly can't be sure what "billion"
means any more when they see it (you kindly gave an example whose value
could be verified).

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John Hall - 13 Jan 2004 11:08 GMT
>Still, there's truth in what I said up there -- I'm curious as to
>whether you folks in u.c.l.e make a point of keeping that "billion"
>going among yourselves.

Well, _I_ don't for one. I can't remember when the word was last
discussed in ucle, but I don't think it was recently.

> It's a rare bird. We've discussed it extensively
>in the past here, and I never have seen it actually used, only referred
>to. UK posters have said that they honestly can't be sure what "billion"
>means any more when they see it (you kindly gave an example whose value
>could be verified).

The American usage has been predominant in the UK for at least the last
thirty years. The traditional British "billion" is now never used in the
mainstream media. My Concise Oxford Dictionary gives "one thousand
million" as the primary meaning for the word. Those who insist on the
traditional Britishmeaning are now probably only one or two per cent of
the population.
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Robert Bannister - 13 Jan 2004 23:52 GMT
>>Still, there's truth in what I said up there -- I'm curious as to
>>whether you folks in u.c.l.e make a point of keeping that "billion"
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> traditional Britishmeaning are now probably only one or two per cent of
> the population.

I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age
thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I make a
point of never using the word myself. If people stuck to numerical
notation - not perhaps 2 000 000 000 (000), but 2^9 or 2^12 - we'd all
be more enlightened.
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David - 14 Jan 2004 08:39 GMT
> > The American usage has been predominant in the UK for at least the
> > last thirty years. The traditional British "billion" is now never
> > used in the mainstream media. My Concise Oxford Dictionary gives
> > "one thousand million" as the primary meaning for the word. Those
> > who insist on the traditional Britishmeaning are now probably only
> > one or two per cent of the population.

> I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age
> thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I make
> a point of never using the word myself. If people stuck to numerical
> notation - not perhaps 2 000 000 000 (000), but 2^9 or 2^12 - we'd
> all be more enlightened.

On the news this morning, I heard that the cost of putting Yanks on
Mars (Mission motto: "Better Red Than Dead"?) would be something like
"a thousand billion dollars". Now, I might be wrong here but surely if
the billion in question were 1000 times more than the million, then
1000 times that would be the trillion; using the terminology "thousand
billion" suggests that the billion is the million million kind -- or at
least it creates some confusion.

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Peter Duncanson - 14 Jan 2004 12:09 GMT
>> > The American usage has been predominant in the UK for at least the
>> > last thirty years. The traditional British "billion" is now never
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>billion" suggests that the billion is the million million kind -- or at
>least it creates some confusion.

Surely there would be no confusion in the US - where 'billion' *always*
means 'thousand million'.

Because of it's comparative unfamiliarity might not 'a trillion' give the
impression of a much large number than 'a thousand billion'?

Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US government
circles?

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David - 14 Jan 2004 15:59 GMT
> >> > The American usage has been predominant in the UK for at least
> >> > the last thirty years. The traditional British "billion" is now
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> >terminology "thousand billion" suggests that the billion is the
> >million million kind -- or at least it creates some confusion.

> Surely there would be no confusion in the US - where 'billion'
> *always* means 'thousand million'.

And the illogicality not considered so? I see what you mean.

> Because of it's comparative unfamiliarity might not 'a trillion' give
> the impression of a much large number than 'a thousand billion'?

True, I've never had a trillion in my pocket.

> Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US
> government circles?

I thought it was the buck.

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Robert Bannister - 15 Jan 2004 00:10 GMT
>>Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US
>>government circles?
>
> I thought it was the buck.

The buck stopped with Truman. Now it's the billion.

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David - 15 Jan 2004 08:39 GMT
> >>Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US
> >>government circles?
> >
> > I thought it was the buck.

> The buck stopped with Truman. Now it's the billion.

Ah, yes, Truman: "The buck's tops here!"

Bush: "The billions to sphere!"

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Iskandar Baharuddin - 15 Jan 2004 08:50 GMT
> > >>Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US
> > >>government circles?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Bush: "The billions to sphere!"

Tip O'Neill: "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're
talking about real money."

Izzy
rzed - 15 Jan 2004 15:08 GMT
> > > >>Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US
> > > >>government circles?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Tip O'Neill: "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're
> talking about real money."

Whether or not he ever said it, that's usually credited to Ev Dirksen. I've
never before seen it associated with Tip O'Neill.

--
rzed
Iskandar Baharuddin - 15 Jan 2004 16:10 GMT
> > > > >>Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US
> > > > >>government circles?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Whether or not he ever said it, that's usually credited to Ev Dirksen. I've
> never before seen it associated with Tip O'Neill.

Contrary to popular opinion I am not infallible. I did remember it that way,
but I decided to check it out.

It turns out to be most likely that neither Dirksen nor O'Neill ever utter
this piece of wisdom.

At http://www.dirksencenter.org/featuresBillionHere.htm I found the
following:

"A billion here, a billion there . . ."

Did Dirksen ever say, " A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon
you're talking real money"? (or anything very close to that?)

Perhaps not. Based on an exhaustive search of the paper and audio records of
The Dirksen Congressional Center, staffers there have found no evidence that
Dirksen ever uttered the phrase popularly attributed to him.

The article continues on to explain the research process.

Of course, there is always the possiblity that Tip O'Neill used an
apocryphal quotation...

Thanks for querying this.

Regards,

Izzy
Steve Hayes - 14 Jan 2004 12:43 GMT
>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age
>thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I make a
>point of never using the word myself. If people stuck to numerical
>notation - not perhaps 2 000 000 000 (000), but 2^9 or 2^12 - we'd all
>be more enlightened.

I do the same. To me a billion is "a lot" (AmE= alot).

But here the Afrikaans newspapers, which were always inclined to be more
politically correct, still use "miljaard" (soomeimes abeviated to "milj" on
posters).

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Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 14 Jan 2004 19:24 GMT
> I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age
> thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I make a
> point of never using the word myself. If people stuck to numerical
> notation - not perhaps 2 000 000 000 (000), but 2^9 or 2^12 - we'd all
> be more enlightened.

Errm, ITYM 2x10^9 and 2x10^12 (and not 512 or 4096)

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Robert Bannister - 15 Jan 2004 00:11 GMT
>>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age
>>thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I make a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Errm, ITYM 2x10^9 and 2x10^12 (and not 512 or 4096)

I should be decimated for that.

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David - 15 Jan 2004 08:40 GMT
> >>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age
> >> thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> I should be decimated for that.

Twice.

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Dave Fawthrop - 15 Jan 2004 08:58 GMT
| > >>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age
| > >> thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
|
| Twice.

Decimation was a punishment used against the Roman Legions.
10% of the Legion/unit were executed by lot.  

So decimation of an individual, once or twice would be a form of Russian
Roulette.

Dave F
David - 15 Jan 2004 15:13 GMT
> | > >>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily
> | > >>(age thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> |
> | Twice.

> Decimation was a punishment used against the Roman Legions. 10% of
> the Legion/unit were executed by lot.  

Worth his salt, then.

> So decimation of an individual, once or twice would be a form of
> Russian Roulette.

Didn't know the Roman Legionaries played that. What sort of pistol did
they use?

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Giles Todd - 15 Jan 2004 23:28 GMT
> > So decimation of an individual, once or twice would be a form of
> > Russian Roulette.
>
> Didn't know the Roman Legionaries played that. What sort of pistol did
> they use?

A birretum.

Giles.
Robert Bannister - 16 Jan 2004 00:05 GMT
> 10% of the Legion/unit were executed by lot.  

He sort of did that to his wife too.

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Robert Bannister - 16 Jan 2004 00:04 GMT
>>>>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age
>>>>thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Twice.

And then be thrown in the bin(ary file).

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Steve Hayes - 16 Jan 2004 00:22 GMT
>> > Errm, ITYM 2x10^9 and 2x10^12 (and not 512 or 4096)
>> >
>> I should be decimated for that.
>
>Twice.

How about to the power of 9, or 12?

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David - 16 Jan 2004 08:35 GMT
> >> > Errm, ITYM 2x10^9 and 2x10^12 (and not 512 or 4096)
> >> >
> >> I should be decimated for that.
> >
> >Twice.

> How about to the power of 9, or 12?

To whatever your gods are!

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Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 15 Jan 2004 19:08 GMT
> >>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age
> >>thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I make a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> >
> I should be decimated for that.

Then you'd be 90% right!

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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                          bhk@dsl.co.uk
   "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would.  Yet we are
   untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them".
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David - 13 Jan 2004 17:03 GMT
> > > > I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> > And I thought I was insulting!

> All right, thank you for acknowledging that. I apologize. I was
> building up a grudge based on some of your other recent posts, but
> that does't make it right. (I'm tempted to say "to be cheeky," but
> you have no idea how ingrained it is in me not to use British
> expressions.)

> Still, there's truth in what I said up there -- I'm curious as to
> whether you folks in u.c.l.e make a point of keeping that "billion"
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> sure what "billion" means any more when they see it (you kindly gave
> an example whose value could be verified).

Oh, I only use it when communicating with Americans. In a similar way,
I'm awfully fond of "nine-eleven" -- it being both my dog's birthday
and my weight.

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Crackpot

Peter Duncanson - 13 Jan 2004 17:13 GMT
>> > > > I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>I'm awfully fond of "nine-eleven" -- it being both my dog's birthday
>and my weight.

Here's hoping for your sake that the units of your weight are stones and
pounds, not just pounds.

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)

Charles Riggs - 13 Jan 2004 06:48 GMT
>> >> >> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr
>> >> >> Bannister for it was he who suggested it.
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth so I suppose
>one or two might not be included in your list.

You appear to want to make a point about the definition of billion.
The one you are using is outdated, here, there, and everywhere where
English is the native language.

> Just how many do or have
>at any time worked with, or for, the US government?

The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids
don't pay taxes, vote, or perform other rights of citizenry but that
leaves a whole lot of people. I'd think most UKers, too, are very
familiar with many of the quirks of the US government, theirs not
being so different in many respects, yes, minister.
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Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Evan Kirshenbaum - 13 Jan 2004 17:22 GMT
> The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids
> don't pay taxes,

Sure they do.  "The price tag says $4.99, but I'm being charged
$5.40."  First noticeable government intrusion for most kids.

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Dave Fawthrop - 13 Jan 2004 17:36 GMT
| > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids
| > don't pay taxes,
|
| Sure they do.  "The price tag says $4.99, but I'm being charged
| $5.40."  First noticeable government intrusion for most kids.

Anothe daft thing the Merkins do :-(
In the UK and IIRC the EU consumer prices are quoted inclusive of VAT,
so the tag says 5 GBP and we pay GBP.

Dave F
Tony Mountifield - 13 Jan 2004 18:11 GMT
> | > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids
> | > don't pay taxes,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Anothe daft thing the Merkins do :-(

They do it in Canada too (at least according to my limited experience,
which was a visit to BC in 1981).

It's really quite disconcerting if you're not expecting it!

Cheers,
Tony
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Tony Cooper - 13 Jan 2004 23:01 GMT
>| > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids
>| > don't pay taxes,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>In the UK and IIRC the EU consumer prices are quoted inclusive of VAT,
>so the tag says 5 GBP and we pay GBP.

I assume, then, that VAT is the same everywhere in the UK.  Not so
with sales tax.  An item with a retail price of $5.00 will range
anywhere from $5.20 to $5.45 depending on the sales tax rate of the
city or county of purchase.

It would be impossible for a chain like Wal-Mart to display
tax-inclusive prices in ads.

It's not a daft practice, it's a practice based on necessity.
Gwilym Calon - 14 Jan 2004 00:21 GMT
> I assume, then, that VAT is the same everywhere in the UK.

Yes. There are several rates of VAT, according to the type of product. Most
items are charged at standard rate which is 17.5%; domestic fuel is charged at
5%; Petrol (Gas) has a special tax and then VAT is charged on top (so we are
taxed on our tax).

Some items are charged at 0% VAT, and this is treated differently from items
which are exempt (but how exactly, I'm unsure).

Most businesses can reclaim the VAT they pay, so only the end consumer actually
pays the tax.

VAT is a unified EC tax. That is, having paid VAT on goods in one European
Community (EC) country, you do not have to pay again in another EC country. This
means that countries which charge lower rates of VAT can attract shoppers from
other European countries. I guess this similar to the US where a big ticket item
may attract lower tax in one state than another (is that right?).

-------------
GC
Tony Cooper - 14 Jan 2004 03:37 GMT
>> I assume, then, that VAT is the same everywhere in the UK.
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>other European countries. I guess this similar to the US where a big ticket item
>may attract lower tax in one state than another (is that right?).

Yes.  I can save a few pennies by driving less than a mile into the
county adjoining the county I live in.  My county's tax rate is 7%,
and the next over is 6.5%.  

Of more significance, I recently purchased a digital camera online and
paid no sales tax since it was shipped in from out-of-state.  I paid
shipping charges but still saved money.

If I recall correctly, I would have been able to recover VAT on
purchases I made in the UK on my last trip.  I didn't get around to
it, so I forget what was required.  I don't think I paid VAT on
purchases shipped from the shop directly to the US.
Gwilym Calon - 14 Jan 2004 04:35 GMT
> I can save a few pennies by driving less than a mile into the
> county adjoining the county I live in.  My county's tax rate is 7%,
> and the next over is 6.5%.

In the UK, the big deal is the "booze cruise". Thousands of people regularly
take the boat to France to buy wine and spirits. The prices are much cheaper
over there because the UK has very high rates of duty on drinks whereas the
French have almost none.

> I recently purchased a digital camera online and
> paid no sales tax since it was shipped in from out-of-state.  I paid
> shipping charges but still saved money.

In the UK, if we ship goods in from outside the EC, then taxes and duty are
payable. Sometimes this can make the deal more expensive than buying at home.
However, the taxman may not spot every parcel :-).

> If I recall correctly, I would have been able to recover VAT on
> purchases I made in the UK on my last trip.  I didn't get around to
> it, so I forget what was required.  I don't think I paid VAT on
> purchases shipped from the shop directly to the US.

Yes, anyone from outside the EC can reclaim VAT. You just need to fill in a form
and supply copy receipts. Depending on how much you spent, the refund can be
significant, since most goods are charged at 17.5%. See
http://www.hmce.gov.uk/public/vatrefunds/vatrefunds.htm

---------------
GC
Tony Cooper - 14 Jan 2004 06:08 GMT
>> I can save a few pennies by driving less than a mile into the
>> county adjoining the county I live in.  My county's tax rate is 7%,
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>significant, since most goods are charged at 17.5%. See
>http://www.hmce.gov.uk/public/vatrefunds/vatrefunds.htm

17.5%!  Damn.  Still, including VAT, the Pringle cashmere sweaters
were still a good buy.  I wish you hadn't mention the figure, though.
 
david56 - 14 Jan 2004 09:49 GMT
gwilymc@prowebnet.co.uk spake thus:

> > I can save a few pennies by driving less than a mile into the
> > county adjoining the county I live in.  My county's tax rate is 7%,
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> payable. Sometimes this can make the deal more expensive than buying at home.
> However, the taxman may not spot every parcel :-).

There is a lower limit of £18, below which the Customs & Excise will
not try to collect the tax (this may be a concession rather than the
law).  This is handy for buying DVDs and CDs from the USA - American
retailers know this and will post items separately.

Signature

David
=====

Matti Lamprhey - 14 Jan 2004 10:37 GMT
"Gwilym Calon" <gwilymc@prowebnet.co.uk> wrote...

> [...] There are several rates of VAT, according to the type of
> product. Most items are charged at standard rate which is 17.5%;
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Some items are charged at 0% VAT, and this is treated differently from
> items which are exempt (but how exactly, I'm unsure).

There are classes of things which are regarded as conceptually
inappropriate for a value-added tax, and hence you can assume that these
will be exempt in every VAT territory.  Many aspects of financial
dealings, such as the provision of credit facilities, are exempt for
example.

There are other classes of things which it may be judged inappropriate
to tax for political reasons in a given territory, but which are not
exempt on theoretical grounds;  these would be zero-rated in that
territory, but may be taxed in others.  An example would be most food,
printed matter and children's clothing in the UK.

From the supplier's point of view, if the majority of his supplies are
exempt then he will be unable to register for VAT, and hence will pay
VAT just like an end-user.  However, if he makes zero-rated supplies
these will permit him to register for VAT and reclaim it on his
purchases.

Matti
Charles Riggs - 14 Jan 2004 04:12 GMT
>| > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids
>| > don't pay taxes,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>In the UK and IIRC the EU consumer prices are quoted inclusive of VAT,
>so the tag says 5 GBP and we pay GBP.

Yeah, that's real smart. Have your government bury each of your heads
in the sand so you won't know what you're paying for value and what
you're paying in tax. Very undaft, that.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Matthew Huntbach - 14 Jan 2004 09:56 GMT
> Dave Fawthrop <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:

>>| > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids
>>| > don't pay taxes,

>>| Sure they do.  "The price tag says $4.99, but I'm being charged
>>| $5.40."  First noticeable government intrusion for most kids.

>>Anothe daft thing the Merkins do :-(
>>In the UK and IIRC the EU consumer prices are quoted inclusive of VAT,
>>so the tag says 5 GBP and we pay GBP.

> Yeah, that's real smart. Have your government bury each of your heads
> in the sand so you won't know what you're paying for value and what
> you're paying in tax. Very undaft, that.

I had always assumed that while part of the reason prices in the USA
are displayed sans sales tax is because of the variety of different local
sales tax rates, another part of the reason is that Americans have a thing
about tax. As Charles says, the advantage of the American custom is that
it makes it very clear what part of what you are paying is tax. In the
UK the tax which is resented more than any other is council tax, because
instead of being paid completely invisibly like VAT, or almost invisibly
like income tax and national insurance for those on PAYE, you do have to
pay it yourself in a visible way that involves you taking the initiative.

For those of us used to the invisible sales tax, however, the USA custom
seems strange. It just seems odd that when you have a quoted price for
something you're buying, you have to remember that the sales assistant
is going to expect you to pay more than that. Also it seems cumbersome
that since the displayed price is the rounded one, the price you actually
pay is some odd figure which involves an accumulation of small change you
either have to pay or is given to you if you pay with notes. In the UK
if the price is 4.99, you hand over a fiver and get a penny back - the
99p habit is a silly one, but we all know why they do it and if you
keep making purchases like that all you end up with is a few pennies.
In the USA, you will find that the displayed 4.99 actually means some
odd figures like 5.37 or 5.43 - it's not even rounded to the nearest 10c.
So if you make a series of small purchases, you end up with a mountain
of coins in your pocket. When you get fed up with this, you start
carefully counting up the odd 37c or whatever to try and get rid of
some of this mountain. Is this what those of you used to this system do,
or is there something else you do with the accumulation of small change
you get from your system? In the UK, counting out the exact amount in
small change is regarded as an annoying thing which is likely to get you
exasperated stares from the sales assistant and anyone standing in the
queue behind you.

Matthew Huntbach
david56 - 14 Jan 2004 10:43 GMT
mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk spake thus:

> I had always assumed that while part of the reason prices in the USA
> are displayed sans sales tax is because of the variety of different local
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> like income tax and national insurance for those on PAYE, you do have to
> pay it yourself in a visible way that involves you taking the initiative.

It must be remembered that the council tax we pay only funds about
25% of the cost of local government - the rest is granted by central
government.  I think this is why the tax is resented - if the council
wishes to splash out and spend 10% more than last year, the increase
in council tax will be 40%.

Signature

David
=====

Matti Lamprhey - 14 Jan 2004 11:04 GMT
"david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote...

> It must be remembered that the council tax we pay only funds about
> 25% of the cost of local government - the rest is granted by central
> government.  I think this is why the tax is resented - if the council
> wishes to splash out and spend 10% more than last year, the increase
> in council tax will be 40%.

But it works in reverse too:  if the council saves 10% overall it can
reduce its council tax by 40%!

Matti
-- dreaming on
Matthew Huntbach - 14 Jan 2004 11:57 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english david56 <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk spake thus:

>> In the
>> UK the tax which is resented more than any other is council tax, because
>> instead of being paid completely invisibly like VAT, or almost invisibly
>> like income tax and national insurance for those on PAYE, you do have to
>> pay it yourself in a visible way that involves you taking the initiative.

> It must be remembered that the council tax we pay only funds about
> 25% of the cost of local government - the rest is granted by central
> government.  I think this is why the tax is resented - if the council
> wishes to splash out and spend 10% more than last year, the increase
> in council tax will be 40%.

As a councillor, I am acutely aware of this. However, most members of the
public are not. Most people are only vaguely aware of all that the council
has to spend out on, think it is all paid for by council tax, and still
think council tax is too high. It may be that councillors and a few
political wonks resent council tax for the gearing effect you mention, but
I would guess 95% of the public have no idea that it works this way, and
resent their council even more because they see it as increasing the tax
by a large amount for a marginal increase in service (or these days for
a standstill since for various social reasons the need for and expense
of council services is rising at a much faster rate than general inflation).

Matthew Huntbach
Evan Kirshenbaum - 14 Jan 2004 18:57 GMT
> I had always assumed that while part of the reason prices in the USA
> are displayed sans sales tax is because of the variety of different
> local sales tax rates, another part of the reason is that Americans
> have a thing about tax. As Charles says, the advantage of the
> American custom is that it makes it very clear what part of what you
> are paying is tax.

Right on both counts.  Where taxes passed on to the consumer are
invisible, the resentment over high prices tends to be incorrectly
aimed at the seller.  (This isn't as much of a problem with taxes that
are uniform across the country and which have stable rates.)  A prime
example is the taxes on gasoline.  I believe I recall gas stations
getting in trouble for posting a breakdown of just how much of the
pump price went to taxes.

> In the UK the tax which is resented more than any other is council
> tax, because instead of being paid completely invisibly like VAT, or
> almost invisibly like income tax and national insurance for those on
> PAYE, you do have to pay it yourself in a visible way that involves
> you taking the initiative.

Income tax and a few others (e.g., social security, unemployment) are
"withheld" from your paycheck, so it's more-or-less invisible,
although it is itemized on the statement you get with each paycheck
(or, more commonly these days, in lieu of a paycheck when the money
gets deposited into your bank account).  The social security tax has a
funny twist in that it's nominally split between you and your
employer, and only the amount that "you" pay is visible, so most
people don't realize that they're actually paying double what they
see.[1]  For income tax, it becomes completely visible once a year
when you file your tax return, but most people pay attention to the
"net" (of withholding) line rather than the gross, which leads to the
perverse sight of people being *happy* that they're "getting a refund"
rather than being upset that the large amount they've already payed is
more than even the government can demand with a straight face.

[1] More or less.  The payroll tax (the employer part of the social
   security "contribution") is part of the overall employee cost, so
   to a first-order approximation, it's part of what your employer
   thinks it's worth to pay for your services, and they should be
   indifferent about whether they pay it to the government or to you.
   In reality, if it were eliminated, you would expect wages to rise,
   but not to the full extent of the savings, resulting in higher
   take-home pay and lower employee cost.

> In the USA, you will find that the displayed 4.99 actually means
> some odd figures like 5.37 or 5.43 - it's not even rounded to the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> annoying thing which is likely to get you exasperated stares from
> the sales assistant and anyone standing in the queue behind you.

It's interesting that you should say that.  When I was in the UK for
the first time last year, one of the things that I noticed was that
the monetary value of the coins in my pocket was typically quite a bit
greater than I was used to.  This largely, of course, had to do with
the fact that pounds are coins rather than bills, but I seemed to
accumulate a fair number of the other coins as well.

In the US, you see a distinction between people who are good with
money (which doesn't necessarily mean good at math, just those who
have had experience dealing with coins) and those who aren't.  Those
who aren't will simply accumulate change during the day and dump it in
a jar when they get home.  For the rest of us, I'd say that it's
unusual to have more than three quarters and more than about thirty
cents in other coins in your pocket.  Typically, if you've got change,
you'll use some of it (in easily counted quantities) to pay "over but
near" the amount.  So if the bill involved 37 cents, most people who
had change would hand over 40, 45, or 50 cents, unless they had the
two pennies, in which case they'd hand over 37, 42, 47, or 52 cents,
resulting in a net reduction in the amount of change in your pocket.
This doesn't involve any "counting out".  Most of us do it
automatically.  In many places, the pennies are irrelevant, as the
register will have a penny bowl, where if you need one or two pennies,
you just take them from the bowl, and if you get one or two pennies in
change, you drop them in the bowl.  In any case, for many of us,
whatever change you have at the end of the day goes into a jar, to be
counted and rolled and deposited in the bank "eventually".

We do the same sort of thing with bills, angling to not accumulate one
dollar bills.  So it wouldn't b at all uncommon to see $21.02
proffered for your $5.37 bill.  A good cashier won't bat an eye, and
will simply grab a nickel ("42"), a dime ("52"), two quarters
("6.02"), a five ("11.02"), and a ten ("21.02").  A poor one will
punch it in and be surprised at the reasonably round $15.65 the
register displays.  (The good one may not have been able to tell you
without thinking about it that they handed you $15.65 in change, but
you'll get the right amount.)

Signature

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   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |Liberty, to purchase a little
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                                      |Liberty nor Safety.
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   (650)857-7572

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Molly Mockford - 14 Jan 2004 19:35 GMT
Since we're wildly off-topic already:

>So it wouldn't b at all uncommon to see $21.02
>proffered for your $5.37 bill.  A good cashier won't bat an eye, and
>will simply grab a nickel ("42"), a dime ("52"), two quarters

What happened to the half-dollar?  I'm sure I've got a couple somewhere
in the house, and I'm going to the States this summer and had been
planning to look them out.  Are they no longer legal tender?  (They are
silvery-coloured, about the size of a shilling - which may not help you
much - and I think had an eagle on them.)
Signature

Molly Mockford
I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that
lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Pat Durkin - 14 Jan 2004 20:09 GMT
> Since we're wildly off-topic already:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> silvery-coloured, about the size of a shilling - which may not help you
> much - and I think had an eagle on them.)

They are legal tender, and are still in circulation.  I don't know why they
appear to be rare.  Maybe some people are hoarding them.

As to common use, since there appears to have never been any single product
marketed in dispensing machines for fifty cents (even postage stamps), and
no gambling slot machines devoted to them, there is little demand for them.
I expect the US Mint doesn't see much need for re-designing the next issue,
either.
Tony Cooper - 14 Jan 2004 22:36 GMT
>> Since we're wildly off-topic already:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>They are legal tender, and are still in circulation.  I don't know why they
>appear to be rare.  Maybe some people are hoarding them.

The Franklin half dollars (1948 to 1963) are worth about double their
face value because of their silver content.  Kennedy half dollars
dated 1964 are also worth about a buck.  Kennedy half dollars dated
1965 to 1970 also have silver content (40%) and will go for above
their face value if they are in good condition.

Some people are aware that some half dollars are worth more than 50
cents and will hang on to them.
Molly Mockford - 14 Jan 2004 22:50 GMT
>The Franklin half dollars (1948 to 1963) are worth about double their
>face value because of their silver content.  Kennedy half dollars
>dated 1964 are also worth about a buck.  Kennedy half dollars dated
>1965 to 1970 also have silver content (40%) and will go for above
>their face value if they are in good condition.

I think mine are probably Kennedys - I picked them up when Nixon was on
the throne.  I vaguely remember a friend telling me to hang on to them
at the time.
Signature

Molly Mockford
I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that
lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Tony Cooper - 14 Jan 2004 23:38 GMT
>>The Franklin half dollars (1948 to 1963) are worth about double their
>>face value because of their silver content.  Kennedy half dollars
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I think mine are probably Kennedys - I picked them up when Nixon was on
>the throne.

Scarped them up on a visit to the White House, did you?  LBJ
supposedly did a lot of business when he was on the throne.

(Do I have to include a smiley?  I really don't like those things.
Does "on the throne" translate cross-pond?)
Molly Mockford - 15 Jan 2004 00:00 GMT
>Does "on the throne" translate cross-pond?)

It does.  I didn't know whether you left-pondians knew it, though, which
is why I dropped it in.
Signature

Molly Mockford
I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that
lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Tony Cooper - 15 Jan 2004 03:07 GMT
>>>The Franklin half dollars (1948 to 1963) are worth about double their
>>>face value because of their silver content.  Kennedy half dollars
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>(Do I have to include a smiley?  I really don't like those things.
>Does "on the throne" translate cross-pond?)

The word isn't "scarped", is it?  Scarfed, I think.  I've made this
mistake before.  "Scarped" seems right, but I don't think it is.
"Scarfed" seem right for gobbling up food, but not grabbing up
objects.
Skitt - 15 Jan 2004 03:15 GMT
>>>> The Franklin half dollars (1948 to 1963) are worth about double
>>>> their face value because of their silver content.  Kennedy half
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> "Scarfed" seem right for gobbling up food, but not grabbing up
> objects.

I thought you had mistyped "scraped", but that doesn't quite fit, does it?
"Snatched" is the closest I can think of right now.

Signature

Skitt (in SF Bay Area)
... information is gushing toward your brain like a fire hose aimed
at a teacup.      -- Dogbert

Matti Lamprhey - 15 Jan 2004 09:25 GMT
"Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com> wrote...

> >Scarped them up on a visit to the White House, did you?  LBJ
> >supposedly did a lot of business when he was on the throne.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> "Scarfed" seem right for gobbling up food, but not grabbing up
> objects.

Leftpondia "scarfed" = Rightpondia "scoffed".

Matti
Matthew Huntbach - 15 Jan 2004 09:17 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english Molly Mockford <nospam@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:

> What happened to the half-dollar?  I'm sure I've got a couple somewhere
> in the house, and I'm going to the States this summer and had been
> planning to look them out.  Are they no longer legal tender?  (They are
> silvery-coloured, about the size of a shilling - which may not help you
> much - and I think had an eagle on them.)

I have heard it said that half-dollars were normal circulating coins
in the USA until the introduction of the Kennedy half-dollar. People
thought this was meant to be a commemorative coin, put them away every time
they got one, this caused half dollars to become rare in circulation,
and people got out of the habit of using them.

The crown coin in the UK also went through a process, around the start
of the 20th century, of switching from a normally circulating coin to one
intended only for ornamentation.

Matthew Huntbach
Evan Kirshenbaum - 15 Jan 2004 17:39 GMT
> What happened to the half-dollar?  I'm sure I've got a couple
> somewhere in the house, and I'm going to the States this summer and
> had been planning to look them out.  Are they no longer legal
> tender?  (They are silvery-coloured, about the size of a shilling -
> which may not help you much - and I think had an eagle on them.)

They're still legal tender and still minted--but not much.  In 2003,
five million of them were made, compared to 2.3 billion quarters, two
billion dimes, eight hundred million nickels, and nearly seven billion
pennies.  They suffer from several problems, all of which stem from
(and therefore contribute to) their rarity.  First, they're too large
to fit in most vending machines or parking meters.  Second, most
places that deal with coins have slots in their trays for pennies,
nickels, dimes, and quarters.  When they get half dollars, they have
to be put somewhere else, and they therefore tend to not get given
back in change, but rather get deposited in the bank.  Also, because
of the slots, stores don't buy rolls of them to use to prime their
cash registers.  Finally, because they're rare, when people come
across them, they tend to save them, which adds to the rarity.

Also, they don't really serve a purpose.  There's nothing a half
dollar can do that two quarters can't, and the quarters are more
flexible, so there's no real savings in the amount of change that
people get.

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Matti Lamprhey - 14 Jan 2004 22:04 GMT
"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote...

> [...]  When I was in the UK for
> the first time last year, one of the things that I noticed was that
> the monetary value of the coins in my pocket was typically quite a bit
> greater than I was used to.  This largely, of course, had to do with
> the fact that pounds are coins rather than bills, but I seemed to
> accumulate a fair number of the other coins as well. [...]

This could soon get "worse";  I heard a chappie in the Bank of England
today saying that the five-pound-note is now worth less in real terms
than the one-pound-note was when it was replaced by a coin.  I infer
from this that a five-pound-coin may be in the offing.

Matti
David - 14 Jan 2004 22:48 GMT
> "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote...
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > coins rather than bills, but I seemed to accumulate a fair number
> > of the other coins as well. [...]

> This could soon get "worse";  I heard a chappie in the Bank of
> England today saying that the five-pound-note is now worth less in
> real terms than the one-pound-note was when it was replaced by a
> coin.  I infer from this that a five-pound-coin may be in the offing.

Given that a pound today is worth roughly what a bob was worth when Ah
wor a lad, it seems reasonable to start the notes at ten quid.

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Robert Bannister - 15 Jan 2004 00:21 GMT
> Right on both counts.  Where taxes passed on to the consumer are
> invisible, the resentment over high prices tends to be incorrectly
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> getting in trouble for posting a breakdown of just how much of the
> pump price went to taxes.

We're having a furore at the moment with petrol going over the $A1.00
per litre mark for the first time in ages. The petrol companies are
trying to blame it on taxes, but as an American writer in this morning's
Letters to the Editor pointed out, without taxes the petrol still works
out at 50c (Australian) per litre, which is more than the gross price
the same company sells gasoline for in America.
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Rob Bannister

david56 - 15 Jan 2004 10:06 GMT
robban@it.net.au spake thus:

> > Right on both counts.  Where taxes passed on to the consumer are
> > invisible, the resentment over high prices tends to be incorrectly
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> out at 50c (Australian) per litre, which is more than the gross price
> the same company sells gasoline for in America.

That's about 20p.  Petrol here in the UK is about 75p per litre, of
which about 75% is tax (although it varies as there is a fixed
component unrelated to the selling price).  This makes our petrol
about 20p per litre before tax as well.  Last time I was in the USA,
petrol had gone a little over $1 a gallon which is about 25p per
litre.  Who knows how much tax is paid on US gas?

Across France, petrol is between €1.00 and €1.20 per litre, which is
much the same as in the UK.

Signature

David
=====

Evan Kirshenbaum - 15 Jan 2004 17:29 GMT
> robban@it.net.au spake thus:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> > litre, which is more than the gross price the same company sells
> > gasoline for in America.

$1.47/gal?  I haven't seen that in *years*.  We're all happy here in
the Bay Area that in the last couple of months gas has gotten down to
$1.65/gal rather than $2.00.

> That's about 20p.  Petrol here in the UK is about 75p per litre, of
> which about 75% is tax (although it varies as there is a fixed
> component unrelated to the selling price).  This makes our petrol
> about 20p per litre before tax as well.  Last time I was in the USA,
> petrol had gone a little over $1 a gallon which is about 25p per
> litre.  Who knows how much tax is paid on US gas?

They do:

 http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/statistics/gas_taxes_by_state_2002.html

In July, 2002, with the exception of Alaska, taxes ranged from a low
of 30.6 cents/gal to a high of 53.5 cents/gal.  Here in California, it
was 50.4 cents/gal, and the national average (normalized by
consumption) was 42 cents/gal.

So before taxes, that puts us here at about $1.05/gal, which is 28
cents a liter, or about 15p/liter.  In July, 2002, we were paying
about $1.95/gal, so before taxes it was $1.45/gal, which is 38
cents/liter or 21p/liter.

Pretty much the same then.  Perhaps a little cheaper now (although I
don't know whether tax rates have gone down).  It looks as though
nearly all the difference in prices is due to taxes, with us paying
about 30% in taxes and you paying about 75%.

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Robert Bannister - 16 Jan 2004 00:09 GMT
>>robban@it.net.au spake thus:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the Bay Area that in the last couple of months gas has gotten down to
> $1.65/gal rather than $2.00.

The writer claimed Atlanta. Who knows how long since he last visited his
home country.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Aaron J. Dinkin - 15 Jan 2004 03:42 GMT
> We do the same sort of thing with bills, angling to not accumulate one
> dollar bills.

Actually, I _do_ aim to accumulate one-dollar bills. There's little more
frustrating than being stranded at a vending machine with nothing but a
twenty.

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 15 Jan 2004 07:35 GMT
> either have to pay or is given to you if you pay with notes. In the UK
> if the price is 4.99, you hand over a fiver and get a penny back - the
> 99p habit is a silly one, but we all know why they do it and if you
> keep making purchases like that all you end up with is a few pennies.

Do we "all know why they do it"?  Do YOU know why such prices as "one and
elevenpence three-farthings" were popular in the UK a century ago, and
why these mutated into today's *.99?

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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                          bhk@dsl.co.uk
   "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would.  Yet we are
   untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them".
                                             George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919

Ben Zimmer - 15 Jan 2004 08:24 GMT
> > either have to pay or is given to you if you pay with notes. In the UK
> > if the price is 4.99, you hand over a fiver and get a penny back - the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> elevenpence three-farthings" were popular in the UK a century ago, and
> why these mutated into today's *.99?

There was a thread on so-called "odd pricing" (also called "odd-even
pricing") over on alt.folklore.urban last year:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3EFB557C.873F4867@midway.uchicago.edu

In the US, the "$X.99" pricing scheme is generally attributed to R. H.
Macy & Co. in the late nineteenth century.  Some claim that Rowland Macy
came up with odd pricing in order to keep clerks honest by forcing them
to make change.  A more likely explanation is that Macy & Co. had an
early handle on consumer psychology and knew that such pricing would
appeal to bargain hunters.  I'd guess that Macy's marketing principles
then spread transpondially.
Matthew Huntbach - 15 Jan 2004 09:09 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote:

>> either have to pay or is given to you if you pay with notes. In the UK
>> if the price is 4.99, you hand over a fiver and get a penny back - the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> elevenpence three-farthings" were popular in the UK a century ago, and
> why these mutated into today's *.99?

General opinion is because 4.99 looks like "4 and a bit more" and hence
a lot less than 5. Although I've also heard explanations about it forcing
sales assistants to open the till. The latter explanations don't explain
why in a sueprmarket where you just pile a whole load of things into a
trolley, it's still the case that a lot of item prices end in 9.

Does anyne else follow my habit of protesting about *.99 prices by paying
the 99p exactly in small change?

Matthew Huntbach
david56 - 15 Jan 2004 10:09 GMT
mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk spake thus:

> In uk.culture.language.english Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote:
>  
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Does anyne else follow my habit of protesting about *.99 prices by paying
> the 99p exactly in small change?

But surely we're all immune to it now?  I translate these prices
without conscious effort - £4.99 is pronounced "five pounds" and
£2998 is pronounced "three thousand pounds".  And houses are priced
in the same way: £369,950 is pronounced "three hundred and seventy
thousand pounds".

Signature

David
=====

Robert Bannister - 15 Jan 2004 00:16 GMT
>>| > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids
>>| > don't pay taxes,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> in the sand so you won't know what you're paying for value and what
> you're paying in tax. Very undaft, that.

Do you have VAT *and* sales tax in Ireland? About the only good thing
that happened when the Australian government brought in its GST (Goods &
Services Tax) was the abolition of most if not all sales tax.
Signature

Rob Bannister

Charles Riggs - 14 Jan 2004 04:11 GMT
>> The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids
>> don't pay taxes,
>
>Sure they do.  "The price tag says $4.99, but I'm being charged
>$5.40."  First noticeable government intrusion for most kids.

Filling out a 1040 involves you with the government. Paying a sales
tax, for a kid, does not
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Evan Kirshenbaum - 14 Jan 2004 17:56 GMT
> >> The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids
> >> don't pay taxes,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Filling out a 1040 involves you with the government. Paying a sales
> tax, for a kid, does not

What's your definition of "involves"?  Sales tax is the first
noticeable interaction with the government for most kids.  If you mean
that the government has to notice you, that happens when you get a
social security number, which is usually at birth these days, and
certainly before the next time your parents file a tax return.

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R F - 15 Jan 2004 05:45 GMT
> What's your definition of "involves"?  Sales tax is the first
> noticeable interaction with the government for most kids.

I'd think it would be kindergarten.
Sara Lorimer - 14 Jan 2004 16:46 GMT
> > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids
> > don't pay taxes,
>
> Sure they do.  "The price tag says $4.99, but I'm being charged
> $5.40."  First noticeable government intrusion for most kids.

Archie McPhee's, a store in Seattle that sells many small, weird, toys,
has (had?) a penny jar by the register. Instead of the usual "Need a
penny, take a penny" sign, it reads "Pennies for kids who don't
understand sales tax."

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ess el five six zero at columbia dot edu  <http://pirate-women.com>

Dave Fawthrop - 08 Jan 2004 14:19 GMT
| What's the BBC World News? To my knowledge, it is not broadcast in the
| UK. I watch BBC news broadcasts daily and we don't get your version of
| it in Ireland.

Maybe they IRA blew up the transmitters in Ireland.

BBC World News is broadcast as part of  BBC World Service Radio on Digital
$ky and Freeview 80, in the UK.

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Dave Fawthrop <dave@hyphenologist.co.uk> Sick of Direct Marketing
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Mickwick - 08 Jan 2004 14:39 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Dave Fawthrop wrote:
>On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 09:05:57 +0000, Charles Riggs <CHANGE@aircom.net>

>| What's the BBC World News? To my knowledge, it is not broadcast in the
>| UK. I watch BBC news broadcasts daily and we don't get your version of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>BBC World News is broadcast as part of  BBC World Service Radio on Digital
>$ky and Freeview 80, in the UK.

And BBC World is a largely news-based television station that is
available in the UK from one of those weird analogue satellites full of
Hollywood thrillers and British costume dramas whose original
soundtracks are just about audible beneath running translations in
basso-profundo Polish. Also camel racing, 'Feh-feh-feh-feh-feh
scorchio!' game shows and, occasionally, soccer internationals that are
only available in the UK by subscription.

Signature

Mickwick

Charles Riggs - 09 Jan 2004 07:54 GMT
>| What's the BBC World News? To my knowledge, it is not broadcast in the
>| UK. I watch BBC news broadcasts daily and we don't get your version of
>| it in Ireland.
>
>Maybe they IRA blew up the transmitters in Ireland.

The IRA are a nicer crowd than they once were. The transmitters were
never here to blow up, even if they weren't.

>BBC World News is broadcast as part of  BBC World Service Radio on Digital
>$ky and Freeview 80, in the UK.

I see. Unfortunately, neither digital radio nor Freeview is available
to us. I can't get BBC3 or BBC4, unless I get a dish again, either. I
can get the time signal from the UK though, so my clocks are to the
second when I sync them to my radio clock. Not that anything runs on
time in this country to make it important, but I still have some
American blood in me.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 08:36 GMT
| >| What's the BBC World News? To my knowledge, it is not broadcast in the
| >| UK. I watch BBC news broadcasts daily and we don't get your version of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
|
| The IRA are a nicer crowd than they once were.

ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO

Nice crowd who ***STILL*** have hidden arsenals of Heavy machine guns,
AK47, Semtex, hand guns etc.   They will never be nice guys, even after
they have served proper sentences for all the crimes they have committed.
Killing small boys in Warrington and shopkeepers in London is wrong or
haven't you noticed.  

They are rivaled by the Red hand Unionists et. al. who are equally
despicable.

These two groups are only slightly more despicable than those who support
them, by:   Financial aid, (Noraid et. al.), Joining political
organizations which de facto support them.   Joining tribal organizations
which encourage the tribes to do things separately.  

The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO  the
children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.

Dave F
Peter Duncanson - 09 Jan 2004 11:27 GMT
>The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO  the
>children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.

This is largely at the insistence of the Catholic Church, whose
spokespersons point out that they have separate schools for their kids in
exactly the same way as Catholics in England, Scotland and Wales do.

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)

Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 12:00 GMT
| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO  the
| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.
|
| This is largely at the insistence of the Catholic Church, whose
| spokespersons point out that they have separate schools for their kids in
| exactly the same way as Catholics in England, Scotland and Wales do.

Perhaps the spokesperson is a Jesuit, and skilled in the art of saying one
thing while meaning another.

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Peter Duncanson - 09 Jan 2004 12:14 GMT
>| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO  the
>| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Perhaps the spokesperson is a Jesuit, and skilled in the art of saying one
>thing while meaning another.

Not a Jesuit - it is a standard line taken by Catholic Church spokespersons
of all varieties.

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)

Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 12:24 GMT
| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO  the
| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
| Not a Jesuit - it is a standard line taken by Catholic Church spokespersons
| of all varieties.

They are still, knowingly, in part, a cause of Northern Irish Troubles, but
would not wish to *say* that.

Dave F
Peter Duncanson - 09 Jan 2004 13:14 GMT
>| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO  the
>| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>They are still, knowingly, in part, a cause of Northern Irish Troubles, but
>would not wish to *say* that.

No they would not wish to say that.

The difficulty of their position is that they are doing what they believe is
required by God and by the Church as the appointed instrument of God. [1]

There are initiatives by the Catholic Church in Northern Ireland to have
organised contacts between Catholic and non-Catholic kids [2].  However,
they wish to do this in such a way that there is no risk of spiritual harm
to the Catholic kids.

One of the difficulties is that social separation becomes a vicious circle.
There seem to be many priests and bishops who have always lived in a purely
Catholic environment. To some of them, neigbouring non-Catholics can be more
incomprehensible and alien than fellow Catholics in the most exotic parts of
the world.

[1] The position of the Catholic Church is that is has a God-given,
exclusive, right and duty to propagate the truth and to prescribe and
organise religious activity. It has a monopoly from God.

[2] I am using the term non-Catholic in the way in which it is used by the
Catholic Church. Many religious non-Catholics would themselves tend to
object to this term and use instead non-Roman Catholic.

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)

Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 14:04 GMT
| >| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO  the
| >| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
|
| No they would not wish to say that.

But it is true that

| >They are still, knowingly, in part, a cause of Northern Irish Troubles,

As are the Unionist parties and organisations

| The difficulty of their position is that they are doing what they believe is
| required by God and by the Church as the appointed instrument of God. [1]
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
| Catholic Church. Many religious non-Catholics would themselves tend to
| object to this term and use instead non-Roman Catholic.

Absolute sophistry.

We are all responsible for the results of our actions.

Dave F

Dave F
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 14:25 GMT
>Absolute sophistry.
>
>We are all responsible for the results of our actions.

I don't think you can use the word "sophistry" in connection with any
religious belief.  The charge of "sophistry" only works when there is
intent to deceive and the charge is leveled to expose the fallacy used
in the reasoning.

No matter how wildly unreasonable a statement based on a religious
belief is, there is no intent to deceive.  The statement is based on
strong conviction and believed true by the person making the
statement.
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 14:45 GMT
| >Absolute sophistry.
| >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
| intent to deceive and the charge is leveled to expose the fallacy used
| in the reasoning.

That is what I meant, They intend to deceive.

| No matter how wildly unreasonable a statement based on a religious
| belief is, there is no intent to deceive.  The statement is based on
| strong conviction and believed true by the person making the
| statement.

I can not believe that any person calling him/her self a Christian could
support and defend any action which, de facto, supports terrorism.

Dave F  
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 15:24 GMT
>| >Absolute sophistry.
>| >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>That is what I meant, They intend to deceive.

>| No matter how wildly unreasonable a statement based on a religious
>| belief is, there is no intent to deceive.  The statement is based on
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>I can not believe that any person calling him/her self a Christian could
>support and defend any action which, de facto, supports terrorism.

Why make Christians more accountable than any other religion?  Why
should present-day Christians be any less terroristic than the
Christians over the past 200 centuries?  All this "turn the other
cheek" stuff is mere sophistry from the truly religious.  They just
want the diversion so they can get their licks in first.
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 13:24 GMT
>| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO  the
>| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>They are still, knowingly, in part, a cause of Northern Irish Troubles, but
>would not wish to *say* that.

Ahh, I take it you are one of those that would like to drum them out.
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 14:07 GMT
| >| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO  the
| >| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
|
| Ahh, I take it you are one of those that would like to drum them out.

No I would wish to see Northern Irish children going to school and playing
together.     If that were to happen all "troubles" would end in a
generation.

Dave F
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 15:15 GMT
>| >| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO  the
>| >| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>together.     If that were to happen all "troubles" would end in a
>generation.

I think you missed the allusion.  I also think your spectacles are
rose-tinted if not orange-tinted.

I wish that our own "troubles" here in the US could have been cured in
the first generation after Brown vs Board of Education in 1954.  

The only way to truly end the "troubles" in one generation is to
completely remove all children from their parents and all influence by
their parents.  When one father is beating the Lambeg drum in a
parade, and the other father is marking his neighborhood by painting
the tricolour on kerbs, not much is accomplished by the children going
to the same school.

If you could implement a program of all children in NI going to the
same school, which school program would you eliminate?
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 15:24 GMT
| >| >| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO  the
| >| >| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
| I think you missed the allusion.  I also think your spectacles are
| rose-tinted if not orange-tinted.

You clearly can not even envisage an independent point of view.
Your posts show that you are yet another Bigot.

I am a Yorkshire Tyke born and bred.
If you read upthread you will find that I roundly condemn both sets of
terrorists, their supportors, Churches, and tribes.

Dave F
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 16:23 GMT
>| >| >They are still, knowingly, in part, a cause of Northern Irish Troubles, but
>| >| >would not wish to *say* that.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>You clearly can not even envisage an independent point of view.
>Your posts show that you are yet another Bigot.

Bigot?  Hardly.  A realistic point of view is no less independent.  

>I am a Yorkshire Tyke born and bred.
>If you read upthread you will find that I roundly condemn both sets of
>terrorists, their supportors, Churches, and tribes.

As do I.  I don't think anything I've said reflects bigotry in any
way, is supportive of either side, or lays blame to either side.  

As a Catholic, your comments do come across to me as rather
irritatingly and typically insensitive.  You suggest all children go
to the same school.  You duck the question of "which school", but it's
obvious that your thinking is that the Catholics should be the ones to
do the giving up.  The extrapolation of your position is that if the
Catholics give up all vestiges of Catholicism, then the "troubles"
will be over.  Oliver Cromwell and Tomás de Torquemada used similar
thinking.

But, you are correct if you feel that I don't envision that the
solution is the elimination of one of the group's customs and the
exposure of children of one religion to the children of another
religion.  It's not that simple.  

Your view is also irritatingly simplistic in blaming the "troubles"
solely on religious differences.  

You might want to look up "bigot" before you fling the word about.  It
means "a person that is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or
her own opinions and prejudices".  When you obstinately cling to the
view that integrating children in schools is the solution to a
problem, and reject out of hand that parental influence is the greater
problem, that's pretty close to bigotry.  Simply condemning the
extremists on both sides does not make one innocent of bigotry.
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 17:25 GMT
| >| I think you missed the allusion.  I also think your spectacles are
| >| rose-tinted if not orange-tinted.

Anyone

| >You clearly can not even envisage an independent point of view.
| >Your posts show that you are yet another Bigot.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
|
| As a Catholic,

You have here declared your tribe.

| You might want to look up "bigot" before you fling the word about.  It
| means "a person that is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or
| her own opinions and prejudices".

i.e. Catholicism and the refusal to accept its direct involvement in the
?troubles?.   Perhaps you also defend your Churches deliberate and knowing
defense, of pedophile priests

Saying:
| >| orange-tinted.
Is a classic sign of a Bigot.
The other tribe or anyone who does not suport my tribe is a member of the
other tribe and must be attacked at any opportunity.

Saying "green tinted" would indicate the same.

Dave F
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 03:50 GMT
>| As a Catholic,
>
>You have here declared your tribe.

You might say so.  I prefer to say that I have declared my bias.  It
would be deceptive, in my opinion, to argue this point without doing
so.

>| You might want to look up "bigot" before you fling the word about.  It
>| means "a person that is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or
>| her own opinions and prejudices".
>
>i.e. Catholicism and the refusal to accept its direct involvement in the
>?troubles?.

If you are going to discuss the issue, try to marshall your thoughts
before writing.  What's the reference to above?  Is the Catholic
church refusing to accept involvement in the troubles?  Am I refusing
to accept the Catholic church's direct involvement?  Is the Catholic
church refusing to become directly involved with solving the problems?

>Perhaps you also defend your Churches deliberate and knowing
>defense, of pedophile priests

No.  I neither defend nor deny the church's toleration, cover-ups, or
lack of effective controls.  That said, what has that to do with this?
Or, is it just a random shot and about as relative to the troubles in
Northern Ireland as a gratuitous mention on my part of Peter Sutcliffe
as example of a Yorkshire Tyke?

>Saying:
>| >| orange-tinted.
>Is a classic sign of a Bigot.

Classic?  Please.

>The other tribe or anyone who does not suport my tribe is a member of the
>other tribe and must be attacked at any opportunity.

The attack is on the thinking, or the lack of it.  Fuzzy thinking is
not a tribal issue.

>Saying "green tinted" would indicate the same.
Mike Stevens - 10 Jan 2004 01:12 GMT
> As a Catholic, your comments do come across to me as rather
> irritatingly and typically insensitive.  You suggest all children go
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> exposure of children of one religion to the children of another
> religion.  It's not that simple.

I have no first-hand experience of the education system in Northern
Ireland, but I used to know quite a few people who worked in it.  From
what they told me, the situation there was (and probably still is) that
almost every school in the province was/is either institutionally Roman
Catholic or institutionally Protestant.  There were/are few that are
neither, which admit children from both communities and offer a secular
education.  Some people think that if the NI education system was
reformed so that the majority of schools were of the third kind, then
the polarisation between the two communities would gradually be eroded.

--
Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.yk
Old grammarians never die, they simply parse away.
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 08:14 GMT
>> As a Catholic, your comments do come across to me as rather
>> irritatingly and typically insensitive.  You suggest all children go
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>reformed so that the majority of schools were of the third kind, then
>the polarisation between the two communities would gradually be eroded.

Your phrasing is quite different than Fawthorp's.  His statement was:
"No I would wish to see Northern Irish children going to school and
playing together.   If that were to happen all "troubles" would end in
a generation."

Gradual erosion is not accomplished in a generation.  As I brought up
in an earlier post, we (legally) required desegregation of our schools
in 1954.  We are still trying to erode the polarization between the
two communities involved.  We have made progress, but the process is
very much ongoing.

The statement is also too simplistic in that it ascribes all of the
reasons for the "troubles" to be based on the two communities not
getting on together as individuals.  This completely ignores the
economic factors that are core to the problem.  

A secular school system may offer some advantages somewhere along the
line.  But, if you insist that all children attend only a secular
school, you are forcing people to give up their religious custom  If
you offer a choice, the secular schools may not be chosen.  Either
way, though, there wouldn't be that much difference in a generation.
Dave Fawthrop - 10 Jan 2004 08:34 GMT
| The statement is also too simplistic in that it ascribes all of the
| reasons for the "troubles" to be based on the two communities not
| getting on together as individuals.  This completely ignores the
| economic factors that are core to the problem.  

A circular argument, and problem:  
The economic factors are caused by the two communities being at war.  
The war makes sure that no sensible person will invest in Northern Ireland.
The British Government invests in NI without expecting a return.

Dave F
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 19:46 GMT
>| The statement is also too simplistic in that it ascribes all of the
>| reasons for the "troubles" to be based on the two communities not
>| getting on together as individuals.  This completely ignores the
>| economic factors that are core to the problem.  
>
>A circular argument, and problem:  

>The economic factors are caused by the two communities being at war.  

Again, too simplistic.  Not untrue, but superficial.  The unemployment
rate in East Belfast (Protestant) was 4.7% in 1999.  The unemployment
rate in West Belfast (Catholic) was 16% for the same period.  To
simply say the economy is bad because the factions are warring ignores
the conditions that keep the warring going.  

There is also the factor that certain participants on both sides
*want* the problems to continue.  Without the problems, they have no
function.  

>The war makes sure that no sensible person will invest in Northern Ireland.

Bring down the unemployment and equalize the figures, and fewer people
will have time or inclination for warring.  That's simplistic too, but
more realistic than putting the money into creating a new school
system that forces people to change their customs.  Whether or not you
agree with their customs, the customs are important to them.

>The British Government invests in NI without expecting a return.

Yes, but that's part of what governments are for.  Your government and
mine both invest in people and areas that don't provide a tangible
return.  NI is not the only application of your tax dollars that
doesn't provide a return.  

Let me point out here that the US is not any better at all in dealing
with seemingly no-win situations.  We've pumped billions of dollars
into foreign aid to countries that abuse the benefit and do nothing in
return but bite us in the a.s.  And, that's just one area.  We have
many domestic problems that we not only don't seem to be able to
solve, but seem to screw up more with every proposed solution.
Dave Fawthrop - 10 Jan 2004 20:02 GMT
| >| The statement is also too simplistic in that it ascribes all of the
| >| reasons for the "troubles" to be based on the two communities not
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
| *want* the problems to continue.  Without the problems, they have no
| function.

Yes both sides are absolutely insane,  as the word is understood in England

| >The war makes sure that no sensible person will invest in Northern Ireland.
|
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
| many domestic problems that we not only don't seem to be able to
| solve, but seem to screw up more with every proposed solution.

You have been listening to too much IRA/Noraid propaganda.

This is ggetting too off topic for ucla :-(
Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 01:51 GMT
>You have been listening to too much IRA/Noraid propaganda.

No, the Noraid people are about as reliable as Ian's people.
Actually, the figures are from the NI Department of Economic
Development.   But, it's always best to cast doubt on unwanted news.

>This is ggetting too off topic for ucla :-(

Agreed.
Dr Robin Bignall - 11 Jan 2004 00:06 GMT
>  We have
>many domestic problems that we not only don't seem to be able to
>solve, but seem to screw up more with every proposed solution.

"What this country needs are more unemployed politicians."
Edward Langley (naturalised American artist, 1928-1995)

"I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts."
Will Rogers.

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Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Robert Bannister - 11 Jan 2004 00:31 GMT
>>| The statement is also too simplistic in that it ascribes all of the
>>| reasons for the "troubles" to be based on the two communities not
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> many domestic problems that we not only don't seem to be able to
> solve, but seem to screw up more with every proposed solution.

Not specifically a US thing, but I was horrified to read that the
Southern Baptists are sending missionaries to Iraq disguised as aid workers.

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Rob Bannister

Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 Jan 2004 16:59 GMT
> Not specifically a US thing, but I was horrified to read that the
> Southern Baptists are sending missionaries to Iraq disguised as aid
> workers.

Unfortunately, that serves two purposes for them: missionary work and
"creating martyrs".

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David - 11 Jan 2004 01:19 GMT
> >The British Government invests in NI without expecting a return.
> >
> Yes, but that's part of what governments are for.  Your government and
> mine both invest in people and areas that don't provide a tangible
> return.  NI is not the only application of your tax dollars that
> doesn't provide a return.  

> Let me point out here that the US is not any better at all in dealing
> with seemingly no-win situations.  We've pumped billions of dollars
> into foreign aid to countries that abuse the benefit and do nothing in
> return but bite us in the a.s.  And, that's just one area.  We have
> many domestic problems that we not only don't seem to be able to
> solve, but seem to screw up more with every proposed solution.

Probably been the perennial cry of the non-political animal since Set
set about dismantling Osiris in the Egyptian dessert but my solution is
so simple: protect your donkeys' arses!

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Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 02:36 GMT
>> >The British Government invests in NI without expecting a return.
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>set about dismantling Osiris in the Egyptian dessert but my solution is
>so simple: protect your donkeys' arses!

So, in Egypt they serve a.s for afters?
David - 11 Jan 2004 02:53 GMT
> So, in Egypt they serve a.s for afters?

I wouldn't know. Have you ever been to Egypt? I haven't.

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Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 05:39 GMT
>> So, in Egypt they serve a.s for afters?
>
>I wouldn't know. Have you ever been to Egypt? I haven't.

When you snip your lines:

>Probably been the perennial cry of the non-political animal since Set
>set about dismantling Osiris in the Egyptian dessert but my solution is
>so simple: protect your donkeys' arses!

and we lose "dessert", my line does go a bit flat.  

 
David - 11 Jan 2004 12:09 GMT
> >> So, in Egypt they serve a.s for afters?
> >
> >I wouldn't know. Have you ever been to Egypt? I haven't.

> When you snip your lines:

> >Probably been the perennial cry of the non-political animal since
> >Set set about dismantling Osiris in the Egyptian dessert but my
> >solution is so simple: protect your donkeys' arses!

> and we lose "dessert", my line does go a bit flat.  

Oops!

There am I, protecting my donkey's arse and it still ends up in the
pudding club!

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Robert Bannister - 11 Jan 2004 00:29 GMT
> A secular school system may offer some advantages somewhere along the
> line.  But, if you insist that all children attend only a secular
> school, you are forcing people to give up their religious custom  If
> you offer a choice, the secular schools may not be chosen.  Either
> way, though, there wouldn't be that much difference in a generation.

I'm not disagreeing about non-segrated schools not being the answer to
the problem, but I cannot see that secular schools force people to give
up their religious custom. That is, unless it is their religious custom
to brainwash their children. I would like to see all religious schools
abolished. If people want religion, they should practise it in their own
time.

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Rob Bannister

David - 11 Jan 2004 01:50 GMT
> > A secular school system may offer some advantages somewhere along
> > the line.  But, if you insist that all children attend only a
> > secular school, you are forcing people to give up their religious
> > custom  If you offer a choice, the secular schools may not be
> > chosen.  Either way, though, there wouldn't be that much difference
> > in a generation.

> I'm not disagreeing about non-segrated schools not being the answer
> to the problem, but I cannot see that secular schools force people
> to give up their religious custom. That is, unless it is their
> religious custom to brainwash their children. I would like to see
> all religious schools abolished. If people want religion, they
> should practise it in their own time.

Agreed.

(Gee, it's really nice to agree on something, even if it's really
ungodly! :-)

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Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 03:09 GMT
>> A secular school system may offer some advantages somewhere along the
>> line.  But, if you insist that all children attend only a secular
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>to brainwash their children. I would like to see all religious schools
>abolished.

Secular schools don't force people to give up their customs, but this
was a follow-up to a post that referred to *replacing* the present
Protestant and Catholic schools with secular schools.

So, if it is the custom for the Protestants and Catholics in NI to
send their children to a school that includes religious instruction,
then forcing them to send their children to a secular school would be
making them give up their customs.

The "brain-washing" point is a little more difficult for me to answer.
I was born Catholic, sent my children to parochial schools, and am
still - nominally - a member of the Catholic church.  Yet, I regard
the Bible as book of fables that provides moral lessons much like
Aesop's.   The brain-washing didn't take in my case.

Nonetheless, I'm an advocate of freedom of religion and the right of
anyone to worship anything they please in any manner that suits them.
I'm not big on religions that require the sacrificing of virgins, but
- hey! - if they can find one these days they should be allowed to
ask.  My belief in the freedom of religion includes allowing people
their right to construct schools and send their children to them.

If you look at the statistics, you will see that (in the US) graduates
of private religious schools do very well on college entrance tests.
They seem to be getting an education that is equal to or better than a
secular school education.  That can't be a bad thing.

I don't know that just attending a private school with religious
instruction is a brain-washing process anyway.  For it to be so, you
have to assume that only thing the child will learn is what the child
learns at school.  In my case, my two children have remarkably the
same attitude about religion as I do even though they attended
Catholic schools.  Whatever the school washed in, I seemed to have
washed out.  

> If people want religion, they should practise it in their own
>time.

Well, they are.  If someone attends a private school with religious
instruction, they *are* on their own time.
Matthew Huntbach - 13 Jan 2004 09:43 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com> wrote:

> The "brain-washing" point is a little more difficult for me to answer.
> I was born Catholic, sent my children to parochial schools, and am
> still - nominally - a member of the Catholic church.  Yet, I regard
> the Bible as book of fables that provides moral lessons much like
> Aesop's.   The brain-washing didn't take in my case.

Mostly it seems Catholic schools manage to deliver just an immunising
dose of Catholicism. Despite (or maybe because of) the existence of
state funded Catholic schools in England, every week the Catholic
press is full of letters and articles on the theme "why don't our
kids carry on our religion?". You will generally find the "bring back
Latin" crowd and the "make it more modern and trendy" crowd equally
convinced that if it were all done their way, the kids would be flocking
to mass.

> If you look at the statistics, you will see that (in the US) graduates
> of private religious schools do very well on college entrance tests.
> They seem to be getting an education that is equal to or better than a
> secular school education.  That can't be a bad thing.

Same is seen with English state-funded Catholic schools. They regularly
top the league tables of school performance. This is very embarrassing
to the secularists who make all sorts of excuses for it because they just
can't admit that maybe we Papists have got something going for us somehow.
Generally they will say "Ah, but these Catholic schools are just a
way of taking on white middle class kids in otherwise deprived
multi-ethnic areas". My wife is chair of the board of governors of a
Catholic primary school in my borough. Most of the kids in that school have brown skins, many
come from poor backgrounds, and the only test for entrance is their
attendance at mass. The school is top of the borough's league table.

Matthew Huntbach
Robert Bannister - 14 Jan 2004 00:00 GMT
> Same is seen with English state-funded Catholic schools. They regularly
> top the league tables of school performance. This is very embarrassing
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> come from poor backgrounds, and the only test for entrance is their
> attendance at mass. The school is top of the borough's league table.

Private schools always win over non-private ones because they can easily
expel their students, who then usually end up in the state system. In
Australia, the federal government has for years been giving a higher and
higher amount of money to private schools. The 'top' schools here are,
in fact, mainly protestant, but the Catholic schools do a good job for
much lower fees. I have nothing against teachers in private schools -
they work as hard as any other teacher and produce good results - but I
still believe (wow: a faith issue) that schooling should be egalitarian
and secular.
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Rob Bannister

Matthew Huntbach - 14 Jan 2004 11:12 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote:

>> Same is seen with English state-funded Catholic schools. They regularly
>> top the league tables of school performance.

> Private schools always win over non-private ones because they can easily
> expel their students, who then usually end up in the state system. In
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> still believe (wow: a faith issue) that schooling should be egalitarian
> and secular.

Yes, but this is not what we are talking about. I was talking about
Catholic schools in England which are not private and do not charge
fees. The vast majority of the Catholic schools in England fall into
this category - they are part of the state education system, funded by
local authorities just like other state schools.

Matthew Huntbach
Robert Bannister - 15 Jan 2004 00:24 GMT
> In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> this category - they are part of the state education system, funded by
> local authorities just like other state schools.

I was not aware of that. Our RC schools are private, but their fees are
in the middle to low bracket.

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Rob Bannister

Matthew Huntbach - 15 Jan 2004 08:59 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote:

>> Yes, but this is not what we are talking about. I was talking about
>> Catholic schools in England which are not private and do not charge
>> fees. The vast majority of the Catholic schools in England fall into
>> this category - they are part of the state education system, funded by
>> local authorities just like other state schools.

> I was not aware of that. Our RC schools are private, but their fees are
> in the middle to low bracket.

I was simplifying slightly. In fact the Catholic Church is responsible
for 15% of the capital costs of state Catholic schools in England, but
none of the running costs. The local education authority appoints a lower
proportion of the school governing board than other state schools, and
the schools are permitted to have an entrance policy in which religious
practice of the parents is taken into account.  

Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach - 13 Jan 2004 09:30 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote:

> I'm not disagreeing about non-segrated schools not being the answer to
> the problem, but I cannot see that secular schools force people to give
> up their religious custom. That is, unless it is their religious custom
> to brainwash their children. I would like to see all religious schools
> abolished. If people want religion, they should practise it in their own
> time.

Would you say also that Welsh language medium schools should be abolished
on the grounds that all kids should be taught in English just like
everyoine else, and if they want to pick up Welsh they can damn well do
that in their own spare time?

Matthew Huntbach
Robert Bannister - 14 Jan 2004 00:02 GMT
> In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote:
>  
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> everyoine else, and if they want to pick up Welsh they can damn well do
> that in their own spare time?

I fail to see the comparison. I suppose there may be some people who
consider Welsh to as irrelevant as religion, but it seems like a
comparison between apples and elephants to me.

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Rob Bannister

Tony Cooper - 14 Jan 2004 00:50 GMT
>> In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote:
>>  
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>consider Welsh to as irrelevant as religion, but it seems like a
>comparison between apples and elephants to me.

I see the comparison.  The issue is choice.  If a parent wants his
child to be educated in a system that provides instruction in some
traditional area - be religion or language - the parent should have
that choice provided the choice does not cause harm to the child.

You could make a case for a secular system with a supplementary system
of traditional instruction.  In other words, the child attends the
secular school with all the other children, and then attends
traditional classes later in the day at a different location.  Many
Jewish children do that now.  

I don't think that this alternative is as effective in teaching the
traditional topics.  The traditional topics are better learned when
they are integrated with the non-traditional lessons.  

A rigid requirement of one, universal, secular system also denies the
parent home schooling as an option.  I don't happen to agree with this
type of education, but many do and many find it preferable.

You can argue that the child is denied choice if the parent opts for
some non-secular system.  But, then, the child is denied choice by
forced to attend *any* system.

I think the important issue is that all systems have requirements and
guidelines.   The non-secular school should be required to teach all
of the core programs.  
Robert Bannister - 15 Jan 2004 00:27 GMT
> I think the important issue is that all systems have requirements and
> guidelines.   The non-secular school should be required to teach all
> of the core programs.  

I am sure they are obliged to, at least in 'western' countries. I still
think a language and a religion are different things. One is real; the
other a matter of belief. The latter, in my opinion, should be reserved
for consenting adults, preferably in private.
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Tony Cooper - 15 Jan 2004 03:17 GMT
>> I think the important issue is that all systems have requirements and
>> guidelines.   The non-secular school should be required to teach all
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>other a matter of belief. The latter, in my opinion, should be reserved
>for consenting adults, preferably in private.

Oh, I understand your point.  I believe in it to a degree.  The thing
is that customs are important.  We often talk here about the erosion
of freedoms.  The ability to embrace and perpetuate customs is as much
a freedom as anything else.  Even if the freedom is based on fuzzy
thinking, it's important to the believer.

Religion is just as real as the requirements of grammar.  We invented
the rules of grammar just as someone invented the religious doctrines.
If we had to abandon all grammatical rules, or abandon all concepts of
religion, man would be better off without grammar.  Grammar offers no
solace, no hope, no concept of something larger than what is visibly
before us.  Grammar makes things orderly.  Religion makes things
bearable.  

And, I say this as a person that does not embrace or accept religion.
I do see that it's important to others, though.
Tony Mountifield - 14 Jan 2004 08:57 GMT
> > In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote:
> >  
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> consider Welsh to as irrelevant as religion, but it seems like a
> comparison between apples and elephants to me.

To you maybe, but there are a significant number of people who consider
religion to be as relevant as language. That naturally affects their
choice of school. One man's "brainwashing" is another man's "giving the
best foundation for life".

Cheers,
Tony
Signature

Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

Matthew Huntbach - 14 Jan 2004 10:51 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote:

>>>I'm not disagreeing about non-segrated schools not being the answer to
>>>the problem, but I cannot see that secular schools force people to give
>>>up their religious custom. That is, unless it is their religious custom
>>>to brainwash their children. I would like to see all religious schools
>>>abolished. If people want religion, they should practise it in their own
>>>time.

>> Would you say also that Welsh language medium schools should be abolished
>> on the grounds that all kids should be taught in English just like
>> everyone else, and if they want to pick up Welsh they can damn well do
>> that in their own spare time?

> I fail to see the comparison. I suppose there may be some people who
> consider Welsh to as irrelevant as religion, but it seems like a
> comparison between apples and elephants to me.

In both cases it is a matter of parents wishing their children to maintain
their culture, and doing so by sending them to schools where that
culture is built into the education. Also the argument was that
educating different groups of children in different schools is bound to
lead to tribalism and conflict. Surely, if we are to take this approach
(which BTW, I don't - I support Welsh language schools) there's nothing
more divisive than encouraging some people in the population to speak
their own language which the others can't understand.

Matthew Huntbach
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 11 Jan 2004 02:38 GMT
> I have no first-hand experience of the education system in Northern
> Ireland, but I used to know quite a few people who worked in it.  From
> what they told me, the situation there was (and probably still is) that
> almost every school in the province was/is either institutionally Roman
> Catholic or institutionally Protestant.

/Everything/ in NI is either institutionally Catholic or institutionally
Protestant.  Havne't you heard the [quite probably NOT apocryphal] tale
about the taxi driver saying to the fare "Are yous Catholic or
Protestant?", and, upon receiving the response "I'm neither; I'm an
atheist", asking the supplementary question "Ah, but are yous a Catholic
atheist or a Protestant one?"?  (Substitute Moslem, Jew, Hindu, whatever
for atheist in that exchange.)

Signature

Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                          bhk@dsl.co.uk
   "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would.  Yet we are
   untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them".
                                             George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919

Dave Fawthrop - 11 Jan 2004 08:09 GMT
| > I have no first-hand experience of the education system in Northern
| > Ireland, but I used to know quite a few people who worked in it.  From
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
| atheist or a Protestant one?"?  (Substitute Moslem, Jew, Hindu, whatever
| for atheist in that exchange.)

Back to the English Language.

It is *NOT* apocryphal.
I once *knew* a Northern Irish woman who happened to be an Atheist, and was
forced to describe herself in NI as a "Protestant Atheist".   The tribal
affiliation being more important belief.  

Dave F
R F - 09 Jan 2004 16:17 GMT
> I wish that our own "troubles" here in the US could have been cured in
> the first generation after Brown vs Board of Education in 1954.

Oy!  That's Brown *v.* Board of Education, Coop!
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 03:44 GMT
>> I wish that our own "troubles" here in the US could have been cured in
>> the first generation after Brown vs Board of Education in 1954.
>
>Oy!  That's Brown *v.* Board of Education, Coop!

You know, I noticed that when I checked on the web for the date.  I
think that's the first time that I've noticed it.  I've always thought
that "vs." meant "versus" and is the correct abbreviation.  I've never
noticed the plain "v." before.    When is which correct?
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 11 Jan 2004 02:38 GMT
> >> I wish that our own "troubles" here in the US could have been cured in
> >> the first generation after Brown vs Board of Education in 1954.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> that "vs." meant "versus" and is the correct abbreviation.  I've never
> noticed the plain "v." before.    When is which correct?

Either: although since the abbreviation "vs" ends in the same letter as
the unabbreviated word, it is not usually followed in proper English by a
full stop; the latter IS required in the other abbreviation "v.", of
course.

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Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                          bhk@dsl.co.uk
   "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would.  Yet we are
   untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them".
                                             George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919

Dr Robin Bignall - 10 Jan 2004 00:35 GMT
>If you could implement a program of all children in NI going to the
>same school, which school program would you eliminate?

Drama.

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wrmst rgrds
Robin Bignall

Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 03:45 GMT
>>If you could implement a program of all children in NI going to the
>>same school, which school program would you eliminate?
>>
>Drama.

Not bad,  Not bad at all.
Matthew Huntbach - 13 Jan 2004 09:19 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>>The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO  the
>>children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.
> This is largely at the insistence of the Catholic Church, whose
> spokespersons point out that they have separate schools for their kids in
> exactly the same way as Catholics in England, Scotland and Wales do.

The existence of Catholic schools in England, however, does not seem
to have resulted in violent conflcit between Catholics and others.

Catholic schools were established in England because Catholics objected
to the way state schools at the time involved a considerable amount of
indoctrination into the Protestant version of Christianity.

Matthew Huntbach
R F - 13 Jan 2004 20:07 GMT
> The existence of Catholic schools in England, however, does not seem
> to have resulted in violent conflcit between Catholics and others.
>
> Catholic schools were established in England because Catholics objected
> to the way state schools at the time involved a considerable amount of
> indoctrination into the Protestant version of Christianity.

That is also the origin of Catholic schools in at least some parts of
the US, including New York (Largest City in America).
Robert Bannister - 14 Jan 2004 00:04 GMT
> In uk.culture.language.english Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> to the way state schools at the time involved a considerable amount of
> indoctrination into the Protestant version of Christianity.

Valid point. This was something wrong with UK state schools at the time.
I remember we used to have daily assemblies with hymn and psalm singing,
although I get the impression this has now been largely done away with.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Skitt - 14 Jan 2004 00:37 GMT
>> Catholic schools were established in England because Catholics
>> objected
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> singing, although I get the impression this has now been largely done
> away with.

I think that I was lucky to attend Latvian schools in my childhood.  We had
a class titled (and I translate it literally) "Belief Study", and that is
what it was -- the study of all the major religions.  There were a couple of
Baptist boys who would have none of that, and they were excused.  Baptists
were an oddity in Latvia, anyway.

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Skitt (in Hayward, California)
www.geocities.com/opus731/

Matthew Huntbach - 14 Jan 2004 10:33 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english Skitt <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote:

>>> Catholic schools were established in England because Catholics
>>> objected to the way state schools at the time involved a considerable amount
>>> of indoctrination into the Protestant version of Christianity.

>> Valid point. This was something wrong with UK state schools at the
>> time. I remember we used to have daily assemblies with hymn and psalm
>> singing, although I get the impression this has now been largely done
>> away with.

> I think that I was lucky to attend Latvian schools in my childhood.  We had
> a class titled (and I translate it literally) "Belief Study", and that is
> what it was -- the study of all the major religions.  

That is now how it is in schools in England. Religious education seems to
be a sterile list of religions where you have to learn the beliefs and
practices associated with each, but with any controversy or deeper
discussion ruled out. It strikes me as a silly appraoch, because many
of the big religious issues cut across the religions - for example, the
question of whether one regards the texts in a fundamentalist or an
allegorical way.

Matthew Huntbach
Simon R. Hughes - 14 Jan 2004 10:58 GMT
> Religious education seems to
> be a sterile list of religions where you have to learn the beliefs and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> question of whether one regards the texts in a fundamentalist or an
> allegorical way.

That's a big religious issue? I would have thought that
religions' approach of human rights were bigger. And more
important for human society as a whole.

The kind of education that seeks to develop respectful pupils
requires a school system that does not simply demand good exam
results, however. Perhaps we should start with educational
reform.

Signature

Simon R. Hughes

Matthew Huntbach - 14 Jan 2004 12:04 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english Simon R. Hughes <a57998.not.this.bit@yahoo.no> wrote:

>> Religious education seems to
>> be a sterile list of religions where you have to learn the beliefs and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>> question of whether one regards the texts in a fundamentalist or an
>> allegorical way.

> That's a big religious issue? I would have thought that
> religions' approach of human rights were bigger. And more
> important for human society as a whole.

I gave it only as an example. Religious education in the UK has to be
bland and non-offensive, so it consists of such things as learning lists
of the holy days associated with each religion, and regards something like
a critical examination of religions' approach to human rights as something
to be avoided. Or at least it would play up all the positive aspects of
religion and play down the negative. So there would be lessons on how the
vaious religions strive for peace and justice, but none on how they may
have been used to justify torture and killing.

Matthew Huntbach
Charles Riggs - 08 Jan 2004 09:05 GMT
>> I listen to the BBC World
>> News on radio, and watch BBC America.  (Which is the name of the BBC
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Because they are talking to Yanks, and they know they have to use simple
>language.

Yanks? Okay, if you want to be abusive, do you find Joyce's works to
be simple? Far more Americans read them, enjoy them, and understand
them than do either Limeys or Paddies, if we can go by book sales,
college courses offered, and the home countries of Joycean scholars.
The library in my town here in Ireland hardly bothers to shelve them;
even in Dublin I found the same to be true. My last library in America
had a ten-foot-wide bookshelf of works by him and about him, from
floor to ceiling.

Does America's largest newspaper, the New York Times, use simpler
language than the Times out of London? If anything, the reverse is the
case.
Signature

Charles Riggs
Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net

Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jan 2004 22:00 GMT
> > I listen to the BBC World
> > News on radio, and watch BBC America.  (Which is the name of the BBC
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Because they are talking to Yanks, and they know they have to use simple
> language.

Okay, let's look at _The Times_

   This is not the biggest problem facing GSK in America. Another
   cross-border dispute has the potential to do even more damage. A
   campaign by America's elderly for cheaper medicines is gaining
   momentum.  [1/8/04]

   Qantas Airways, the Australian national flag carrier, said today
   that US authorities have banned passengers from gathering near
   toilets and other places on flights to America. [1/7/04]

   Regarding growth, there should be no great surprises in America
   and Britain. Fuelled by the almost unprecedented stimulus from
   rock-bottom interest rates, exploding budget deficits and a 20 per
   cent devaluation of the dollar, the US economy will expand by
   about 4.5 per cent this year -- and achieving this figure will make
   2004 the strongest year for US growth since 1984. Britain will
   also rebound quite strongly, comfortably achieving Gordon Brown's
   forecast of 3 per cent growth.  [1/6/04]

I guess they must be dumbing their paper down for Yanks.  (The first
and third are written by their own people, the second is an AP story
from Australia.)

How about the _Guardian_?

   The Florida home, which Lord Black once described as "ridiculous
   and vulgar and absurd", sits on a coastline that is a playground
   for America's super-rich. [1/8/04]

   Part of the problem is that unlike America or France, Britain
   doesn't have its own space agency to promote forays into
   space. [1/8/04]

   The company's collapse into bankruptcy in late 2001 was the first
   in a series of scandals that rocked corporate America and shook
   investors' confidence in the stock market. [1/8/04]

   This is because Britain is one of the 27 mainly European countries
   on the US's visa waiver programme, which allows citizens from
   those nations to enter America for up to three months without a
   visa. [1/8/04]

I guess they must sell a lot of papers to us Yanks, as well.  I wonder
why the Brits put up with it.

Maybe the _Independent_?

   By refusing to budge, the IRS positions itself in the vanguard of
   US economic imperialism and protectionism. Its attitude seems to
   be that if the product is discovered in the US, then any success
   it enjoys is down to the genius and superiority of American
   science, but if discovered elsewhere, then it must be the effect
   of America's skills at selling, never mind that it might be a
   product that improves people's health. [1/8/04]

   However, the US tax authorities are likely to argue that Glaxo
   should pay tax on profits from US sales in America and that its US
   subsidiaries have been deliberately overpaying for drugs made by
   sister companies in Europe. [1/8/04]

   "It hasn't been exhibited in this country and I don't believe it
   was exhibited in America apart from when it was in the Marlborough
   Gallery [in New York] for sale." [1/8/04.  The speaker is the
   "director of Tate Britain".]

   Scores of undercover nuclear scientists screened America's largest
   cities for radiation amid fears that al-Qa'ida might release a
   dirty bomb at an open-air event such as the New Year celebrations
   in Times Square. [1/8/04]

   Her bitter divorce battle has spiralled into an international
   scandal, involving accusations of kidnapping, corruption and dirty
   politics. It may even have significant implications for America's
   "war against terrorism". [1/7/04]

Do you have another newspaper you'd like me to check?  I was unable to
find a recent instance of "America" being used other than "the United
States".  The papers all appeared to use "America", "North America",
"South America", and "the Americas" the same way we do here.  (The one
possible exception was a use of "central America" for what I would
expect to see as "Central America".)

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Raymond S. Wise - 08 Jan 2004 00:40 GMT
I know that Andrew Davidson has abandoned the discussion. It's too bad he
won't have the chance to learn that he is wrong. (I briefly considered
e-mailing him a copy of this post, but decided against it.)

> [blah blah blah] then
>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> prevailing one in the USA - however it is quite certainly not the prevailing
> view in the UK - and I doubt that it prevails elsewhere.

It is quite easy to prove that you are wrong about the
"America"-as-a-synonym-for-"USA" meaning not being the prevailing one in the
UK:

*The Collins English Dictionary* is a British dictionary which follows the
"popular tradition" of listing definitions. This means that the most widely
used definition is listed first, followed by definitions which are employed
less often. This is in contrast to the "scholarly tradition," used by the
OED and the Merriam-Webster dictionaries, in which the oldest meaning of a
word is listed first, followed by more recent definitions.

In the light of this, what does the Collins have to say about "America" and
"American"?

From
http://www.wordreference.com/english/definition.asp?en=America

[quote]

*America* [...]
noun
1   short for the: United States of America

2   Also called: *the Americas*  the American continent, including North,
South, and Central America

[end quote]

From
http://www.wordreference.com/english/definition.asp?en=american

[quote]

American [...]
_adjective_
1   of or relating to the United States of America, its inhabitants, or
their form of English

2   of or relating to the American continent
_noun_
3   a native or citizen of the U.S.

4   a native or inhabitant of any country of North, Central, or South
America

5   the English language as spoken or written in the United States

[end quote]

I would predict that other British dictionaries which follow the popular
tradition would similarly treat the words "America" and "American."

> I suspect our difference of opinion here has more to do with the fact that my
> shirt was manufactured in England than whether it is stuffed or not.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Gwilym Calon - 08 Jan 2004 01:15 GMT
> I know that Andrew Davidson has abandoned the discussion. It's too bad he
> won't have the chance to learn that he is wrong. (I briefly considered
> e-mailing him a copy of this post, but decided against it.)

Under 'America' meaning 2 seems to support what Davidson wrote.
>2   Also called: *the Americas*  the American continent, including North,
> South, and Central America

Under 'American' meanings 2 & 4 seem also to support Davidson
>2   of or relating to the American continent
>4   a native or inhabitant of any country of North, Central, or South
> America

Other than that its a good call

-------------------
GC
Raymond S. Wise - 08 Jan 2004 03:15 GMT
> > I know that Andrew Davidson has abandoned the discussion. It's too bad he
> > won't have the chance to learn that he is wrong. (I briefly considered
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Other than that its a good call

I was quite aware that "America" is used to mean "the Americas" in some
parts of the world--The matter has often been discussed in alt.usage.english
. As I said in my post, addressing Andrew Davidson, "It is quite easy to
prove that you are wrong about the 'America'-as-a-synonym-for-'USA' meaning
not being the prevailing one in the UK." It was *that* point which I was
addressing in my post.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Robert Bannister - 06 Jan 2004 23:56 GMT
> I've got through just fine so far. I'm clear that there is "South America" and
> "North America" - together they form the landmass known as "The Americas" or
> "America" and near the top of that land mass is a group of inhabitants who think
> they are alone on this planet (or at least behave that way).

Is this a joke about Canadians or Inuits?

>> If you present
>>yourself at the Aserca Airlines desk and try to book a ticket to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Not so - I've done something very similar - I actually asked for my
> destination - who requests an airline ticket to a continent?

Not a ticket perhaps, but I can well imagine going to a travel agent's
and announcing "I want to go to America next month. Have you got any
special deals?"

Signature

Rob Bannister

Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 17:18 GMT
> Not a ticket perhaps, but I can well imagine going to a travel agent's
> and announcing "I want to go to America next month. Have you got any
> special deals?"

I thought I'd test this, so I phoned my local travel agent and asked exactly
that question - quick as a flash came the reply "North or South?".

Signature

Andrew Davidson

R F - 07 Jan 2004 19:37 GMT
> > Not a ticket perhaps, but I can well imagine going to a travel agent's
> > and announcing "I want to go to America next month. Have you got any
> > special deals?"
>
> I thought I'd test this, so I phoned my local travel agent and asked exactly
> that question - quick as a flash came the reply "North or South?".

I don't believe you.

I've heard too many British persons use "America" and "American" in the
AmE way to find your report believable.

You *may* be telling the truth, but I don't believe it.
Ross Howard - 07 Jan 2004 19:47 GMT
>> > Not a ticket perhaps, but I can well imagine going to a travel agent's
>> > and announcing "I want to go to America next month. Have you got any
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>You *may* be telling the truth, but I don't believe it.

I'd believe it -- provided his travel agent was called Manolo
Rodriguez.

--
Ross Howard
Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 20:16 GMT
> I don't believe you.

I don't believe you - I believe that you do believe me. Unbelievable isn't it?

My stance is that all debate is pointless without truth - An experiment was
proposed and conducted - I reported the outcome. It may or may not be
repeatable.

It is clear that you "Americans" believe that you own that term - further, you
clearly believe that your stance is "universally accepted". I, however believe
neither of these things - but I do believe that the debate cannot have a
satisfactory conclusion. My involvement in this discussion is therefore ended.

Signature

Andrew Davidson

Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2004 22:39 GMT
>> I don't believe you.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>clearly believe that your stance is "universally accepted". I, however believe
>neither of these things

No, we don't believe we own the term, but we - or some of us -
recognize that the term has universal meaning.  Our belief is not
based on proprietary aspects, but rather on simple observation of how
the term is used.   We do not desire or insist that the term be used
to mean the United States, but we recognize that it does.  


>but I do believe that the debate cannot have a
>satisfactory conclusion. My involvement in this discussion is therefore ended.

You are not leaving the field with honor.  It is more of a sulking
slink off.
Enrico C - 08 Jan 2004 02:28 GMT
<snip>
> I've got through just fine so far. I'm clear that there is "South America" and
> "North America" - together they form the landmass known as "The Americas"

Indeed. And the adjective is...  

American

"of or relating to or characteristic of the continents and islands of
the Americas (Example: "The American hemisphere")"

From Onelook.com's Quick definitions

American

1 noun:   a native or inhabitant of a North American or Central
American or South American country

2 noun:   a native or inhabitant of the United States

3 noun:   the English language as used in the United States

4 of or relating to or characteristic of the continents and islands of
the Americas (Example: "The American hemisphere")"

5 adjective:   of or relating to the United States of America or its
people or language or culture (Example: "American citizens")

6 name:  A surname (very rare: popularity rank in the U.S.: #88555)

Fup2 alt.usage.english

Signature

Enrico C  ~  No native speaker

John Dawkins - 07 Jan 2004 21:33 GMT
> > The post is about as serious as the idea of a Peruvian thinking he is
> > an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> dwellers
> on that continent to also use the name.

I wonder if your take on this issue is widely held even in your neck of
the woods.  A check of the last 25 articles appearing in the online
version of a randomly chosen UK newspaper (The Independent---how
representative is this rag?) shows a usage of "America" and "American"
that is decidedly American.  Perhaps, for reasons unguessable by me,
they too are using simple language when talking about (and not just to)
us "Yanks".

Signature

J.

Molly Mockford - 05 Jan 2004 18:43 GMT
>I thank you for the explanation although I was well aware of all of
>it.  My post was just a little spoofing.  A resident of any of the UK
>countries other than England  recognizes a monarch that is Queen of a
>different place.  She is called the Queen of England and not the Queen
>of Scotland, or Wales, or.....   Before you explain, that too is a
>spoof and I am aware of her full title.

And, presumably, of the fact that it was the royal house of Scotland
which took over England, rather than vice versa.  However, the current
incumbent should really be known as Queen Elizabeth the 1st of Scotland
and 2nd of England, along the lines of the Stuart monarchs.  (No names
in between have led to any discrepancy in numbering.)
Signature

Molly Mockford
I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that
lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Ross Howard - 05 Jan 2004 19:19 GMT
>>I thank you for the explanation although I was well aware of all of
>>it.  My post was just a little spoofing.  A resident of any of the UK
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>and 2nd of England, along the lines of the Stuart monarchs.  (No names
>in between have led to any discrepancy in numbering.)

Would "Elizabeth the Last of England and Scotland" solve all problems
-- of numbering or otherwise?

--
Ross Howard
Peter Duncanson - 05 Jan 2004 20:29 GMT
>>>I thank you for the explanation although I was well aware of all of
>>>it.  My post was just a little spoofing.  A resident of any of the UK
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Would "Elizabeth the Last of England and Scotland" solve all problems
>-- of numbering or otherwise?

"Elizabeth the Last of England and Scotland, and the First of The European
Union"?

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)

Robert Bannister - 05 Jan 2004 23:50 GMT
>>>So you are not a resident of the United Kingdom?  A small land mass
>>>that is known - in parts - by various other names?  A place where the
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence.
> And that was the subject that generated my reply.

Only last night, I read a book in which the Incas were described as
"Native Americans".

Signature

Rob Bannister

Tony Cooper - 06 Jan 2004 00:51 GMT
>> The post is about as serious as the idea of a Peruvian thinking he is
>> an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence.
>> And that was the subject that generated my reply.
>
>Only last night, I read a book in which the Incas were described as
>"Native Americans".

The Incas, the Dinkas, and the Doos were the three founding tribes of
America.
Peter Duncanson - 05 Jan 2004 13:51 GMT
>> So you are not a resident of the United Kingdom?  A small land mass
>> that is known - in parts - by various other names?  A place where the
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Your sentence about "Queen of a different place" is confusing, and does not
>describe any situation I recocognise within the UK.

She is also seaparetly Queen of Australia, Queen of Canada, Queen of Papua
New Guinea, Queen of New Zealand, and other independent countries[1]. In
fact if the UK decided to cease to be a monarchy, she could continue being
Queen of those other countries if they wished her to.

[1] Other independent countries of which she is independently Queen:
Antigua and Barbuda
The Bahamas
Barbados
Belize
Jamaica
Solomon Islands
St. Kitts and Nevis
St. Lucia
St. Vincent and the Grenadines
Tuvalu

These countries each freely chose to keep the Queen as Head of State when
they became independent.

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)

Peter Duncanson - 05 Jan 2004 13:54 GMT
>She is also seaparetly Queen of

Apologies for the typo!

Perhaps "seaparetly" describes places that are separated by sea.

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)

Andrew Davidson - 05 Jan 2004 14:06 GMT
> She is also seaparetly Queen of Australia, Queen of Canada, Queen of Papua
> New Guinea, Queen of New Zealand, and other independent countries[1]. In
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> St. Vincent and the Grenadines
> Tuvalu

You forgot: Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isle of Man.

Signature

Andrew Davidson

Peter Duncanson - 05 Jan 2004 15:53 GMT
>> She is also seaparetly Queen of Australia, Queen of Canada, Queen of Papua
>> New Guinea, Queen of New Zealand, and other independent countries[1]. In
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>You forgot: Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isle of Man.

I thought of them but they are not fully independent states.
Nome of them is a member of the Commonwealth or of the United Nations.

   Isle of Man:
http://www.gov.im/cso/crown/office_gov.xml
<quote>
The Queen is the United Kingdom's Head of State and is also the Lord of
Mann.
...
The Lieutenant Governor has many different duties to perform and derives his
powers directly from the Crown, from United Kingdom Acts of Parliament in
respect of certain specific functions (e.g. Nationality and Immigration);
and from Acts of Tynwald or Customary Law.
</quote>

also:
http://www.gov.im/deptindex/FR_CheckParents.asp?article=sectoral.html
<quote>
The United Kingdom is the Island's principal neighbour and is
constitutionally responsible for the Island's international relations.
</quote>

  Jersey:
http://www.gov.je/government/govassembly.asp
<quote>
Constitutionally, Jersey is a dependency of the Crown, owing allegiance to
the Sovereign, but without incorporation into the United Kingdom. Jersey is
self-governing in internal matters, but the UK Government is responsible for
defence, overseas representation and international affairs generally.
</quote>

  Guernsey:
No information of the website, but I understand its status is similar to
that of Jersey. http://www.gov.gg/

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)

Molly Mockford - 05 Jan 2004 18:50 GMT
>> She is also seaparetly Queen of

(snip)

>You forgot: Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isle of Man.

And of course Sark, which is held by the Seigneur in fief direct from
the Queen herself (although usually the Privy Council act for her in
this).
Signature

Molly Mockford
I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that
lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Matthew Huntbach - 13 Jan 2004 10:19 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english Andrew Davidson <andrew@cyber-home.net> wrote:
> "Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message

>> She is also seaparetly Queen of Australia, Queen of Canada, Queen of Papua
>> New Guinea, Queen of New Zealand, and other independent countries[1]. In
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>> St. Vincent and the Grenadines
>> Tuvalu

> You forgot: Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isle of Man.

Mr Duncanson has also missed a number of other Carribean countries
where Elizabeth is still Queen - Grenada and Dominica for sure and I
think there are some others.

Matthew Huntbach
Peter Duncanson - 13 Jan 2004 12:39 GMT
>In uk.culture.language.english Andrew Davidson <andrew@cyber-home.net> wrote:
>> "Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>Matthew Huntbach

I was using the list of Commonwealth members on the Commonwealth Secretariat
website
http://www.thecommonwealth.org/dynamic/Country.asp

Yes. I missed Grenada, but Dominica is a republic - President HE Dr Nicholas
J.O. Liverpool.

Elizabeth is also Queen of various non-independent countries: the UK's
Overseas Territories.

From "FAQs: About the OTs"
http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Pag
e&cid=1033062364306

<quote>
There are 14 UK Overseas Territories. Anguilla, Bermuda, British Antarctic
Territory (BAT), British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT), British Virgin
Islands (BVI), Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat,
Pitcairn Islands, St Helena and its Dependencies (Ascension Island and
Tristan da Cunha), South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, the
Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus and The Turks &
Caicos Islands (TCI).
</quote>

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)

Matthew Huntbach - 13 Jan 2004 13:08 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

>>Mr Duncanson has also missed a number of other Carribean countries
>>where Elizabeth is still Queen - Grenada and Dominica for sure and I
>>think there are some others.

> I was using the list of Commonwealth members on the Commonwealth Secretariat
> website
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Elizabeth is also Queen of various non-independent countries: the UK's
> Overseas Territories.

OK. I've just come back from Grenada and noted that QEII was still very
much Head of State there, have seen similar in St Lucia, and assumed
Dominica was the same. I was thinking in terms of all the countries
that use the East Carribean Dollar, which has the Queen's portrait on
the coins and banknotes, and Dominica certainly does use the ECD.
Monserrat does as well, but I didn't include it because I was pretty
sure (and you confirmed) it isn't independent.

Matthew Huntbach
Mike Stevens - 05 Jan 2004 15:02 GMT
> >Your sentence about "Queen of a different place" is confusing, and does not
> >describe any situation I recocognise within the UK.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> These countries each freely chose to keep the Queen as Head of State when
> they became independent.

Not to mention the Channel Islands, which have never been part of the
UK, but if which the Queen is Head of State.  That's because they are
the last remains of the Duchy of Normandy.  Incidentally the three
leopards arms nowadays ascribed to England were originally those of the
Duchy of Normandy.

The Isle of Man is also not part of the UK, although our Queen is also
the Lord of Man.

--
Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
Don't you just hate rhetorical questions?
John Estill - 04 Jan 2004 20:27 GMT
I just came across this message from "John Holmes"
<holmes@smart.net.au>, which has been sitting on alt.usage.english
since Sun, 4 Jan 2004 10:56:08 +1100.

>>>> When I accompanied my friend Juan Hernadez, who holds dual
>>>> citizenship, to Mexico, he advised me not to say that I was an
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>poster from Brazil said something along the same lines here a few months
>ago.

As the husband of a Mexican woman, I can further confirm that Mexicans
think of themselves as Americans -- well, as "americanos"-- and even
as North Americans.  I have traveled to Honduras; Hondurans, too,
think of themselves as Americans.  I haven't been to South America
yet, but the Argentineans and Venezuelans I hear from on the net
insist that they are also Americans.

Regards,
John
Signature

John Estill
Millersburg, Ohio  USA

John Holmes - 06 Jan 2004 12:53 GMT
> I just came across this message from "John Holmes"
> <holmes@smart.net.au>, which has been sitting on alt.usage.english
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> yet, but the Argentineans and Venezuelans I hear from on the net
> insist that they are also Americans.

Thanks, John.

I just want to add here that I hope this doesn't reopen the entire can
of worms about usage of the word American. The last several times it has
come up it has generated far more heat than light, and I think the usage
situation is fairly well summed up in the FAQ entry that Donna has
posted.

It was worth noting, however, what you and Hank said because there
seemed to be quite a few people who doubted that previously, and it
isn't the kind of thing that it is easy to find documentary evidence
about.

--
Regards
John
Molly Mockford - 07 Jan 2004 08:26 GMT
>I just want to add here that I hope this doesn't reopen the entire can
>of worms about usage of the word American. The last several times it has
>come up it has generated far more heat than light, and I think the usage
>situation is fairly well summed up in the FAQ entry that Donna has
>posted.

I don't see what the problem is.  The continental mass is America.  The
inhabitants of the United States are Merkins - or, in modern parlance,
muhfu - oops - muhfellah Merkins.
Signature

Molly Mockford
I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that
lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Mike Lyle - 07 Jan 2004 16:43 GMT
[...]
[in her sig]
I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that
lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!

I've checked with the talkative navy-blue cat under my chair, and she
says he's right.

Mike.
Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 17:14 GMT
> I don't see what the problem is.  The continental mass is America.  The
> inhabitants of the United States are Merkins - or, in modern parlance,
> muhfu - oops - muhfellah Merkins.

Brilliant (and incisive).

Ladies and Gentlemen - we have a winner.......

The prize goes to Molly Mockford

Signature

Andrew Davidson

GEO - 07 Jan 2004 14:02 GMT
>.. about usage of the word American. ... the usage
>situation is fairly well summed up in the FAQ entry that Donna has
>posted.

  I can't seem to find the FAQ. If someone could kindly post the
address to that FAQ, I would be grateful.

 Geo
 
Donna Richoux - 08 Jan 2004 23:17 GMT
> >.. about usage of the word American. ... the usage
> >situation is fairly well summed up in the FAQ entry that Donna has
> >posted.
>
>    I can't seem to find the FAQ. If someone could kindly post the
> address to that FAQ, I would be grateful.

The big FAQ and additional documents are at the AUE Website:
http://www.alt-usage-english.org/

The entry in question appears in Intro C.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Jan 2004 17:51 GMT
> As the husband of a Mexican woman, I can further confirm that
> Mexicans think of themselves as Americans -- well, as "americanos"--
> and even as North Americans.

That's interesting.  When this came up before, I asked some Mexican
co-workers, and they were unanimous that if they heard somebody
refered to as a "norteamericano", they would assume that the person
was from the US.  (And not Los Estados Unidos Mexicanos, either--an
"estadounidense" is also from the USA.)  Yes, Mexico is part of
"América del Norte" (as it's part of North America in English), but
the terms referring to people, were seen to be exclusively meaning
"US".  "Americano" as an adjective might well mean "North or South
American, as opposed typically to European", but "norteamericanos" are
more specific.  They were also unanimous in saying that in *English*,
somebody described as an "American" would be assumed by them to be
from the US.

> I have traveled to Honduras; Hondurans, too, think of themselves as
> Americans.  I haven't been to South America yet, but the
> Argentineans and Venezuelans I hear from on the net insist that they
> are also Americans.

If you get to South America, ask the Colombians or Brazilians who live
near the equator whether they're "ecuatorianos", too, or whether it's
okay that the Ecuadorians have usurped the word.

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R F - 01 Jan 2004 18:17 GMT
> > The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to
> > "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second
> > term has made the first term problematic, especially in speech.
>
> I think some of us right-pondians need a bit of explanation of that
> distinction.

The term "Native American" is an increasingly-used politically correct
term for "American Indian".  (I think also the increase in the number of
East Indian persons in the US has aided the growth of "Native American".)
A "native American", at one time at least, would have been understood to
mean a "native-born American" -- someone born in "America" (roughly, the
US regarded in poetic, romantic, non-political terms).
Richard Maurer - 02 Jan 2004 01:18 GMT
<< [Raymond S. Wise]
The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to "Native
American." However, the increase in the use of the second term has made the
first term problematic, especially in speech.
[end quote] >>

<< [Mike Stevens]
I think some of us right-pondians need a bit of explanation of that
distinction.
[end quote] >>

<< [R F]
The term "Native American" is an increasingly-used politically correct
term for "American Indian".  (I think also the increase in the number of
East Indian persons in the US has aided the growth of "Native American".)
A "native American", at one time at least, would have been understood to
mean a "native-born American" -- someone born in "America" (roughly, the
US regarded in poetic, romantic, non-political terms).
[end quote] >>

There was also recently a distinction made along the same lines between
"native American" and "American native".  I don't like it, but will mention
it for the benefit of those right-pondians who might be caught unaware.
I prefer the term "hundredth generation American", but it will probably
not catch on.  The "Native Americans" around here that I hear use
the term "Indians" to refer to themselves.

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Stevens - 02 Jan 2004 02:12 GMT
> << [Raymond S. Wise]
> The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to "Native
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> not catch on.  The "Native Americans" around here that I hear use
> the term "Indians" to refer to themselves.

I have a good friend who is a Native American with whom I was once
discussing the preferred description (I was still using "Amerind", which
dates me!).  She said she preferred simply to call herself a "native"
until I pointed out that we were having the conversation in London (UK),
where she certainly *wasn't* a native.

--
Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.yk
Old grammarians never die, they simply parse away.
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 02 Jan 2004 02:24 GMT
> "English [...] 5. also english a. The spin given to a propelled ball by
> striking it on one side or releasing it with a sharp twist. b. Bodily
> movement in an effort to influence the movement of a propelled object; body
> English."

Assuming this relates to billiards (and by extension to snooker and
pool), the word used in BrEnglish is "side" (or, in extreme instances,
"screw").

Signature

Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                          bhk@dsl.co.uk
   "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would.  Yet we are
   untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them".
                                             George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919

Tony Mountifield - 03 Jan 2004 16:49 GMT
> > "English [...] 5. also english a. The spin given to a propelled ball by
> > striking it on one side or releasing it with a sharp twist. b. Bodily
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> pool), the word used in BrEnglish is "side" (or, in extreme instances,
> "screw").

No, "screw" is back-spin and "side" is left- or right-spin. Neither is
an extreme instance of the other, although it is possible to apply both
at the same time.

Cheers,
Tony
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Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

Raymond S. Wise - 30 Dec 2003 06:35 GMT
> > > <snip>
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language",
> which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".)

Not where I come from (the state of Illinois, USA). When I had "English
class" in school, British English was rarely the subject of the class and
English English was a term I have read only in recent years. The following
is from *The Oxford Companion to the English Language* by Tom McArthur, (C)
1992, from a post I previously wrote for alt.usage.english :

See
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ufoodpccscef2a%40corp.supernews.com&output=
gplain


or

http://tinyurl.com/36pdh

[begin quote from Usenet post]

British English short form _BrE_

[...]

_Precision of reference._ [...] The English sociolinguist Peter Trudgill has
observed: 'My own preferred label for varieties of English from England is
"English English", by analogy with "American English", "Australian English"
etc.... Note that, whatever label is used, we have been careful in this book
to distinguish between the terms "English English" and "British English".
The latter is often used in literature, particularly, it seems, by Americans
and writers on English as a foreign language, where it is really the former
that is intended' (Introduction, _Language in the British Isles,_ 1984).

Kinds of British English.

It is not, however, surprising that the term _English English_ is not widely
used. To the English it seems as tautologous or as silly and inelegant as
'German German' and 'French French', whether or not there may be grounds for
using those names, as for example to distinguish German in Germany from
Austrian German and French in France from Quebec French. However, to many
Scots, Irish, and Welsh people, and to others with comparable perspectives,
some such term is essential to allow an explicit and productive contrast
among the British varieties of English. Equally, however, the term _Scottish
English_ can seem odd to English and Scots alike, because of the ethnic
sense of the word 'English': _Scottish English_ seems a contradiction in
terms. Similarly, the term _Irish English_ may seem bizarre, both because of
centuries-old connotations of illogic and whimsy acquired by the word
_Irish_ and because of the hostility of many in Ireland towards anything
that links them too closely with England.

[end quote from Usenet post]

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Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Mike Lyle - 30 Dec 2003 13:33 GMT
[...]
> http://tinyurl.com/36pdh
>
> [begin quote from Usenet post]

[...]

> It is not, however, surprising that the term _English English_ is not widely
> used. To the English it seems as tautologous or as silly and inelegant as
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> [end quote from Usenet post]

It's clear enough where your older post was "coming from", and I come
from much the same spot myself; but I must say I find it a little
speculative, or perhaps slightly exaggerated. Clearly the expression
"English English" sounds tautologous; but I've never met anybody who
didn't understand its usefulness, nor anybody who didn't readily
accept expressions such as "Welsh English" (though "Hiberno-English"
is quite often used rather than "Irish English", I think more for
North-South clarity than from any hostility to England). I don't think
anybody could regard the formula as a contradiction in terms.

In my experience a problem arises only when it's suggested that Scots
is a dialect of English. Scots seems to be a dialect only in the sense
in which English is a dialect; but even with that proviso sensitivity
exists because some people perceive the word "dialect" to mean
something like "sub-standard version". Scots is, of course, not the
same thing as Scottish English; but not many in England seem to know.

I often use "European English" to embrace the Irish and British
standard written and formal spoken versions, which are largely
indistinguishable, and to exclude ANZ etc non-American forms, though
they in turn are nearly indistinguishable from European usage.

Mike.
Einde O'Callaghan - 30 Dec 2003 10:24 GMT
<snip>

> (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language",
> which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".)

I would define it as the "the language that originated in England". For
better or worse the vast majority of native English speakers do not come
from England and even in england the majority of people don't speak
English with the so-called Received Pronunciation.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Alan Edgey - 30 Dec 2003 10:26 GMT
David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message

<snip>

> Whereas in English English (i.e. the English language of England), the
> domicile of {R} excepted, "may" is entirely outmoded and "can" rules
> supreme. Just one more step on the road to the pidgeon English to be
> used in the uppermost floor of the tower of Babel.

I didn't know pidgeons could speak. Thanks for your contribution to
the development of 'pidgin' English for the uppermost floor of the
tower of Babel.
This is, by the way, a long term project which has been going on as
long as humans can speak.
<snip>
> (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language",
> which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".)

Surely when 'English' is used to refer to the Language it includes any
variety anywhere?

Alan
David - 30 Dec 2003 19:56 GMT
> David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message

> <snip>

> > Whereas in English English (i.e. the English language of England),
> > the domicile of {R} excepted, "may" is entirely outmoded and "can"
> > rules supreme. Just one more step on the road to the pidgeon
> > English to be used in the uppermost floor of the tower of Babel.

> I didn't know pidgeons could speak. Thanks for your contribution to
> the development of 'pidgin' English for the uppermost floor of the
> tower of Babel.

"Pidgeon", also "pigeon" or "pidgin", is thought to be a Chinese
corruption of the word "business", as any good English dictionary
should tell you.

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Alan Edgey - 31 Dec 2003 16:32 GMT
> > David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message
>  
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> corruption of the word "business", as any good English dictionary
> should tell you.

Fair enough;-)

I still can't figure how varying use of can and may is leading to
pidginisation though. Language changes over time. You are simply
witnessing this in progress.
Once upon a time pedants used to find lots of what we now consider
correct barbarisms.

In the end it is the users of language who decide what is acceptable
and not language mavens - no matter how loud they might bleat - or
should that be may bleat?

Alan
David - 31 Dec 2003 17:55 GMT
> I still can't figure how varying use of can and may is leading to
> pidginisation though. Language changes over time. You are simply
> witnessing this in progress.
> Once upon a time pedants used to find lots of what we now consider
> correct barbarisms.

> In the end it is the users of language who decide what is acceptable
> and not language mavens - no matter how loud they might bleat - or
> should that be may bleat?

I was merely musing that useful difference of meaning is becoming
subsumed in this age of mass communication and universal semi-literacy.

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Jeffrey Zahn - 31 Dec 2003 22:17 GMT
In article
news:2d2028d5.0312310832.2e70d4e5@posting.google.com,
AlanEdgey@aol.com (Alan Edgey) wrote:

> Once upon a time pedants used to find lots of what we now
> consider correct barbarisms.

As opposed to incorrect barbarisms, I suppose.

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Jeffrey "Pendantry" Zahn

David - 31 Dec 2003 23:09 GMT
> In article
> news:2d2028d5.0312310832.2e70d4e5@posting.google.com,
> AlanEdgey@aol.com (Alan Edgey) wrote:

> > Once upon a time pedants used to find lots of what we now
> > consider correct barbarisms.

> As opposed to incorrect barbarisms, I suppose.

Like "Something for the weekend, sir?"

Sorry, couldn't resist it. HNY!

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Left Eye of Sin
Left Foot in the Depth of the Earth

Mike Stevens - 01 Jan 2004 08:46 GMT
>>> David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Once upon a time pedants used to find lots of what we now consider
> correct barbarisms.

That's certainly true,but is no reason to prevent some of us from
regretting those bits of linguistic change which reduce the subtlety and
range of the language.

--
Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.yk
Old grammarians never die, they simply parse away.
hsinatra - 01 Jan 2004 23:14 GMT
I agree, and so does Francis Bacon: "The ill and unfit choice of words
wonderfully obstructs the understanding."

Hank
> >>> David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> web site www.mike-stevens.co.yk
> Old grammarians never die, they simply parse away.
Mike Lyle - 31 Dec 2003 13:30 GMT
> David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Surely when 'English' is used to refer to the Language it includes any
> variety anywhere?

Of course it does. "English" just isn't a short form of "the language
used in England" -- and, as somebody pointed out, it didn't start with
that meaning; though clearly it *did* mean that for a few hundred
years. "Latin" hasn't meant "the language spoken in Latium" for some
time, either; further examples would be pointless.

As early as about 1850 Grimm (of Law and fairy-tale fame) predicted
that English would become "international property".

Mike.
Mike Stevens - 31 Dec 2003 15:54 GMT
>  "English" just isn't a short form of "the language
> used in England" -- and, as somebody pointed out, it didn't start with
> that meaning; though clearly it *did* mean that for a few hundred
> years.

Just so. The word English for the language predates the name England for
the place.  King Alfred writes of the English language,although he was
King of Wessex, one of several kingdoms which later (with a lot of
Viking involvement) coalesced to form England.  In fact it's probably
true to say that the first King of England was the Norseman Cnut.

--
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web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
Old teachers never die, they simply lose their class.
David - 31 Dec 2003 18:04 GMT
> >  "English" just isn't a short form of "the language used in
> > England" -- and, as somebody pointed out, it didn't start with that
> > meaning; though clearly it *did* mean that for a few hundred years.

> Just so. The word English for the language predates the name England
> for the place.  King Alfred writes of the English language,although
> he was King of Wessex, one of several kingdoms which later (with a
> lot of Viking involvement) coalesced to form England.  In fact it's
> probably true to say that the first King of England was the Norseman
> Cnut.

"English" (or its original form) might predate "England" but a thousand
years later, the Angles were forgotten by all but a few dozen
historians and "English" was certainly widely seen as the adjective
describing things of England, one of which was its tongue. I still say
that by the middle of the last millennium, the "English" of "the
English tongue" had for most precisely the same meaning as the
"English" of "the English parliament" or "the English garden". And were
it not for the fact that English colonialism (there we have it again!)
exported its tongue to other lands, "English" would be seen in the same
light as other languages named for their geographical or political base.

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Mike Stevens - 01 Jan 2004 08:56 GMT
> "English" (or its original form) might predate "England" but a
> thousand years later, the Angles were forgotten by all but a few dozen
> historians.

That's simply not true.  The Angles were certainly part of the common
currency of popular English history rather than known only to a small
academic elite.  The story of "non Anglii sed Angeli" was a common-place
of popular mythology  -  at least in the Church of England.

> And
> were it not for the fact that English colonialism (there we have it
> again!) exported its tongue to other lands, "English" would be seen
> in the same light as other languages named for their geographical or
> political base.

And colonialism didn't have analogous results for any other language?
Really!

--
Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

"I'm not an old fart, and I'm not an old bore,
Or a grumpy old b*gg*r like Evelyn Waugh"
(Christopher Matthew)
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 02 Jan 2004 02:24 GMT
> I didn't know pidgeons could speak.

That with the first name "Walter" could :-)

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mUs1Ka - 02 Jan 2004 13:26 GMT
>> I didn't know pidgeons could speak.
>
> That with the first name "Walter" could :-)

And Steven Seagull.
m.
Mike Stevens - 30 Dec 2003 15:40 GMT
>>>> The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for
>>>> something.
>>>
>>>> "Can" is strictly to be used to determine if something is
>>>> possible.

>>> Don't people use "can" both ways, nowadays?
>>>
>>> So, I wonder, how does that usage sound to "learned ears"?
>>> Colloquial? Working-class? Just wrong?

I'd say it sounds careless.

>> I consider it informal Standard American English--it would not be
>> remarkable, for example, to see a newspaper columnist use it. It's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> supreme. Just one more step on the road to the pidgeon English to be
> used in the uppermost floor of the tower of Babel.

I think that overstates the case.  What you say is probably true for UK
demotic speech, but for educated speech and writing the distinction
between "can" and "may" is still alive, if in rather poor health.

--
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web site www.mike-stevens.co.yk
Old grammarians never die, they simply parse away.
arachedeux - 30 Dec 2003 02:57 GMT
> <snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> So, I wonder, how does that usage sound to "learned ears"?
> Colloquial? Working-class? Just wrong?

Just wrong. Although if English isn't your mother tongue it would be bad
manners to point it out.
cheers,
Dr Robin Bignall - 31 Dec 2003 16:05 GMT
><snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Don't people use "can" both ways, nowadays?

They do, but Richard is right, strictly speaking.
Playful grandparents might indulge in the following:
Child: Can I turn the TV on?
GP: Probably, if your fingers still work and you know which button to
press.
C: May I turn the TV on.
GP: Of course.

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England

Robert Bannister - 01 Jan 2004 00:31 GMT
>><snip>
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> C: May I turn the TV on.
> GP: Of course.

The whole point being that (a) children have to be forced to do this,
(b) only children find themselves in the position of having to say "May
I" - in any other situation, one would paraphrase with some nonsense
like "Wouldn't it be better if we..."

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Aaron J. Dinkin - 30 Dec 2003 02:59 GMT
> The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for
> something.
>
> "Can" is strictly to be used to determine if something is possible.

So "may" is never used as in "It may be the case that what you say it true"?

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Voicer - 30 Dec 2003 08:34 GMT
> > The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for
> > something.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> -Aaron J. Dinkin
> Dr. Whom

North American usage, apparently influenced by the speech style on the
Seinfeld TV show, is now almost entirely "can" rather than  "may."
Also : "get" has replaced "have."

At McDonald's, it's now:  "Can I get  a burger with fries?"
This does not mean the customer is questioning whether he is capable of
finding his own food.

It sounds awful but why fight it?
Enrico C - 30 Dec 2003 08:49 GMT
> At McDonald's, it's now:  "Can I get  a burger with fries?"
snip
> It sounds awful but why fight it?

To reduce cholesterol? ;)

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Aaron J. Dinkin - 30 Dec 2003 14:48 GMT
> Also : "get" has replaced "have."
>
> At McDonald's, it's now:  "Can I get  a burger with fries?"
> This does not mean the customer is questioning whether he is capable of
> finding his own food.

No, it means the customer is inquiring whether it's possible ("can") for
him to purchase ("get") the food he wants. "Get" doesn't mean 'find'; it
means 'come into possession of'. I'm not sure what your problem with the
example sentence is.

(Actually, he's not inquiring whether it's possible; he knows that it is.
He's making a polite request, in the form of such an inquiry.)

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Mike Stevens - 30 Dec 2003 15:46 GMT
> Also : "get" has replaced "have."
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> It sounds awful but why fight it?

I wonder if that's actually a new use or rather a throw-back to an
earlier usage. In UK English the verb "get" can quite properly be used
to mean "be given" as in "For Christmas I got a lot of presents.", which
is, I estimate, at least as well-used as "For Christmas I had a lot of
presents.".

--
Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

"I'm not an old fart, and I'm not an old bore,
Or a grumpy old b*gg*r like Evelyn Waugh"
(Christopher Matthew)
Mike Lyle - 30 Dec 2003 20:52 GMT
> > Also : "get" has replaced "have."
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> is, I estimate, at least as well-used as "For Christmas I had a lot of
> presents.".

I assumed when I first heard it that it was a discreet way of
suggesting that the asker was quite prepared to fetch it or pay for it
himself, when "Can I have a cup of coffee?" might be taken as a
presumptuous request. Then, because new phrases catch on, especially
from the lips of notables, it spread out of control to situations
where it had no special significance.

We have no hesitation in understanding, e.g., "Can we get a coffee?"
as "Shall we go and have some coffee?"; or "Where can I get a drink?"
as "Where's the pub/bar?"

Mike.
Tony Mountifield - 31 Dec 2003 09:34 GMT
> > Also : "get" has replaced "have."
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> is, I estimate, at least as well-used as "For Christmas I had a lot of
> presents.".

An interesting US-ism the other way round with regard to "get":

In the UK, I might ask someone "Have you got a car?", and they might
reply "Yes, I have." However, I have asked an identically constructed
question of an American and they replied "Yes, I do." Do???
Then I realised they had heard the question as "Do you have a car?"
and replied to that perceived question.

Cheers,
Tony
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Skitt - 31 Dec 2003 18:34 GMT

>>> Also : "get" has replaced "have."
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Then I realised they had heard the question as "Do you have a car?"
> and replied to that perceived question.

You've got it!
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Phil C. - 31 Dec 2003 19:29 GMT
>>>> Also : "get" has replaced "have."
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>You've got it!

I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
one a year."
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Mike Lyle - 31 Dec 2003 23:48 GMT
>  
> >>>> Also : "get" has replaced "have."
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
> one a year."

This is one of my favourite AUE perennials. Maybe you've missed the
previous romps, Tony, so you might like to google the archive. I must
say Phil's anecdote is the best take on it so far, though.

Mike.
Tony Mountifield - 01 Jan 2004 12:00 GMT
> > I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
> > interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> previous romps, Tony, so you might like to google the archive. I must
> say Phil's anecdote is the best take on it so far, though.

Thanks, I haven't read AUE for quite a while; I'm reading this in UCLE.

Tony
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Dr Robin Bignall - 02 Jan 2004 00:40 GMT
>> > I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
>> > interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>Thanks, I haven't read AUE for quite a while; I'm reading this in UCLE.

We're all one big, happy family, Tony, in the English newsgroups.

[Drat! Broke a New Year Resolution already. I resolved to be more serious
in AUE.]

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Quiet part of Hertfordshire
England

Maria Conlon - 01 Jan 2004 00:10 GMT
> I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
> interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
> one a year."

What would the American interviewer have had to ask in order to get an
answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother
of?

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Peter Duncanson - 01 Jan 2004 02:19 GMT
>> I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
>> interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother
>of?

"Do you have any children?" would work perfectly well with any British woman
who was not looking for a chance to play with words.

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Truly Donovan - 01 Jan 2004 04:36 GMT
>>What would the American interviewer have had to ask in order to get an
>>answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother
>>of?
>
>"Do you have any children?" would work perfectly well with any British woman
>who was not looking for a chance to play with words.

How does a question that is most correctly answered with a "yes" or
"no" yield the number of children so encompassed?
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Peter Duncanson - 01 Jan 2004 12:01 GMT
>>>What would the American interviewer have had to ask in order to get an
>>>answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>How does a question that is most correctly answered with a "yes" or
>"no" yield the number of children so encompassed?

It seems I did not respond to the precise question asked by Maria Conlon.

I was making the point that the question asked by the American interviewer
was perfectly satisfactory in BrE.

Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield the number
of children, if any, without being potentially intrusive.

If a woman who has children is asked "Do you have any children?" she might
respond with the number and other details. If she simply replies "Yes", the
questioner has to judge by her tone of voice as to whether it is appropriate
to seek further information.

[1] In a conversational context.

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Phil C. - 01 Jan 2004 12:47 GMT
>>>>What would the American interviewer have had to ask in order to get an
>>>>answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield the number
>of children, if any, without being potentially intrusive.

I suppose it could be argued that to ask the question at all might be
considered intrusive in British culture. The degree to which we avoid
personal questions certainly surprises my European friends.
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Dena Jo - 01 Jan 2004 15:53 GMT
> Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield
> the number of children, if any, without being potentially
> intrusive.

I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but
then you Brits are probably more polite and less casual than us Yanks.

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R F - 01 Jan 2004 18:02 GMT
> > Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield
> > the number of children, if any, without being potentially
> > intrusive.
>
> I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but
> then you Brits are probably more polite and less casual than us Yanks.

It's 'cause they live on an island.
Giles Todd - 01 Jan 2004 23:13 GMT
> > I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but
> > then you Brits are probably more polite and less casual than us Yanks.
>
> It's 'cause they live on an island.

Not all of us.

Giles.
Peter Duncanson - 01 Jan 2004 18:20 GMT
>> Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield
>> the number of children, if any, without being potentially
>> intrusive.
>
>I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but

It would depend on the circumstances.

>then you Brits are probably more polite and less casual than us Yanks.

A wide and wild generalization. :-)

We have some very impolite and some very causal Brits, and some who are both
very impolite and very casual. Of course if you want a competition we could
put your worst and our worst together on a small island somewhere with live
TV streaming to the world. This could give us a reality TV show - "Slobs and
Yobs" or some such title.

I googled to check that "Slobs and Yobs" was not in use and found this on
the results page:

"... Ironically, the Americans I know are very aristocratic. We have become
a nation of slobs and yobs, thugs and slugs. I am loyal to an England that
has gone. ..."
(Frustratingly the associated link is broken.)


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John Hall - 02 Jan 2004 10:53 GMT
>>I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>A wide and wild generalization. :-)

Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New
York City) tend to be more polite than the British.
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Dena Jo - 02 Jan 2004 15:03 GMT
> Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New
> York City) tend to be more polite than the British.

That's interesting.  After spending a year in England, when I returned
home to Los Angeles, I thought everyone was rude to me.  When I
complained to someone about it, they responded, "But Dena, they were
rude before you left!"

It took me a while to readjust.  

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R F - 02 Jan 2004 18:38 GMT
> Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New
> York City) tend to be more polite than the British.

My experience has been that New York City Natives and Foreign-Born
Immigrants are more polite than most Americans, who are (at least
superficially) less polite than the non-hooligan British.  The most
impolite Americans are in the Upper Midwest.  Not Chicago, as you might
think, but Central Wisconsin.
Skitt - 02 Jan 2004 18:43 GMT
>> Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New
>> York City) tend to be more polite than the British.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> impolite Americans are in the Upper Midwest.  Not Chicago, as you
> might think, but Central Wisconsin.

Well, they are pissed off because they live in Central Wisconsin.
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rzed - 02 Jan 2004 20:12 GMT
> >> Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New
> >> York City) tend to be more polite than the British.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Well, they are pissed off because they live in Central Wisconsin.

Not knowing what RF means by "Central Wisconsin," I can only assume that
he's specifically referring to the residents of Portage, Marshfield, Wausau,
Stevens Point, or the areas nearby to those places. By stretching the
definition a little, we could imagine it to include areas as far afield as
Tomah, Ripon (birthplace of the Republican Party), Medford, and Mole Lake.
The combined population of the area is surely less than that of Brooklyn, NY
(one of the larger boroughs in the City of New York). In other words,
there's no "they" there.

None of the places were held to be particularly impolite when I were a lad
in the Badger State (though near Tomah I once received a ticket for
hitchhiking inappropriately, thereby demonstrating my own rudeness), so I
would expect the people in the region to be about as polite as those in the
rest of Wisconsin, all of whom I know I know to be reasonably affable and
pleasant unless they are provoked.

Knowing that RF's statements are based exclusively on his direct personal
experience, it seems obvious that there is an underlying story waiting to be
told. I can speculate (though I'll leave most of that to Tony) about what
circumstances might have brought about the uncharacteristic social
transgression RF has in mind. Possibly it was due to his explaining that the
accents he heard were incorrect because they did not participate in the
Northern Exurban Consonant Elision or some such thing.

The people that live there (and, Skitt, they live there because they want
to, for some reason) do have one curious quirk, though, and that is their
antipathy to Illinois residents. Perhaps they misunderstood Richard's true
situation. It could be as simple as that. RF, have you licensed that car of
yours *with Illinois plates?* If so, no further explanation is needed.

--
rzed
Raymond S. Wise - 02 Jan 2004 19:58 GMT
> > Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New
> > York City) tend to be more polite than the British.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> impolite Americans are in the Upper Midwest.  Not Chicago, as you might
> think, but Central Wisconsin.

But we're Upper Midwest also and we're Minnesota Nice(TM)!

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Tony Cooper - 02 Jan 2004 22:01 GMT
>> Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New
>> York City) tend to be more polite than the British.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>impolite Americans are in the Upper Midwest.  Not Chicago, as you might
>think, but Central Wisconsin.

You could come away from Central Wisconsin with that impression.  All
you need do is strike up some conversations with Central Wisconsin
residents with opening lines like:

"I suppose that you are one of those people that labor under the
impression that what you are eating there is a sandwich."

"You look like one of those farmer-faced people who live in Chicago
and think that you are from a real city."

"You call this pizza?"

"I suppose you're going to tell me you're a Midwesterner?"

"Oy!"
Robert Bannister - 02 Jan 2004 00:09 GMT
>>Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield
>>the number of children, if any, without being potentially
>>intrusive.
>
> I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but
> then you Brits are probably more polite and less casual than us Yanks.

Depends on the age and whether the person's marital status is known. My
answer to that question would have to be "None that I know of."

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Dr Robin Bignall - 02 Jan 2004 00:46 GMT
>> Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield
>> the number of children, if any, without being potentially
>> intrusive.
>
>I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but
>then you Brits are probably more polite and less casual than us Yanks.

We probably are, Deej, but some of us work on it over several decades until
we get to the point of being able to ask "How many children do you have,
Deej?" without embarrassment, and with only the hint of a grin.

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Quiet part of Hertfordshire
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Mike Lyle - 01 Jan 2004 13:59 GMT
[...]

> >"Do you have any children?" would work perfectly well with any British woman
> >who was not looking for a chance to play with words.
>
> How does a question that is most correctly answered with a "yes" or
> "no" yield the number of children so encompassed?

Peter's right, of course. But as we've mentioned before, British usage
preserves the present-simple habitual force of "Do you have...?" and
"I don't have..." as well as recognizing, and sometimes using, the
"American" use in which these present-simple questions and negatives
equate to the British "Have you got...?" and "I haven't got...".

I can't see that it would be *incorrect* to answer such questions with
something other than "Yes" or "No".

Mike.
Mike Stevens - 01 Jan 2004 09:17 GMT
>>> I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
>>> interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> "Do you have any children?" would work perfectly well with any
> British woman who was not looking for a chance to play with words.

But "Have you got any children?" would be more idiomatic.  Even though
(I say, getting my retaliation in first) a pedant could possibly gloss
this as "Have you begotten any children?", which would of course be a
nonsense question to a woman.

--
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web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
"Million-to-one chances come up nine times out of ten." (Terry
Pratchett)
david56 - 01 Jan 2004 11:46 GMT
mike.fc2@which.net spake thus:

> >>> I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
> >>> interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> this as "Have you begotten any children?", which would of course be a
> nonsense question to a woman.

From The Last Goon Show of All (about 1974, I think), and from
memory:

- Do you still have the same secretary?

- Yes, I still have her.  Nobody's noticed.

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=====

Robert Bannister - 02 Jan 2004 00:05 GMT
>>>I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
>>>interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> "Do you have any children?" would work perfectly well with any British woman
> who was not looking for a chance to play with words.

You're surely not serious. True, if the woman was aware she was being
spoken to by an American, she would make some effort to understand this
to non-American ears, odd form of the question, but you must know
perfectly well that "Have you (got)" is the preferred and less ambiguous
form. "Do you" questions usually refer to habitual actions.

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Matti Lamprhey - 02 Jan 2004 00:18 GMT
"Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote...

> >>>I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
> >>>interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> perfectly well that "Have you (got)" is the preferred and less
> ambiguous form. "Do you" questions usually refer to habitual actions.

No -- Peter is quite right.  "Do you have any children?" is the standard
British version, with "Have you got any children?" positioned one
subregister below it.

Matti
Peter Duncanson - 02 Jan 2004 00:34 GMT
>>>>I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
>>>>interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>perfectly well that "Have you (got)" is the preferred and less ambiguous
>form. "Do you" questions usually refer to habitual actions.

I did not express an opinion as to whether "do you have" is the preferred
form. I simply said that it would 'work' in the question "Do you have any
children?" In that particular context the possibility of ambiguity is surely
minimal, even zero.

This is not a point on which I feel strongly. I have no intention of heading
out into the streets with clipboard to conduct an unscientific survey.

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Tony Mountifield - 01 Jan 2004 11:54 GMT
> > I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
> > interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother
> of?

"Have you got (any) children?"

Tony
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Tony Mountifield
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John A. Green - 02 Jan 2004 13:08 GMT
>> I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
>> interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother
>of?

Possibly "Have you any children?" might persuade her to reply, "I have
n childer."
John

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Richard Kaulfuss - 02 Jan 2004 20:21 GMT
>> I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American
>> interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother
>of?

 "Have you got any gets?"

Signature

 Dick

Richard Maurer - 31 Dec 2003 05:10 GMT
<< [R]
The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for
something.

"Can" is strictly to be used to determine if something is possible.

Can that circus ride go backwards?
May I have a go on that circus ride?
[end quote] >>

But this is not as simple as it looks,
especially if a third party is involved.  Consider
   "Can you pick up a carton of milk on your way home from work?"
where one adult makes a request of another.  Also
   "Can I go on this ride Daddy?"
where besides the permission of the parent, there are also
the rules of the establishment to consider.  It may be that
they will not let the child go on the ride until he is 3 foot tall,
even though the child is perfectly capable.
   
In a poolside eatery
   "Can I get a margarita?"
asks whether the system allows it; there is not a question of
the waiter giving you permission.

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
{R} - 01 Jan 2004 01:35 GMT
In uk.culture.language.english on Wed, 31 Dec 2003 05:10:11 GMT,

}<< [R]
}The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for
}something.
}
}"Can" is strictly to be used to determine if something is possible.
}
}Can that circus ride go backwards?
}May I have a go on that circus ride?
}[end quote] >>
}
}But this is not as simple as it looks,
}especially if a third party is involved.  Consider
}    "Can you pick up a carton of milk on your way home from work?"

Is that asking if "is it possible for you to ...
or is it asking "Will you ....

}where one adult makes a request of another.  Also
}    "Can I go on this ride Daddy?"

}where besides the permission of the parent, there are also
}the rules of the establishment to consider.  It may be that
}they will not let the child go on the ride until he is 3 foot tall,
}even though the child is perfectly capable.

Indeed so "can" should be used to inquire about possibility, whereas
"may" is asking permission.
   
}In a poolside eatery
}    "Can I get a margarita?"
}asks whether the system allows it; there is not a question of
}the waiter giving you permission.

Yes, but "May I have a ..." assumes that it is possible.

{R}
John Lawler - 30 Dec 2003 20:16 GMT
>> "May" is used for this meaning too, just as it also expresses
>> possibility. It is considered slightly more formal.

>Anyway, when I used *can* as less formal *may*, some native speakers
>corrected me.

Pay no attention; this is one of the foibles of English.

"May" and "can" are both 'possible' modals, contrasting with 'necessary'
modals like "must", "should", and "will".  One of the reasons why there have
to be more than one 'possible' modal in a language (which hasn't yet been
mentioned in this thread, and which is why I comment at this late date) is
to provide a distinction between the two ways negation can combine with
possibility.

'Not' and 'possible' are both logical operators with a scope (like
quantifiers) and thus either can include the other in its scope.  
So 'possible (not (x))' is quite different from 'not (possible (x))',
as their respective paraphrases show:

1)  It's possible that he's not home.  
2)  It's not possible that he's home.

With modal auxiliaries, the plot thickens, because in English
they have to be followed by negation, by strict syntactic rules.

3) *He doesn't may/can be home.

The solution, in the typical style of the Unconscious Generations, is to use
two auxiliaries, one with inside scope when negated, and the other with
outside scope.

4)  He may not be home.  = (1)
5)  He can't be home.    = (2)

That keeps them both around, and gives people a choice to make between them
in the affirmative, where there is no such logical distinction between them.  
Naturally, people make such choices based on their own concepts, which arise
and change without notice and don't agree much with one another.  That
doesn't matter; their utility in the negative keeps them distinct there,
while their usage in the affirmative, like all great art, lies in the eye
(or, in this case, ear) of the beholder.

-John Lawler  http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler  Michigan Linguistics Dept
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Language is the most massive and inclusive art we know, a  - Edward Sapir
mountainous and anonymous work of unconscious generations."   'Language'
Tony Mountifield - 31 Dec 2003 09:43 GMT
>  3) *He doesn't may/can be home.

I wondered if the * was put in anticipating the insertion of a
footnote which was then forgotten, explaining that may and can
can't really be used as infinitives.

I have always wondered why modal verbs in English do not have
infinitive forms on the same stem. German has "können", "müssen",
"dürfen", etc., but English cannot say "to can", "to must", "to may".

Cheers,
Tony
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Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

Mike Lyle - 31 Dec 2003 14:25 GMT
[...]
> I have always wondered why modal verbs in English do not have
> infinitive forms on the same stem. German has "können", "müssen",
> "dürfen", etc., but English cannot say "to can", "to must", "to may".

Ain't spoke to many cowboys lately, then, pardner? Not present, I
agree, but "Useta could" clearly contains an infinitive. As
conversational spice I sometimes inject "I didn't use to couldn't".

Mike.
Tony Mountifield - 31 Dec 2003 15:52 GMT
> [...]
> > I have always wondered why modal verbs in English do not have
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> agree, but "Useta could" clearly contains an infinitive. As
> conversational spice I sometimes inject "I didn't use to couldn't".

Hehe... interesting construct - a "past-tense infinitive"!

Tony
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Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org

John Lawler - 31 Dec 2003 19:14 GMT
>>  3) *He doesn't may/can be home.

>I wondered if the * was put in anticipating the insertion of a
>footnote which was then forgotten, explaining that may and can
>can't really be used as infinitives.

The * is to mark the sentence as ungrammatical.

>I have always wondered why modal verbs in English do not have
>infinitive forms on the same stem. German has "können", "müssen",
>"dürfen", etc., but English cannot say "to can", "to must", "to may".

Right.  English modal auxiliaries, however, unlike German ones,
are defective verbs and don't have any inflected forms, which includes
infinitives (the infinitive inflection is -0 -- 'zero'), and therefore
must always be the first auxiliary in any verb phrase they occur in.

That this is a recent development is shown by the German cognates
and by the fact that many dialects of English allow multiple modal
constructions ('might could, might should', etc.) and other idioms
involving infinitives, like 'useta could'.  

-John Lawler  http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler  Michigan Linguistics Dept
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
"Language is the most massive and inclusive art we know, a  - Edward Sapir
mountainous and anonymous work of unconscious generations."   'Language'
Molly Mockford - 01 Jan 2004 13:57 GMT
>Anyway, when I used *can* as less formal *may*, some native speakers
>corrected me

It tends to be assumed that non-native speakers want to learn correct
English, rather than the sloppy version which many of us native speakers
tend to employ.  If you know what's the right usage, you then have the
choice whether or not actually to use it.

>So, I mean, you never know. how to make everybody happy!
>:-/

Happy New Year?
Signature

Molly Mockford
I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that
lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Raymond S. Wise - 28 Dec 2003 00:57 GMT
> "you must have liked it a lot".

Make that "You must have liked it a lot."

> Is that sentence correct? And what does it means precisely?

Yes, it is correct. The speaker (or writer) would be responding to another
person who had related the story of something--the "it"--and who had seemed
to like the thing or event in question. Most of the time, the speaker would
be expecting the other person to agree that yes, he did like it.

For example:

John: When I first got a computer, I stayed up all night seeing what I could
do with it.

Mary: You must have liked it [i.e., the computer] a lot.

John: Of course!

Or:

John: On my vacation, my brother and I went fishing every day.

Mary: You must have liked it [i.e. going fishing with his brother] a lot.

John: Sure. I wish we could do it every year.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Richard Maurer - 28 Dec 2003 03:35 GMT
<< [Franco]
"you must have liked it a lot".

Is that sentence correct? And what does it means precisely?
[end quote] >>

<< [Mark Brader]
Here the word "must" implies that a conclusion is being drawn.  "There's
no traffic outside the stadium.  There must not be a game this evening."
In this case the conclusion is that "you" liked it a lot.
[end quote] >>

The "must" might be confusing.  It is not a command.
Approximately, it is a tentative yet emphatic form of
   "you liked it a lot".

For "precisely", take Mark Brader's comment into account.
When used in dialog a confirmation often follows.

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Bailey - 28 Dec 2003 05:02 GMT
> "you must have liked it a lot".
>
> Is that sentence correct?

Yes.

> And what does it means precisely?

It means: I infer from what you have done or said since you saw the film
that you loved it.

Adrian
 
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