You must have liked it a lot
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Franco - 28 Dec 2003 00:35 GMT "you must have liked it a lot".
Is that sentence correct? And what does it means precisely?
thank you Franco
arachedeux - 28 Dec 2003 00:48 GMT > "you must have liked it a lot". > > Is that sentence correct? No you should start a sentence with a capital letter. ;-} cheers,
Mike Stevens - 28 Dec 2003 00:51 GMT > "you must have liked it a lot". > > Is that sentence correct? And what does it means precisely? In my view it's perfectly correct idiomatic (but perhaps not formal literary) UK English.
I'm a bit stuck to paraphrase it, because to me it's self explanatory. Perhaps "I would assume you were extremely fond of it".
--
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Franco - 28 Dec 2003 01:01 GMT Mike Stevens ha scritto nel messaggio ...
>> "you must have liked it a lot". >> >> Is that sentence correct? And what does it means precisely? > >In my view it's perfectly correct idiomatic (but perhaps not formal >literary) UK English. What is another way of saying that?
bye Franco
Einde O'Callaghan - 28 Dec 2003 01:18 GMT > Mike Stevens ha scritto nel messaggio ... > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What is another way of saying that? "You seem to have liked it a lot" or "It seems (that) you liked it a lot" have a similar meaning.
Regards, Einde O'callaghan
Mark Brader - 28 Dec 2003 02:24 GMT "Franco": ]>>>> "you must have liked it a lot".
>>>> Is that sentence correct? Mike Stevens:
>>> In my view it's perfectly correct idiomatic (but perhaps not formal >>> literary) UK English. "Franco":
>> What is another way of saying that? He means, people in the UK would say it in everyday speech and consider it perfectly correct, but they might not use it in formal or literary writing.
I think this is also true in North America.
>>>> And what does it means precisely? (That should be "mean"; when you use an auxiliary verb like "does", you don't inflect the main verb for number.)
Here the word "must" implies that a conclusion is being drawn. "There's no traffic outside the stadium. There must not be a game this evening." In this case the conclusion is that "you" liked it a lot.
Einde O'Callaghan:
> "You seem to have liked it a lot" or "It seems (that) you liked it a > lot" have a similar meaning. Indeed.
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Dr Robin Bignall - 28 Dec 2003 23:07 GMT >> Mike Stevens ha scritto nel messaggio ... >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >"You seem to have liked it a lot" or "It seems (that) you liked it a >lot" have a similar meaning. Maybe any confusion comes from the word 'must', which implies compulsion. The phrase is used so frequently both sides of the Atlantic that it has become an idiom, in that separate translation of each word does not work. Perhaps literally "You liked it so very much that you felt compelled to like it, such that you have never stopped talking about it since you saw/heard it" might do. The original is easier to say.
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Einde O'Callaghan - 29 Dec 2003 00:47 GMT >>>Mike Stevens ha scritto nel messaggio ... >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Maybe any confusion comes from the word 'must', which implies compulsion. "Must" is also used when drawing conclusions., e.g. "I've just heard John has had a serious accident. Jane must be very worried."
None of the English modals has one single unabmbiguous meaning, e.g. "can" for both "be allowed to" and "be able to".
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Tony Mountifield - 29 Dec 2003 10:17 GMT > None of the English modals has one single unabmbiguous meaning, e.g. > "can" for both "be allowed to" and "be able to". I remember as a child being taught to use "may" for the former.
Tony
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Einde O'Callaghan - 29 Dec 2003 13:01 GMT >>None of the English modals has one single unabmbiguous meaning, e.g. >>"can" for both "be allowed to" and "be able to". > > I remember as a child being taught to use "may" for the former. "May" is used for this meaning too, just as it also expresses possibility. It is considered slightly more formal.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Enrico C - 29 Dec 2003 16:54 GMT > "May" is used for this meaning too, just as it also expresses > possibility. It is considered slightly more formal. Anyway, when I used *can* as less formal *may*, some native speakers corrected me
So, I mean, you never know. how to make everybody happy!
:-/
 Signature Enrico C ~ No native speaker
Einde O'Callaghan - 29 Dec 2003 20:12 GMT >>"May" is used for this meaning too, just as it also expresses >>possibility. It is considered slightly more formal. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So, I mean, you never know. how to make everybody happy! > :-/ Certainly in English as spoken in Ireland "may" is regarded as very formal and "can" is much more common. English speakers from other areas might disagree, but I don't think it's a usage where I would correct somebody.
There is one usage of "can" where "mayW is impossible, i.e. when making a request, e.g. "Can you open the window, please?", although here "could" is a bit more formal.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
{R} - 29 Dec 2003 20:21 GMT In uk.culture.language.english on Mon, 29 Dec 2003 17:54:11 +0100,
}Einde O'Callaghan | alt.usage.english,uk.culture.language.english }in <news:bsp8jf$es21t$1@ID-93601.news.uni-berlin.de> } }> "May" is used for this meaning too, just as it also expresses }> possibility. It is considered slightly more formal. } }Anyway, when I used *can* as less formal *may*, some native speakers }corrected me
Possibly correctly IMO.
The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for something.
"Can" is strictly to be used to determine if something is possible.
Can that circus ride go backwards? May I have a go on that circus ride?
{R}
Enrico C - 29 Dec 2003 20:47 GMT <snip>
> The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for > something.
> "Can" is strictly to be used to determine if something is possible.
> Can that circus ride go backwards? > May I have a go on that circus ride? > > {R} Hi Richard,
Don't people use "can" both ways, nowadays?
So, I wonder, how does that usage sound to "learned ears"? Colloquial? Working-class? Just wrong?
 Signature Enrico C ~ No native speaker
Raymond S. Wise - 29 Dec 2003 22:45 GMT > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > So, I wonder, how does that usage sound to "learned ears"? > Colloquial? Working-class? Just wrong? I consider it informal Standard American English--it would not be remarkable, for example, to see a newspaper columnist use it. It's certainly not "just wrong," nor is it a particularly working class usage. I'd expect to see "may" used more often in formal writing.
See the entry for "can and may" in *The American Heritage Book of English Usage* at http://www.bartleby.com/64/pages/page10.html
That's American usage, though. For all I know, British usage may be different.
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David - 30 Dec 2003 02:24 GMT > > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > > -- Enrico C ~ No native speaker
> I consider it informal Standard American English--it would not be > remarkable, for example, to see a newspaper columnist use it. It's > certainly not "just wrong," nor is it a particularly working class > usage. I'd expect to see "may" used more often in formal writing. Whereas in English English (i.e. the English language of England), the domicile of {R} excepted, "may" is entirely outmoded and "can" rules supreme. Just one more step on the road to the pidgeon English to be used in the uppermost floor of the tower of Babel.
> See the entry for "can and may" in *The American Heritage Book of > English Usage* at http://www.bartleby.com/64/pages/page10.html
> That's American usage, though. For all I know, British usage may be > different. And English English different from that!
(Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language", which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".)
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Richard Maurer - 30 Dec 2003 03:12 GMT << [David] (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language", which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".) [end quote] >>
(Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language",
With you so far...
which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".)
Not that far, if meant to be exhaustive. It is also shorthand for the dominant language used in the USA, Canada, Australia, ... Also shorthand for our mainstream language instead of technical jargon. Also shorthand for our mainstream language instead of legal jargon. Also shorthand for our mainstream language instead of bureaucratese.
However, if I were in England, I would agree that it is accurate as far as it goes (if not also talking about English in other places). So we only need a small modification (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language", which in turn is shorthand in England for "the language used in England".)
Though I doubt that there was any doubt about that.
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David - 30 Dec 2003 09:40 GMT > << [David] (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English > language", which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in > England".) [end quote] >>
> (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English > language",
> With you so far...
> which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".)
> Not that far, if meant to be exhaustive. It is also shorthand for > the dominant language used in the USA, Canada, Australia, ... Also > shorthand for our mainstream language instead of technical jargon. > Also shorthand for our mainstream language instead of legal jargon. > Also shorthand for our mainstream language instead of bureaucratese. Ah, yes. Of course folks in all those other places also use the language of England, i.e. the English language, even though they are not natives of England, i.e. not English natives.
Has it not struck you that the word English is an adjective pertaining to England?
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Raymond S. Wise - 30 Dec 2003 10:45 GMT > > << [David] (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English > > language", which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Has it not struck you that the word English is an adjective pertaining > to England? If you're going to argue from etymology, then no, "English" does not pertain to England. It comes from Old English "Englisc," meaning "pertaining to the Angles, a Low German tribe," as _The Century Dictionary_ ( www.century-dictionary.com ) puts it. The name "England" came later: It's a Middle English term.
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Enrico C - 30 Dec 2003 10:57 GMT > If you're going to argue from etymology, then no, "English" does not pertain > to England. It comes from Old English "Englisc," meaning "pertaining to the > Angles, a Low German tribe," as _The Century Dictionary_ ( > www.century-dictionary.com ) puts it. The name "England" came later: It's a > Middle English term. All right... but, what has it got to do with "May / Can" ? :)
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Einde O'Callaghan - 30 Dec 2003 12:21 GMT >>If you're going to argue from etymology, then no, "English" does not pertain >>to England. It comes from Old English "Englisc," meaning "pertaining to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > All right... but, what has it got to do with "May / Can" ? :) This is Usenet - these things happen. We could just as well be discussing modern art or pottery making or Donald Duck's Greatest Hits at this stage in the thread. ;-)
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
David - 30 Dec 2003 20:13 GMT > > Has it not struck you that the word English is an adjective > > pertaining to England?
> If you're going to argue from etymology, then no, "English" does not > pertain to England. It comes from Old English "Englisc," meaning > "pertaining to the Angles, a Low German tribe," as _The Century > Dictionary_ ( www.century-dictionary.com ) puts it. The name > "England" came later: It's a Middle English term. So what's that you're writing in? It's certainly not the language of the Angles; it is (a variant of) the language of the English (people) who are a mixture of Britons, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, French, and just about every people who have ever wandered from their homelands, and who are called English not because of their tongue but because of their geographic and/or political status.
Who was arguing from etymology?
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Raymond S. Wise - 31 Dec 2003 04:41 GMT > > > Has it not struck you that the word English is an adjective > > > pertaining to England? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Who was arguing from etymology? You certainly appeared to be, with your comment "Has it not struck you that the word English is an adjective pertaining to England?" Either the meaning of "English" when speaking about the language pertains to the language itself, with the history of the word being irrelevant--this is how linguists would ordinarily see it, in order to avoid the etymological fallacy--or the meaning of "English" when speaking about the language pertains to the meaning of the etymon of the word, which meaning is not derived from "England."
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David - 31 Dec 2003 09:47 GMT > > Who was arguing from etymology?
> You certainly appeared to be, with your comment "Has it not struck > you that the word English is an adjective pertaining to England?" [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > speaking about the language pertains to the meaning of the etymon of > the word, which meaning is not derived from "England." So, you postulate that "English" does not mean the same as "English"?
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Raymond S. Wise - 31 Dec 2003 15:14 GMT > > > Who was arguing from etymology? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So, you postulate that "English" does not mean the same as "English"? Yes, indeed. I am of English ancestry and I speak the English language. But the first "English" means something very different from the second "English."
A word's meaning is determined by its usage, not by its etymology. In another thread in alt.usage.english , we have been discussing the words "specie" and "species." Looked at from the point of view of etymology, these represent the same word. Looked at from the point of view of meaning, they are two different words. So it is with "English," although there is no difference in form.
*The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language,* 4th ed. at http://www.bartleby.com/61/61/E0146100.html
shows an additional sense of "English" in which there sometimes is a different form. "English" with the following meaning in sports is sometimes written uncapitalized:
"English [...] 5. also english a. The spin given to a propelled ball by striking it on one side or releasing it with a sharp twist. b. Bodily movement in an effort to influence the movement of a propelled object; body English."
But even when left uncapitalized, the difference in meaning remains.
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David - 31 Dec 2003 17:50 GMT [Snip]
> But even when left uncapitalized, the difference in meaning remains. Ah, yes! When I think about "American", I can see what you mean.
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Raymond S. Wise - 31 Dec 2003 18:30 GMT > [Snip] > > > But even when left uncapitalized, the difference in meaning remains. > > Ah, yes! When I think about "American", I can see what you mean. An excellent example: "The prehistoric Americans" means something entirely different from "the Americans" as the term is ordinarily used today. And for still another meaning, consider that George Washington was born an American, but not in the same sense that I was born an American.
The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second term has made the first term problematic, especially in speech.
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David - 31 Dec 2003 20:30 GMT > > [Snip] > > > > > But even when left uncapitalized, the difference in meaning > > > remains. > > > > Ah, yes! When I think about "American", I can see what you mean.
> An excellent example: "The prehistoric Americans" means something > entirely different from "the Americans" as the term is ordinarily > used today. And for still another meaning, consider that George > Washington was born an American, but not in the same sense that I was > born an American.
> The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to > "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second > term has made the first term problematic, especially in speech. I was thinking rather of the purely adjectival use of the word. Seeing the adjective thus used as a noun shorthand leads to all sorts of problems for it takes on a life of its own far in excess of the original intention. Take those north if the border, for example, who accept gladly the 16th century shortening of "Scottish" when used as the name of their vile national drink but are up in arms when it is used as the common adjective. Curiously, they cleave to the 14th century short form in preference to the full word.
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Mike Stevens - 01 Jan 2004 08:59 GMT > The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to > "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second > term has made the first term problematic, especially in speech. I think some of us right-pondians need a bit of explanation of that distinction.
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man.
Dave Fawthrop - 01 Jan 2004 09:21 GMT | > The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to | > "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second | > term has made the first term problematic, especially in speech. | | I think some of us right-pondians need a bit of explanation of that | distinction. I sometimes think that American is as difficult as Mandarin :-(
Dave F
Molly Mockford - 01 Jan 2004 13:11 GMT >> The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to >> "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second >> term has made the first term problematic, especially in speech. > >I think some of us right-pondians need a bit of explanation of that >distinction. I would assume that native Americans were born in the USA (asyermightsay), whereas Native Americans had ancestors born in the American continent all the way back to pre-history.
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Mike Stevens - 01 Jan 2004 17:07 GMT > >> The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to > >> "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (asyermightsay), whereas Native Americans had ancestors born in the > American continent all the way back to pre-history. I see. One of the them is a case of the "America"="USA" problem and the other refers to the continent. I do wish that bit of linguistic confusion could be cleared up.
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Don't you just hate rhetorical questions?
hsinatra - 01 Jan 2004 23:24 GMT When I accompanied my friend Juan Hernadez, who holds dual citizenship, to Mexico, he advised me not to say that I was an "American." The Mexicans, Central Americans, and South Americans also consider themselves as "Americans." To keep down the confusion we answered that we were Norte Americanos de Esatdos Unidos. I guess it depends on the audience.
Hank
> > >> The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to > > >> "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk > Don't you just hate rhetorical questions? John Holmes - 02 Jan 2004 12:03 GMT > When I accompanied my friend Juan Hernadez, who holds dual > citizenship, to Mexico, he advised me not to say that I was an > "American." The Mexicans, Central Americans, and South Americans also > consider themselves as "Americans." To keep down the confusion we > answered that we were Norte Americanos de Esatdos Unidos. I guess it > depends on the audience. Thanks, Hank. When I've mentioned that here before, some posters from the US flat out refused to believe that it happens.
By the way, as you seem to be new to AUE, the custom here is to type your reply comments *below* the bit that you are replying to, and to remove any of the earlier comments that are no longer needed.
-- Regards John
Donna Richoux - 03 Jan 2004 14:04 GMT > > When I accompanied my friend Juan Hernadez, who holds dual > > citizenship, to Mexico, he advised me not to say that I was an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Thanks, Hank. When I've mentioned that here before, some posters from > the US flat out refused to believe that it happens. Well, stuh-rick-ly speaking, what we have here is someone reporting that they were once warned by a friend not to use the word because it might offend others.
Which is no different than someone posting here warning us not to use the term because it might offend others.
What we need are more of those stories about somebody being and acted offended when it *was* used. Didn't we hear about a street brawl, once?
Oh, hsinatra, what language were you speaking when you avoided calling yourself American? Do you mean that you were speaking Spanish and were advised not to say (merely) Americano?
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John Holmes - 03 Jan 2004 23:56 GMT >>> When I accompanied my friend Juan Hernadez, who holds dual >>> citizenship, to Mexico, he advised me not to say that I was an [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Which is no different than someone posting here warning us not to use > the term because it might offend others. What was denied on the previous occasion that I was thinking of was that people of Central or South America call themselves "American" at all. The above looks like fairly authoritative confirmation that they do. A poster from Brazil said something along the same lines here a few months ago. -- Regards John
MLC - 04 Jan 2004 10:25 GMT Il 04/gen/2004 _John Holmes_ ha scritto:
>>>> When I accompanied my friend Juan Hernadez, who holds dual >>>> citizenship, to Mexico, he advised me not to say that I was an [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > poster from Brazil said something along the same lines here a few months > ago. From Canadian people too I heard that this appropriation of the word "American" from USA citizens is a bit upsetting. Also here in Italy I note that among educated people there is a great attention on saying "statunitensi" against "americani", and I think it is fair.
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David - 04 Jan 2004 19:40 GMT > Il 04/gen/2004 _John Holmes_ ha scritto:
> > What was denied on the previous occasion that I was thinking of was > > that people of Central or South America call themselves "American" > > at all. The above looks like fairly authoritative confirmation that > > they do. A poster from Brazil said something along the same lines > > here a few months ago.
> From Canadian people too I heard that this appropriation of the word > "American" from USA citizens is a bit upsetting. Also here in Italy I > note that among educated people there is a great attention on saying > "statunitensi" against "americani", and I think it is fair. I haven't come across any succinct English name for citizens of the USA, so might I propose an abbreviation formed from the first two letters of each of the three words: "an Unstam", "several Unstams", "an Unstamian citizen"?
Alternatively, and forming a much better word, one might use the last two from each word: "an Edescan", "several Edescans", "an Edescan citizen". Yes, much better!
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Tony Cooper - 04 Jan 2004 22:31 GMT >I haven't come across any succinct English name for citizens of the >USA, so might I propose an abbreviation formed from the first two >letters of each of the three words: "an Unstam", "several Unstams", "an >Unstamian citizen"? Sounds good. Can we refer to you as a Unkigrbranian?
David - 04 Jan 2004 23:28 GMT > >I haven't come across any succinct English name for citizens of the > >USA, so might I propose an abbreviation formed from the first two > >letters of each of the three words: "an Unstam", "several Unstams", > >"an Unstamian citizen"?
> Sounds good. Can we refer to you as a Unkigrbranian? You can refer to me however you choose but I'm actually English. We English have our own language and don't have to suffer the indignity of using that of another country; so also have we a name and don't have to suffer the even greater indignity of having to use that which is generally applicable to all the other countries within not just one but two entire continents, most of which actually do have their own name.
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Tony Cooper - 05 Jan 2004 03:48 GMT >> >I haven't come across any succinct English name for citizens of the >> >USA, so might I propose an abbreviation formed from the first two [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >generally applicable to all the other countries within not just one but >two entire continents, most of which actually do have their own name. So you are not a resident of the United Kingdom? A small land mass that is known - in parts - by various other names? A place where the residents have to suffer the indignity of being in a united kingdom but with no residents of a country that is the kingdom of where ever it is they live? A country in which some residents recognize a monarch that is the Queen of a different place?
Complicated, innit.
Andrew Davidson - 05 Jan 2004 12:39 GMT > So you are not a resident of the United Kingdom? A small land mass > that is known - in parts - by various other names? A place where the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > monarch that is the Queen of a different place? > Complicated, innit. Not that complicated - The United Kingdom is just that - A number of countries, each independent and sovereign, but united under one King (or Queen). These countries originally were England, Scotland, and Ireland. Since 1922 they are England, Scotland and Northern Ireland (Southern Ireland or Eire having ceded from the Union). Wales is not (unfortunately) an independent party to this Union, but forms part of the English posession since it was conquered by Edward I in the 13th century. However these days, Wales rights as an independent state are also recognised (particularly since the formation of the regional assemblies), thus the list of countries within the United Kingdom is usually now given as England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales.
Your sentence about "Queen of a different place" is confusing, and does not describe any situation I recocognise within the UK.
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Tony Cooper - 05 Jan 2004 13:28 GMT >> So you are not a resident of the United Kingdom? A small land mass >> that is known - in parts - by various other names? A place where the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Your sentence about "Queen of a different place" is confusing, and does not >describe any situation I recocognise within the UK. I thank you for the explanation although I was well aware of all of it. My post was just a little spoofing. A resident of any of the UK countries other than England recognizes a monarch that is Queen of a different place. She is called the Queen of England and not the Queen of Scotland, or Wales, or..... Before you explain, that too is a spoof and I am aware of her full title.
The post is about as serious as the idea of a Peruvian thinking he is an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence. And that was the subject that generated my reply.
Andrew Davidson - 05 Jan 2004 14:13 GMT > The post is about as serious as the idea of a Peruvian thinking he is > an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence. > And that was the subject that generated my reply. From my point-of-view (Devon, England) - A Peruvian is just as much an American as a Texan is. The Peruvian is a South American, the Texan is a North American. In the same way, Poles and Italians are both Europeans. The fact that the USA contains the word "America" in its name, and has thus developed a habit of shortening that name to "America", does not negate the right of other dwellers on that continent to also use the name.
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Donna Richoux - 05 Jan 2004 14:28 GMT > > The post is about as serious as the idea of a Peruvian thinking he is > > an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > thus developed a habit of shortening that name to "America", does not > negate the right of other dwellers on that continent to also use the name. Sure. They can use that meaning when they speak Spanish, and they can even use that meaning when they speak English. Where the fur starts to fly is if anyone tells citizens of the United States of America to stop calling themselves Americans. We've been through that a few times on a.u.e, and as a result wrote this summary, collectively, for our FAQ:
-------- American --------
Should US citizens call themselves "Americans"? The fact is: they do. And they call their country "America," among other terms. To modern speakers of the English language, both in the US and elsewhere, these are the most frequent meanings of the words "America" and "American."
However, to many people outside the USA, the name "America" (with various spellings: Amerique, Amerika, etc.) can quite normally mean the entire "New World." That tradition goes back to the days of the first European explorers. We have heard complaints from time to time, especially from native Spanish speakers, that the citizens of the United States of America have commandeered the name, as if they were the only ones in the Americas. These attempts to convince US residents to start calling themselves something else, such as USonians or USans, in deference to the other inhabitants of the landmass, usually lead only to anger and bafflement, on both sides.
However, when explaining why they call themselves "American," those in the US are hereby cautioned not to overstate the case and imply that any other use of the word is wrong, impossible, or obsolete. "American" has indeed been used for a very long time, as an English word, to mean "an inhabitant of, or pertaining to, the Americas." This meaning is supported by all major dictionaries, although many of us encounter it only rarely, in fixed combinations such as the American crocodile, the Organization of American States, and the Pan-American Games.
[END QUOTE FROM FAQ]
 Signature Best -- Donna Richoux
R F - 05 Jan 2004 15:46 GMT > From my point-of-view (Devon, England) - A Peruvian is just as much an American > as a Texan is. I'm not sure Texans consider themselves part of the USA, but okay...
> The Peruvian is a South American, the Texan is a North American. > In the same way, Poles and Italians are both Europeans. The fact that the USA > contains the word "America" in its name, and has thus developed a habit of > shortening that name to "America", does not negate the right of other dwellers > on that continent to also use the name. This is a common Error: the idea that "United States of America" came first, and calling the people in what *became* the (initial part of the) USA "Americans" came second. Not so: they were called "Americans" before 1776.
TFOTMI, "America" has more than one meaning. The USA-type of "American" shouldn't object to the desire of the Peruvian (say) to call himself an "American" when speaking English. But, by the same Metrocard, no Peruvian or European should object to a USA-type of American using "American" to mean "of the US". Non-Americans (that is, non-US-type Americans) should endeavo(u)r to understand the US usage of "American", and not to angrily and bitterly condemn it.
I've argued (in AUE) that "America" has a slightly different meaning from "United States". "The US" is the political entity, the polity, the "state", the current official politico-legal structure. "America" is the *nation*, not the *state*: the people, the land, a romantic-poetic view of the people who happen to call themselves "Americans" in the US sense and the "country" (not the "state") they call home. It might be a little bit like how "the UK" is a name that will not survive the abolition of the monarchy, but "Britain" and "England" etc. :-) will remain.
In my view, "an American" in the US sense is broader than just the body of American (more properly, US) citizens. An immigrant to the US who is not yet a citizen but who has come to identify closely with the people and culture of the US (more properly of "America") is, in my book, an "American".
Andrew Davidson - 05 Jan 2004 16:05 GMT > > From my point-of-view (Devon, England) - A Peruvian is just as much an American > > as a Texan is. > > I'm not sure Texans consider themselves part of the USA, but okay... Yes, I thought that might be contentious.
> > The Peruvian is a South American, the Texan is a North American. > > In the same way, Poles and Italians are both Europeans. The fact that the USA [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > USA "Americans" came second. Not so: they were called "Americans" before > 1776. True, but they were called "Americans" because they dwelt on the continent of America, along with all the other inhabitants. Only later did they start to use that term as if it might be exclusive to citizens of the USA.
> TFOTMI, "America" has more than one meaning. The USA-type of "American" > shouldn't object to the desire of the Peruvian (say) to call himself an [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > of the people who happen to call themselves "Americans" in the US sense > and the "country" (not the "state") they call home. This all seems very reasonable to me. I think I agree with it. However, when I say "America", I mean the continent. If I need to differentiate between parts of that continent, I will use terms such as "USA", "Bolivia", "North America", "South America", "Canada", etc.
> It might be a little > bit like how "the UK" is a name that will not survive the abolition of the > monarchy, but "Britain" and "England" etc. :-) will remain. If I am asked "where are you from?", I reply "England". If I am asked for my nationality, I say "British". If I am completing a Web form or other documentation, the choice is normally "United Kingdom". Despite all of the foregoing, I am very clear on one point: the country where I live is called England.
I recall a lady I worked with in Glasgow (Scotland) who was learning German from a cassette course. The lesson asked "Sind sie Deutsch", and she was required to answer "Nein, ich bin Englander". She, quite rightly, responded "Nein, ich bin Schottlanderin".
 Signature Andrew Davidson
Aaron J. Dinkin - 05 Jan 2004 20:44 GMT > However, when I say "America", I mean the continent. This here might be part of the source of confusion. To people in the U.S. (I don't know about Canada), there is no continent called "America". There is a continent called "North America", and a continent called "South America", and together they are called "the Americas"; but they are not referred to as "America" either individually or together.
-Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom
Andrew Davidson - 05 Jan 2004 20:57 GMT > > However, when I say "America", I mean the continent. > This here might be part of the source of confusion. To people in the U.S. > (I don't know about Canada), there is no continent called "America". That's fine for them.
> There is a continent called "North America", and a continent called > "South America", and together they are called "the Americas"; By some.
> but they > are not referred to as "America" either individually or together. Yes they are. I refer to them as "America". Perhaps in my previous post I should have written "when I say America, I mean the continents".
 Signature Andrew Davidson
Raymond S. Wise - 06 Jan 2004 09:40 GMT > > On Mon, 5 Jan 2004 16:05:40 -0000, Andrew Davidson <andrew@cyber-home.net> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > By some. I can't remember ever meeting a native speaker of American English who uses the term "America" for the combination of North America and South America. Aaron was speaking of *people in the US,* not about others. So your comment "By some." appears to be incorrect, since I expect there are very few native speakers of American English who use the term "America" in the way that you use it. We say "the Americas," as Aaron indicated.
> > but they > > are not referred to as "America" either individually or together. > > Yes they are. I refer to them as "America". Perhaps in my previous post I should > have written "when I say America, I mean the continents". But Aaron was talking about the usage of people in the US! You appear to have entirely missed the point of his post.
 Signature Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 17:54 GMT > "when I say America, I mean the continents". > But Aaron was talking about the usage of people in the US! You appear to > have entirely missed the point of his post. You're right. I missed that Aaron had used the qualification "people in the U.S" whereas Tony Cooper claims to speak for all the citizens of the world. I think Aaron's distinction is most important, since clearly there is a difference in usage between the US and others. I cannot question the usage of US citizens, and I bow to your greater knowledge - but I also know that this is absolutely not "universally recognized and accepted without question".
 Signature Andrew Davidson
Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2004 18:08 GMT >> "when I say America, I mean the continents". >> But Aaron was talking about the usage of people in the US! You appear to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >I bow to your greater knowledge - but I also know that this is absolutely not >"universally recognized and accepted without question". You will note the distinction between "universally recognized and accepted without question" and "universally preferred". If a person says "I am an American" it would be universally recognized as a statement that the person is from the United States. It would be accepted without question as a reference to a citizen of the United States. If any of your countrymen were to say that "I am going to America on holiday", you'd be doing no more than playing silly buggers if you asked him which of the South American countries he'd be visiting.
There are some - as you - that would quibble and grouch about the propriety of the statement, but they would not be confused about the meaning of the statement. In the most far distant land, a statement that "I am an American" would be instantly understood and probably elicit a reply like "You are? I have a cousin in Chicago. Do you know him?"
I do not pretend to "speak for all citizens of the world" and Aaron does not speak for all citizens of the US. To state the obvious is not to speak for all.
Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 18:18 GMT >If a person > says "I am an American" it would be universally recognized as a > statement that the person is from the United States. Not so.
> It would be > accepted without question as a reference to a citizen of the United > States. Not so.
> If any of your countrymen were to say that "I am going to > America on holiday", you'd be doing no more than playing silly buggers > if you asked him which of the South American countries he'd be > visiting. Not so.
> There are some - as you - that would quibble and grouch about the > propriety of the statement, Many, from my experience.
> but they would not be confused about the > meaning of the statement. Yes they would, or else they would understand something other than you have implied.
> In the most far distant land, a statement > that "I am an American" would be instantly understood and probably > elicit a reply like "You are? I have a cousin in Chicago. Do you > know him?" Not so.
> I do not pretend to "speak for all citizens of the world" Yes you do - see below.
> To state the obvious is > not to speak for all. To state that it is "obvious" when my random sample of 6 (UK) people all questioned it, seems imperious.
 Signature Andrew Davidson
Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2004 22:30 GMT >Not so.
>Not so.
>Not so.
>Not so.
>Yes you do - see below. M: Oh look, this isn't an argument. A: Yes it is. M: No it isn't. It's just contradiction. A: No it isn't. M: It is! A: It is not. M: Look, you just contradicted me. A: I did not. M: Oh you did!! A: No, no, no. M: You did just then. A: Nonsense! M: Oh, this is futile! A: No it isn't. M: I came here for a good argument. A: No you didn't; no, you came here for an argument. M: An argument isn't just contradiction. A: It can be. M: No it can't. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition. A: No it isn't. M: Yes it is! It's not just contradiction. A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position. M: Yes, but that's not just saying 'No it isn't.' A: Yes it is! M: No it isn't!
A: Yes it is! M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes. (short pause) A: No it isn't. M: It is. A: Not at all. M: Now look. A: (Rings bell) Good Morning. M: What? A: That's it. Good morning. M: I was just getting interested. A: Sorry, the five minutes is up.
>To state that it is "obvious" when my random sample of 6 (UK) people all >questioned it, seems imperious. Rubbish. Your random sample is worthless when you don't explain how the question was posed. If you said something along the lines of "Is 'America' synonymous with 'the United States'?", or "Help me settle an argument with a Yank." then you've alerted your sample that it may be a trick question.
To be fair, you must pose the question in a neutral manner. Something like "If you were to holiday in America, what sights would you want to see?" If the answer is the "the Grand Canyon" or "Disney World", then the obvious assumption is that "America" is unambiguously synonymous with "the United States". If the answer is "Uxmal", or "the mouth of the Amazon", then your argument is shored up.
The question then becomes if you can be unbiased in your presentation of the question. Your report of the UK news usage of "America" casts doubt on this.
Richard Maurer - 05 Jan 2004 17:13 GMT << [R F] This is a common Error: the idea that "United States of America" came first, and calling the people in what *became* the (initial part of the) USA "Americans" came second. Not so: they were called "Americans" before 1776. [end quote] >>
In the "before" time, they were American relative to the British Empire. Letters to the king used the phrase "your American subjects". It all made sense. When the USA became a separate country, people kept using "American", but there was no longer anything for the term to be relative to. 200 years later, we still need a good nickname.
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Enrico C - 08 Jan 2004 01:50 GMT <snip>
> It all made sense. When the USA became a separate country, > people kept using "American", but there was no longer anything for > the term to be relative to. 200 years later, we still need a good nickname. Usonians ? ;)
http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usonian
Fup2 alt.usage.english
 Signature Enrico C ~ No native speaker
Tony Cooper - 06 Jan 2004 02:51 GMT >> The post is about as serious as the idea of a Peruvian thinking he is >> an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >shortening that name to "America", does not negate the right of other dwellers >on that continent to also use the name. This comes up more frequently than sauerkraut. Every once in a while someone discovers that the United States is in the continent of North America, that there are other countries in the continent of North America, and that the continent to the south of North America also has the word "America" in it. They then start to crow that Peruvians, Guatemalans, and Canadians have the same right to be called "Americans" as do the residents of the United States. The next step, if you follow the familiar path, is to suggest that we be called "USAians" or something equally ridiculous.
In actuality, it's a technically -if even marginally - correct position even if it's completely without practical merit. There is nothing ambiguous about the terms "American" or "America". The meaning is universally recognized and accepted without question. While Ecuadorians and Panamanians may have some murky "right" to be called "Americans", it simply isn't done and would cause confusion.
I suppose I shouldn't say "isn't done" because there are probably seven or eight people in the world that actually do it. They are far less in number, though, than the members of the Flat Earth Society, the believers that the moon landing was filmed in Hollywood, and people who have actually sighted the Loch Ness monster.
If you follow the usual process of the people before you that have insisted on the rights of Manitobians, Sonorians, and Mato Grossoians to call themselves "Americans", you will next insist that you once had a conversation with a man whose brother's employer's wife once employed a gardener that was born in Tucumán and was greatly grieved that he was not considered an American.
In another post on the same subject, you say "However, when I say "America", I mean the continent. If I need to differentiate between parts of that continent, I will use terms such as "USA", "Bolivia", "North America....". If you do this in practice, and not just in your mind, you will be met with nothing but confusion. First, because it is generally accepted that there are two continents with "America" in the name, and second because no one will have the foggiest idea of the area you are referring to. If you present yourself at the Aserca Airlines desk and try to book a ticket to America, you will probably be referred an airline that serves NYC. They will not assume your destination to be Caracas.
Now, I will grant you that proclaiming that a Nova Scotian has full rights and privileges to be called "American" is a good pub argument if cricket or football discussions don't interest you. It's especially good if you include some table-thumping indignation about Yanks usurping the language now that there are no more red indians to kill. It will help, though, if you don't mind people winking at each other and sotto voce comments about "Old Davidson's on again about the America/America thing".
I certainly have no intent of discouraging you in calling Baffin Islanders and Chileans "Americans". It gives you a certain eccentric charm that may cover an otherwise undistinguished personality. And, I certainly have no intent with arguing with your premise. It's an interesting little idiosyncrasy that makes a quite good party trick. Your only problem will be guiding the conversation around to the subject so that you can say, in a Potteresquely Plonking Manner "The Yanks are not the only ones deserving to be called Americans, you know".
Andrew Davidson - 06 Jan 2004 04:04 GMT > This comes up more frequently than sauerkraut. Every once in a while > someone discovers that the United States is in the continent of North > America, that there are other countries in the continent of North > America, and that the continent to the south of North America also has > the word "America" in it. Talk sense, for goodness' sake.
>They then start to crow that Peruvians, > Guatemalans, and Canadians have the same right to be called > "Americans" as do the residents of the United States. Because they do.
> The next step, > if you follow the familiar path, is to suggest that we be called > "USAians" or something equally ridiculous. No. That's doesn't follow. You can be Americans too (alongside the Peruvians).
> In actuality, it's a technically -if even marginally - correct > position even if it's completely without practical merit. Or "it's correct" for short.
> There is > nothing ambiguous about the terms "American" or "America". The > meaning is universally recognized and accepted without question. Clearly not - or we wouldn't even be discussing it here.
> While Ecuadorians and Panamanians may have some murky "right" to be > called "Americans", it simply isn't done and would cause confusion. Not "murky" - "absolute. It is done and it doesn't cause confusion.
> I suppose I shouldn't say "isn't done" because there are probably > seven or eight people in the world that actually do it. Interesting statistics - Your source please?
> They are far > less in number, though, than the members of the Flat Earth Society, > the believers that the moon landing was filmed in Hollywood, and > people who have actually sighted the Loch Ness monster. Talk sense, for goodness' sake.
> If you follow the usual process of the people before you that have > insisted on the rights of Manitobians, Sonorians, and Mato Grossoians > to call themselves "Americans", you will next insist that you once had > a conversation with a man whose brother's employer's wife once > employed a gardener that was born in Tucumán and was greatly grieved > that he was not considered an American. Err... !!!! Talk sense, for goodness' sake.
> In another post on the same subject, you say "However, when I > say "America", I mean the continent. If I need to differentiate [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with "America" in the name, and second because no one will have the > foggiest idea of the area you are referring to. I've got through just fine so far. I'm clear that there is "South America" and "North America" - together they form the landmass known as "The Americas" or "America" and near the top of that land mass is a group of inhabitants who think they are alone on this planet (or at least behave that way).
> If you present > yourself at the Aserca Airlines desk and try to book a ticket to > America, you will probably be referred an airline that serves NYC. > They will not assume your destination to be Caracas. Not so - I've done something very similar - I actually asked for my destination - who requests an airline ticket to a continent?
> Now, I will grant you that proclaiming that a Nova Scotian has full > rights and privileges to be called "American" is a good pub argument > if cricket or football discussions don't interest you. They don't.
> It's > especially good if you include some table-thumping indignation about > Yanks usurping the language now that there are no more red indians to > kill. I thought that's where we were headed.
>It will help, though, if you don't mind people winking at each > other and sotto voce comments about "Old Davidson's on again about the > America/America thing". Never happened yet - the usual response is along the lines of "those f***ing Yanks think they own the world".
> I certainly have no intent of discouraging you in calling Baffin > Islanders and Chileans "Americans". Good - because they are.
 Signature Andrew Davidson
Tony Cooper - 06 Jan 2004 04:40 GMT >> This comes up more frequently than sauerkraut. Every once in a while >> someone discovers that the United States is in the continent of North [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Talk sense, for goodness' sake. I greatly admire the way you pack so much meaning into "Talk sense...". In one short phrase you have bundled up "I don't quite follow this because it's far too complex for a mind as rigid as mine", and "It's not the way I see things. Ergo, it must be wrong.", and "Being an exceedingly stuffy sort, I disapprove of taking such a serious matter so lightly, and this is my way of saying 'harumph!'".
>> The next step, >> if you follow the familiar path, is to suggest that we be called >> "USAians" or something equally ridiculous. > >No. That's doesn't follow. You can be Americans too (alongside the Peruvians). Simply magnanimous of you.
>> There is >> nothing ambiguous about the terms "American" or "America". The >> meaning is universally recognized and accepted without question. > >Clearly not - or we wouldn't even be discussing it here. Ah, but it's clearly so. If I identified myself as "American", would you have to look at the headers to determine that I'm not from Tierra del Fuego? Would there be any doubt whatsoever in your mind of my nation of origin? Any ambiguity?
>> I suppose I shouldn't say "isn't done" because there are probably >> seven or eight people in the world that actually do it. > >Interesting statistics - Your source please? My goodness! Still room in that overly stuffed shirt for yet another bromide?
>Never happened yet - the usual response is along the lines of "those f***ing >Yanks think they own the world". Yes. Now we're at it.
Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 17:29 GMT [blah blah blah] then
>If I identified myself as "American", would > you have to look at the headers to determine that I'm not from Tierra > del Fuego? Yes. Even then I'm not sure....
>Would there be any doubt whatsoever in your mind of my > nation of origin? Yes
> Any ambiguity? Yes.
I listened to several news reports yesterday on the two main UK TV channels and on two different radio stations. They all overwhelmingly used "US" or "United States" to refer to the USA. There were five references to "America" - three of these were discussing South American countries - one referred to events across the entire American landmass - only one referred to the US.
I am happy to accept that your view re the meaning of "America" is the prevailing one in the USA - however it is quite certainly not the prevailing view in the UK - and I doubt that it prevails elsewhere.
I suspect our difference of opinion here has more to do with the fact that my shirt was manufactured in England than whether it is stuffed or not.
 Signature Andrew Davidson
Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2004 18:15 GMT >I listened to several news reports yesterday on the two main UK TV channels and >on two different radio stations. They all overwhelmingly used "US" or "United >States" to refer to the USA. There were five references to "America" - three of >these were discussing South American countries - one referred to events across >the entire American landmass - only one referred to the US. I question your accuracy in reporting this. I listen to the BBC World News on radio, and watch BBC America. (Which is the name of the BBC outlet in the United States. It is not called "BBC North America between the 50th parallel and the 23rd parallel). They refer to the "Americas" when they are referring to the non-America part of the Americas. "America" and "Americas" are quite different words.
Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 19:33 GMT > I listen to the BBC World > News on radio, and watch BBC America. (Which is the name of the BBC > outlet in the United States. It is not called "BBC North America > between the 50th parallel and the 23rd parallel). They refer to the > "Americas" when they are referring to the non-America part of the > Americas. Because they are talking to Yanks, and they know they have to use simple language.
 Signature Andrew Davidson
Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2004 22:42 GMT >> I listen to the BBC World >> News on radio, and watch BBC America. (Which is the name of the BBC [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Because they are talking to Yanks, and they know they have to use simple >language. The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that: news of the world broadcast to the world. Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is not altered for US consumption.
mUs1Ka - 07 Jan 2004 22:54 GMT >>> I listen to the BBC World >>> News on radio, and watch BBC America. (Which is the name of the BBC [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > of the world broadcast to the world. Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is > not altered for US consumption. She even changed the spelling of her name for US consumption? Greater love hath no ...
m.
Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2004 23:22 GMT >>>> I listen to the BBC World >>>> News on radio, and watch BBC America. (Which is the name of the BBC [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >She even changed the spelling of her name for US consumption? >Greater love hath no ... Yes, It's widely known that American males don't know how to add the possessive to names that end in "s". I took a poll here in my house and there wasn't a single male that could do it correctly.
Donna Richoux - 07 Jan 2004 23:31 GMT > >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that: news > >> of the world broadcast to the world. Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > possessive to names that end in "s". I took a poll here in my house > and there wasn't a single male that could do it correctly. There's no S in her name. Guess again.
Tony Cooper - 08 Jan 2004 00:49 GMT >> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that: news >> >> of the world broadcast to the world. Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >There's no S in her name. Guess again. Damn. There's a whole buncha other people that think her name is JK Rawling or Rawlings. Googles right up there.
Did I mention that I haven't read any of her books? Or seen the movies?
Charles Riggs - 08 Jan 2004 09:05 GMT >>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that: news >>> >> of the world broadcast to the world. Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Damn. There's a whole buncha other people that think her name is JK >Rawling or Rawlings. Googles right up there. You have trouble, it seems, with apostrophes in general. "Google's", so you'll know what I'm on about. That could not have been a typo on your part.
>Did I mention that I haven't read any of her books? Or seen the >movies? Mel Conway of Westport, a redneck's redneck, is another man proud of his ignorance. He often brags he has never read a book. You two would get along well.
 Signature Charles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Tony Cooper - 08 Jan 2004 13:44 GMT >>>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that: news >>>> >> of the world broadcast to the world. Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >so you'll know what I'm on about. That could not have been a typo on >your part. "Googles" was not a typo. I was verbing "Google". Both "Rawling" and "Rawlings" come up frequently if you Google them.
Charles Riggs - 09 Jan 2004 07:54 GMT >>>>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that: news >>>>> >> of the world broadcast to the world. Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >"Googles" was not a typo. I was verbing "Google". Nope. You didn't use it as a verb. Your sentence, spelled out, could only have been "Google is right up there". As usual when you get stuck, you are weaseling.
>Both "Rawling" and >"Rawlings" come up frequently if you Google them. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it?
 Signature Charles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 08:04 GMT >>>>>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that: news >>>>>> >> of the world broadcast to the world. Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >only have been "Google is right up there". As usual when you get >stuck, you are weaseling. Try spelling it out "(It) googles right up there". Your version does not make sense. I do make errors, but I usually make sense.
>>Both "Rawling" and >>"Rawlings" come up frequently if you Google them. > >Hindsight is a wonderful thing, isn't it? Said the poacher in the King's forest.
Charles Riggs - 10 Jan 2004 05:25 GMT >>>>>>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that: news >>>>>>> >> of the world broadcast to the world. Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >Try spelling it out "(It) googles right up there". Your version does >not make sense. I do make errors, but I usually make sense. You never cease to amaze me by your thick-headedness. You didn't write your phrase with an "It". It'd be an oddball sentence if you had, but I wouldn't have commented. "Google is right up there" is informal English for "This search engine gives results in line with what a number of other people think about her name". Anyone even vaguely familiar with English in its many varieties will see that. But you are so insecure you rarely admit it when you've made an error, not even one as tiny as this one.
 Signature Charles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 06:57 GMT >>>>>>>> >> The BBC World News, to the best of my knowledge, is just that: news >>>>>>>> >> of the world broadcast to the world. Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >you are so insecure you rarely admit it when you've made an error, not >even one as tiny as this one. Whatever, Charles. Think about what putting a word in parenthesis means in writing an explanation, and then review your statement "You didn't write...". It's an implied "it". Like saying "Goes like a banshee". The "it" or "the car" is implied.
Oh, there it is again. "Like saying..." has the implied "It is like saying....". You'll figure it out eventually.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 Jan 2004 00:23 GMT > >>>"Googles" was not a typo. I was verbing "Google". > >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > You never cease to amaze me by your thick-headedness. You didn't > write your phrase with an "It". For what it's worth, Charles, when I first saw it, I read it as Tony says he intended it. Made sense at the time. Still does. Reads fine to me. Often drop the subject myself.
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Charles Riggs - 12 Jan 2004 05:15 GMT >For what it's worth, Charles, when I first saw it, I read it as Tony >says he intended it. Made sense at the time. Still does. Reads fine >to me. Often drop the subject myself. The above is as clear as a mountain stream. People seldom have any problem with the way you express yourself. Why should they? You know what you're doing, C**per doesn't.
 Signature Charles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 09 Jan 2004 00:45 GMT > Damn. There's a whole buncha other people that think her name is JK > Rawling or Rawlings. Googles right up there. You seem to have been kept long enough on tenterhooks; the poor woman's surname is Rowling (with an 'o', not an 'a').
NEVER rely upon Google for correct spellings of ANYTHING: the problem nowadays is that with an increasingly illiterate pool of web authors (that have never learnt to spell, nor had their errors corrected), thousands of articles exist with incorrect spellings of just about anything.
So if you Google for a word, and misspell it, you're probably still able to find it.
Example: a few years ago a colleague had to choose a password for a system, and tell a number of authorized personnel that password so that they could all access a shared account. He told me "the password is 'doppelganger'"; but when I used that I could not get into the account. He then demonstrated that he COULD log in; eventually, by comparing keystrokes, he turned out to have defined the password as 'doppleganger'.
When I asked him how he came to make this mistake, he admitted that he'd been unsure of the spelling, but had put in to Google what he thought of as the correct form and Google had confirmed his version with thousands of hits. Indeed, Googling for the correct spelling at that time produced only about 20% more hits (which suggests that there are an _awful_ lot of people that are unable to spell the word, and yet are unaware of that limitation, and put the misspelt word out for all the world to see on a web page).
[I've just repeated the exercise: the misspelling gets 19,700 hits, whilst the correct one has 67,900, so much better than on the previous occasion. It may be that because Google now says "Did you mean doppelganger" when the incorrect spelling is inserted that more authors have managed to find the correct spelling and use it: that feature wasn't present on Google in the timeframe mentioned above.]
However the more important lesson is that neither he nor you should rely upon Google for anything like this: he should have looked in a dictionary, and you should have looked in a library catalogue (or even on Amazon) since people whose lives revolve around handling books usually ARE capable of spelling authors' names correctly.
Still, I don't suppose someone who is so ignorant of the English language that they write (in a later posting) "may of" for "may have" is likely to take any notice of this advice :-(
IN SHORT, the Web is NOT the only place to find information: treat with scepticism anything you do find there, preferably cross-checking with more traditional information sources.
 Signature Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 07:43 GMT >> Damn. There's a whole buncha other people that think her name is JK >> Rawling or Rawlings. Googles right up there. > >You seem to have been kept long enough on tenterhooks; the poor woman's >surname is Rowling (with an 'o', not an 'a'). Hey! I really appreciate that. I probably would not of been able to figure that out without your guidance. But, "poor"? She's off the dole now, you know. I read somewhere she's earned something over 750 million pounds from her books. How much is that in real money?
>NEVER rely upon Google for correct spellings of ANYTHING: the problem >nowadays is that with an increasingly illiterate pool of web authors >(that have never learnt to spell, nor had their errors corrected), >thousands of articles exist with incorrect spellings of just about >anything. Again, my thanks and appreciation. It helps me a great deal when you capitalize for emphasis. I don't take "never" or "anything" too seriously unless they are in full caps.
>When I asked him how he came to make this mistake, he admitted that he'd >been unsure of the spelling, but had put in to Google what he thought of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >limitation, and put the misspelt word out for all the world to see on a >web page). I really wish you wouldn't of written "_awful_". You set your style of emphasis earlier in the post with "NEVER" and "ANYTHING". Then, you switched styles and went with the "_ _" thingies. Here's poor me all distracted by trying to figure out if full caps or "_ _" thingies indicate the more emphatic emphasis.
>Still, I don't suppose someone who is so ignorant of the English language >that they write (in a later posting) "may of" for "may have" is likely to >take any notice of this advice :-( I gave you a couple more "of"s to play with above. Sicced 'em on you, as it were.
>IN SHORT, the Web is NOT the only place to find information: treat with >scepticism anything you do find there, preferably cross-checking with >more traditional information sources. Damn! There you go again. The style changes are making me dizzy. And, I can't figure out why you emphasize "IN". I really think that should be "In SHORT...." or "In _short_.....".
ObAUE: That "ignorant of the English language" bothers me. (Oh, not because what's-his-face here called me "ignorant'. That just rolls off.) The "language" part bothers me. It seems to me that I made an error in usage and not an error in language. An error in language would - it seems to me - be the use of a completely inappropriate word thinking that the word is the appropriate word in the context. The use of "of" instead of "have" - and my all-time favorite: "that" instead of "who" - would be usage errors. No?
David - 09 Jan 2004 09:32 GMT > >> Damn. There's a whole buncha other people that think her name is > >> JK Rawling or Rawlings. Googles right up there. > > > >You seem to have been kept long enough on tenterhooks; the poor > >woman's surname is Rowling (with an 'o', not an 'a').
> Hey! I really appreciate that. I probably would not of been able to > figure that out without your guidance. But, "poor"? She's off the > dole now, you know. I read somewhere she's earned something over 750 > million pounds from her books. How much is that in real money? [Snip]
Are you a United States of American? In other parts of the English speaking world, the word "poor" does have meanings other than financial.
Oh, and please try to use "have" instead of "of" where applicable.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/free/ Free Software: Hermetic Font - Crosses, Dice, Greek, Hebrew, Music, Stars, Zodiac
David - 09 Jan 2004 09:35 GMT [Snip]
> ObAUE: That "ignorant of the English language" bothers me. (Oh, not > because what's-his-face here called me "ignorant'. That just rolls [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > use of "of" instead of "have" - and my all-time favorite: "that" > instead of "who" - would be usage errors. No? You claim not to be ignorant of the English language but ignorant of the usage of the English language?
How droll.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/penny/2d-0.htm Twopenny Blue: Genuine Forgery, Unfranked (Fine)
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 14:32 GMT >[Snip] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >How droll. David, perhaps you could you could link up with someone as a "reading buddy" and - between the two of you - work out what is actually said in the posts you reply to. In the above paragraph, I don't refute being ignorant of either the language or of usage. Read closely, or with assistance, and you will see that I have just questioned which particular form of ignorance I was guilty of in my post.
I'll combine replies here and respond to the comment in your other post wherein you said:
>Are you a United States of American? In other parts of the English >speaking world, the word "poor" does have meanings other than financial. We have progressed over here. We are capable of responding at more than one level. I didn't have a long, tedious anecdote to relate so my contribution was to demonstrate that the word "poor" does have other meanings.
>Oh, and please try to use "have" instead of "of" where applicable. Another place a reading buddy will be helpful for you is the spotting of drolleries even if presented with some subtlety. You might have noted that later in the post I wrote:
>I gave you a couple more "of"s to play with above. Sicced 'em on you, as it were. David - 09 Jan 2004 16:18 GMT [Snip]
> >Oh, and please try to use "have" instead of "of" where applicable.
> Another place a reading buddy will be helpful for you is the spotting > of drolleries even if presented with some subtlety. You might have > noted that later in the post I wrote:
> >I gave you a couple more "of"s to play with above. Sicced 'em on > >you, as it were. Yes, I found the post quite nauseant, as well.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/zodiac/2tau-0.htm Taurus (April 21st - May 21st) Vrishabha - the Bull Hathor
Gwilym Calon - 09 Jan 2004 16:54 GMT > I read somewhere she's earned something over 750 > million pounds from her books. How much is that in real money? That's 750 million pounds
:-) ---------------- GC
David - 09 Jan 2004 20:01 GMT > > I read somewhere she's earned something over 750 > > million pounds from her books. How much is that in real money?
> That's 750 million pounds
> :-) I think Mr Cooper wanted to know how much that would be in Euro.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/joachim/10-0.htm The leaden sky turned to graphite, drawing an early evening to the fell.
Skitt - 09 Jan 2004 21:16 GMT >>> I read somewhere she's earned something over 750 >>> million pounds from her books. How much is that in real money? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I think Mr Cooper wanted to know how much that would be in Euro. I think Mr. Cooper was pulling someone's chain.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 03:13 GMT >>>> I read somewhere she's earned something over 750 >>>> million pounds from her books. How much is that in real money? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >I think Mr. Cooper was pulling someone's chain. I distinctly heard a "clank". Sometimes it's just too easy.
Gwilym Calon - 10 Jan 2004 22:07 GMT > I distinctly heard a "clank". A yanker clanker.
Duw Duw
--------------- GC
mUs1Ka - 10 Jan 2004 23:08 GMT >> I distinctly heard a "clank". > > A yanker clanker. > > Duw Duw Is that dyoo dyoo, or doo doo? m.
David - 11 Jan 2004 01:06 GMT > >> I distinctly heard a "clank". > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > Is that dyoo dyoo, or doo doo? No, it was distinctly "Duw Duw".
Thank God for the Welsh!
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0y09-0.htm Hickleton Skulls "To Day for Me, Tomorrow for Thee"
mUs1Ka - 11 Jan 2004 01:12 GMT >>>> I distinctly heard a "clank". >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Thank God for the Welsh! It can not be *distinctly* Duw, Duw. It is pronounced differently in North and South Wales (roughly).
m.
David - 11 Jan 2004 01:44 GMT > >>>> I distinctly heard a "clank". > >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > > Thank God for the Welsh!
> It can not be *distinctly* Duw, Duw. It is pronounced differently in > North and South Wales (roughly). Is it really? Well, that is no surprise considering that my daughter has lived these past eight years or so in Abertawe since hightailing it from the West Riding for her university course. When she visits at Xmas, we notice a distinct Southern Welsh coloration to her pronunciation which, if truth be told, probably is as distinct from the North Welsh accent of Penmaenmawr with which I, as a virgin lad in the '60s, was indoctrinated, not only by the local vicar and his wife, who hailed from that worthy Irish sea holiday resort and slate mine, but by a bevy of summertime Penmaenmawr lasses, who, upon shingle and druid circle alike, impressed their poetic charm (roughly).
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/10-0.htm What's it all about, Alpha?
Gwilym Calon - 09 Jan 2004 21:31 GMT > I think Mr Cooper wanted to know how much that would be in Euro. No. He said "real money".
---------------- GC
David - 09 Jan 2004 22:49 GMT > > I think Mr Cooper wanted to know how much that would be in Euro.
> No. He said "real money". But the Spanish use the Euro now.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/zodiac/1ari-0.htm Aries (March 21st - April 20th) Mesha - the Ram Anhur (Onouris)
Mike Stevens - 10 Jan 2004 00:55 GMT > ObAUE: That "ignorant of the English language" bothers me. (Oh, not > because what's-his-face here called me "ignorant'. That just rolls [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > use of "of" instead of "have" - and my all-time favorite: "that" > instead of "who" - would be usage errors. No? No. "Of" is entirely the wrong word in that context - wrong part of speech. And stylistically it makes you sound cloth-eared. It's a common mistake and occurs very frequently among Londoners, who, in my experience, are appalling at listening to what anyone says - even themselves. (And I'm one, by ancestry and long-time residence, although not by upbringing). I think the "of" usage comes from, for example, "could have" being transferred to "could've" (which is acceptable not only in speech but also in informal writing) which lazy listeners can't tell from "could of". If they actually *listened* they'd hear a different stress-pattern between "could've" and could of".
My wife used to teach English to children for whom it wasn't their home language. When asked if she found it particularly difficult, her standard reply was "it's a damn sight easier than trying to teach Londoners to speak English."
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Old teachers never die, they simply lose their class.
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Don't you just hate rhetorical questions?
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 07:29 GMT >> ObAUE: That "ignorant of the English language" bothers me. (Oh, not >> because what's-his-face here called me "ignorant'. That just rolls [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >No. "Of" is entirely the wrong word in that context - wrong part of >speech. You misunderstand. I don't disagree at all that "of" was used incorrectly. What I am questioning is if it's an error in usage or an error in language.
I would consider an error in language to be an error where a word with the wrong meaning is used. For example, "It was an amenably." is a sentence with an error in language. A word with the wrong meaning was used. An example of an error in usage would be "It was a anomaly".
An error in language changes meaning. Or, at least, requires the reader to substitute to grasp meaning. An error in usage does not change meaning. It may cause distraction to the reader, but it does not require substitution to be understood.
The OP said that I was "ignorant of the English language". That may be, but I don't see this as an appropriate description of the error. I think it should have been "ignorant of English usage". That is a far more apt description of my writing.
Enrico C - 10 Jan 2004 08:03 GMT <snip>
>>> use of "of" instead of "have" <snip>
> The OP said that I was "ignorant of the English language". That may > be, but I don't see this as an appropriate description of the error. > I think it should have been "ignorant of English usage". That is a > far more apt description of my writing. Or, you are neither, and it was just an absent-minded slip in spelling? :))
 Signature Enrico C
| 40tude Dialog - www.40tude.com/dialog | freeware newsreader with multilingual GUI in English, Italian, | French, German, Dutch, Croatian, Greek and Polish Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 09:01 GMT ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Or, you are neither, and it was just an absent-minded slip in >spelling? :)) Nah. I actually talk that way.
David - 10 Jan 2004 09:30 GMT > Nah. I actually talk that way. That's obvious.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/joachim/13-0.htm The lamb's Navy rum hadn't gone down by so much as one eighth of an inch in the last half hour.
CyberCypher - 10 Jan 2004 08:22 GMT Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com> wrote on 10 Jan 2004:
>>> ObAUE: That "ignorant of the English language" bothers me. (Oh, >>> not because what's-his-face here called me "ignorant'. That [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > incorrectly. What I am questioning is if it's an error in usage > or an error in language. All language-related errors are generally "errors in/of language". It's too vague a term to mean anything worth saying or talking about, which is why there are concrete caetgories of errors: usage, grammar, style, diction, etc.
> I would consider an error in language to be an error where a word > with the wrong meaning is used. That is called an error in _word choice_ (sometimes called "diction" ["1. Choice and use of words in speech or writing." AHD4])
> For example, "It was an amenably." is a sentence with an > error in language. A word with the wrong meaning was used. This is a word-choice error, a diction error. It is, of course, a language error (ie, an error in language).
> An example of an error in usage would > be "It was a anomaly". Yes, and that is also a language error.
> An error in language changes meaning. Or, at least, requires the > reader to substitute to grasp meaning. An error in usage does not > change meaning. It may cause distraction to the reader, but it > does not require substitution to be understood. Not necessarily. You are creating and stipulating your own definition of the phrase "an error in language". Usage errors, diction errors, grammatical errors, and other kinds of language errors can change or distort meaning, so your definition falls short of being accurate.
> The OP said that I was "ignorant of the English language". That > may be, but I don't see this as an appropriate description of the > error. I think it should have been "ignorant of English usage". > That is a far more apt description of my writing. If one is ignorant of how the language is properly used --- and I'm not being pedantic here, because the usage error in question is a common and even undisputed one, and the correct usage is one that everyone, not only the literati, is expected to know --- then one can be described as being "ignorant of the language"; I would agree that it is too strong a criticism of what is otherwise normal English usage. But the point of Brian {Hamilton Kelly}'s criticism, I'm fairly certain, is that if you don't know the correct spellings ("would've" and "could've"), then your credibility as someone who comments on English usage is seriously called into question.
This particular usage error is different from the other usage you are criticized for, "people that" versus "people who", because the former is a common usage and is often used even by high-level writers, so criticism for that usage is always an expression of the critic's personal bias. "would of" and "could of" for "would've" and "could've" are just plain dead wrong.
 Signature Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.
Aaron J. Dinkin - 11 Jan 2004 00:37 GMT > I think the "of" usage comes from, for example, "could have" being > transferred to "could've" (which is acceptable not only in speech but > also in informal writing) which lazy listeners can't tell from "could > of". If they actually *listened* they'd hear a different stress-pattern > between "could've" and could of". I disagree. In particular, I think that "of" is very usually minimally stressed, and when it is it's indistinguishable from minimally stressed "have" (i.e., "-'ve"). When there is some stress on "of", it sounds different from "-'ve"; but "could of" and "could've" can easily sound identical.
-Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom
David - 11 Jan 2004 01:46 GMT > > I think the "of" usage comes from, for example, "could have" being > > transferred to "could've" (which is acceptable not only in speech > > but also in informal writing) which lazy listeners can't tell from > > "could of". If they actually *listened* they'd hear a different > > stress-pattern between "could've" and could of".
> I disagree. In particular, I think that "of" is very usually > minimally stressed, and when it is it's indistinguishable from > minimally stressed "have" (i.e., "-'ve"). When there is some stress > on "of", it sounds different from "-'ve"; but "could of" and > "could've" can easily sound identical. With the correct amount of stress, "kiss my" and "donkey" could sound identical.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/joachim/09-0.htm The vet wiped the anal thermometer across the brown sleeve of his old tweed jacket...
mUs1Ka - 07 Jan 2004 23:33 GMT >>>>> I listen to the BBC World >>>>> News on radio, and watch BBC America. (Which is the name of the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > possessive to names that end in "s". I took a poll here in my house > and there wasn't a single male that could do it correctly. ??? Try again.
m.
Charles Riggs - 08 Jan 2004 09:05 GMT >>> I listen to the BBC World >>> News on radio, and watch BBC America. (Which is the name of the BBC [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >of the world broadcast to the world. Unlike JK Rawling's work, it is >not altered for US consumption. What's the BBC World News? To my knowledge, it is not broadcast in the UK. I watch BBC news broadcasts daily and we don't get your version of it in Ireland.
With the sole exception of football games and the PBS broadcasts, the best of which originates in either the UK or Canada, TV in America is sh.t -- too many ads, too little content. I like many things American, but their TV is bottom on my list. Oh, and their bread: yuck.
 Signature Charles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Tony Cooper - 08 Jan 2004 13:50 GMT >>>> I listen to the BBC World >>>> News on radio, and watch BBC America. (Which is the name of the BBC [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >UK. > I watch BBC news broadcasts daily and we don't get your version of >it in Ireland. BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK. You are not in the UK, Charles. They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s. You may of heard of it.
David - 08 Jan 2004 15:09 GMT > BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK. You are not in the UK, > Charles. They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s. You may of > heard of it. It might be acceptable in a.u.e but in u.c.l.e we prefer "you may have heard of it", or even "you might have heard of it".
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/pedant/ Uranus: To avoid embarrassment when speaking to the hard of hearing or to classical scholars, pronounce this "Oo-ran-us" and not "You-rain-us".
Robert Bannister - 09 Jan 2004 00:55 GMT >>BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK. You are not in the UK, >>Charles. They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s. You may of >>heard of it. > > It might be acceptable in a.u.e but in u.c.l.e we prefer "you may have > heard of it", or even "you might have heard of it". I think you should get under the Cone of Silence.
 Signature Rob Bannister
David - 09 Jan 2004 09:27 GMT > >>BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK. You are not in the UK, > >>Charles. They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s. You may [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > I think you should get under the Cone of Silence. Pray tell me what that is?
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/joachim/12-0.htm Finishing the bedtime story, Joachim allowed the paperback to close then placed it on the ornate mahogany bedside table beside the lamb.
Skitt - 09 Jan 2004 21:11 GMT >> David wrote:
>>>> BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK. You are not in the UK, >>>> Charles. They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s. You may [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Pray tell me what that is? Let Google tell you.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/
David - 09 Jan 2004 22:51 GMT > >> David wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > Pray tell me what that is?
> Let Google tell you. I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr Bannister for it was he who suggested it.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ How to make people and influence fiends
Skitt - 09 Jan 2004 23:09 GMT >>>>>> BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK. You are not in the >>>>>> UK, Charles. They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr > Bannister for it was he who suggested it. Just trying to help. The write-up accessible with Google (first hit, no less)has pictures and all. Are you patterning yourself after YJ?
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 03:21 GMT >>>>>>> BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK. You are not in the >>>>>>> UK, Charles. They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Just trying to help. The write-up accessible with Google (first hit, no >less)has pictures and all. Are you patterning yourself after YJ? Perhaps his shoe phone provider is down. Or, he dropped it and smershed it.
David - 10 Jan 2004 09:33 GMT > >>>>>> BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK. You are not in the > >>>>>> UK, Charles. They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr > > Bannister for it was he who suggested it.
> Just trying to help. The write-up accessible with Google (first hit, > no less)has pictures and all. Are you patterning yourself after YJ? Firstly, I don't know who YJ is.
Lastly, whatever Google presents might not be what was intended by Mr Bannister. Instead of having no idea, which might be bad, I might end up with the wrong idea, which would be worse.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/mavic/0m02-0.htm Two Lips Kiss
Skitt - 10 Jan 2004 19:04 GMT >>>>>>>> BBC World News is broadcast *from* the UK. You are not in the >>>>>>>> UK, Charles. They had a flap over that in Ireland in the 20s. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Firstly, I don't know who YJ is. Shall I claim my £5 now, or wait?
> Lastly, whatever Google presents might not be what was intended by Mr > Bannister. Instead of having no idea, which might be bad, I might end > up with the wrong idea, which would be worse. I'm sure now. You *are* YJ, and I claim my £5.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/
David - 10 Jan 2004 20:21 GMT > > Firstly, I don't know who YJ is.
> Shall I claim my £5 now, or wait?
> > Lastly, whatever Google presents might not be what was intended by > > Mr Bannister. Instead of having no idea, which might be bad, I > > might end up with the wrong idea, which would be worse.
> I'm sure now. You *are* YJ, and I claim my £5. No, I'm not YJ if YJ is a person; if YJ is the abbreviation of a description then, as I do not know what it means, I might be YJ.
I am David. On Usenet, I have always been david@dacha (although the dacha has moved providers), even when I posted regularly to aue for a while before that became too side-splitting to continue.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/30-speak2.htm No-one can follow; Of nought do I speak...
Dave Fawthrop - 10 Jan 2004 20:50 GMT | > > Firstly, I don't know who YJ is. | [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | No, I'm not YJ if YJ is a person; if YJ is the abbreviation of a | description then, as I do not know what it means, I might be YJ. http://www.jeepyj.net/ A Jeep? http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/ps/yj/ Youth Justice? http://www.decipher.com/youngjedi/ Young Jedi? http://www.yogajournal.com/views/toc_3.cfm Yoga Journal? http://yj.shueisha.co.jp/ Young Jump? http://www.mm-inet.com/526946.shtml Sun top for a car?
Nah! OK I give up ;-)
BTW I have known David.dacha on the web for years
Dave F
Skitt - 10 Jan 2004 21:16 GMT >>>> Firstly, I don't know who YJ is. >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > BTW I have known David.dacha on the web for years The above posts have been crossposted to alt.usage.english (AUE), and YJ (short for Young Joey) is a nickname for a poster (DE781) there, as anyone reading AUE's posts and posting to it should know.
I will readily concede that, without being familiar with the style an content of YJ's posts, one can't have much of an idea what I'm talking about. Never mind, then.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/
David - 11 Jan 2004 01:12 GMT > >>>> Firstly, I don't know who YJ is. > >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > > BTW I have known David.dacha on the web for years
> The above posts have been crossposted to alt.usage.english (AUE), and > YJ (short for Young Joey) is a nickname for a poster (DE781) there, > as anyone reading AUE's posts and posting to it should know.
> I will readily concede that, without being familiar with the style an > content of YJ's posts, one can't have much of an idea what I'm > talking about. Never mind, then. Aw, c'mon Skitt, you and I crossed swards in those grassy days on aue a year or two ago. It pains me that I am forgot in so short a time.
Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery once again.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0z01-0.htm Gretna Green Why does it always rain in August?
Skitt - 11 Jan 2004 01:24 GMT >> I will readily concede that, without being familiar with the style an >> content of YJ's posts, one can't have much of an idea what I'm >> talking about. Never mind, then. > > Aw, c'mon Skitt, you and I crossed swards in those grassy days on aue > a year or two ago. It pains me that I am forgot in so short a time. Well, as there were no swords involved, who's to remember?
> Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery once > again. Why would you want to do that?
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/
David - 11 Jan 2004 02:29 GMT > > Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery > > once again.
> Why would you want to do that? With emphysema, one might want to do anything!
Strange thing: Just over a year ago, I would have argued down anyone that smoking was part of who I was; just over a year later, it is as alien an activity as attempting to write swahili on usenet.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ Where subtle shades of every hue, homogenize and mellow: Pages cyan, green, and blue; and red, magenta, yellow.
Skitt - 11 Jan 2004 03:21 GMT >>> Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery >>> once again. > >> Why would you want to do that? > > With emphysema, one might want to do anything! I'm sorry to hear that. I hope that it's still not very serious.
> Strange thing: Just over a year ago, I would have argued down anyone > that smoking was part of who I was; just over a year later, it is as > alien an activity as attempting to write swahili on usenet. I was lucky to quit (more thn 13 years ago) before I incurred any serious damage. My wife had just died from a condition caused by heavy smoking and drinking.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/
David - 11 Jan 2004 11:51 GMT > >>> Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery > >>> once again. > > > >> Why would you want to do that? > > > > With emphysema, one might want to do anything!
> I'm sorry to hear that. I hope that it's still not very serious. 50% loss of lung function.
> > Strange thing: Just over a year ago, I would have argued down > > anyone that smoking was part of who I was; just over a year later, > > it is as alien an activity as attempting to write swahili on usenet.
> I was lucky to quit (more thn 13 years ago) before I incurred any > serious damage. My wife had just died from a condition caused by > heavy smoking and drinking. Sorry to hear that.
My mother had her legs removed, due to smoking, before she died (as did her father before her), so maybe getting this -- and stopping -- will save me the bother of going out on the stump.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/zodiac/cpis-0.htm Pisces (February 20th - March 20th) Images, Associations, Qualities, Careers, Health
Dave Fawthrop - 11 Jan 2004 08:01 GMT | > Aw, c'mon Skitt, you and I crossed swards in those grassy days on aue | > a year or two ago. It pains me that I am forgot in so short a time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | | Why would you want to do that? Pro Bono Publico?
Dave F
Dave Fawthrop - 11 Jan 2004 07:59 GMT | In article <btpq2k$a1j7g$1@ID-61580.news.uni-berlin.de>, Skitt
| Aw, c'mon Skitt, you and I crossed swards in those grassy days on aue a | year or two ago. It pains me that I am forgot in so short a time. | | Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery once | again. Need any help David? This one needs taking down a notch or two. Hmmmmm that is impossible.
Dave F
David - 11 Jan 2004 11:48 GMT > | In article <btpq2k$a1j7g$1@ID-61580.news.uni-berlin.de>, Skitt
> | Aw, c'mon Skitt, you and I crossed swards in those grassy days on > | aue a year or two ago. It pains me that I am forgot in so short a > | time. > | > | Perhaps I ought to re-subscribe and make all your lives a misery > | once again.
> Need any help David? > This one needs taking down a notch or two. > Hmmmmm that is impossible. Nah, Skitt's all right, really.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/zodiac/5leo-0.htm Leo (July 23rd - August 23rd) Simha - the Lion Horus
Skitt - 11 Jan 2004 21:35 GMT >>> Aw, c'mon Skitt, you and I crossed swards in those grassy days on >>> aue a year or two ago. It pains me that I am forgot in so short a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Nah, Skitt's all right, really. Why, thank you, kind Sir. I try to deserve that evaluation while also being truthful and calling a spade a spade. It's not easy, as my intentions are often misunderstood by those who are oversensitive.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/
Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 01:38 GMT >I will readily concede that, without being familiar with the style an >content of YJ's posts, one can't have much of an idea what I'm talking >about. Never mind, then. Damn, Skitt. I slipped in an "of" that should have been a "have" and the twisted-knicker alarms went off all over the place. I fear what will happen because of your dropped "d".
Skitt - 11 Jan 2004 01:52 GMT >> I will readily concede that, without being familiar with the style an >> content of YJ's posts, one can't have much of an idea what I'm [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the twisted-knicker alarms went off all over the place. I fear what > will happen because of your dropped "d". Oh, I don't know -- if an occasional letter is all I drop, I'm not too concerned about the possible consequences. If you are interested, that sentence was altogether different when I started to write it, and then, as it usually happens, something goes awry in the hurried editing, compounded by the fact that I hate to read what I have written.
Y'all are lucky that I write anything understandable ever.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/
Robert Lieblich - 11 Jan 2004 01:56 GMT [ ... ]
> Y'all are lucky that I write anything understandable ever. A statement impossible to challenge without creating a paradox.
Well done, Skitt.
 Signature Bob Lieblich This sentence is false
David - 11 Jan 2004 02:31 GMT > >I will readily concede that, without being familiar with the style > >an content of YJ's posts, one can't have much of an idea what I'm > >talking about. Never mind, then.
> Damn, Skitt. I slipped in an "of" that should have been a "have" and > the twisted-knicker alarms went off all over the place. I fear what > will happen because of your dropped "d". Some folk lead charmed lives.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/wfolly/4rm0-0.htm Rockingham Mausoleum: The Western Door
Dave Fawthrop - 11 Jan 2004 07:57 GMT | >>> I'm sure now. You *are* YJ, and I claim my £5. | >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | > | > Nah! OK I give up ;-)
| The above posts have been crossposted to alt.usage.english (AUE), and YJ | (short for Young Joey) is a nickname for a poster (DE781) there, as anyone | reading AUE's posts and posting to it should know. Ah I get it now :-) We are back to the English language usage.
This is the classic *very* *nasty* trick of a "in" group to exclude newcomers, much used by infants, teenagers, cliques et. al. To invent words and on occasions languages, codes etc. which are only understood by the "in" group to exclude others, parents, adults etc.
Well as a Senior Citizen I have met most of these nasty tricks many times and am strong enough to challenge them and win, or as least fight to a draw.
An aue outsider :-)
Mike Lyle - 11 Jan 2004 19:03 GMT > | >>> I'm sure now. You *are* YJ, and I claim my £5. > | >> > | >> No, I'm not YJ if YJ is a person; if YJ is the abbreviation of a > | >> description then, as I do not know what it means, I might be YJ. [...]
> | > Nah! OK I give up ;-) > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > An aue outsider :-) Step right in, Dave! I don't use the abbr "YJ" myself, but I can assure you it isn't meant to exclude anybody, or to be nasty to any (always very welcome) new players: the lad is so tireless a pseudonymous poster that by now we all unthinkingly expect everybody to have heard of him, and his posting name hardly trips off the tongue or the keyboard.
Mike.
Dave Fawthrop - 11 Jan 2004 19:33 GMT | > An aue outsider :-) | | Step right in, Dave! I don't use the abbr "YJ" myself, but I can | assure you it isn't meant to exclude anybody, But it does. :-(
Dave F <on ucle>
Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 22:13 GMT >| > An aue outsider :-) >| >| Step right in, Dave! I don't use the abbr "YJ" myself, but I can >| assure you it isn't meant to exclude anybody, > >But it does. :-( Give us some guidelines here. I - for one - would like you to feel welcome, so I need to know what previous discussion points can be referenced, which posters you are familiar with, which running feuds you follow. and your general preferences about food and sandwiches. Perhaps you could develop a summary FAQ.
You might wish to google emoticon usage in aue. Someone might slip in a veiled reference.
Dave Fawthrop - 12 Jan 2004 09:33 GMT | >| > An aue outsider :-) | >| [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | > | Give us some guidelines here. Remember that a usenet newsgroup is a community which people join and leave at a whim. These may be of any nationality, socioeconomic group, age, profession/job. Try to use language which all will understand.
| I - for one - would like you to feel | welcome, I was making a point Pro Bono Publico
| so I need to know what previous discussion points can be | referenced, which posters you are familiar with, which running feuds | you follow. I avoid running feuds and flame wars wherever I can.
| and your general preferences about food and sandwiches. | Perhaps you could develop a summary FAQ. | | You might wish to google emoticon usage in aue. Someone might slip in | a veiled reference. Dave F
Mike Lyle - 12 Jan 2004 13:53 GMT > > | >| > An aue outsider :-) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > at a whim. These may be of any nationality, socioeconomic group, age, > profession/job. Try to use language which all will understand. [...] You mean we shouldn't use the nickname of maybe the group's most prolific poster in a throwaway frivolous remark? You aren't giving us a fair shake here. Skitt is the most amiable of men, and most unlikely to want to put down a total stranger. If you think he should have checked the archives before assuming that you were a regular, then why shouldn't he expect you to check the archives to find out what "YJ" meant before assuming that it was a trap for the uninitiated?
Join in, or just have a random read, and you'll find nearly all of us are very matey nearly all of the time.
Mike.
{R} - 12 Jan 2004 16:30 GMT In uk.culture.language.english on 12 Jan 2004 05:53:00 -0800,
}You mean we shouldn't use the nickname of maybe the group's most }prolific poster in a throwaway frivolous remark?
1) Dave Fuckthrop is a utter fuckwit
} You aren't giving us }a fair shake here. Skitt is the most amiable of men, and most unlikely }to want to put down a total stranger.
2) This is cross posted to ucle.
{R}
Dave Fawthrop - 12 Jan 2004 16:36 GMT | In uk.culture.language.english on 12 Jan 2004 05:53:00 -0800, | [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | | 2) This is cross posted to ucle. Damn! forgot {R} subscribes to ucle This record is worn out having been played by the aforesaid person several thousand times :-(
Dave F
mUs1Ka - 12 Jan 2004 17:26 GMT >> In uk.culture.language.english on 12 Jan 2004 05:53:00 -0800, >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > This record is worn out having been played by the aforesaid person > several thousand times :-( I still don't know what a fawwit is.
m.
Enrico C - 12 Jan 2004 17:48 GMT >> ...is a utter fuckwit > I still don't know what a fawwit is. Neither did I. Had to look for it on onelook.com , and it's listed on just a couple of slang dictionaries. Not a very common word, is it?
 Signature Enrico C ~ No native speaker
Raymond S. Wise - 13 Jan 2004 00:21 GMT > >> ...is a utter fuckwit > > I still don't know what a fawwit is. > > Neither did I. Had to look for it on onelook.com , and it's listed on > just a couple of slang dictionaries. > Not a very common word, is it? For a native speaker, given the existence of the terms "dimwit," "half-wit" and "nitwit," and the use of "f.ck" as a general term of abuse, the "stupid person" sense of "fuckwit" is easy enough to guess.
 Signature Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
{R} - 13 Jan 2004 13:09 GMT In uk.culture.language.english on Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:21:18 -0600,
}"Enrico C" <enrico.c@spamcop.net> wrote in message }news:1vsrxqm7aqao.dlg@news.lillathedog.net... }> mUs1Ka | alt.usage.english,uk.culture.language.english }> in <news:btula0$bcj7g$1@ID-193735.news.uni-berlin.de> }> }> >> ...is a utter fuckwit }> > I still don't know what a fawwit is. }> }> Neither did I. Had to look for it on onelook.com , and it's listed on }> just a couple of slang dictionaries. }> Not a very common word, is it? } }For a native speaker, given the existence of the terms "dimwit," "half-wit" }and "nitwit," and the use of "f.ck" as a general term of abuse, the "stupid }person" sense of "fuckwit" is easy enough to guess.
There is some thoughts on derivation on http://fuckwits.info
{R}
Dave Fawthrop - 12 Jan 2004 19:33 GMT | >> In uk.culture.language.english on 12 Jan 2004 05:53:00 -0800, | >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] | > | I still don't know what a fawwit is. Fuckwit: One who disagrees with {R} Richard Ashton.
mUs1Ka - 12 Jan 2004 20:48 GMT >>>> In uk.culture.language.english on 12 Jan 2004 05:53:00 -0800, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Fuckwit: One who disagrees with {R} Richard Ashton. I know what a fuckwit is. As he spelt your name Fuckthrop, I assumed there must be a word fawwit. m.
Steve Hayes - 13 Jan 2004 18:26 GMT >> Fuckwit: One who disagrees with {R} Richard Ashton. > >I know what a fuckwit is. As he spelt your name Fuckthrop, I assumed there >must be a word fawwit. >m. I've seen "fucktard".
I assume a leotard with a hole in the crotch.
 Signature Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Ross Howard - 13 Jan 2004 19:02 GMT >>> Fuckwit: One who disagrees with {R} Richard Ashton. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I assume a leotard with a hole in the crotch. Aha! A CGI expert, I see.[1]
[1. Compromised gussetary integrity.]
-- Ross Howard
Charles Riggs - 13 Jan 2004 06:49 GMT >Join in, or just have a random read, and you'll find nearly all of us >are very matey nearly all of the time. It'd be interesting to learn how many unmarried pairs of us have actually mated, matey as we are. Before, after, or during a boink, perhaps?
 Signature Charles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 11 Jan 2004 02:38 GMT > Lastly, whatever Google presents might not be what was intended by Mr > Bannister. Instead of having no idea, which might be bad, I might end > up with the wrong idea, which would be worse. A /very/ good point: people often write "the first hit on Google is exactly the article you need to read"; however, what one person sees as the first hit may well not be the same as what another enquirer, using exactly the same search criteria, will receive.
This is because Google uses distributed processing and, more importantly, distributed databases of article indices; therefore which particular database is interrogated first depends more upon the time of day, routing to the server farm, loading on other servers, etc., etc., than it does upon the exact phraseology of the search terms.
Therefore, having used Google to find what a poster considers to be THE definitive result, s/he should post a URL for that particular document, rather than relying upon others being able to get Google to serve up exactly the same list of results.
 Signature Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
Robert Bannister - 11 Jan 2004 00:22 GMT >>>>David wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr > Bannister for it was he who suggested it. Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on rethinking, I may be getting confused with Get Smart.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 01:39 GMT >>>>>I think you should get under the Cone of Silence. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on rethinking, >I may be getting confused with Get Smart. Stick with "Get Smart" in this case.
David - 11 Jan 2004 02:48 GMT > >>>>>I think you should get under the Cone of Silence. > >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on > >rethinking, I may be getting confused with Get Smart.
> Stick with "Get Smart" in this case. This is getting more intriguing by the hour.
I really is a good thing that the BBC broadcasts some US programmes otherwise I would have absolutely no idea what you are all going on about.
BTW. Rumour has it that "The Office" is to be copied on USA television. A pound (several US Thalers [at the way they're going down in value] to a penny [a real one, that is, not your US pretend "penny"]) that the US remake will not have that air of British understatement which makes "The Office" such a delight but will be the usual vaudeville-turn-to-the-camera-and shout the obvious US comedy show.
Okay, you Yanks, given that (due to monetary concerns) even the the sludge of US TV usually finds its way onto UK TV but only the best of UK TV finds its way onto US TV, what are your favourite UK sitcoms?
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/50-0.htm 2 lb of spuds, 1 lb of mince, some cotton buds, a colour rinse
Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 05:33 GMT >> >Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on >> >rethinking, I may be getting confused with Get Smart. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >sludge of US TV usually finds its way onto UK TV but only the best of >UK TV finds its way onto US TV, what are your favourite UK sitcoms? First, you have to understand that the major networks (ABC, NBC, and CBS) do not carry any of the Britcoms. When available to us, they are usually available only on our PBS (Public Broadcast System).
PBS does not have a nation-wide feed. They have affiliate PBS stations, but each station is independent and each station independently decides which programming to purchase. Consequently, a program available on PBS in one city may not be available in another city. Available to me (in Orlando FL) this week are:
Keeping Up Appearances, Are you Being Served?, and Last of the Summer Wine. To give you an idea of how old these episodes are, John Inman was straight when they were made.
I have cable access to BBC America and receive some of the later programs. BBC America, however, is not available on all cable systems. Rather than list the Britcoms available, look at http://www.bbcamerica.com/genre/comedy_games/comedy_games.jsp and see what they are offering this week. Keeping Up Appearances re-emerges, but BBC A is showing series 5 and PBS is re-running series 2 or 3.
Of the lot on this page, I don't really care for any of them. I've been a fan of Britcoms since "Doctor in the House" in the 70s, and would single out "Rising Damp", "Yes, Minister", and "Fawlty Towers" as the best of the bunch. (I'm sure I've forgotten some that were favorites at the time) I don't count MPATFC as a sitcom, so it's not on the list.
I've never liked Rowan Atkinson, though, and "The Thin Blue Line" is not something I watch. Hyacinth is in the "been there, done that" group. "My Hero" is not mine. The last *good* show shown over here was "Coupling".
"The Office" has funny moments, but I wouldn't rate it up there with the better bundles from Britain. You say "understated", and I think "underdeveloped". I can only recall one really laugh-out-loud episode, and that was the one where Tim built a wall of boxes between his desk and Gareth's. There was another when one of the women was "fired" for stealing something (paperclips?), but it was a joke by David. His complete surprise at not having the "joke" thought funny was almost too realistic to be funny.
I really don't see how you can say that an American version of "The Office" will not live up the UK version and think you've made a particularly clever observation. It won't, but it shouldn't be expected to. The American version will be a major network production aimed for the market that watches shows like ..... well, I can't give you the names because I don't watch them and you wouldn't know them.
Our "Coupling" was an absolute failure even though the script was almost line-for-line the same as the original. The lines, though, were lines that made British prime time viewers laugh, and not lines that make American prime time viewers laugh. I didn't laugh, but I'd seen the UK version and expected the characters to be the UK characters... and they weren't. I "knew" the characters, and ours just weren't the same.
We shouldn't try to adapt British comedy to prime time TV here. "All In The Family" was an anomaly. But, we didn't copy "Till Death Do Us Part". Norman Lear *based* AITF on your show. There's a difference.
Now don't start nattering on again about American "sludge" or I'll start talking about Benny Hill.
David - 11 Jan 2004 12:04 GMT [Snip]
> "The Office" has funny moments, but I wouldn't rate it up there with > the better bundles from Britain. You say "understated", and I think [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > David. His complete surprise at not having the "joke" thought funny > was almost too realistic to be funny. Hmm? I think my point was that I didn't think it was intended as the laugh-out-loud, turn to the camera, put on the face that says "I'm going to say something funny" and deliver your punchline in a loud clear voice then wait until the laughter dies down before doing the next gag, sort of show.
> I really don't see how you can say that an American version of "The > Office" will not live up the UK version and think you've made a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > give you the names because I don't watch them and you wouldn't know > them. Because, as you say, you found it "underdeveloped" with only a single laugh-out-loud moment. If it is remade for the US market, it will almost certainly be totally overdeveloped by a huge team of scriptwriters into the style considered to be suitable for a sitcom and have its full quota of very-funny-laugh-out-loud moments in each episode, just like almost every other US sitcom.
[Snip]
> Now don't start nattering on again about American "sludge" or I'll > start talking about Benny Hill. Please do. I wasn't saying that all US TV was sludge, just that a lot of it is and we tend to get it. And, yes, we've produced lots of TV sludge in our time.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/20-0.htm Lesson 1: Unpacking for a Holiday
Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 21:49 GMT >[Snip] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >clear voice then wait until the laughter dies down before doing the >next gag, sort of show. What you are carrying on about is the technique of the producers of a show to make the viewer laugh or otherwise react with amusement. Their technique may include anything from the classic board-over-the-shoulder-turn shtick (1) to a subtle reference.
My reference is to the reaction. I like to laugh out loud. You, evidently, prefer the knowing smirk, the "I'm clever enough to get it" nod of approval. I'm one of those crass Yanks that doesn't mind visibly and audibly showing amusement.
The American style of signal ling "This is funny!" on television is, indeed, over-done. In case the actors don't signal adequately, the American viewer is provided with a raucous laugh-track. Television sitcoms, though, are entertainment and nothing more. The producers should design the program to provide that entertainment to expected audience. There's no reason for them to treat the audience any differently than the audience wants to be treated. The Americans that look for something more have other avenues of entertainment available to them.
I assume the British producers of television comedy do the same: gear the programming to the viewer's tastes and interests. Your shows seem to run the gamut from in-your-face tastelessness to rather sophisticated and brittle comedy. We see more of your better output, but only because we bring in only a limited number of shows and air them on channels that have a particular type of audience.
I've never cared for Rowan Atkinson (I say that recognizing that he's an icon to many in this newsgroup) because he is - in my view - a signaler of the first order. He's Benny Hill in tights and a ruffled collar. I don't think that the Blackadder (that is one word, not two?) series is bad television; it's just television that doesn't appeal to me.
>> I really don't see how you can say that an American version of "The >> Office" will not live up the UK version and think you've made a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Because, as you say, you found it "underdeveloped" with only a single >laugh-out-loud moment. Whether you laugh-out-loud or give the stiff upper a twitch, the aim of a comedy show is to provide amusement. I just don't think the show is particularly developed to provide amusement that gets any reaction. It's a cameraman that stumbles around and occasionally films a funny bit.
> If it is remade for the US market, it will >almost certainly be totally overdeveloped by a huge team of >scriptwriters into the style considered to be suitable for a sitcom and >have its full quota of very-funny-laugh-out-loud moments in each >episode, just like almost every other US sitcom. Why shouldn't it? It wouldn't be being re-made for a British audience. It would be rather silly to do a British version for an American audience. If a British version is desired, all we have to do is buy the rights to the original and show it on network prime time.
Besides, I think we have an obligation to our British friends to continually supply them with opportunities to feel superior. It seems to give some of them such pleasure.
(1) Inclusion for Rey's benefit. I hope that I lived up to expectations and spelled and used it incorrectly. I try to live up to what is expected of me.
Wanderer - 11 Jan 2004 22:07 GMT <snip>
> Besides, I think we have an obligation to our British friends to > continually supply them with opportunities to feel superior. We do not *feel* superior. When it comes to a sense of humour we *are* superior.
:-) Skitt - 11 Jan 2004 22:22 GMT
> <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > :-) Yup -- you just made me laugh. Good one.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/
David - 11 Jan 2004 23:12 GMT > > > <snip> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > > > :-)
> Yup -- you just made me laugh. Good one. No comment!
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/gay/12-0.htm Harry the Panda was awfully strong
Robert Bannister - 12 Jan 2004 01:05 GMT > Our "Coupling" was an absolute failure even though the script was > almost line-for-line the same as the original. The lines, though, > were lines that made British prime time viewers laugh, and not lines > that make American prime time viewers laugh. May I ask what you consider to be prime time viewing? I would expect something like 7.30-8.30 pm. In Australia, 'Coupling' and 'Office' were both shown at 9.30 pm - a bit on the late side for those of us who rise early and retire early - I think there must be some policy about showing "naughty" programmes fairly late. The "League of Gentlemen" was on well after 10, but I used to watch it because it followed something else I liked. I find once I've pressed the "off" button, I can't be bothered to switch back on again.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Tony Cooper - 12 Jan 2004 01:41 GMT >> Our "Coupling" was an absolute failure even though the script was >> almost line-for-line the same as the original. The lines, though, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >liked. I find once I've pressed the "off" button, I can't be bothered to >switch back on again. There is a definition of "prime time" that the networks use. I'm not sure what that is. What *I* would consider to be "prime time" is 8:00 PM to 11:00 PM Monday through Friday. That is, a programs that start no earlier than 8:00 PM and end no later than 11:00 PM.
Saturday and Sunday are the same, but we rarely see a major program aired on Saturday night. The networks evidently feel too many people are out on that night. Sunday night is similar, but "60 Minutes" does air on Sunday.
My version probably is a bit off. There are programs that I don't watch that may be shown in some version of "prime time", but I don't know when they air. For example, I don't have the slightest idea when "Survivor" or any of the reality TV shows air.
Skitt - 12 Jan 2004 01:50 GMT
>> May I ask what you consider to be prime time viewing? I would expect >> something like 7.30-8.30 pm. In Australia, 'Coupling' and 'Office' [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > know when they air. For example, I don't have the slightest idea when > "Survivor" or any of the reality TV shows air. In prime time, as defined by you above.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 Jan 2004 16:52 GMT > Our "Coupling" was an absolute failure even though the script was > almost line-for-line the same as the original. The lines, though, > were lines that made British prime time viewers laugh, and not lines > that make American prime time viewers laugh. I'm not sure that that's fair. The lines were lines that made American viewers laugh--when they watched the British episodes. It wasn't that the lines didn't fit, it was largely the delivery. (Plus the fact that when they cut it to fit an American half-hour slot they lost too much.)
> I didn't laugh, but I'd seen the UK version and expected the > characters to be the UK characters... and they weren't. I "knew" the > characters, and ours just weren't the same. That, too.
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Tony Cooper - 12 Jan 2004 17:26 GMT >> Our "Coupling" was an absolute failure even though the script was >> almost line-for-line the same as the original. The lines, though, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I'm not sure that that's fair. The lines were lines that made >American viewers laugh--when they watched the British episodes. I don't know if this can really be decided. The American viewers that watched the Britversion laughed, but a claim can be made that American viewers who watch British comedy on PBS or BBC-A are not typical American viewers. After an American viewer watches enough British comedy, the viewer becomes more attuned to the British style of humor.
>It wasn't that the lines didn't fit, it was largely the delivery. (Plus >the fact that when they cut it to fit an American half-hour slot they >lost too much.) If you watched both, the delivery lacked. Without watching the original, you didn't have a sense of what was being attempted. With "Jeff", you had to have a sense of "Jeff" to catch many of the attempts.
>> I didn't laugh, but I'd seen the UK version and expected the >> characters to be the UK characters... and they weren't. I "knew" the >> characters, and ours just weren't the same. > >That, too. Carmen L. Abruzzi - 11 Jan 2004 08:02 GMT Once upon a 1/10/04 6:48 PM, in the land of 4c6ee1d96ddavid@dacha.freeuk.com, the very good"David" from <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote:
> BTW. Rumour has it that "The Office" is to be copied on USA television. > A pound (several US Thalers [at the way they're going down in value] to > a penny [a real one, that is, not your US pretend "penny"]) that the US > remake will not have that air of British understatement which makes > "The Office" such a delight but will be the usual > vaudeville-turn-to-the-camera-and shout the obvious US comedy show. Y'mean like "Are You Being Served?"?
> Okay, you Yanks, given that (due to monetary concerns) even the the > sludge of US TV usually finds its way onto UK TV but only the best of > UK TV finds its way onto US TV, what are your favourite UK sitcoms? So, it is among the best of UK TV, eh? Sad. "UK sitcoms" would seem to be an oxymoron, then.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 Jan 2004 16:48 GMT > Okay, you Yanks, given that (due to monetary concerns) even the the > sludge of US TV usually finds its way onto UK TV but only the best > of UK TV finds its way onto US TV, There are reasons for that. The American networks typically won't touch British series, largely because of the difference in number of episodes per season (22 in the US vs. six to nine in the UK). This is a big reason why when they like a show, they'll make a series based on it, which sometimes works (_All in the Family_/_Till Death Us Do Part_, _Sanford and Son_/_Steptoe and Son_, _Three's Company_/_Robin's Nest_) and sometimes doesn't (_Coupling_, _Payne_/_Fawlty Towers_), often spectacularly. The whole model is different, and US networks typically expect the first two or three episodes to be needed in order to build-up word-of-mouth and critical interest, leading to an audience for the rest of the season. If "the rest of the season" is three episodes, it's not worth it.
Where British shows were imported, it was typically on PBS, which is funded (government funding aside) by voluntary viewer contributions rather than by advertising revenue. So they're not interested in selling eyeballs, but rather finding things that will make a smallish number of people say "This is worth paying for". Also, while the main networks bought shows for broadcast to the entire US, individual PBS stations did their own buying. Finally, PBS viewers (especially those who donate) tend to have a somewhat "snobbish" view of television, and like to feel that by watching PBS, they're watching "good" TV as opposed to what the networks show. This is somewhat counterbalanced by the fact that--due to British shows largely only appearing on PBS, and due to the fact that the British shows shown have been among the best--there's something of a feeling of "If it's British and it's on PBS, it must be high class", which lets some stations buy nearly anything. For a while it seemed that one station around here was showing nothing but _Are You Being Served?_ et sequelae. A nice piece of fluff, but hardly "the best of UK TV", I'd think. It would be interesting to see lists of what you considered "good" and "bad" UK sitcoms to see what's been shown here.
Even with this, it's more worth it for a PBS station to buy a show that has a reasonable number of episodes, and that means one that's typically had at least two or three seasons in the UK. This cuts out much of the garbage, I'm sure.
There are exceptions to the rule, though. Sometime independent (typically UHF) stations would buy British shows, which is how we got exposed to _Benny Hill_, not "high class" enough for PBS, but able to sell eyeballs and with enough episodes (98, apparently) to be worthwhile. I think this is where I also came across _The Kenny Everett Video Show_.
> what are your favourite UK sitcoms? In rough order,
_Coupling_ _Red Dwarf_ _Yes, [Prime] Minister_
Others I've liked include
_Blackadder_ _Waiting for God_ _Absolutely Fabulous_ _Are You Being Served?_ _Bless Me, Father_ _The Goodies_ (if this qualifies as a "sitcom") _Good Neighbors_ (_The Good Life_)
Other shows as well, but they aren't sitcoms.
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Jacqui - 12 Jan 2004 17:02 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum wibbled
> There are reasons for that. The American networks typically won't > touch British series, largely because of the difference in number [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Family_/_Till Death Us Do Part_, _Sanford and Son_/_Steptoe and > Son_, _Three's Company_/_Robin's Nest_) Three's Company was Man About The House (bloke shares flat with two girls). Robin's Nest was the sequel (currently showing on Paramount Comedy Channel here, I watched an episode less than 2 hours ago) in which bloke runs restaurant with girlfriend (marrying her and having children during the run), and this was remade as Three's A Crowd according to http://www.phill.co.uk/comedy/robin/index.html.
Jac
Matti Lamprhey - 12 Jan 2004 17:12 GMT "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote...
> [...] It would be > interesting to see lists of what you considered "good" and "bad" > UK sitcoms to see what's been shown here. This is timely, as I mentioned upthread, and you might like to browse: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sitcom/top10.shtml
Matti
Tony Cooper - 12 Jan 2004 17:41 GMT >"Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote... >> [...] It would be [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Matti The stations I have access to never carried "One Foot In The Grave", "Only Fools And Horses", or "Porridge". I've enjoyed all the rest except "Blackadder" and "Dad's Army". I thought "Dad's Army" was rather mediocre.
Jacqui - 12 Jan 2004 17:24 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum wibbled
>> what are your favourite UK sitcoms? > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Other shows as well, but they aren't sitcoms. Apart from AYBS (yuck) and BM,F (which I don't remember) I'd agree with your list there (although AbFab has gone downhill lately). I have the first three on DVD (all the episodes currently released, anyway) and we rewatch them regularly; similarly we have all the Blackadders (VHS) although we probably know them too well to rewatch often.
I have worked at the nursing home featured in Waiting for God, incidentally. It's on the bus route between Witney and Oxford, and is very grand inside, nothing like "Bayview" in the interior shots.
Jac
Tony Cooper - 12 Jan 2004 17:32 GMT >In rough order, > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Other shows as well, but they aren't sitcoms. You left off "Yes, Minister" (the first of the series) and "Manor Born". Did you not catch them, or was the omission deliberate?
mUs1Ka - 12 Jan 2004 17:38 GMT >> In rough order, >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > You left off "Yes, Minister" (the first of the series) and "Manor > Born". Did you not catch them, or was the omission deliberate? I think that Evan implied that he liked both with: _Yes, [Prime] Minister_
m.
Matti Lamprhey - 12 Jan 2004 17:47 GMT "Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com> wrote...
> >In rough order, > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > You left off "Yes, Minister" (the first of the series) and "Manor > Born". Did you not catch them, or was the omission deliberate? It's interesting how these shows date, though. I enjoyed _Manor Born_ on its original run, but it's just embarrassing now. Contrast this with the earlier _Good Life_, which hasn't dated a bit.
_Yes, Minister_ remains excellent, but I wince at those regular set pieces of overdone flummery.
I'd choose _Porridge_, _Fawlty_, _Dad's Army_ (which will never date!), _Blackadder III_, _Minister_, _Steptoe_, _Hancock_, _Sykes_. Good second-rankers include _Rising Damp_ (one of the very few non-BBC sitcoms which worked well), _Good Life_, _Fools/Horses_.
Matti
David - 12 Jan 2004 20:46 GMT [Snip]
> > what are your favourite UK sitcoms?
> In rough order,
> _Coupling_ > _Red Dwarf_ > _Yes, [Prime] Minister_ I think Red Dwarf has to be one my all time favourites, as well. Not only was it indescribably funny (in parts) but most of the earlier series were also based on very good science fiction ideas.
> Others I've liked include
> _Blackadder_ > _Waiting for God_ [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > _The Goodies_ (if this qualifies as a "sitcom") > _Good Neighbors_ (_The Good Life_) The first series of Waiting for God was quite good but it aged quickly.
Maybe I ought to stop corresponding with Americans in my usual aggressive manner seeing as the US Air Force have started bombing Yorkshire.
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David - 11 Jan 2004 01:47 GMT > > I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr > > Bannister for it was he who suggested it. > > > Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on > rethinking, I may be getting confused with Get Smart. I'll allow you "confused" (no, don't beef about it!)
Now, please tell me what you meant.
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Charles Riggs - 11 Jan 2004 05:43 GMT >> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr >> Bannister for it was he who suggested it. >> >Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on rethinking, >I may be getting confused with Get Smart. Next we'll have to tell David how to reconnoitre from inside a mailbox, or how Maxwell's shoe phone worked. I wouldn't have thought a person alive hadn't seen Agent 86, the Chief, and the lovely 99, or some other agent, attempt discussion of highly classified information under the Cone of Silence.
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david56 - 11 Jan 2004 11:05 GMT CHANGE@aircom.net spake thus:
> >> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr > >> Bannister for it was he who suggested it. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > some other agent, attempt discussion of highly classified information > under the Cone of Silence. My children have never seem Get Smart - I don't think it's been broadcast in the UK for 25 years or more.
 Signature David =====
Matti Lamprhey - 11 Jan 2004 11:34 GMT "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote...
> My children have never seem Get Smart - I don't think it's been > broadcast in the UK for 25 years or more. No -- I remember it fondly. Were they all monochrome? If so, that may be a preventive factor. However, the later movie spin-off was shown on British TV a year or so ago.
Matti
Gwilym Calon - 11 Jan 2004 14:36 GMT > "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote... > > My children have never seem Get Smart - I don't think it's been > > broadcast in the UK for 25 years or more. > No -- I remember it fondly. Were they all monochrome? No - but UK TV was mostly mono when they were broadcast - so most British viewers only saw them in b&w. I think they may have been repeated in colour on a satellite channel, but I only have fond memories of them from my (long-gone) childhood.
---------------- GC
R F - 11 Jan 2004 20:13 GMT > "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote... > > > > My children have never seem Get Smart - I don't think it's been > > broadcast in the UK for 25 years or more. > > No -- I remember it fondly. Were they all monochrome? No. *Some* of them, at least, were in color.
> If so, that may be a preventive factor. Why so?
John Hall - 11 Jan 2004 20:41 GMT >> "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote... >> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >No. *Some* of them, at least, were in color. Some were no doubt made in colour, but they may well have been broadcast in the UK before colour TV was introduced here (which occurred in something like 1967 IIRC).
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Matti Lamprhey - 11 Jan 2004 21:19 GMT "R F" <rfontana@alumni.wesleyan.edu> wrote...
> > "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote... > > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Why so? I suspect, on the basis of evidence which is noticeable by its abscess, that a colour series is more likely to be shown on TV than a mono one, everything else being equal.
BTW, is there a pukka Latin phrase for "everything else being equal"?
Matti
Skitt - 11 Jan 2004 21:53 GMT > "R F" wrote... >>> "david56" wrote...
>>>> My children have never seem Get Smart - I don't think it's been >>>> broadcast in the UK for 25 years or more. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > abscess, that a colour series is more likely to be shown on TV than a > mono one, everything else being equal. I obsess -- were you, perhaps, the victim of a spelling checker?
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Matti Lamprhey - 11 Jan 2004 22:21 GMT "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote...
> > I suspect, on the basis of evidence which is noticeable by its > > abscess, that a colour series is more likely to be shown on TV than > > a mono one, everything else being equal. > > I obsess -- were you, perhaps, the victim of a spelling checker? Serpently not; it behoves one to be master of one's spelling checker if one is to write malaproperly at all times.
I've granted myself a degree of mattistic licence.
Matti
Donna Richoux - 11 Jan 2004 22:15 GMT > BTW, is there a pukka Latin phrase for "everything else being equal"? From somebody's web page
ceteris paribus = everything else being equal
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Matti Lamprhey - 11 Jan 2004 22:29 GMT "Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote...
> > BTW, is there a pukka Latin phrase for "everything else being > > equal"? > > From somebody's web page > > ceteris paribus = everything else being equal Thanks, Donna -- I'm sure I've used that in the past as well. Quel idiot.
Matti
Reinhold (Rey) Aman - 12 Jan 2004 01:59 GMT > > > BTW, is there a pukka Latin phrase for > > > "everything else being equal"?
> > From somebody's web page > > > > ceteris paribus = everything else being equal
> Thanks, Donna -- I'm sure I've used that in the past as well. > Quel idiot. There's another, better-known Latin phrase for that English one, but I can't think of it this moment. Dr. Love?
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Charles Riggs - 12 Jan 2004 05:15 GMT >"R F" <rfontana@alumni.wesleyan.edu> wrote... >> > "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >that a colour series is more likely to be shown on TV than a mono one, >everything else being equal. You're in the dark, must I say? _Get Smart_ was recorded in colour and broadcast in colour in those countries advanced enough to be able to carry it off. God Bless Technology, America, and, finally, George W Bush, Our Saviour. Lucky thing for us, too, He began planning the invasion of Iraq a few days -- now we know -- after He took office, or He might not have been ready for 11 September and all that followed. Without His knowledge of foreign affairs and countries outside of Texas, He might not have had that foresight.
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David - 11 Jan 2004 12:07 GMT > >> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr > >> Bannister for it was he who suggested it. > >> > >Obviously you never watched the Man from Uncle. However, on > >rethinking, I may be getting confused with Get Smart.
> Next we'll have to tell David how to reconnoitre from inside a > mailbox, or how Maxwell's shoe phone worked. I wouldn't have thought a > person alive hadn't seen Agent 86, the Chief, and the lovely 99, or > some other agent, attempt discussion of highly classified information > under the Cone of Silence. Possibly I had but it's so long, long ago and really not worth the remembering, let alone attempting to use the allusions.
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Charles Riggs - 12 Jan 2004 05:15 GMT >> >> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr >> >> Bannister for it was he who suggested it. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Possibly I had but it's so long, long ago and really not worth the >remembering, let alone attempting to use the allusions. Sad, really. It was highly amusing, especially to anyone who'd ever worked with, or for, the US government. Or to anyone, I'd think, who was familiar with how ridiculous military behavior and government officialese can be. Or to anyone with a sense of humour, though unfamiliar with such things. Did I leave anyone out, David?
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David - 12 Jan 2004 08:13 GMT > >> >> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr > >> >> Bannister for it was he who suggested it. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Possibly I had but it's so long, long ago and really not worth the > >remembering, let alone attempting to use the allusions.
> Sad, really. It was highly amusing, especially to anyone who'd ever > worked with, or for, the US government. Or to anyone, I'd think, who > was familiar with how ridiculous military behavior and government > officialese can be. Or to anyone with a sense of humour, though > unfamiliar with such things. Did I leave anyone out, David? I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth so I suppose one or two might not be included in your list. Just how many do or have at any time worked with, or for, the US government?
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Donna Richoux - 12 Jan 2004 20:57 GMT > I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth My word, a bona fide sighting of "billion" being used to mean "trillion." And here I've been told that's extinct.
You guys in u.c.l.e keeping some sort of breeding colony going?
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David - 13 Jan 2004 08:13 GMT > > I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth
> My word, a bona fide sighting of "billion" being used to mean > "trillion." And here I've been told that's extinct.
> You guys in u.c.l.e keeping some sort of breeding colony going? And I thought I was insulting!
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Donna Richoux - 13 Jan 2004 09:27 GMT > > > I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > And I thought I was insulting! All right, thank you for acknowledging that. I apologize. I was building up a grudge based on some of your other recent posts, but that does't make it right. (I'm tempted to say "to be cheeky," but you have no idea how ingrained it is in me not to use British expressions.)
Still, there's truth in what I said up there -- I'm curious as to whether you folks in u.c.l.e make a point of keeping that "billion" going among yourselves. It's a rare bird. We've discussed it extensively in the past here, and I never have seen it actually used, only referred to. UK posters have said that they honestly can't be sure what "billion" means any more when they see it (you kindly gave an example whose value could be verified).
 Signature Trying again -- Donna Richoux
John Hall - 13 Jan 2004 11:08 GMT >Still, there's truth in what I said up there -- I'm curious as to >whether you folks in u.c.l.e make a point of keeping that "billion" >going among yourselves. Well, _I_ don't for one. I can't remember when the word was last discussed in ucle, but I don't think it was recently.
> It's a rare bird. We've discussed it extensively >in the past here, and I never have seen it actually used, only referred >to. UK posters have said that they honestly can't be sure what "billion" >means any more when they see it (you kindly gave an example whose value >could be verified). The American usage has been predominant in the UK for at least the last thirty years. The traditional British "billion" is now never used in the mainstream media. My Concise Oxford Dictionary gives "one thousand million" as the primary meaning for the word. Those who insist on the traditional Britishmeaning are now probably only one or two per cent of the population.
 Signature John Hall "He crams with cans of poisoned meat The subjects of the King, And when they die by thousands G.K.Chesterton: Why, he laughs like anything." from "Song Against Grocers"
Robert Bannister - 13 Jan 2004 23:52 GMT >>Still, there's truth in what I said up there -- I'm curious as to >>whether you folks in u.c.l.e make a point of keeping that "billion" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > traditional Britishmeaning are now probably only one or two per cent of > the population. I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I make a point of never using the word myself. If people stuck to numerical notation - not perhaps 2 000 000 000 (000), but 2^9 or 2^12 - we'd all be more enlightened.
 Signature Rob Bannister
David - 14 Jan 2004 08:39 GMT > > The American usage has been predominant in the UK for at least the > > last thirty years. The traditional British "billion" is now never > > used in the mainstream media. My Concise Oxford Dictionary gives > > "one thousand million" as the primary meaning for the word. Those > > who insist on the traditional Britishmeaning are now probably only > > one or two per cent of the population.
> I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age > thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I make > a point of never using the word myself. If people stuck to numerical > notation - not perhaps 2 000 000 000 (000), but 2^9 or 2^12 - we'd > all be more enlightened. On the news this morning, I heard that the cost of putting Yanks on Mars (Mission motto: "Better Red Than Dead"?) would be something like "a thousand billion dollars". Now, I might be wrong here but surely if the billion in question were 1000 times more than the million, then 1000 times that would be the trillion; using the terminology "thousand billion" suggests that the billion is the million million kind -- or at least it creates some confusion.
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Peter Duncanson - 14 Jan 2004 12:09 GMT >> > The American usage has been predominant in the UK for at least the >> > last thirty years. The traditional British "billion" is now never [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >billion" suggests that the billion is the million million kind -- or at >least it creates some confusion. Surely there would be no confusion in the US - where 'billion' *always* means 'thousand million'.
Because of it's comparative unfamiliarity might not 'a trillion' give the impression of a much large number than 'a thousand billion'?
Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US government circles?
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
David - 14 Jan 2004 15:59 GMT > >> > The American usage has been predominant in the UK for at least > >> > the last thirty years. The traditional British "billion" is now [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >terminology "thousand billion" suggests that the billion is the > >million million kind -- or at least it creates some confusion.
> Surely there would be no confusion in the US - where 'billion' > *always* means 'thousand million'. And the illogicality not considered so? I see what you mean.
> Because of it's comparative unfamiliarity might not 'a trillion' give > the impression of a much large number than 'a thousand billion'? True, I've never had a trillion in my pocket.
> Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US > government circles? I thought it was the buck.
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Robert Bannister - 15 Jan 2004 00:10 GMT >>Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US >>government circles? > > I thought it was the buck. The buck stopped with Truman. Now it's the billion.
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David - 15 Jan 2004 08:39 GMT > >>Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US > >>government circles? > > > > I thought it was the buck.
> The buck stopped with Truman. Now it's the billion. Ah, yes, Truman: "The buck's tops here!"
Bush: "The billions to sphere!"
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Iskandar Baharuddin - 15 Jan 2004 08:50 GMT > > >>Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US > > >>government circles? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Bush: "The billions to sphere!" Tip O'Neill: "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking about real money."
Izzy
rzed - 15 Jan 2004 15:08 GMT > > > >>Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US > > > >>government circles? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Tip O'Neill: "A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're > talking about real money." Whether or not he ever said it, that's usually credited to Ev Dirksen. I've never before seen it associated with Tip O'Neill.
-- rzed
Iskandar Baharuddin - 15 Jan 2004 16:10 GMT > > > > >>Anyway, isn't 'billion' the basic unit of expenditure in US > > > > >>government circles? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Whether or not he ever said it, that's usually credited to Ev Dirksen. I've > never before seen it associated with Tip O'Neill. Contrary to popular opinion I am not infallible. I did remember it that way, but I decided to check it out.
It turns out to be most likely that neither Dirksen nor O'Neill ever utter this piece of wisdom.
At http://www.dirksencenter.org/featuresBillionHere.htm I found the following:
"A billion here, a billion there . . ."
Did Dirksen ever say, " A billion here, a billion there, and pretty soon you're talking real money"? (or anything very close to that?)
Perhaps not. Based on an exhaustive search of the paper and audio records of The Dirksen Congressional Center, staffers there have found no evidence that Dirksen ever uttered the phrase popularly attributed to him.
The article continues on to explain the research process.
Of course, there is always the possiblity that Tip O'Neill used an apocryphal quotation...
Thanks for querying this.
Regards,
Izzy
Steve Hayes - 14 Jan 2004 12:43 GMT >I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age >thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I make a >point of never using the word myself. If people stuck to numerical >notation - not perhaps 2 000 000 000 (000), but 2^9 or 2^12 - we'd all >be more enlightened. I do the same. To me a billion is "a lot" (AmE= alot).
But here the Afrikaans newspapers, which were always inclined to be more politically correct, still use "miljaard" (soomeimes abeviated to "milj" on posters).
 Signature Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 14 Jan 2004 19:24 GMT > I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age > thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I make a > point of never using the word myself. If people stuck to numerical > notation - not perhaps 2 000 000 000 (000), but 2^9 or 2^12 - we'd all > be more enlightened. Errm, ITYM 2x10^9 and 2x10^12 (and not 512 or 4096)
 Signature Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
Robert Bannister - 15 Jan 2004 00:11 GMT >>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age >>thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I make a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Errm, ITYM 2x10^9 and 2x10^12 (and not 512 or 4096) I should be decimated for that.
 Signature Rob Bannister
David - 15 Jan 2004 08:40 GMT > >>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age > >> thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > I should be decimated for that. Twice.
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Dave Fawthrop - 15 Jan 2004 08:58 GMT | > >>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age | > >> thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | | Twice. Decimation was a punishment used against the Roman Legions. 10% of the Legion/unit were executed by lot.
So decimation of an individual, once or twice would be a form of Russian Roulette.
Dave F
David - 15 Jan 2004 15:13 GMT > | > >>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily > | > >>(age thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > | > | Twice.
> Decimation was a punishment used against the Roman Legions. 10% of > the Legion/unit were executed by lot. Worth his salt, then.
> So decimation of an individual, once or twice would be a form of > Russian Roulette. Didn't know the Roman Legionaries played that. What sort of pistol did they use?
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Giles Todd - 15 Jan 2004 23:28 GMT > > So decimation of an individual, once or twice would be a form of > > Russian Roulette. > > Didn't know the Roman Legionaries played that. What sort of pistol did > they use? A birretum.
Giles.
Robert Bannister - 16 Jan 2004 00:05 GMT > 10% of the Legion/unit were executed by lot. He sort of did that to his wife too.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister - 16 Jan 2004 00:04 GMT >>>>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age >>>>thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Twice. And then be thrown in the bin(ary file).
 Signature Rob Bannister
Steve Hayes - 16 Jan 2004 00:22 GMT >> > Errm, ITYM 2x10^9 and 2x10^12 (and not 512 or 4096) >> > >> I should be decimated for that. > >Twice. How about to the power of 9, or 12?
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David - 16 Jan 2004 08:35 GMT > >> > Errm, ITYM 2x10^9 and 2x10^12 (and not 512 or 4096) > >> > > >> I should be decimated for that. > > > >Twice.
> How about to the power of 9, or 12? To whatever your gods are!
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Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 15 Jan 2004 19:08 GMT > >>I don't insist on the older meaning, but I get confused easily (age > >>thing), so when I read 'billion', I just think 'large number'. I make a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > I should be decimated for that. Then you'd be 90% right!
 Signature Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
David - 13 Jan 2004 17:03 GMT > > > > I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > And I thought I was insulting!
> All right, thank you for acknowledging that. I apologize. I was > building up a grudge based on some of your other recent posts, but > that does't make it right. (I'm tempted to say "to be cheeky," but > you have no idea how ingrained it is in me not to use British > expressions.)
> Still, there's truth in what I said up there -- I'm curious as to > whether you folks in u.c.l.e make a point of keeping that "billion" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sure what "billion" means any more when they see it (you kindly gave > an example whose value could be verified). Oh, I only use it when communicating with Americans. In a similar way, I'm awfully fond of "nine-eleven" -- it being both my dog's birthday and my weight.
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Peter Duncanson - 13 Jan 2004 17:13 GMT >> > > > I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth >> > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >I'm awfully fond of "nine-eleven" -- it being both my dog's birthday >and my weight. Here's hoping for your sake that the units of your weight are stones and pounds, not just pounds.
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Charles Riggs - 13 Jan 2004 06:48 GMT >> >> >> I didn't ask Google -- nor, for that matter, you --, I asked Mr >> >> >> Bannister for it was he who suggested it. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >I don't know. There are about 0.006 billion folk on Earth so I suppose >one or two might not be included in your list. You appear to want to make a point about the definition of billion. The one you are using is outdated, here, there, and everywhere where English is the native language.
> Just how many do or have >at any time worked with, or for, the US government? The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids don't pay taxes, vote, or perform other rights of citizenry but that leaves a whole lot of people. I'd think most UKers, too, are very familiar with many of the quirks of the US government, theirs not being so different in many respects, yes, minister.
 Signature Charles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Evan Kirshenbaum - 13 Jan 2004 17:22 GMT > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids > don't pay taxes, Sure they do. "The price tag says $4.99, but I'm being charged $5.40." First noticeable government intrusion for most kids.
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Dave Fawthrop - 13 Jan 2004 17:36 GMT | > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids | > don't pay taxes, | | Sure they do. "The price tag says $4.99, but I'm being charged | $5.40." First noticeable government intrusion for most kids. Anothe daft thing the Merkins do :-( In the UK and IIRC the EU consumer prices are quoted inclusive of VAT, so the tag says 5 GBP and we pay GBP.
Dave F
Tony Mountifield - 13 Jan 2004 18:11 GMT > | > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids > | > don't pay taxes, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Anothe daft thing the Merkins do :-( They do it in Canada too (at least according to my limited experience, which was a visit to BC in 1981).
It's really quite disconcerting if you're not expecting it!
Cheers, Tony
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Tony Cooper - 13 Jan 2004 23:01 GMT >| > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids >| > don't pay taxes, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >In the UK and IIRC the EU consumer prices are quoted inclusive of VAT, >so the tag says 5 GBP and we pay GBP. I assume, then, that VAT is the same everywhere in the UK. Not so with sales tax. An item with a retail price of $5.00 will range anywhere from $5.20 to $5.45 depending on the sales tax rate of the city or county of purchase.
It would be impossible for a chain like Wal-Mart to display tax-inclusive prices in ads.
It's not a daft practice, it's a practice based on necessity.
Gwilym Calon - 14 Jan 2004 00:21 GMT > I assume, then, that VAT is the same everywhere in the UK. Yes. There are several rates of VAT, according to the type of product. Most items are charged at standard rate which is 17.5%; domestic fuel is charged at 5%; Petrol (Gas) has a special tax and then VAT is charged on top (so we are taxed on our tax).
Some items are charged at 0% VAT, and this is treated differently from items which are exempt (but how exactly, I'm unsure).
Most businesses can reclaim the VAT they pay, so only the end consumer actually pays the tax.
VAT is a unified EC tax. That is, having paid VAT on goods in one European Community (EC) country, you do not have to pay again in another EC country. This means that countries which charge lower rates of VAT can attract shoppers from other European countries. I guess this similar to the US where a big ticket item may attract lower tax in one state than another (is that right?).
------------- GC
Tony Cooper - 14 Jan 2004 03:37 GMT >> I assume, then, that VAT is the same everywhere in the UK. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >other European countries. I guess this similar to the US where a big ticket item >may attract lower tax in one state than another (is that right?). Yes. I can save a few pennies by driving less than a mile into the county adjoining the county I live in. My county's tax rate is 7%, and the next over is 6.5%.
Of more significance, I recently purchased a digital camera online and paid no sales tax since it was shipped in from out-of-state. I paid shipping charges but still saved money.
If I recall correctly, I would have been able to recover VAT on purchases I made in the UK on my last trip. I didn't get around to it, so I forget what was required. I don't think I paid VAT on purchases shipped from the shop directly to the US.
Gwilym Calon - 14 Jan 2004 04:35 GMT > I can save a few pennies by driving less than a mile into the > county adjoining the county I live in. My county's tax rate is 7%, > and the next over is 6.5%. In the UK, the big deal is the "booze cruise". Thousands of people regularly take the boat to France to buy wine and spirits. The prices are much cheaper over there because the UK has very high rates of duty on drinks whereas the French have almost none.
> I recently purchased a digital camera online and > paid no sales tax since it was shipped in from out-of-state. I paid > shipping charges but still saved money. In the UK, if we ship goods in from outside the EC, then taxes and duty are payable. Sometimes this can make the deal more expensive than buying at home. However, the taxman may not spot every parcel :-).
> If I recall correctly, I would have been able to recover VAT on > purchases I made in the UK on my last trip. I didn't get around to > it, so I forget what was required. I don't think I paid VAT on > purchases shipped from the shop directly to the US. Yes, anyone from outside the EC can reclaim VAT. You just need to fill in a form and supply copy receipts. Depending on how much you spent, the refund can be significant, since most goods are charged at 17.5%. See http://www.hmce.gov.uk/public/vatrefunds/vatrefunds.htm
--------------- GC
Tony Cooper - 14 Jan 2004 06:08 GMT >> I can save a few pennies by driving less than a mile into the >> county adjoining the county I live in. My county's tax rate is 7%, [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >significant, since most goods are charged at 17.5%. See >http://www.hmce.gov.uk/public/vatrefunds/vatrefunds.htm 17.5%! Damn. Still, including VAT, the Pringle cashmere sweaters were still a good buy. I wish you hadn't mention the figure, though.
david56 - 14 Jan 2004 09:49 GMT gwilymc@prowebnet.co.uk spake thus:
> > I can save a few pennies by driving less than a mile into the > > county adjoining the county I live in. My county's tax rate is 7%, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > payable. Sometimes this can make the deal more expensive than buying at home. > However, the taxman may not spot every parcel :-). There is a lower limit of £18, below which the Customs & Excise will not try to collect the tax (this may be a concession rather than the law). This is handy for buying DVDs and CDs from the USA - American retailers know this and will post items separately.
 Signature David =====
Matti Lamprhey - 14 Jan 2004 10:37 GMT "Gwilym Calon" <gwilymc@prowebnet.co.uk> wrote...
> [...] There are several rates of VAT, according to the type of > product. Most items are charged at standard rate which is 17.5%; [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Some items are charged at 0% VAT, and this is treated differently from > items which are exempt (but how exactly, I'm unsure). There are classes of things which are regarded as conceptually inappropriate for a value-added tax, and hence you can assume that these will be exempt in every VAT territory. Many aspects of financial dealings, such as the provision of credit facilities, are exempt for example.
There are other classes of things which it may be judged inappropriate to tax for political reasons in a given territory, but which are not exempt on theoretical grounds; these would be zero-rated in that territory, but may be taxed in others. An example would be most food, printed matter and children's clothing in the UK.
From the supplier's point of view, if the majority of his supplies are exempt then he will be unable to register for VAT, and hence will pay VAT just like an end-user. However, if he makes zero-rated supplies these will permit him to register for VAT and reclaim it on his purchases.
Matti
Charles Riggs - 14 Jan 2004 04:12 GMT >| > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids >| > don't pay taxes, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >In the UK and IIRC the EU consumer prices are quoted inclusive of VAT, >so the tag says 5 GBP and we pay GBP. Yeah, that's real smart. Have your government bury each of your heads in the sand so you won't know what you're paying for value and what you're paying in tax. Very undaft, that.
 Signature Charles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Matthew Huntbach - 14 Jan 2004 09:56 GMT > Dave Fawthrop <hyphen@hyphenologist.co.uk> wrote:
>>| > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids >>| > don't pay taxes,
>>| Sure they do. "The price tag says $4.99, but I'm being charged >>| $5.40." First noticeable government intrusion for most kids.
>>Anothe daft thing the Merkins do :-( >>In the UK and IIRC the EU consumer prices are quoted inclusive of VAT, >>so the tag says 5 GBP and we pay GBP.
> Yeah, that's real smart. Have your government bury each of your heads > in the sand so you won't know what you're paying for value and what > you're paying in tax. Very undaft, that. I had always assumed that while part of the reason prices in the USA are displayed sans sales tax is because of the variety of different local sales tax rates, another part of the reason is that Americans have a thing about tax. As Charles says, the advantage of the American custom is that it makes it very clear what part of what you are paying is tax. In the UK the tax which is resented more than any other is council tax, because instead of being paid completely invisibly like VAT, or almost invisibly like income tax and national insurance for those on PAYE, you do have to pay it yourself in a visible way that involves you taking the initiative.
For those of us used to the invisible sales tax, however, the USA custom seems strange. It just seems odd that when you have a quoted price for something you're buying, you have to remember that the sales assistant is going to expect you to pay more than that. Also it seems cumbersome that since the displayed price is the rounded one, the price you actually pay is some odd figure which involves an accumulation of small change you either have to pay or is given to you if you pay with notes. In the UK if the price is 4.99, you hand over a fiver and get a penny back - the 99p habit is a silly one, but we all know why they do it and if you keep making purchases like that all you end up with is a few pennies. In the USA, you will find that the displayed 4.99 actually means some odd figures like 5.37 or 5.43 - it's not even rounded to the nearest 10c. So if you make a series of small purchases, you end up with a mountain of coins in your pocket. When you get fed up with this, you start carefully counting up the odd 37c or whatever to try and get rid of some of this mountain. Is this what those of you used to this system do, or is there something else you do with the accumulation of small change you get from your system? In the UK, counting out the exact amount in small change is regarded as an annoying thing which is likely to get you exasperated stares from the sales assistant and anyone standing in the queue behind you.
Matthew Huntbach
david56 - 14 Jan 2004 10:43 GMT mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk spake thus:
> I had always assumed that while part of the reason prices in the USA > are displayed sans sales tax is because of the variety of different local [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > like income tax and national insurance for those on PAYE, you do have to > pay it yourself in a visible way that involves you taking the initiative. It must be remembered that the council tax we pay only funds about 25% of the cost of local government - the rest is granted by central government. I think this is why the tax is resented - if the council wishes to splash out and spend 10% more than last year, the increase in council tax will be 40%.
 Signature David =====
Matti Lamprhey - 14 Jan 2004 11:04 GMT "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote...
> It must be remembered that the council tax we pay only funds about > 25% of the cost of local government - the rest is granted by central > government. I think this is why the tax is resented - if the council > wishes to splash out and spend 10% more than last year, the increase > in council tax will be 40%. But it works in reverse too: if the council saves 10% overall it can reduce its council tax by 40%!
Matti -- dreaming on
Matthew Huntbach - 14 Jan 2004 11:57 GMT In uk.culture.language.english david56 <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk spake thus:
>> In the >> UK the tax which is resented more than any other is council tax, because >> instead of being paid completely invisibly like VAT, or almost invisibly >> like income tax and national insurance for those on PAYE, you do have to >> pay it yourself in a visible way that involves you taking the initiative.
> It must be remembered that the council tax we pay only funds about > 25% of the cost of local government - the rest is granted by central > government. I think this is why the tax is resented - if the council > wishes to splash out and spend 10% more than last year, the increase > in council tax will be 40%. As a councillor, I am acutely aware of this. However, most members of the public are not. Most people are only vaguely aware of all that the council has to spend out on, think it is all paid for by council tax, and still think council tax is too high. It may be that councillors and a few political wonks resent council tax for the gearing effect you mention, but I would guess 95% of the public have no idea that it works this way, and resent their council even more because they see it as increasing the tax by a large amount for a marginal increase in service (or these days for a standstill since for various social reasons the need for and expense of council services is rising at a much faster rate than general inflation).
Matthew Huntbach
Evan Kirshenbaum - 14 Jan 2004 18:57 GMT > I had always assumed that while part of the reason prices in the USA > are displayed sans sales tax is because of the variety of different > local sales tax rates, another part of the reason is that Americans > have a thing about tax. As Charles says, the advantage of the > American custom is that it makes it very clear what part of what you > are paying is tax. Right on both counts. Where taxes passed on to the consumer are invisible, the resentment over high prices tends to be incorrectly aimed at the seller. (This isn't as much of a problem with taxes that are uniform across the country and which have stable rates.) A prime example is the taxes on gasoline. I believe I recall gas stations getting in trouble for posting a breakdown of just how much of the pump price went to taxes.
> In the UK the tax which is resented more than any other is council > tax, because instead of being paid completely invisibly like VAT, or > almost invisibly like income tax and national insurance for those on > PAYE, you do have to pay it yourself in a visible way that involves > you taking the initiative. Income tax and a few others (e.g., social security, unemployment) are "withheld" from your paycheck, so it's more-or-less invisible, although it is itemized on the statement you get with each paycheck (or, more commonly these days, in lieu of a paycheck when the money gets deposited into your bank account). The social security tax has a funny twist in that it's nominally split between you and your employer, and only the amount that "you" pay is visible, so most people don't realize that they're actually paying double what they see.[1] For income tax, it becomes completely visible once a year when you file your tax return, but most people pay attention to the "net" (of withholding) line rather than the gross, which leads to the perverse sight of people being *happy* that they're "getting a refund" rather than being upset that the large amount they've already payed is more than even the government can demand with a straight face.
[1] More or less. The payroll tax (the employer part of the social security "contribution") is part of the overall employee cost, so to a first-order approximation, it's part of what your employer thinks it's worth to pay for your services, and they should be indifferent about whether they pay it to the government or to you. In reality, if it were eliminated, you would expect wages to rise, but not to the full extent of the savings, resulting in higher take-home pay and lower employee cost.
> In the USA, you will find that the displayed 4.99 actually means > some odd figures like 5.37 or 5.43 - it's not even rounded to the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > annoying thing which is likely to get you exasperated stares from > the sales assistant and anyone standing in the queue behind you. It's interesting that you should say that. When I was in the UK for the first time last year, one of the things that I noticed was that the monetary value of the coins in my pocket was typically quite a bit greater than I was used to. This largely, of course, had to do with the fact that pounds are coins rather than bills, but I seemed to accumulate a fair number of the other coins as well.
In the US, you see a distinction between people who are good with money (which doesn't necessarily mean good at math, just those who have had experience dealing with coins) and those who aren't. Those who aren't will simply accumulate change during the day and dump it in a jar when they get home. For the rest of us, I'd say that it's unusual to have more than three quarters and more than about thirty cents in other coins in your pocket. Typically, if you've got change, you'll use some of it (in easily counted quantities) to pay "over but near" the amount. So if the bill involved 37 cents, most people who had change would hand over 40, 45, or 50 cents, unless they had the two pennies, in which case they'd hand over 37, 42, 47, or 52 cents, resulting in a net reduction in the amount of change in your pocket. This doesn't involve any "counting out". Most of us do it automatically. In many places, the pennies are irrelevant, as the register will have a penny bowl, where if you need one or two pennies, you just take them from the bowl, and if you get one or two pennies in change, you drop them in the bowl. In any case, for many of us, whatever change you have at the end of the day goes into a jar, to be counted and rolled and deposited in the bank "eventually".
We do the same sort of thing with bills, angling to not accumulate one dollar bills. So it wouldn't b at all uncommon to see $21.02 proffered for your $5.37 bill. A good cashier won't bat an eye, and will simply grab a nickel ("42"), a dime ("52"), two quarters ("6.02"), a five ("11.02"), and a ten ("21.02"). A poor one will punch it in and be surprised at the reasonably round $15.65 the register displays. (The good one may not have been able to tell you without thinking about it that they handed you $15.65 in change, but you'll get the right amount.)
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Molly Mockford - 14 Jan 2004 19:35 GMT Since we're wildly off-topic already:
>So it wouldn't b at all uncommon to see $21.02 >proffered for your $5.37 bill. A good cashier won't bat an eye, and >will simply grab a nickel ("42"), a dime ("52"), two quarters What happened to the half-dollar? I'm sure I've got a couple somewhere in the house, and I'm going to the States this summer and had been planning to look them out. Are they no longer legal tender? (They are silvery-coloured, about the size of a shilling - which may not help you much - and I think had an eagle on them.)
 Signature Molly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
Pat Durkin - 14 Jan 2004 20:09 GMT > Since we're wildly off-topic already: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > silvery-coloured, about the size of a shilling - which may not help you > much - and I think had an eagle on them.) They are legal tender, and are still in circulation. I don't know why they appear to be rare. Maybe some people are hoarding them.
As to common use, since there appears to have never been any single product marketed in dispensing machines for fifty cents (even postage stamps), and no gambling slot machines devoted to them, there is little demand for them. I expect the US Mint doesn't see much need for re-designing the next issue, either.
Tony Cooper - 14 Jan 2004 22:36 GMT >> Since we're wildly off-topic already: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >They are legal tender, and are still in circulation. I don't know why they >appear to be rare. Maybe some people are hoarding them. The Franklin half dollars (1948 to 1963) are worth about double their face value because of their silver content. Kennedy half dollars dated 1964 are also worth about a buck. Kennedy half dollars dated 1965 to 1970 also have silver content (40%) and will go for above their face value if they are in good condition.
Some people are aware that some half dollars are worth more than 50 cents and will hang on to them.
Molly Mockford - 14 Jan 2004 22:50 GMT >The Franklin half dollars (1948 to 1963) are worth about double their >face value because of their silver content. Kennedy half dollars >dated 1964 are also worth about a buck. Kennedy half dollars dated >1965 to 1970 also have silver content (40%) and will go for above >their face value if they are in good condition. I think mine are probably Kennedys - I picked them up when Nixon was on the throne. I vaguely remember a friend telling me to hang on to them at the time.
 Signature Molly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
Tony Cooper - 14 Jan 2004 23:38 GMT >>The Franklin half dollars (1948 to 1963) are worth about double their >>face value because of their silver content. Kennedy half dollars [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I think mine are probably Kennedys - I picked them up when Nixon was on >the throne. Scarped them up on a visit to the White House, did you? LBJ supposedly did a lot of business when he was on the throne.
(Do I have to include a smiley? I really don't like those things. Does "on the throne" translate cross-pond?)
Molly Mockford - 15 Jan 2004 00:00 GMT >Does "on the throne" translate cross-pond?) It does. I didn't know whether you left-pondians knew it, though, which is why I dropped it in.
 Signature Molly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
Tony Cooper - 15 Jan 2004 03:07 GMT >>>The Franklin half dollars (1948 to 1963) are worth about double their >>>face value because of their silver content. Kennedy half dollars [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >(Do I have to include a smiley? I really don't like those things. >Does "on the throne" translate cross-pond?) The word isn't "scarped", is it? Scarfed, I think. I've made this mistake before. "Scarped" seems right, but I don't think it is. "Scarfed" seem right for gobbling up food, but not grabbing up objects.
Skitt - 15 Jan 2004 03:15 GMT >>>> The Franklin half dollars (1948 to 1963) are worth about double >>>> their face value because of their silver content. Kennedy half [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > "Scarfed" seem right for gobbling up food, but not grabbing up > objects. I thought you had mistyped "scraped", but that doesn't quite fit, does it? "Snatched" is the closest I can think of right now.
 Signature Skitt (in SF Bay Area) ... information is gushing toward your brain like a fire hose aimed at a teacup. -- Dogbert
Matti Lamprhey - 15 Jan 2004 09:25 GMT "Tony Cooper" <tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com> wrote...
> >Scarped them up on a visit to the White House, did you? LBJ > >supposedly did a lot of business when he was on the throne. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "Scarfed" seem right for gobbling up food, but not grabbing up > objects. Leftpondia "scarfed" = Rightpondia "scoffed".
Matti
Matthew Huntbach - 15 Jan 2004 09:17 GMT In uk.culture.language.english Molly Mockford <nospam@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote:
> What happened to the half-dollar? I'm sure I've got a couple somewhere > in the house, and I'm going to the States this summer and had been > planning to look them out. Are they no longer legal tender? (They are > silvery-coloured, about the size of a shilling - which may not help you > much - and I think had an eagle on them.) I have heard it said that half-dollars were normal circulating coins in the USA until the introduction of the Kennedy half-dollar. People thought this was meant to be a commemorative coin, put them away every time they got one, this caused half dollars to become rare in circulation, and people got out of the habit of using them.
The crown coin in the UK also went through a process, around the start of the 20th century, of switching from a normally circulating coin to one intended only for ornamentation.
Matthew Huntbach
Evan Kirshenbaum - 15 Jan 2004 17:39 GMT > What happened to the half-dollar? I'm sure I've got a couple > somewhere in the house, and I'm going to the States this summer and > had been planning to look them out. Are they no longer legal > tender? (They are silvery-coloured, about the size of a shilling - > which may not help you much - and I think had an eagle on them.) They're still legal tender and still minted--but not much. In 2003, five million of them were made, compared to 2.3 billion quarters, two billion dimes, eight hundred million nickels, and nearly seven billion pennies. They suffer from several problems, all of which stem from (and therefore contribute to) their rarity. First, they're too large to fit in most vending machines or parking meters. Second, most places that deal with coins have slots in their trays for pennies, nickels, dimes, and quarters. When they get half dollars, they have to be put somewhere else, and they therefore tend to not get given back in change, but rather get deposited in the bank. Also, because of the slots, stores don't buy rolls of them to use to prime their cash registers. Finally, because they're rare, when people come across them, they tend to save them, which adds to the rarity.
Also, they don't really serve a purpose. There's nothing a half dollar can do that two quarters can't, and the quarters are more flexible, so there's no real savings in the amount of change that people get.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Other computer companies have spent 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |15 years working on fault-tolerant Palo Alto, CA 94304 |computers. Microsoft has spent |its time more fruitfully, working kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |on fault-tolerant *users*. (650)857-7572
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Matti Lamprhey - 14 Jan 2004 22:04 GMT "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote...
> [...] When I was in the UK for > the first time last year, one of the things that I noticed was that > the monetary value of the coins in my pocket was typically quite a bit > greater than I was used to. This largely, of course, had to do with > the fact that pounds are coins rather than bills, but I seemed to > accumulate a fair number of the other coins as well. [...] This could soon get "worse"; I heard a chappie in the Bank of England today saying that the five-pound-note is now worth less in real terms than the one-pound-note was when it was replaced by a coin. I infer from this that a five-pound-coin may be in the offing.
Matti
David - 14 Jan 2004 22:48 GMT > "Evan Kirshenbaum" <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> wrote... > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > coins rather than bills, but I seemed to accumulate a fair number > > of the other coins as well. [...]
> This could soon get "worse"; I heard a chappie in the Bank of > England today saying that the five-pound-note is now worth less in > real terms than the one-pound-note was when it was replaced by a > coin. I infer from this that a five-pound-coin may be in the offing. Given that a pound today is worth roughly what a bob was worth when Ah wor a lad, it seems reasonable to start the notes at ten quid.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0y12-0.htm A Climb at Brimham Rocks This climb is booby-trapped
Robert Bannister - 15 Jan 2004 00:21 GMT > Right on both counts. Where taxes passed on to the consumer are > invisible, the resentment over high prices tends to be incorrectly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > getting in trouble for posting a breakdown of just how much of the > pump price went to taxes. We're having a furore at the moment with petrol going over the $A1.00 per litre mark for the first time in ages. The petrol companies are trying to blame it on taxes, but as an American writer in this morning's Letters to the Editor pointed out, without taxes the petrol still works out at 50c (Australian) per litre, which is more than the gross price the same company sells gasoline for in America.
 Signature Rob Bannister
david56 - 15 Jan 2004 10:06 GMT robban@it.net.au spake thus:
> > Right on both counts. Where taxes passed on to the consumer are > > invisible, the resentment over high prices tends to be incorrectly [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > out at 50c (Australian) per litre, which is more than the gross price > the same company sells gasoline for in America. That's about 20p. Petrol here in the UK is about 75p per litre, of which about 75% is tax (although it varies as there is a fixed component unrelated to the selling price). This makes our petrol about 20p per litre before tax as well. Last time I was in the USA, petrol had gone a little over $1 a gallon which is about 25p per litre. Who knows how much tax is paid on US gas?
Across France, petrol is between 1.00 and 1.20 per litre, which is much the same as in the UK.
 Signature David =====
Evan Kirshenbaum - 15 Jan 2004 17:29 GMT > robban@it.net.au spake thus: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > litre, which is more than the gross price the same company sells > > gasoline for in America. $1.47/gal? I haven't seen that in *years*. We're all happy here in the Bay Area that in the last couple of months gas has gotten down to $1.65/gal rather than $2.00.
> That's about 20p. Petrol here in the UK is about 75p per litre, of > which about 75% is tax (although it varies as there is a fixed > component unrelated to the selling price). This makes our petrol > about 20p per litre before tax as well. Last time I was in the USA, > petrol had gone a little over $1 a gallon which is about 25p per > litre. Who knows how much tax is paid on US gas? They do:
http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/statistics/gas_taxes_by_state_2002.html
In July, 2002, with the exception of Alaska, taxes ranged from a low of 30.6 cents/gal to a high of 53.5 cents/gal. Here in California, it was 50.4 cents/gal, and the national average (normalized by consumption) was 42 cents/gal.
So before taxes, that puts us here at about $1.05/gal, which is 28 cents a liter, or about 15p/liter. In July, 2002, we were paying about $1.95/gal, so before taxes it was $1.45/gal, which is 38 cents/liter or 21p/liter.
Pretty much the same then. Perhaps a little cheaper now (although I don't know whether tax rates have gone down). It looks as though nearly all the difference in prices is due to taxes, with us paying about 30% in taxes and you paying about 75%.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The body was wrapped in duct tape, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |weighted down with concrete blocks Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and a telephone cord was tied |around the neck. Police suspect kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |foul play... (650)857-7572
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Robert Bannister - 16 Jan 2004 00:09 GMT >>robban@it.net.au spake thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the Bay Area that in the last couple of months gas has gotten down to > $1.65/gal rather than $2.00. The writer claimed Atlanta. Who knows how long since he last visited his home country.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Aaron J. Dinkin - 15 Jan 2004 03:42 GMT > We do the same sort of thing with bills, angling to not accumulate one > dollar bills. Actually, I _do_ aim to accumulate one-dollar bills. There's little more frustrating than being stranded at a vending machine with nothing but a twenty.
-Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 15 Jan 2004 07:35 GMT > either have to pay or is given to you if you pay with notes. In the UK > if the price is 4.99, you hand over a fiver and get a penny back - the > 99p habit is a silly one, but we all know why they do it and if you > keep making purchases like that all you end up with is a few pennies. Do we "all know why they do it"? Do YOU know why such prices as "one and elevenpence three-farthings" were popular in the UK a century ago, and why these mutated into today's *.99?
 Signature Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
Ben Zimmer - 15 Jan 2004 08:24 GMT > > either have to pay or is given to you if you pay with notes. In the UK > > if the price is 4.99, you hand over a fiver and get a penny back - the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > elevenpence three-farthings" were popular in the UK a century ago, and > why these mutated into today's *.99? There was a thread on so-called "odd pricing" (also called "odd-even pricing") over on alt.folklore.urban last year:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3EFB557C.873F4867@midway.uchicago.edu
In the US, the "$X.99" pricing scheme is generally attributed to R. H. Macy & Co. in the late nineteenth century. Some claim that Rowland Macy came up with odd pricing in order to keep clerks honest by forcing them to make change. A more likely explanation is that Macy & Co. had an early handle on consumer psychology and knew that such pricing would appeal to bargain hunters. I'd guess that Macy's marketing principles then spread transpondially.
Matthew Huntbach - 15 Jan 2004 09:09 GMT In uk.culture.language.english Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote:
>> either have to pay or is given to you if you pay with notes. In the UK >> if the price is 4.99, you hand over a fiver and get a penny back - the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > elevenpence three-farthings" were popular in the UK a century ago, and > why these mutated into today's *.99? General opinion is because 4.99 looks like "4 and a bit more" and hence a lot less than 5. Although I've also heard explanations about it forcing sales assistants to open the till. The latter explanations don't explain why in a sueprmarket where you just pile a whole load of things into a trolley, it's still the case that a lot of item prices end in 9.
Does anyne else follow my habit of protesting about *.99 prices by paying the 99p exactly in small change?
Matthew Huntbach
david56 - 15 Jan 2004 10:09 GMT mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk spake thus:
> In uk.culture.language.english Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Does anyne else follow my habit of protesting about *.99 prices by paying > the 99p exactly in small change? But surely we're all immune to it now? I translate these prices without conscious effort - £4.99 is pronounced "five pounds" and £2998 is pronounced "three thousand pounds". And houses are priced in the same way: £369,950 is pronounced "three hundred and seventy thousand pounds".
 Signature David =====
Robert Bannister - 15 Jan 2004 00:16 GMT >>| > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids >>| > don't pay taxes, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > in the sand so you won't know what you're paying for value and what > you're paying in tax. Very undaft, that. Do you have VAT *and* sales tax in Ireland? About the only good thing that happened when the Australian government brought in its GST (Goods & Services Tax) was the abolition of most if not all sales tax.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Charles Riggs - 14 Jan 2004 04:11 GMT >> The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids >> don't pay taxes, > >Sure they do. "The price tag says $4.99, but I'm being charged >$5.40." First noticeable government intrusion for most kids. Filling out a 1040 involves you with the government. Paying a sales tax, for a kid, does not
 Signature Charles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Evan Kirshenbaum - 14 Jan 2004 17:56 GMT > >> The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids > >> don't pay taxes, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Filling out a 1040 involves you with the government. Paying a sales > tax, for a kid, does not What's your definition of "involves"? Sales tax is the first noticeable interaction with the government for most kids. If you mean that the government has to notice you, that happens when you get a social security number, which is usually at birth these days, and certainly before the next time your parents file a tax return.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Of course, over the first 10^-10 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |seconds and 10^-30 cubic Palo Alto, CA 94304 |centimeters it averages out to |zero, but when you look in kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |detail.... (650)857-7572 | Philip Morrison
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
R F - 15 Jan 2004 05:45 GMT > What's your definition of "involves"? Sales tax is the first > noticeable interaction with the government for most kids. I'd think it would be kindergarten.
Sara Lorimer - 14 Jan 2004 16:46 GMT > > The population of America is close to 300 million people. Most kids > > don't pay taxes, > > Sure they do. "The price tag says $4.99, but I'm being charged > $5.40." First noticeable government intrusion for most kids. Archie McPhee's, a store in Seattle that sells many small, weird, toys, has (had?) a penny jar by the register. Instead of the usual "Need a penny, take a penny" sign, it reads "Pennies for kids who don't understand sales tax."
 Signature SML
ess el five six zero at columbia dot edu <http://pirate-women.com>
Dave Fawthrop - 08 Jan 2004 14:19 GMT | What's the BBC World News? To my knowledge, it is not broadcast in the | UK. I watch BBC news broadcasts daily and we don't get your version of | it in Ireland. Maybe they IRA blew up the transmitters in Ireland.
BBC World News is broadcast as part of BBC World Service Radio on Digital $ky and Freeview 80, in the UK.
 Signature Dave Fawthrop <dave@hyphenologist.co.uk> Sick of Direct Marketing telephone calls and silent calls? They use a computer which phones many numbers, but talk to only one. Register your: real name, tel number, snail mail address, with Telephone Preference Service, tps@dma.org.uk
Mickwick - 08 Jan 2004 14:39 GMT In alt.usage.english, Dave Fawthrop wrote:
>On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 09:05:57 +0000, Charles Riggs <CHANGE@aircom.net>
>| What's the BBC World News? To my knowledge, it is not broadcast in the >| UK. I watch BBC news broadcasts daily and we don't get your version of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >BBC World News is broadcast as part of BBC World Service Radio on Digital >$ky and Freeview 80, in the UK. And BBC World is a largely news-based television station that is available in the UK from one of those weird analogue satellites full of Hollywood thrillers and British costume dramas whose original soundtracks are just about audible beneath running translations in basso-profundo Polish. Also camel racing, 'Feh-feh-feh-feh-feh scorchio!' game shows and, occasionally, soccer internationals that are only available in the UK by subscription.
 Signature Mickwick
Charles Riggs - 09 Jan 2004 07:54 GMT >| What's the BBC World News? To my knowledge, it is not broadcast in the >| UK. I watch BBC news broadcasts daily and we don't get your version of >| it in Ireland. > >Maybe they IRA blew up the transmitters in Ireland. The IRA are a nicer crowd than they once were. The transmitters were never here to blow up, even if they weren't.
>BBC World News is broadcast as part of BBC World Service Radio on Digital >$ky and Freeview 80, in the UK. I see. Unfortunately, neither digital radio nor Freeview is available to us. I can't get BBC3 or BBC4, unless I get a dish again, either. I can get the time signal from the UK though, so my clocks are to the second when I sync them to my radio clock. Not that anything runs on time in this country to make it important, but I still have some American blood in me.
 Signature Charles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 08:36 GMT | >| What's the BBC World News? To my knowledge, it is not broadcast in the | >| UK. I watch BBC news broadcasts daily and we don't get your version of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | | The IRA are a nicer crowd than they once were. ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO ROTFLMAO Nice crowd who ***STILL*** have hidden arsenals of Heavy machine guns, AK47, Semtex, hand guns etc. They will never be nice guys, even after they have served proper sentences for all the crimes they have committed. Killing small boys in Warrington and shopkeepers in London is wrong or haven't you noticed.
They are rivaled by the Red hand Unionists et. al. who are equally despicable.
These two groups are only slightly more despicable than those who support them, by: Financial aid, (Noraid et. al.), Joining political organizations which de facto support them. Joining tribal organizations which encourage the tribes to do things separately.
The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO the children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together.
Dave F
Peter Duncanson - 09 Jan 2004 11:27 GMT >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO the >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together. This is largely at the insistence of the Catholic Church, whose spokespersons point out that they have separate schools for their kids in exactly the same way as Catholics in England, Scotland and Wales do.
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 12:00 GMT | >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO the | >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together. | | This is largely at the insistence of the Catholic Church, whose | spokespersons point out that they have separate schools for their kids in | exactly the same way as Catholics in England, Scotland and Wales do. Perhaps the spokesperson is a Jesuit, and skilled in the art of saying one thing while meaning another.
 Signature Dave Fawthrop <dave@hyphenologist.co.uk> Killfile and Anti Troll FAQs at http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile.
Peter Duncanson - 09 Jan 2004 12:14 GMT >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO the >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Perhaps the spokesperson is a Jesuit, and skilled in the art of saying one >thing while meaning another. Not a Jesuit - it is a standard line taken by Catholic Church spokespersons of all varieties.
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 12:24 GMT | >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO the | >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | Not a Jesuit - it is a standard line taken by Catholic Church spokespersons | of all varieties. They are still, knowingly, in part, a cause of Northern Irish Troubles, but would not wish to *say* that.
Dave F
Peter Duncanson - 09 Jan 2004 13:14 GMT >| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO the >| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >They are still, knowingly, in part, a cause of Northern Irish Troubles, but >would not wish to *say* that. No they would not wish to say that.
The difficulty of their position is that they are doing what they believe is required by God and by the Church as the appointed instrument of God. [1]
There are initiatives by the Catholic Church in Northern Ireland to have organised contacts between Catholic and non-Catholic kids [2]. However, they wish to do this in such a way that there is no risk of spiritual harm to the Catholic kids.
One of the difficulties is that social separation becomes a vicious circle. There seem to be many priests and bishops who have always lived in a purely Catholic environment. To some of them, neigbouring non-Catholics can be more incomprehensible and alien than fellow Catholics in the most exotic parts of the world.
[1] The position of the Catholic Church is that is has a God-given, exclusive, right and duty to propagate the truth and to prescribe and organise religious activity. It has a monopoly from God.
[2] I am using the term non-Catholic in the way in which it is used by the Catholic Church. Many religious non-Catholics would themselves tend to object to this term and use instead non-Roman Catholic.
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 14:04 GMT | >| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO the | >| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] | | No they would not wish to say that. But it is true that
| >They are still, knowingly, in part, a cause of Northern Irish Troubles, As are the Unionist parties and organisations
| The difficulty of their position is that they are doing what they believe is | required by God and by the Church as the appointed instrument of God. [1] [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] | Catholic Church. Many religious non-Catholics would themselves tend to | object to this term and use instead non-Roman Catholic. Absolute sophistry.
We are all responsible for the results of our actions.
Dave F
Dave F
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 14:25 GMT >Absolute sophistry. > >We are all responsible for the results of our actions. I don't think you can use the word "sophistry" in connection with any religious belief. The charge of "sophistry" only works when there is intent to deceive and the charge is leveled to expose the fallacy used in the reasoning.
No matter how wildly unreasonable a statement based on a religious belief is, there is no intent to deceive. The statement is based on strong conviction and believed true by the person making the statement.
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 14:45 GMT | >Absolute sophistry. | > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | intent to deceive and the charge is leveled to expose the fallacy used | in the reasoning. That is what I meant, They intend to deceive.
| No matter how wildly unreasonable a statement based on a religious | belief is, there is no intent to deceive. The statement is based on | strong conviction and believed true by the person making the | statement. I can not believe that any person calling him/her self a Christian could support and defend any action which, de facto, supports terrorism.
Dave F
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 15:24 GMT >| >Absolute sophistry. >| > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >That is what I meant, They intend to deceive.
>| No matter how wildly unreasonable a statement based on a religious >| belief is, there is no intent to deceive. The statement is based on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I can not believe that any person calling him/her self a Christian could >support and defend any action which, de facto, supports terrorism. Why make Christians more accountable than any other religion? Why should present-day Christians be any less terroristic than the Christians over the past 200 centuries? All this "turn the other cheek" stuff is mere sophistry from the truly religious. They just want the diversion so they can get their licks in first.
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 13:24 GMT >| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO the >| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >They are still, knowingly, in part, a cause of Northern Irish Troubles, but >would not wish to *say* that. Ahh, I take it you are one of those that would like to drum them out.
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 14:07 GMT | >| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO the | >| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] | | Ahh, I take it you are one of those that would like to drum them out. No I would wish to see Northern Irish children going to school and playing together. If that were to happen all "troubles" would end in a generation.
Dave F
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 15:15 GMT >| >| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO the >| >| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >together. If that were to happen all "troubles" would end in a >generation. I think you missed the allusion. I also think your spectacles are rose-tinted if not orange-tinted.
I wish that our own "troubles" here in the US could have been cured in the first generation after Brown vs Board of Education in 1954.
The only way to truly end the "troubles" in one generation is to completely remove all children from their parents and all influence by their parents. When one father is beating the Lambeg drum in a parade, and the other father is marking his neighborhood by painting the tricolour on kerbs, not much is accomplished by the children going to the same school.
If you could implement a program of all children in NI going to the same school, which school program would you eliminate?
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 15:24 GMT | >| >| >| >The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO the | >| >| >| >children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] | I think you missed the allusion. I also think your spectacles are | rose-tinted if not orange-tinted. You clearly can not even envisage an independent point of view. Your posts show that you are yet another Bigot. I am a Yorkshire Tyke born and bred. If you read upthread you will find that I roundly condemn both sets of terrorists, their supportors, Churches, and tribes.
Dave F
Tony Cooper - 09 Jan 2004 16:23 GMT >| >| >They are still, knowingly, in part, a cause of Northern Irish Troubles, but >| >| >would not wish to *say* that. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >You clearly can not even envisage an independent point of view. >Your posts show that you are yet another Bigot. Bigot? Hardly. A realistic point of view is no less independent.
>I am a Yorkshire Tyke born and bred. >If you read upthread you will find that I roundly condemn both sets of >terrorists, their supportors, Churches, and tribes. As do I. I don't think anything I've said reflects bigotry in any way, is supportive of either side, or lays blame to either side.
As a Catholic, your comments do come across to me as rather irritatingly and typically insensitive. You suggest all children go to the same school. You duck the question of "which school", but it's obvious that your thinking is that the Catholics should be the ones to do the giving up. The extrapolation of your position is that if the Catholics give up all vestiges of Catholicism, then the "troubles" will be over. Oliver Cromwell and Tomás de Torquemada used similar thinking.
But, you are correct if you feel that I don't envision that the solution is the elimination of one of the group's customs and the exposure of children of one religion to the children of another religion. It's not that simple.
Your view is also irritatingly simplistic in blaming the "troubles" solely on religious differences.
You might want to look up "bigot" before you fling the word about. It means "a person that is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices". When you obstinately cling to the view that integrating children in schools is the solution to a problem, and reject out of hand that parental influence is the greater problem, that's pretty close to bigotry. Simply condemning the extremists on both sides does not make one innocent of bigotry.
Dave Fawthrop - 09 Jan 2004 17:25 GMT | >| I think you missed the allusion. I also think your spectacles are | >| rose-tinted if not orange-tinted. Anyone
| >You clearly can not even envisage an independent point of view. | >Your posts show that you are yet another Bigot. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | | As a Catholic, You have here declared your tribe.
| You might want to look up "bigot" before you fling the word about. It | means "a person that is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or | her own opinions and prejudices". i.e. Catholicism and the refusal to accept its direct involvement in the ?troubles?. Perhaps you also defend your Churches deliberate and knowing defense, of pedophile priests
Saying:
| >| orange-tinted. Is a classic sign of a Bigot. The other tribe or anyone who does not suport my tribe is a member of the other tribe and must be attacked at any opportunity.
Saying "green tinted" would indicate the same.
Dave F
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 03:50 GMT >| As a Catholic, > >You have here declared your tribe. You might say so. I prefer to say that I have declared my bias. It would be deceptive, in my opinion, to argue this point without doing so.
>| You might want to look up "bigot" before you fling the word about. It >| means "a person that is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or >| her own opinions and prejudices". > >i.e. Catholicism and the refusal to accept its direct involvement in the >?troubles?. If you are going to discuss the issue, try to marshall your thoughts before writing. What's the reference to above? Is the Catholic church refusing to accept involvement in the troubles? Am I refusing to accept the Catholic church's direct involvement? Is the Catholic church refusing to become directly involved with solving the problems?
>Perhaps you also defend your Churches deliberate and knowing >defense, of pedophile priests No. I neither defend nor deny the church's toleration, cover-ups, or lack of effective controls. That said, what has that to do with this? Or, is it just a random shot and about as relative to the troubles in Northern Ireland as a gratuitous mention on my part of Peter Sutcliffe as example of a Yorkshire Tyke?
>Saying: >| >| orange-tinted. >Is a classic sign of a Bigot. Classic? Please.
>The other tribe or anyone who does not suport my tribe is a member of the >other tribe and must be attacked at any opportunity. The attack is on the thinking, or the lack of it. Fuzzy thinking is not a tribal issue.
>Saying "green tinted" would indicate the same. Mike Stevens - 10 Jan 2004 01:12 GMT > As a Catholic, your comments do come across to me as rather > irritatingly and typically insensitive. You suggest all children go [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > exposure of children of one religion to the children of another > religion. It's not that simple. I have no first-hand experience of the education system in Northern Ireland, but I used to know quite a few people who worked in it. From what they told me, the situation there was (and probably still is) that almost every school in the province was/is either institutionally Roman Catholic or institutionally Protestant. There were/are few that are neither, which admit children from both communities and offer a secular education. Some people think that if the NI education system was reformed so that the majority of schools were of the third kind, then the polarisation between the two communities would gradually be eroded.
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.yk Old grammarians never die, they simply parse away.
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 08:14 GMT >> As a Catholic, your comments do come across to me as rather >> irritatingly and typically insensitive. You suggest all children go [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >reformed so that the majority of schools were of the third kind, then >the polarisation between the two communities would gradually be eroded. Your phrasing is quite different than Fawthorp's. His statement was: "No I would wish to see Northern Irish children going to school and playing together. If that were to happen all "troubles" would end in a generation."
Gradual erosion is not accomplished in a generation. As I brought up in an earlier post, we (legally) required desegregation of our schools in 1954. We are still trying to erode the polarization between the two communities involved. We have made progress, but the process is very much ongoing.
The statement is also too simplistic in that it ascribes all of the reasons for the "troubles" to be based on the two communities not getting on together as individuals. This completely ignores the economic factors that are core to the problem.
A secular school system may offer some advantages somewhere along the line. But, if you insist that all children attend only a secular school, you are forcing people to give up their religious custom If you offer a choice, the secular schools may not be chosen. Either way, though, there wouldn't be that much difference in a generation.
Dave Fawthrop - 10 Jan 2004 08:34 GMT | The statement is also too simplistic in that it ascribes all of the | reasons for the "troubles" to be based on the two communities not | getting on together as individuals. This completely ignores the | economic factors that are core to the problem. A circular argument, and problem: The economic factors are caused by the two communities being at war. The war makes sure that no sensible person will invest in Northern Ireland. The British Government invests in NI without expecting a return.
Dave F
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 19:46 GMT >| The statement is also too simplistic in that it ascribes all of the >| reasons for the "troubles" to be based on the two communities not >| getting on together as individuals. This completely ignores the >| economic factors that are core to the problem. > >A circular argument, and problem:
>The economic factors are caused by the two communities being at war. Again, too simplistic. Not untrue, but superficial. The unemployment rate in East Belfast (Protestant) was 4.7% in 1999. The unemployment rate in West Belfast (Catholic) was 16% for the same period. To simply say the economy is bad because the factions are warring ignores the conditions that keep the warring going.
There is also the factor that certain participants on both sides *want* the problems to continue. Without the problems, they have no function.
>The war makes sure that no sensible person will invest in Northern Ireland. Bring down the unemployment and equalize the figures, and fewer people will have time or inclination for warring. That's simplistic too, but more realistic than putting the money into creating a new school system that forces people to change their customs. Whether or not you agree with their customs, the customs are important to them.
>The British Government invests in NI without expecting a return. Yes, but that's part of what governments are for. Your government and mine both invest in people and areas that don't provide a tangible return. NI is not the only application of your tax dollars that doesn't provide a return.
Let me point out here that the US is not any better at all in dealing with seemingly no-win situations. We've pumped billions of dollars into foreign aid to countries that abuse the benefit and do nothing in return but bite us in the a.s. And, that's just one area. We have many domestic problems that we not only don't seem to be able to solve, but seem to screw up more with every proposed solution.
Dave Fawthrop - 10 Jan 2004 20:02 GMT | >| The statement is also too simplistic in that it ascribes all of the | >| reasons for the "troubles" to be based on the two communities not [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] | *want* the problems to continue. Without the problems, they have no | function. Yes both sides are absolutely insane, as the word is understood in England
| >The war makes sure that no sensible person will invest in Northern Ireland. | [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] | many domestic problems that we not only don't seem to be able to | solve, but seem to screw up more with every proposed solution. You have been listening to too much IRA/Noraid propaganda.
This is ggetting too off topic for ucla :-(
Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 01:51 GMT >You have been listening to too much IRA/Noraid propaganda. No, the Noraid people are about as reliable as Ian's people. Actually, the figures are from the NI Department of Economic Development. But, it's always best to cast doubt on unwanted news.
>This is ggetting too off topic for ucla :-( Agreed.
Dr Robin Bignall - 11 Jan 2004 00:06 GMT > We have >many domestic problems that we not only don't seem to be able to >solve, but seem to screw up more with every proposed solution. "What this country needs are more unemployed politicians." Edward Langley (naturalised American artist, 1928-1995)
"I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts." Will Rogers.
 Signature wrmst rgrds Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire England
Robert Bannister - 11 Jan 2004 00:31 GMT >>| The statement is also too simplistic in that it ascribes all of the >>| reasons for the "troubles" to be based on the two communities not [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > many domestic problems that we not only don't seem to be able to > solve, but seem to screw up more with every proposed solution. Not specifically a US thing, but I was horrified to read that the Southern Baptists are sending missionaries to Iraq disguised as aid workers.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Evan Kirshenbaum - 12 Jan 2004 16:59 GMT > Not specifically a US thing, but I was horrified to read that the > Southern Baptists are sending missionaries to Iraq disguised as aid > workers. Unfortunately, that serves two purposes for them: missionary work and "creating martyrs".
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |All tax revenue is the result of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |holding a gun to somebody's head. Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Not paying taxes is against the law. |If you don't pay your taxes, you'll kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |be fined. If you don't pay the fine, (650)857-7572 |you'll be jailed. If you try to |escape from jail, you'll be shot. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | P.J. O'Rourke
David - 11 Jan 2004 01:19 GMT > >The British Government invests in NI without expecting a return. > > > Yes, but that's part of what governments are for. Your government and > mine both invest in people and areas that don't provide a tangible > return. NI is not the only application of your tax dollars that > doesn't provide a return.
> Let me point out here that the US is not any better at all in dealing > with seemingly no-win situations. We've pumped billions of dollars > into foreign aid to countries that abuse the benefit and do nothing in > return but bite us in the a.s. And, that's just one area. We have > many domestic problems that we not only don't seem to be able to > solve, but seem to screw up more with every proposed solution. Probably been the perennial cry of the non-political animal since Set set about dismantling Osiris in the Egyptian dessert but my solution is so simple: protect your donkeys' arses!
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ada/07-0.htm Haddocks are sensitive fish...
Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 02:36 GMT >> >The British Government invests in NI without expecting a return. >> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >set about dismantling Osiris in the Egyptian dessert but my solution is >so simple: protect your donkeys' arses! So, in Egypt they serve a.s for afters?
David - 11 Jan 2004 02:53 GMT > So, in Egypt they serve a.s for afters? I wouldn't know. Have you ever been to Egypt? I haven't.
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/joachim/01-0.htm One night, the Emperor failed to please his fifteenth wife. "You are not a complete man," she said to him.
Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 05:39 GMT >> So, in Egypt they serve a.s for afters? > >I wouldn't know. Have you ever been to Egypt? I haven't. When you snip your lines:
>Probably been the perennial cry of the non-political animal since Set >set about dismantling Osiris in the Egyptian dessert but my solution is >so simple: protect your donkeys' arses! and we lose "dessert", my line does go a bit flat.
David - 11 Jan 2004 12:09 GMT > >> So, in Egypt they serve a.s for afters? > > > >I wouldn't know. Have you ever been to Egypt? I haven't.
> When you snip your lines:
> >Probably been the perennial cry of the non-political animal since > >Set set about dismantling Osiris in the Egyptian dessert but my > >solution is so simple: protect your donkeys' arses!
> and we lose "dessert", my line does go a bit flat. Oops!
There am I, protecting my donkey's arse and it still ends up in the pudding club!
 Signature http://www.dacha.freeuk.com/cook/ Curd Tarts, Oatcakes, Oaty Dumplings, Parkin, Yorkshire Pudding
Robert Bannister - 11 Jan 2004 00:29 GMT > A secular school system may offer some advantages somewhere along the > line. But, if you insist that all children attend only a secular > school, you are forcing people to give up their religious custom If > you offer a choice, the secular schools may not be chosen. Either > way, though, there wouldn't be that much difference in a generation. I'm not disagreeing about non-segrated schools not being the answer to the problem, but I cannot see that secular schools force people to give up their religious custom. That is, unless it is their religious custom to brainwash their children. I would like to see all religious schools abolished. If people want religion, they should practise it in their own time.
 Signature Rob Bannister
David - 11 Jan 2004 01:50 GMT > > A secular school system may offer some advantages somewhere along > > the line. But, if you insist that all children attend only a > > secular school, you are forcing people to give up their religious > > custom If you offer a choice, the secular schools may not be > > chosen. Either way, though, there wouldn't be that much difference > > in a generation.
> I'm not disagreeing about non-segrated schools not being the answer > to the problem, but I cannot see that secular schools force people > to give up their religious custom. That is, unless it is their > religious custom to brainwash their children. I would like to see > all religious schools abolished. If people want religion, they > should practise it in their own time. Agreed.
(Gee, it's really nice to agree on something, even if it's really ungodly! :-)
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Tony Cooper - 11 Jan 2004 03:09 GMT >> A secular school system may offer some advantages somewhere along the >> line. But, if you insist that all children attend only a secular [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >to brainwash their children. I would like to see all religious schools >abolished. Secular schools don't force people to give up their customs, but this was a follow-up to a post that referred to *replacing* the present Protestant and Catholic schools with secular schools.
So, if it is the custom for the Protestants and Catholics in NI to send their children to a school that includes religious instruction, then forcing them to send their children to a secular school would be making them give up their customs.
The "brain-washing" point is a little more difficult for me to answer. I was born Catholic, sent my children to parochial schools, and am still - nominally - a member of the Catholic church. Yet, I regard the Bible as book of fables that provides moral lessons much like Aesop's. The brain-washing didn't take in my case.
Nonetheless, I'm an advocate of freedom of religion and the right of anyone to worship anything they please in any manner that suits them. I'm not big on religions that require the sacrificing of virgins, but - hey! - if they can find one these days they should be allowed to ask. My belief in the freedom of religion includes allowing people their right to construct schools and send their children to them.
If you look at the statistics, you will see that (in the US) graduates of private religious schools do very well on college entrance tests. They seem to be getting an education that is equal to or better than a secular school education. That can't be a bad thing.
I don't know that just attending a private school with religious instruction is a brain-washing process anyway. For it to be so, you have to assume that only thing the child will learn is what the child learns at school. In my case, my two children have remarkably the same attitude about religion as I do even though they attended Catholic schools. Whatever the school washed in, I seemed to have washed out.
> If people want religion, they should practise it in their own >time. Well, they are. If someone attends a private school with religious instruction, they *are* on their own time.
Matthew Huntbach - 13 Jan 2004 09:43 GMT In uk.culture.language.english Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@mungedyahoo.com> wrote:
> The "brain-washing" point is a little more difficult for me to answer. > I was born Catholic, sent my children to parochial schools, and am > still - nominally - a member of the Catholic church. Yet, I regard > the Bible as book of fables that provides moral lessons much like > Aesop's. The brain-washing didn't take in my case. Mostly it seems Catholic schools manage to deliver just an immunising dose of Catholicism. Despite (or maybe because of) the existence of state funded Catholic schools in England, every week the Catholic press is full of letters and articles on the theme "why don't our kids carry on our religion?". You will generally find the "bring back Latin" crowd and the "make it more modern and trendy" crowd equally convinced that if it were all done their way, the kids would be flocking to mass.
> If you look at the statistics, you will see that (in the US) graduates > of private religious schools do very well on college entrance tests. > They seem to be getting an education that is equal to or better than a > secular school education. That can't be a bad thing. Same is seen with English state-funded Catholic schools. They regularly top the league tables of school performance. This is very embarrassing to the secularists who make all sorts of excuses for it because they just can't admit that maybe we Papists have got something going for us somehow. Generally they will say "Ah, but these Catholic schools are just a way of taking on white middle class kids in otherwise deprived multi-ethnic areas". My wife is chair of the board of governors of a Catholic primary school in my borough. Most of the kids in that school have brown skins, many come from poor backgrounds, and the only test for entrance is their attendance at mass. The school is top of the borough's league table.
Matthew Huntbach
Robert Bannister - 14 Jan 2004 00:00 GMT > Same is seen with English state-funded Catholic schools. They regularly > top the league tables of school performance. This is very embarrassing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > come from poor backgrounds, and the only test for entrance is their > attendance at mass. The school is top of the borough's league table. Private schools always win over non-private ones because they can easily expel their students, who then usually end up in the state system. In Australia, the federal government has for years been giving a higher and higher amount of money to private schools. The 'top' schools here are, in fact, mainly protestant, but the Catholic schools do a good job for much lower fees. I have nothing against teachers in private schools - they work as hard as any other teacher and produce good results - but I still believe (wow: a faith issue) that schooling should be egalitarian and secular.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Matthew Huntbach - 14 Jan 2004 11:12 GMT In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote:
>> Same is seen with English state-funded Catholic schools. They regularly >> top the league tables of school performance.
> Private schools always win over non-private ones because they can easily > expel their students, who then usually end up in the state system. In [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > still believe (wow: a faith issue) that schooling should be egalitarian > and secular. Yes, but this is not what we are talking about. I was talking about Catholic schools in England which are not private and do not charge fees. The vast majority of the Catholic schools in England fall into this category - they are part of the state education system, funded by local authorities just like other state schools.
Matthew Huntbach
Robert Bannister - 15 Jan 2004 00:24 GMT > In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > this category - they are part of the state education system, funded by > local authorities just like other state schools. I was not aware of that. Our RC schools are private, but their fees are in the middle to low bracket.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Matthew Huntbach - 15 Jan 2004 08:59 GMT In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote:
>> Yes, but this is not what we are talking about. I was talking about >> Catholic schools in England which are not private and do not charge >> fees. The vast majority of the Catholic schools in England fall into >> this category - they are part of the state education system, funded by >> local authorities just like other state schools.
> I was not aware of that. Our RC schools are private, but their fees are > in the middle to low bracket. I was simplifying slightly. In fact the Catholic Church is responsible for 15% of the capital costs of state Catholic schools in England, but none of the running costs. The local education authority appoints a lower proportion of the school governing board than other state schools, and the schools are permitted to have an entrance policy in which religious practice of the parents is taken into account.
Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach - 13 Jan 2004 09:30 GMT In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote:
> I'm not disagreeing about non-segrated schools not being the answer to > the problem, but I cannot see that secular schools force people to give > up their religious custom. That is, unless it is their religious custom > to brainwash their children. I would like to see all religious schools > abolished. If people want religion, they should practise it in their own > time. Would you say also that Welsh language medium schools should be abolished on the grounds that all kids should be taught in English just like everyoine else, and if they want to pick up Welsh they can damn well do that in their own spare time?
Matthew Huntbach
Robert Bannister - 14 Jan 2004 00:02 GMT > In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > everyoine else, and if they want to pick up Welsh they can damn well do > that in their own spare time? I fail to see the comparison. I suppose there may be some people who consider Welsh to as irrelevant as religion, but it seems like a comparison between apples and elephants to me.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Tony Cooper - 14 Jan 2004 00:50 GMT >> In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >consider Welsh to as irrelevant as religion, but it seems like a >comparison between apples and elephants to me. I see the comparison. The issue is choice. If a parent wants his child to be educated in a system that provides instruction in some traditional area - be religion or language - the parent should have that choice provided the choice does not cause harm to the child.
You could make a case for a secular system with a supplementary system of traditional instruction. In other words, the child attends the secular school with all the other children, and then attends traditional classes later in the day at a different location. Many Jewish children do that now.
I don't think that this alternative is as effective in teaching the traditional topics. The traditional topics are better learned when they are integrated with the non-traditional lessons.
A rigid requirement of one, universal, secular system also denies the parent home schooling as an option. I don't happen to agree with this type of education, but many do and many find it preferable.
You can argue that the child is denied choice if the parent opts for some non-secular system. But, then, the child is denied choice by forced to attend *any* system.
I think the important issue is that all systems have requirements and guidelines. The non-secular school should be required to teach all of the core programs.
Robert Bannister - 15 Jan 2004 00:27 GMT > I think the important issue is that all systems have requirements and > guidelines. The non-secular school should be required to teach all > of the core programs. I am sure they are obliged to, at least in 'western' countries. I still think a language and a religion are different things. One is real; the other a matter of belief. The latter, in my opinion, should be reserved for consenting adults, preferably in private.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Tony Cooper - 15 Jan 2004 03:17 GMT >> I think the important issue is that all systems have requirements and >> guidelines. The non-secular school should be required to teach all [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >other a matter of belief. The latter, in my opinion, should be reserved >for consenting adults, preferably in private. Oh, I understand your point. I believe in it to a degree. The thing is that customs are important. We often talk here about the erosion of freedoms. The ability to embrace and perpetuate customs is as much a freedom as anything else. Even if the freedom is based on fuzzy thinking, it's important to the believer.
Religion is just as real as the requirements of grammar. We invented the rules of grammar just as someone invented the religious doctrines. If we had to abandon all grammatical rules, or abandon all concepts of religion, man would be better off without grammar. Grammar offers no solace, no hope, no concept of something larger than what is visibly before us. Grammar makes things orderly. Religion makes things bearable.
And, I say this as a person that does not embrace or accept religion. I do see that it's important to others, though.
Tony Mountifield - 14 Jan 2004 08:57 GMT > > In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > consider Welsh to as irrelevant as religion, but it seems like a > comparison between apples and elephants to me. To you maybe, but there are a significant number of people who consider religion to be as relevant as language. That naturally affects their choice of school. One man's "brainwashing" is another man's "giving the best foundation for life".
Cheers, Tony
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Matthew Huntbach - 14 Jan 2004 10:51 GMT In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote:
>>>I'm not disagreeing about non-segrated schools not being the answer to >>>the problem, but I cannot see that secular schools force people to give >>>up their religious custom. That is, unless it is their religious custom >>>to brainwash their children. I would like to see all religious schools >>>abolished. If people want religion, they should practise it in their own >>>time.
>> Would you say also that Welsh language medium schools should be abolished >> on the grounds that all kids should be taught in English just like >> everyone else, and if they want to pick up Welsh they can damn well do >> that in their own spare time?
> I fail to see the comparison. I suppose there may be some people who > consider Welsh to as irrelevant as religion, but it seems like a > comparison between apples and elephants to me. In both cases it is a matter of parents wishing their children to maintain their culture, and doing so by sending them to schools where that culture is built into the education. Also the argument was that educating different groups of children in different schools is bound to lead to tribalism and conflict. Surely, if we are to take this approach (which BTW, I don't - I support Welsh language schools) there's nothing more divisive than encouraging some people in the population to speak their own language which the others can't understand.
Matthew Huntbach
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 11 Jan 2004 02:38 GMT > I have no first-hand experience of the education system in Northern > Ireland, but I used to know quite a few people who worked in it. From > what they told me, the situation there was (and probably still is) that > almost every school in the province was/is either institutionally Roman > Catholic or institutionally Protestant. /Everything/ in NI is either institutionally Catholic or institutionally Protestant. Havne't you heard the [quite probably NOT apocryphal] tale about the taxi driver saying to the fare "Are yous Catholic or Protestant?", and, upon receiving the response "I'm neither; I'm an atheist", asking the supplementary question "Ah, but are yous a Catholic atheist or a Protestant one?"? (Substitute Moslem, Jew, Hindu, whatever for atheist in that exchange.)
 Signature Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
Dave Fawthrop - 11 Jan 2004 08:09 GMT | > I have no first-hand experience of the education system in Northern | > Ireland, but I used to know quite a few people who worked in it. From [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] | atheist or a Protestant one?"? (Substitute Moslem, Jew, Hindu, whatever | for atheist in that exchange.) Back to the English Language.
It is *NOT* apocryphal. I once *knew* a Northern Irish woman who happened to be an Atheist, and was forced to describe herself in NI as a "Protestant Atheist". The tribal affiliation being more important belief.
Dave F
R F - 09 Jan 2004 16:17 GMT > I wish that our own "troubles" here in the US could have been cured in > the first generation after Brown vs Board of Education in 1954. Oy! That's Brown *v.* Board of Education, Coop!
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 03:44 GMT >> I wish that our own "troubles" here in the US could have been cured in >> the first generation after Brown vs Board of Education in 1954. > >Oy! That's Brown *v.* Board of Education, Coop! You know, I noticed that when I checked on the web for the date. I think that's the first time that I've noticed it. I've always thought that "vs." meant "versus" and is the correct abbreviation. I've never noticed the plain "v." before. When is which correct?
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 11 Jan 2004 02:38 GMT > >> I wish that our own "troubles" here in the US could have been cured in > >> the first generation after Brown vs Board of Education in 1954. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that "vs." meant "versus" and is the correct abbreviation. I've never > noticed the plain "v." before. When is which correct? Either: although since the abbreviation "vs" ends in the same letter as the unabbreviated word, it is not usually followed in proper English by a full stop; the latter IS required in the other abbreviation "v.", of course.
 Signature Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
Dr Robin Bignall - 10 Jan 2004 00:35 GMT >If you could implement a program of all children in NI going to the >same school, which school program would you eliminate? Drama.
 Signature wrmst rgrds Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire England
Tony Cooper - 10 Jan 2004 03:45 GMT >>If you could implement a program of all children in NI going to the >>same school, which school program would you eliminate? >> >Drama. Not bad, Not bad at all.
Matthew Huntbach - 13 Jan 2004 09:19 GMT In uk.culture.language.english Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>The Northern Irish School system is also culpable, in thatROTFLMAO the >>children of the two tribes never go to the same schools and play together. > This is largely at the insistence of the Catholic Church, whose > spokespersons point out that they have separate schools for their kids in > exactly the same way as Catholics in England, Scotland and Wales do. The existence of Catholic schools in England, however, does not seem to have resulted in violent conflcit between Catholics and others.
Catholic schools were established in England because Catholics objected to the way state schools at the time involved a considerable amount of indoctrination into the Protestant version of Christianity.
Matthew Huntbach
R F - 13 Jan 2004 20:07 GMT > The existence of Catholic schools in England, however, does not seem > to have resulted in violent conflcit between Catholics and others. > > Catholic schools were established in England because Catholics objected > to the way state schools at the time involved a considerable amount of > indoctrination into the Protestant version of Christianity. That is also the origin of Catholic schools in at least some parts of the US, including New York (Largest City in America).
Robert Bannister - 14 Jan 2004 00:04 GMT > In uk.culture.language.english Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > to the way state schools at the time involved a considerable amount of > indoctrination into the Protestant version of Christianity. Valid point. This was something wrong with UK state schools at the time. I remember we used to have daily assemblies with hymn and psalm singing, although I get the impression this has now been largely done away with.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Skitt - 14 Jan 2004 00:37 GMT >> Catholic schools were established in England because Catholics >> objected [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > singing, although I get the impression this has now been largely done > away with. I think that I was lucky to attend Latvian schools in my childhood. We had a class titled (and I translate it literally) "Belief Study", and that is what it was -- the study of all the major religions. There were a couple of Baptist boys who would have none of that, and they were excused. Baptists were an oddity in Latvia, anyway.
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Matthew Huntbach - 14 Jan 2004 10:33 GMT In uk.culture.language.english Skitt <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote:
>>> Catholic schools were established in England because Catholics >>> objected to the way state schools at the time involved a considerable amount >>> of indoctrination into the Protestant version of Christianity.
>> Valid point. This was something wrong with UK state schools at the >> time. I remember we used to have daily assemblies with hymn and psalm >> singing, although I get the impression this has now been largely done >> away with.
> I think that I was lucky to attend Latvian schools in my childhood. We had > a class titled (and I translate it literally) "Belief Study", and that is > what it was -- the study of all the major religions. That is now how it is in schools in England. Religious education seems to be a sterile list of religions where you have to learn the beliefs and practices associated with each, but with any controversy or deeper discussion ruled out. It strikes me as a silly appraoch, because many of the big religious issues cut across the religions - for example, the question of whether one regards the texts in a fundamentalist or an allegorical way.
Matthew Huntbach
Simon R. Hughes - 14 Jan 2004 10:58 GMT > Religious education seems to > be a sterile list of religions where you have to learn the beliefs and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > question of whether one regards the texts in a fundamentalist or an > allegorical way. That's a big religious issue? I would have thought that religions' approach of human rights were bigger. And more important for human society as a whole.
The kind of education that seeks to develop respectful pupils requires a school system that does not simply demand good exam results, however. Perhaps we should start with educational reform.
 Signature Simon R. Hughes
Matthew Huntbach - 14 Jan 2004 12:04 GMT In uk.culture.language.english Simon R. Hughes <a57998.not.this.bit@yahoo.no> wrote:
>> Religious education seems to >> be a sterile list of religions where you have to learn the beliefs and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> question of whether one regards the texts in a fundamentalist or an >> allegorical way.
> That's a big religious issue? I would have thought that > religions' approach of human rights were bigger. And more > important for human society as a whole. I gave it only as an example. Religious education in the UK has to be bland and non-offensive, so it consists of such things as learning lists of the holy days associated with each religion, and regards something like a critical examination of religions' approach to human rights as something to be avoided. Or at least it would play up all the positive aspects of religion and play down the negative. So there would be lessons on how the vaious religions strive for peace and justice, but none on how they may have been used to justify torture and killing.
Matthew Huntbach
Charles Riggs - 08 Jan 2004 09:05 GMT >> I listen to the BBC World >> News on radio, and watch BBC America. (Which is the name of the BBC [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Because they are talking to Yanks, and they know they have to use simple >language. Yanks? Okay, if you want to be abusive, do you find Joyce's works to be simple? Far more Americans read them, enjoy them, and understand them than do either Limeys or Paddies, if we can go by book sales, college courses offered, and the home countries of Joycean scholars. The library in my town here in Ireland hardly bothers to shelve them; even in Dublin I found the same to be true. My last library in America had a ten-foot-wide bookshelf of works by him and about him, from floor to ceiling.
Does America's largest newspaper, the New York Times, use simpler language than the Times out of London? If anything, the reverse is the case.
 Signature Charles Riggs Email address: chriggs¦at¦eircom¦dot¦net
Evan Kirshenbaum - 08 Jan 2004 22:00 GMT > > I listen to the BBC World > > News on radio, and watch BBC America. (Which is the name of the BBC [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Because they are talking to Yanks, and they know they have to use simple > language. Okay, let's look at _The Times_
This is not the biggest problem facing GSK in America. Another cross-border dispute has the potential to do even more damage. A campaign by America's elderly for cheaper medicines is gaining momentum. [1/8/04]
Qantas Airways, the Australian national flag carrier, said today that US authorities have banned passengers from gathering near toilets and other places on flights to America. [1/7/04]
Regarding growth, there should be no great surprises in America and Britain. Fuelled by the almost unprecedented stimulus from rock-bottom interest rates, exploding budget deficits and a 20 per cent devaluation of the dollar, the US economy will expand by about 4.5 per cent this year -- and achieving this figure will make 2004 the strongest year for US growth since 1984. Britain will also rebound quite strongly, comfortably achieving Gordon Brown's forecast of 3 per cent growth. [1/6/04]
I guess they must be dumbing their paper down for Yanks. (The first and third are written by their own people, the second is an AP story from Australia.)
How about the _Guardian_?
The Florida home, which Lord Black once described as "ridiculous and vulgar and absurd", sits on a coastline that is a playground for America's super-rich. [1/8/04]
Part of the problem is that unlike America or France, Britain doesn't have its own space agency to promote forays into space. [1/8/04]
The company's collapse into bankruptcy in late 2001 was the first in a series of scandals that rocked corporate America and shook investors' confidence in the stock market. [1/8/04]
This is because Britain is one of the 27 mainly European countries on the US's visa waiver programme, which allows citizens from those nations to enter America for up to three months without a visa. [1/8/04]
I guess they must sell a lot of papers to us Yanks, as well. I wonder why the Brits put up with it.
Maybe the _Independent_?
By refusing to budge, the IRS positions itself in the vanguard of US economic imperialism and protectionism. Its attitude seems to be that if the product is discovered in the US, then any success it enjoys is down to the genius and superiority of American science, but if discovered elsewhere, then it must be the effect of America's skills at selling, never mind that it might be a product that improves people's health. [1/8/04]
However, the US tax authorities are likely to argue that Glaxo should pay tax on profits from US sales in America and that its US subsidiaries have been deliberately overpaying for drugs made by sister companies in Europe. [1/8/04]
"It hasn't been exhibited in this country and I don't believe it was exhibited in America apart from when it was in the Marlborough Gallery [in New York] for sale." [1/8/04. The speaker is the "director of Tate Britain".]
Scores of undercover nuclear scientists screened America's largest cities for radiation amid fears that al-Qa'ida might release a dirty bomb at an open-air event such as the New Year celebrations in Times Square. [1/8/04]
Her bitter divorce battle has spiralled into an international scandal, involving accusations of kidnapping, corruption and dirty politics. It may even have significant implications for America's "war against terrorism". [1/7/04]
Do you have another newspaper you'd like me to check? I was unable to find a recent instance of "America" being used other than "the United States". The papers all appeared to use "America", "North America", "South America", and "the Americas" the same way we do here. (The one possible exception was a use of "central America" for what I would expect to see as "Central America".)
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If I am ever forced to make a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |choice between learning and using Palo Alto, CA 94304 |win32, or leaving the computer |industry, let me just say it was kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |nice knowing all of you. :-) (650)857-7572 | Randal Schwartz
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Raymond S. Wise - 08 Jan 2004 00:40 GMT I know that Andrew Davidson has abandoned the discussion. It's too bad he won't have the chance to learn that he is wrong. (I briefly considered e-mailing him a copy of this post, but decided against it.)
> [blah blah blah] then > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > prevailing one in the USA - however it is quite certainly not the prevailing > view in the UK - and I doubt that it prevails elsewhere. It is quite easy to prove that you are wrong about the "America"-as-a-synonym-for-"USA" meaning not being the prevailing one in the UK:
*The Collins English Dictionary* is a British dictionary which follows the "popular tradition" of listing definitions. This means that the most widely used definition is listed first, followed by definitions which are employed less often. This is in contrast to the "scholarly tradition," used by the OED and the Merriam-Webster dictionaries, in which the oldest meaning of a word is listed first, followed by more recent definitions.
In the light of this, what does the Collins have to say about "America" and "American"?
From http://www.wordreference.com/english/definition.asp?en=America
[quote]
*America* [...] noun 1 short for the: United States of America
2 Also called: *the Americas* the American continent, including North, South, and Central America
[end quote]
From http://www.wordreference.com/english/definition.asp?en=american
[quote]
American [...] _adjective_ 1 of or relating to the United States of America, its inhabitants, or their form of English
2 of or relating to the American continent _noun_ 3 a native or citizen of the U.S.
4 a native or inhabitant of any country of North, Central, or South America
5 the English language as spoken or written in the United States
[end quote]
I would predict that other British dictionaries which follow the popular tradition would similarly treat the words "America" and "American."
> I suspect our difference of opinion here has more to do with the fact that my > shirt was manufactured in England than whether it is stuffed or not.
 Signature Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Gwilym Calon - 08 Jan 2004 01:15 GMT > I know that Andrew Davidson has abandoned the discussion. It's too bad he > won't have the chance to learn that he is wrong. (I briefly considered > e-mailing him a copy of this post, but decided against it.) Under 'America' meaning 2 seems to support what Davidson wrote.
>2 Also called: *the Americas* the American continent, including North, > South, and Central America Under 'American' meanings 2 & 4 seem also to support Davidson
>2 of or relating to the American continent >4 a native or inhabitant of any country of North, Central, or South > America Other than that its a good call
------------------- GC
Raymond S. Wise - 08 Jan 2004 03:15 GMT > > I know that Andrew Davidson has abandoned the discussion. It's too bad he > > won't have the chance to learn that he is wrong. (I briefly considered [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Other than that its a good call I was quite aware that "America" is used to mean "the Americas" in some parts of the world--The matter has often been discussed in alt.usage.english . As I said in my post, addressing Andrew Davidson, "It is quite easy to prove that you are wrong about the 'America'-as-a-synonym-for-'USA' meaning not being the prevailing one in the UK." It was *that* point which I was addressing in my post.
 Signature Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Robert Bannister - 06 Jan 2004 23:56 GMT > I've got through just fine so far. I'm clear that there is "South America" and > "North America" - together they form the landmass known as "The Americas" or > "America" and near the top of that land mass is a group of inhabitants who think > they are alone on this planet (or at least behave that way). Is this a joke about Canadians or Inuits?
>> If you present >>yourself at the Aserca Airlines desk and try to book a ticket to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Not so - I've done something very similar - I actually asked for my > destination - who requests an airline ticket to a continent? Not a ticket perhaps, but I can well imagine going to a travel agent's and announcing "I want to go to America next month. Have you got any special deals?"
 Signature Rob Bannister
Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 17:18 GMT > Not a ticket perhaps, but I can well imagine going to a travel agent's > and announcing "I want to go to America next month. Have you got any > special deals?" I thought I'd test this, so I phoned my local travel agent and asked exactly that question - quick as a flash came the reply "North or South?".
 Signature Andrew Davidson
R F - 07 Jan 2004 19:37 GMT > > Not a ticket perhaps, but I can well imagine going to a travel agent's > > and announcing "I want to go to America next month. Have you got any > > special deals?" > > I thought I'd test this, so I phoned my local travel agent and asked exactly > that question - quick as a flash came the reply "North or South?". I don't believe you.
I've heard too many British persons use "America" and "American" in the AmE way to find your report believable.
You *may* be telling the truth, but I don't believe it.
Ross Howard - 07 Jan 2004 19:47 GMT >> > Not a ticket perhaps, but I can well imagine going to a travel agent's >> > and announcing "I want to go to America next month. Have you got any [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >You *may* be telling the truth, but I don't believe it. I'd believe it -- provided his travel agent was called Manolo Rodriguez.
-- Ross Howard
Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 20:16 GMT > I don't believe you. I don't believe you - I believe that you do believe me. Unbelievable isn't it?
My stance is that all debate is pointless without truth - An experiment was proposed and conducted - I reported the outcome. It may or may not be repeatable.
It is clear that you "Americans" believe that you own that term - further, you clearly believe that your stance is "universally accepted". I, however believe neither of these things - but I do believe that the debate cannot have a satisfactory conclusion. My involvement in this discussion is therefore ended.
 Signature Andrew Davidson
Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2004 22:39 GMT >> I don't believe you. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >clearly believe that your stance is "universally accepted". I, however believe >neither of these things No, we don't believe we own the term, but we - or some of us - recognize that the term has universal meaning. Our belief is not based on proprietary aspects, but rather on simple observation of how the term is used. We do not desire or insist that the term be used to mean the United States, but we recognize that it does.
>but I do believe that the debate cannot have a >satisfactory conclusion. My involvement in this discussion is therefore ended. You are not leaving the field with honor. It is more of a sulking slink off.
Enrico C - 08 Jan 2004 02:28 GMT <snip>
> I've got through just fine so far. I'm clear that there is "South America" and > "North America" - together they form the landmass known as "The Americas" Indeed. And the adjective is...
American
"of or relating to or characteristic of the continents and islands of the Americas (Example: "The American hemisphere")"
From Onelook.com's Quick definitions
American
1 noun: a native or inhabitant of a North American or Central American or South American country
2 noun: a native or inhabitant of the United States
3 noun: the English language as used in the United States
4 of or relating to or characteristic of the continents and islands of the Americas (Example: "The American hemisphere")"
5 adjective: of or relating to the United States of America or its people or language or culture (Example: "American citizens")
6 name: A surname (very rare: popularity rank in the U.S.: #88555)
Fup2 alt.usage.english
 Signature Enrico C ~ No native speaker
John Dawkins - 07 Jan 2004 21:33 GMT > > The post is about as serious as the idea of a Peruvian thinking he is > > an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > dwellers > on that continent to also use the name. I wonder if your take on this issue is widely held even in your neck of the woods. A check of the last 25 articles appearing in the online version of a randomly chosen UK newspaper (The Independent---how representative is this rag?) shows a usage of "America" and "American" that is decidedly American. Perhaps, for reasons unguessable by me, they too are using simple language when talking about (and not just to) us "Yanks".
 Signature J.
Molly Mockford - 05 Jan 2004 18:43 GMT >I thank you for the explanation although I was well aware of all of >it. My post was just a little spoofing. A resident of any of the UK >countries other than England recognizes a monarch that is Queen of a >different place. She is called the Queen of England and not the Queen >of Scotland, or Wales, or..... Before you explain, that too is a >spoof and I am aware of her full title. And, presumably, of the fact that it was the royal house of Scotland which took over England, rather than vice versa. However, the current incumbent should really be known as Queen Elizabeth the 1st of Scotland and 2nd of England, along the lines of the Stuart monarchs. (No names in between have led to any discrepancy in numbering.)
 Signature Molly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
Ross Howard - 05 Jan 2004 19:19 GMT >>I thank you for the explanation although I was well aware of all of >>it. My post was just a little spoofing. A resident of any of the UK [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >and 2nd of England, along the lines of the Stuart monarchs. (No names >in between have led to any discrepancy in numbering.) Would "Elizabeth the Last of England and Scotland" solve all problems -- of numbering or otherwise?
-- Ross Howard
Peter Duncanson - 05 Jan 2004 20:29 GMT >>>I thank you for the explanation although I was well aware of all of >>>it. My post was just a little spoofing. A resident of any of the UK [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Would "Elizabeth the Last of England and Scotland" solve all problems >-- of numbering or otherwise? "Elizabeth the Last of England and Scotland, and the First of The European Union"?
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Robert Bannister - 05 Jan 2004 23:50 GMT >>>So you are not a resident of the United Kingdom? A small land mass >>>that is known - in parts - by various other names? A place where the [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence. > And that was the subject that generated my reply. Only last night, I read a book in which the Incas were described as "Native Americans".
 Signature Rob Bannister
Tony Cooper - 06 Jan 2004 00:51 GMT >> The post is about as serious as the idea of a Peruvian thinking he is >> an American in any sense of the word that has any bit of credence. >> And that was the subject that generated my reply. > >Only last night, I read a book in which the Incas were described as >"Native Americans". The Incas, the Dinkas, and the Doos were the three founding tribes of America.
Peter Duncanson - 05 Jan 2004 13:51 GMT >> So you are not a resident of the United Kingdom? A small land mass >> that is known - in parts - by various other names? A place where the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Your sentence about "Queen of a different place" is confusing, and does not >describe any situation I recocognise within the UK. She is also seaparetly Queen of Australia, Queen of Canada, Queen of Papua New Guinea, Queen of New Zealand, and other independent countries[1]. In fact if the UK decided to cease to be a monarchy, she could continue being Queen of those other countries if they wished her to.
[1] Other independent countries of which she is independently Queen: Antigua and Barbuda The Bahamas Barbados Belize Jamaica Solomon Islands St. Kitts and Nevis St. Lucia St. Vincent and the Grenadines Tuvalu
These countries each freely chose to keep the Queen as Head of State when they became independent.
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Peter Duncanson - 05 Jan 2004 13:54 GMT >She is also seaparetly Queen of Apologies for the typo!
Perhaps "seaparetly" describes places that are separated by sea.
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Andrew Davidson - 05 Jan 2004 14:06 GMT > She is also seaparetly Queen of Australia, Queen of Canada, Queen of Papua > New Guinea, Queen of New Zealand, and other independent countries[1]. In [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > St. Vincent and the Grenadines > Tuvalu You forgot: Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isle of Man.
 Signature Andrew Davidson
Peter Duncanson - 05 Jan 2004 15:53 GMT >> She is also seaparetly Queen of Australia, Queen of Canada, Queen of Papua >> New Guinea, Queen of New Zealand, and other independent countries[1]. In [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >You forgot: Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isle of Man. I thought of them but they are not fully independent states. Nome of them is a member of the Commonwealth or of the United Nations.
Isle of Man: http://www.gov.im/cso/crown/office_gov.xml <quote> The Queen is the United Kingdom's Head of State and is also the Lord of Mann. ... The Lieutenant Governor has many different duties to perform and derives his powers directly from the Crown, from United Kingdom Acts of Parliament in respect of certain specific functions (e.g. Nationality and Immigration); and from Acts of Tynwald or Customary Law. </quote>
also: http://www.gov.im/deptindex/FR_CheckParents.asp?article=sectoral.html <quote> The United Kingdom is the Island's principal neighbour and is constitutionally responsible for the Island's international relations. </quote>
Jersey: http://www.gov.je/government/govassembly.asp <quote> Constitutionally, Jersey is a dependency of the Crown, owing allegiance to the Sovereign, but without incorporation into the United Kingdom. Jersey is self-governing in internal matters, but the UK Government is responsible for defence, overseas representation and international affairs generally. </quote>
Guernsey: No information of the website, but I understand its status is similar to that of Jersey. http://www.gov.gg/
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Molly Mockford - 05 Jan 2004 18:50 GMT >> She is also seaparetly Queen of (snip)
>You forgot: Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isle of Man. And of course Sark, which is held by the Seigneur in fief direct from the Queen herself (although usually the Privy Council act for her in this).
 Signature Molly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
Matthew Huntbach - 13 Jan 2004 10:19 GMT In uk.culture.language.english Andrew Davidson <andrew@cyber-home.net> wrote:
> "Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message
>> She is also seaparetly Queen of Australia, Queen of Canada, Queen of Papua >> New Guinea, Queen of New Zealand, and other independent countries[1]. In [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> St. Vincent and the Grenadines >> Tuvalu
> You forgot: Jersey, Guernsey, and the Isle of Man. Mr Duncanson has also missed a number of other Carribean countries where Elizabeth is still Queen - Grenada and Dominica for sure and I think there are some others.
Matthew Huntbach
Peter Duncanson - 13 Jan 2004 12:39 GMT >In uk.culture.language.english Andrew Davidson <andrew@cyber-home.net> wrote: >> "Peter Duncanson" <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Matthew Huntbach I was using the list of Commonwealth members on the Commonwealth Secretariat website http://www.thecommonwealth.org/dynamic/Country.asp
Yes. I missed Grenada, but Dominica is a republic - President HE Dr Nicholas J.O. Liverpool.
Elizabeth is also Queen of various non-independent countries: the UK's Overseas Territories.
From "FAQs: About the OTs" http://www.fco.gov.uk/servlet/Front?pagename=OpenMarket/Xcelerate/ShowPage&c=Pag e&cid=1033062364306 <quote> There are 14 UK Overseas Territories. Anguilla, Bermuda, British Antarctic Territory (BAT), British Indian Ocean Territory (BIOT), British Virgin Islands (BVI), Cayman Islands, Falkland Islands, Gibraltar, Montserrat, Pitcairn Islands, St Helena and its Dependencies (Ascension Island and Tristan da Cunha), South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands, the Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia in Cyprus and The Turks & Caicos Islands (TCI). </quote>
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Matthew Huntbach - 13 Jan 2004 13:08 GMT In uk.culture.language.english Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>>Mr Duncanson has also missed a number of other Carribean countries >>where Elizabeth is still Queen - Grenada and Dominica for sure and I >>think there are some others.
> I was using the list of Commonwealth members on the Commonwealth Secretariat > website [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Elizabeth is also Queen of various non-independent countries: the UK's > Overseas Territories. OK. I've just come back from Grenada and noted that QEII was still very much Head of State there, have seen similar in St Lucia, and assumed Dominica was the same. I was thinking in terms of all the countries that use the East Carribean Dollar, which has the Queen's portrait on the coins and banknotes, and Dominica certainly does use the ECD. Monserrat does as well, but I didn't include it because I was pretty sure (and you confirmed) it isn't independent.
Matthew Huntbach
Mike Stevens - 05 Jan 2004 15:02 GMT > >Your sentence about "Queen of a different place" is confusing, and does not > >describe any situation I recocognise within the UK. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > These countries each freely chose to keep the Queen as Head of State when > they became independent. Not to mention the Channel Islands, which have never been part of the UK, but if which the Queen is Head of State. That's because they are the last remains of the Duchy of Normandy. Incidentally the three leopards arms nowadays ascribed to England were originally those of the Duchy of Normandy.
The Isle of Man is also not part of the UK, although our Queen is also the Lord of Man.
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Don't you just hate rhetorical questions?
John Estill - 04 Jan 2004 20:27 GMT I just came across this message from "John Holmes" <holmes@smart.net.au>, which has been sitting on alt.usage.english since Sun, 4 Jan 2004 10:56:08 +1100.
>>>> When I accompanied my friend Juan Hernadez, who holds dual >>>> citizenship, to Mexico, he advised me not to say that I was an [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >poster from Brazil said something along the same lines here a few months >ago. As the husband of a Mexican woman, I can further confirm that Mexicans think of themselves as Americans -- well, as "americanos"-- and even as North Americans. I have traveled to Honduras; Hondurans, too, think of themselves as Americans. I haven't been to South America yet, but the Argentineans and Venezuelans I hear from on the net insist that they are also Americans.
Regards, John
 Signature John Estill Millersburg, Ohio USA
John Holmes - 06 Jan 2004 12:53 GMT > I just came across this message from "John Holmes" > <holmes@smart.net.au>, which has been sitting on alt.usage.english [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > yet, but the Argentineans and Venezuelans I hear from on the net > insist that they are also Americans. Thanks, John.
I just want to add here that I hope this doesn't reopen the entire can of worms about usage of the word American. The last several times it has come up it has generated far more heat than light, and I think the usage situation is fairly well summed up in the FAQ entry that Donna has posted.
It was worth noting, however, what you and Hank said because there seemed to be quite a few people who doubted that previously, and it isn't the kind of thing that it is easy to find documentary evidence about.
-- Regards John
Molly Mockford - 07 Jan 2004 08:26 GMT >I just want to add here that I hope this doesn't reopen the entire can >of worms about usage of the word American. The last several times it has >come up it has generated far more heat than light, and I think the usage >situation is fairly well summed up in the FAQ entry that Donna has >posted. I don't see what the problem is. The continental mass is America. The inhabitants of the United States are Merkins - or, in modern parlance, muhfu - oops - muhfellah Merkins.
 Signature Molly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
Mike Lyle - 07 Jan 2004 16:43 GMT [...] [in her sig] I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be!
I've checked with the talkative navy-blue cat under my chair, and she says he's right.
Mike.
Andrew Davidson - 07 Jan 2004 17:14 GMT > I don't see what the problem is. The continental mass is America. The > inhabitants of the United States are Merkins - or, in modern parlance, > muhfu - oops - muhfellah Merkins. Brilliant (and incisive).
Ladies and Gentlemen - we have a winner.......
The prize goes to Molly Mockford
 Signature Andrew Davidson
GEO - 07 Jan 2004 14:02 GMT >.. about usage of the word American. ... the usage >situation is fairly well summed up in the FAQ entry that Donna has >posted. I can't seem to find the FAQ. If someone could kindly post the address to that FAQ, I would be grateful.
Geo
Donna Richoux - 08 Jan 2004 23:17 GMT > >.. about usage of the word American. ... the usage > >situation is fairly well summed up in the FAQ entry that Donna has > >posted. > > I can't seem to find the FAQ. If someone could kindly post the > address to that FAQ, I would be grateful. The big FAQ and additional documents are at the AUE Website: http://www.alt-usage-english.org/
The entry in question appears in Intro C.
 Signature Best -- Donna Richoux
Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Jan 2004 17:51 GMT > As the husband of a Mexican woman, I can further confirm that > Mexicans think of themselves as Americans -- well, as "americanos"-- > and even as North Americans. That's interesting. When this came up before, I asked some Mexican co-workers, and they were unanimous that if they heard somebody refered to as a "norteamericano", they would assume that the person was from the US. (And not Los Estados Unidos Mexicanos, either--an "estadounidense" is also from the USA.) Yes, Mexico is part of "América del Norte" (as it's part of North America in English), but the terms referring to people, were seen to be exclusively meaning "US". "Americano" as an adjective might well mean "North or South American, as opposed typically to European", but "norteamericanos" are more specific. They were also unanimous in saying that in *English*, somebody described as an "American" would be assumed by them to be from the US.
> I have traveled to Honduras; Hondurans, too, think of themselves as > Americans. I haven't been to South America yet, but the > Argentineans and Venezuelans I hear from on the net insist that they > are also Americans. If you get to South America, ask the Colombians or Brazilians who live near the equator whether they're "ecuatorianos", too, or whether it's okay that the Ecuadorians have usurped the word.
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R F - 01 Jan 2004 18:17 GMT > > The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to > > "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second > > term has made the first term problematic, especially in speech. > > I think some of us right-pondians need a bit of explanation of that > distinction. The term "Native American" is an increasingly-used politically correct term for "American Indian". (I think also the increase in the number of East Indian persons in the US has aided the growth of "Native American".) A "native American", at one time at least, would have been understood to mean a "native-born American" -- someone born in "America" (roughly, the US regarded in poetic, romantic, non-political terms).
Richard Maurer - 02 Jan 2004 01:18 GMT << [Raymond S. Wise] The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to "Native American." However, the increase in the use of the second term has made the first term problematic, especially in speech. [end quote] >>
<< [Mike Stevens] I think some of us right-pondians need a bit of explanation of that distinction. [end quote] >>
<< [R F] The term "Native American" is an increasingly-used politically correct term for "American Indian". (I think also the increase in the number of East Indian persons in the US has aided the growth of "Native American".) A "native American", at one time at least, would have been understood to mean a "native-born American" -- someone born in "America" (roughly, the US regarded in poetic, romantic, non-political terms). [end quote] >>
There was also recently a distinction made along the same lines between "native American" and "American native". I don't like it, but will mention it for the benefit of those right-pondians who might be caught unaware. I prefer the term "hundredth generation American", but it will probably not catch on. The "Native Americans" around here that I hear use the term "Indians" to refer to themselves.
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Mike Stevens - 02 Jan 2004 02:12 GMT > << [Raymond S. Wise] > The term "native American" does not have an identical meaning to "Native [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > not catch on. The "Native Americans" around here that I hear use > the term "Indians" to refer to themselves. I have a good friend who is a Native American with whom I was once discussing the preferred description (I was still using "Amerind", which dates me!). She said she preferred simply to call herself a "native" until I pointed out that we were having the conversation in London (UK), where she certainly *wasn't* a native.
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.yk Old grammarians never die, they simply parse away.
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 02 Jan 2004 02:24 GMT > "English [...] 5. also english a. The spin given to a propelled ball by > striking it on one side or releasing it with a sharp twist. b. Bodily > movement in an effort to influence the movement of a propelled object; body > English." Assuming this relates to billiards (and by extension to snooker and pool), the word used in BrEnglish is "side" (or, in extreme instances, "screw").
 Signature Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
Tony Mountifield - 03 Jan 2004 16:49 GMT > > "English [...] 5. also english a. The spin given to a propelled ball by > > striking it on one side or releasing it with a sharp twist. b. Bodily [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > pool), the word used in BrEnglish is "side" (or, in extreme instances, > "screw"). No, "screw" is back-spin and "side" is left- or right-spin. Neither is an extreme instance of the other, although it is possible to apply both at the same time.
Cheers, Tony
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Raymond S. Wise - 30 Dec 2003 06:35 GMT > > > <snip> > > > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language", > which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".) Not where I come from (the state of Illinois, USA). When I had "English class" in school, British English was rarely the subject of the class and English English was a term I have read only in recent years. The following is from *The Oxford Companion to the English Language* by Tom McArthur, (C) 1992, from a post I previously wrote for alt.usage.english :
See http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ufoodpccscef2a%40corp.supernews.com&output= gplain
or
http://tinyurl.com/36pdh
[begin quote from Usenet post]
British English short form _BrE_
[...]
_Precision of reference._ [...] The English sociolinguist Peter Trudgill has observed: 'My own preferred label for varieties of English from England is "English English", by analogy with "American English", "Australian English" etc.... Note that, whatever label is used, we have been careful in this book to distinguish between the terms "English English" and "British English". The latter is often used in literature, particularly, it seems, by Americans and writers on English as a foreign language, where it is really the former that is intended' (Introduction, _Language in the British Isles,_ 1984).
Kinds of British English.
It is not, however, surprising that the term _English English_ is not widely used. To the English it seems as tautologous or as silly and inelegant as 'German German' and 'French French', whether or not there may be grounds for using those names, as for example to distinguish German in Germany from Austrian German and French in France from Quebec French. However, to many Scots, Irish, and Welsh people, and to others with comparable perspectives, some such term is essential to allow an explicit and productive contrast among the British varieties of English. Equally, however, the term _Scottish English_ can seem odd to English and Scots alike, because of the ethnic sense of the word 'English': _Scottish English_ seems a contradiction in terms. Similarly, the term _Irish English_ may seem bizarre, both because of centuries-old connotations of illogic and whimsy acquired by the word _Irish_ and because of the hostility of many in Ireland towards anything that links them too closely with England.
[end quote from Usenet post]
 Signature Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Mike Lyle - 30 Dec 2003 13:33 GMT [...]
> http://tinyurl.com/36pdh > > [begin quote from Usenet post] [...]
> It is not, however, surprising that the term _English English_ is not widely > used. To the English it seems as tautologous or as silly and inelegant as [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > [end quote from Usenet post] It's clear enough where your older post was "coming from", and I come from much the same spot myself; but I must say I find it a little speculative, or perhaps slightly exaggerated. Clearly the expression "English English" sounds tautologous; but I've never met anybody who didn't understand its usefulness, nor anybody who didn't readily accept expressions such as "Welsh English" (though "Hiberno-English" is quite often used rather than "Irish English", I think more for North-South clarity than from any hostility to England). I don't think anybody could regard the formula as a contradiction in terms.
In my experience a problem arises only when it's suggested that Scots is a dialect of English. Scots seems to be a dialect only in the sense in which English is a dialect; but even with that proviso sensitivity exists because some people perceive the word "dialect" to mean something like "sub-standard version". Scots is, of course, not the same thing as Scottish English; but not many in England seem to know.
I often use "European English" to embrace the Irish and British standard written and formal spoken versions, which are largely indistinguishable, and to exclude ANZ etc non-American forms, though they in turn are nearly indistinguishable from European usage.
Mike.
Einde O'Callaghan - 30 Dec 2003 10:24 GMT <snip>
> (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language", > which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".) I would define it as the "the language that originated in England". For better or worse the vast majority of native English speakers do not come from England and even in england the majority of people don't speak English with the so-called Received Pronunciation.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Alan Edgey - 30 Dec 2003 10:26 GMT David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message
<snip>
> Whereas in English English (i.e. the English language of England), the > domicile of {R} excepted, "may" is entirely outmoded and "can" rules > supreme. Just one more step on the road to the pidgeon English to be > used in the uppermost floor of the tower of Babel. I didn't know pidgeons could speak. Thanks for your contribution to the development of 'pidgin' English for the uppermost floor of the tower of Babel. This is, by the way, a long term project which has been going on as long as humans can speak. <snip>
> (Don't forget that "English" is shorthand for "the English language", > which in turn is shorthand for "the language used in England".) Surely when 'English' is used to refer to the Language it includes any variety anywhere?
Alan
David - 30 Dec 2003 19:56 GMT > David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message
> <snip>
> > Whereas in English English (i.e. the English language of England), > > the domicile of {R} excepted, "may" is entirely outmoded and "can" > > rules supreme. Just one more step on the road to the pidgeon > > English to be used in the uppermost floor of the tower of Babel.
> I didn't know pidgeons could speak. Thanks for your contribution to > the development of 'pidgin' English for the uppermost floor of the > tower of Babel. "Pidgeon", also "pigeon" or "pidgin", is thought to be a Chinese corruption of the word "business", as any good English dictionary should tell you.
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Alan Edgey - 31 Dec 2003 16:32 GMT > > David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > corruption of the word "business", as any good English dictionary > should tell you. Fair enough;-)
I still can't figure how varying use of can and may is leading to pidginisation though. Language changes over time. You are simply witnessing this in progress. Once upon a time pedants used to find lots of what we now consider correct barbarisms.
In the end it is the users of language who decide what is acceptable and not language mavens - no matter how loud they might bleat - or should that be may bleat?
Alan
David - 31 Dec 2003 17:55 GMT > I still can't figure how varying use of can and may is leading to > pidginisation though. Language changes over time. You are simply > witnessing this in progress. > Once upon a time pedants used to find lots of what we now consider > correct barbarisms.
> In the end it is the users of language who decide what is acceptable > and not language mavens - no matter how loud they might bleat - or > should that be may bleat? I was merely musing that useful difference of meaning is becoming subsumed in this age of mass communication and universal semi-literacy.
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Jeffrey Zahn - 31 Dec 2003 22:17 GMT In article news:2d2028d5.0312310832.2e70d4e5@posting.google.com, AlanEdgey@aol.com (Alan Edgey) wrote:
> Once upon a time pedants used to find lots of what we now > consider correct barbarisms. As opposed to incorrect barbarisms, I suppose.
 Signature Jeffrey "Pendantry" Zahn
David - 31 Dec 2003 23:09 GMT > In article > news:2d2028d5.0312310832.2e70d4e5@posting.google.com, > AlanEdgey@aol.com (Alan Edgey) wrote:
> > Once upon a time pedants used to find lots of what we now > > consider correct barbarisms.
> As opposed to incorrect barbarisms, I suppose. Like "Something for the weekend, sir?"
Sorry, couldn't resist it. HNY!
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Mike Stevens - 01 Jan 2004 08:46 GMT >>> David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Once upon a time pedants used to find lots of what we now consider > correct barbarisms. That's certainly true,but is no reason to prevent some of us from regretting those bits of linguistic change which reduce the subtlety and range of the language.
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.yk Old grammarians never die, they simply parse away.
hsinatra - 01 Jan 2004 23:14 GMT I agree, and so does Francis Bacon: "The ill and unfit choice of words wonderfully obstructs the understanding."
Hank
> >>> David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message > >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > web site www.mike-stevens.co.yk > Old grammarians never die, they simply parse away. Mike Lyle - 31 Dec 2003 13:30 GMT > David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Surely when 'English' is used to refer to the Language it includes any > variety anywhere? Of course it does. "English" just isn't a short form of "the language used in England" -- and, as somebody pointed out, it didn't start with that meaning; though clearly it *did* mean that for a few hundred years. "Latin" hasn't meant "the language spoken in Latium" for some time, either; further examples would be pointless.
As early as about 1850 Grimm (of Law and fairy-tale fame) predicted that English would become "international property".
Mike.
Mike Stevens - 31 Dec 2003 15:54 GMT > "English" just isn't a short form of "the language > used in England" -- and, as somebody pointed out, it didn't start with > that meaning; though clearly it *did* mean that for a few hundred > years. Just so. The word English for the language predates the name England for the place. King Alfred writes of the English language,although he was King of Wessex, one of several kingdoms which later (with a lot of Viking involvement) coalesced to form England. In fact it's probably true to say that the first King of England was the Norseman Cnut.
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Old teachers never die, they simply lose their class.
David - 31 Dec 2003 18:04 GMT > > "English" just isn't a short form of "the language used in > > England" -- and, as somebody pointed out, it didn't start with that > > meaning; though clearly it *did* mean that for a few hundred years.
> Just so. The word English for the language predates the name England > for the place. King Alfred writes of the English language,although > he was King of Wessex, one of several kingdoms which later (with a > lot of Viking involvement) coalesced to form England. In fact it's > probably true to say that the first King of England was the Norseman > Cnut. "English" (or its original form) might predate "England" but a thousand years later, the Angles were forgotten by all but a few dozen historians and "English" was certainly widely seen as the adjective describing things of England, one of which was its tongue. I still say that by the middle of the last millennium, the "English" of "the English tongue" had for most precisely the same meaning as the "English" of "the English parliament" or "the English garden". And were it not for the fact that English colonialism (there we have it again!) exported its tongue to other lands, "English" would be seen in the same light as other languages named for their geographical or political base.
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Mike Stevens - 01 Jan 2004 08:56 GMT > "English" (or its original form) might predate "England" but a > thousand years later, the Angles were forgotten by all but a few dozen > historians. That's simply not true. The Angles were certainly part of the common currency of popular English history rather than known only to a small academic elite. The story of "non Anglii sed Angeli" was a common-place of popular mythology - at least in the Church of England.
> And > were it not for the fact that English colonialism (there we have it > again!) exported its tongue to other lands, "English" would be seen > in the same light as other languages named for their geographical or > political base. And colonialism didn't have analogous results for any other language? Really!
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
"I'm not an old fart, and I'm not an old bore, Or a grumpy old b*gg*r like Evelyn Waugh" (Christopher Matthew)
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 02 Jan 2004 02:24 GMT > I didn't know pidgeons could speak. That with the first name "Walter" could :-)
 Signature Brian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919
mUs1Ka - 02 Jan 2004 13:26 GMT >> I didn't know pidgeons could speak. > > That with the first name "Walter" could :-) And Steven Seagull. m.
Mike Stevens - 30 Dec 2003 15:40 GMT >>>> The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for >>>> something. >>> >>>> "Can" is strictly to be used to determine if something is >>>> possible.
>>> Don't people use "can" both ways, nowadays? >>> >>> So, I wonder, how does that usage sound to "learned ears"? >>> Colloquial? Working-class? Just wrong? I'd say it sounds careless.
>> I consider it informal Standard American English--it would not be >> remarkable, for example, to see a newspaper columnist use it. It's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > supreme. Just one more step on the road to the pidgeon English to be > used in the uppermost floor of the tower of Babel. I think that overstates the case. What you say is probably true for UK demotic speech, but for educated speech and writing the distinction between "can" and "may" is still alive, if in rather poor health.
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.yk Old grammarians never die, they simply parse away.
arachedeux - 30 Dec 2003 02:57 GMT > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > So, I wonder, how does that usage sound to "learned ears"? > Colloquial? Working-class? Just wrong? Just wrong. Although if English isn't your mother tongue it would be bad manners to point it out. cheers,
Dr Robin Bignall - 31 Dec 2003 16:05 GMT ><snip> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Don't people use "can" both ways, nowadays? They do, but Richard is right, strictly speaking. Playful grandparents might indulge in the following: Child: Can I turn the TV on? GP: Probably, if your fingers still work and you know which button to press. C: May I turn the TV on. GP: Of course.
 Signature wrmst rgrds Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire England
Robert Bannister - 01 Jan 2004 00:31 GMT >><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > C: May I turn the TV on. > GP: Of course. The whole point being that (a) children have to be forced to do this, (b) only children find themselves in the position of having to say "May I" - in any other situation, one would paraphrase with some nonsense like "Wouldn't it be better if we..."
 Signature Rob Bannister
Aaron J. Dinkin - 30 Dec 2003 02:59 GMT > The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for > something. > > "Can" is strictly to be used to determine if something is possible. So "may" is never used as in "It may be the case that what you say it true"?
-Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom
Voicer - 30 Dec 2003 08:34 GMT > > The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for > > something. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > -Aaron J. Dinkin > Dr. Whom North American usage, apparently influenced by the speech style on the Seinfeld TV show, is now almost entirely "can" rather than "may." Also : "get" has replaced "have."
At McDonald's, it's now: "Can I get a burger with fries?" This does not mean the customer is questioning whether he is capable of finding his own food.
It sounds awful but why fight it?
Enrico C - 30 Dec 2003 08:49 GMT > At McDonald's, it's now: "Can I get a burger with fries?" snip
> It sounds awful but why fight it? To reduce cholesterol? ;)
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Aaron J. Dinkin - 30 Dec 2003 14:48 GMT > Also : "get" has replaced "have." > > At McDonald's, it's now: "Can I get a burger with fries?" > This does not mean the customer is questioning whether he is capable of > finding his own food. No, it means the customer is inquiring whether it's possible ("can") for him to purchase ("get") the food he wants. "Get" doesn't mean 'find'; it means 'come into possession of'. I'm not sure what your problem with the example sentence is.
(Actually, he's not inquiring whether it's possible; he knows that it is. He's making a polite request, in the form of such an inquiry.)
-Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom
Mike Stevens - 30 Dec 2003 15:46 GMT > Also : "get" has replaced "have." > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It sounds awful but why fight it? I wonder if that's actually a new use or rather a throw-back to an earlier usage. In UK English the verb "get" can quite properly be used to mean "be given" as in "For Christmas I got a lot of presents.", which is, I estimate, at least as well-used as "For Christmas I had a lot of presents.".
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk
"I'm not an old fart, and I'm not an old bore, Or a grumpy old b*gg*r like Evelyn Waugh" (Christopher Matthew)
Mike Lyle - 30 Dec 2003 20:52 GMT > > Also : "get" has replaced "have." > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > is, I estimate, at least as well-used as "For Christmas I had a lot of > presents.". I assumed when I first heard it that it was a discreet way of suggesting that the asker was quite prepared to fetch it or pay for it himself, when "Can I have a cup of coffee?" might be taken as a presumptuous request. Then, because new phrases catch on, especially from the lips of notables, it spread out of control to situations where it had no special significance.
We have no hesitation in understanding, e.g., "Can we get a coffee?" as "Shall we go and have some coffee?"; or "Where can I get a drink?" as "Where's the pub/bar?"
Mike.
Tony Mountifield - 31 Dec 2003 09:34 GMT > > Also : "get" has replaced "have." > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > is, I estimate, at least as well-used as "For Christmas I had a lot of > presents.". An interesting US-ism the other way round with regard to "get":
In the UK, I might ask someone "Have you got a car?", and they might reply "Yes, I have." However, I have asked an identically constructed question of an American and they replied "Yes, I do." Do??? Then I realised they had heard the question as "Do you have a car?" and replied to that perceived question.
Cheers, Tony
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Skitt - 31 Dec 2003 18:34 GMT
>>> Also : "get" has replaced "have." >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Then I realised they had heard the question as "Do you have a car?" > and replied to that perceived question. You've got it!
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Phil C. - 31 Dec 2003 19:29 GMT >>>> Also : "get" has replaced "have." >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >You've got it! I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than one a year."
 Signature Phil C.
Mike Lyle - 31 Dec 2003 23:48 GMT > > >>>> Also : "get" has replaced "have." [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than > one a year." This is one of my favourite AUE perennials. Maybe you've missed the previous romps, Tony, so you might like to google the archive. I must say Phil's anecdote is the best take on it so far, though.
Mike.
Tony Mountifield - 01 Jan 2004 12:00 GMT > > I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American > > interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > previous romps, Tony, so you might like to google the archive. I must > say Phil's anecdote is the best take on it so far, though. Thanks, I haven't read AUE for quite a while; I'm reading this in UCLE.
Tony
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Dr Robin Bignall - 02 Jan 2004 00:40 GMT >> > I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American >> > interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Thanks, I haven't read AUE for quite a while; I'm reading this in UCLE. We're all one big, happy family, Tony, in the English newsgroups.
[Drat! Broke a New Year Resolution already. I resolved to be more serious in AUE.]
 Signature wrmst rgrds Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire England
Maria Conlon - 01 Jan 2004 00:10 GMT > I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American > interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than > one a year." What would the American interviewer have had to ask in order to get an answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother of?
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Peter Duncanson - 01 Jan 2004 02:19 GMT >> I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American >> interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother >of? "Do you have any children?" would work perfectly well with any British woman who was not looking for a chance to play with words.
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Truly Donovan - 01 Jan 2004 04:36 GMT >>What would the American interviewer have had to ask in order to get an >>answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother >>of? > >"Do you have any children?" would work perfectly well with any British woman >who was not looking for a chance to play with words. How does a question that is most correctly answered with a "yes" or "no" yield the number of children so encompassed?
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Peter Duncanson - 01 Jan 2004 12:01 GMT >>>What would the American interviewer have had to ask in order to get an >>>answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >How does a question that is most correctly answered with a "yes" or >"no" yield the number of children so encompassed? It seems I did not respond to the precise question asked by Maria Conlon.
I was making the point that the question asked by the American interviewer was perfectly satisfactory in BrE.
Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield the number of children, if any, without being potentially intrusive.
If a woman who has children is asked "Do you have any children?" she might respond with the number and other details. If she simply replies "Yes", the questioner has to judge by her tone of voice as to whether it is appropriate to seek further information.
[1] In a conversational context.
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Phil C. - 01 Jan 2004 12:47 GMT >>>>What would the American interviewer have had to ask in order to get an >>>>answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield the number >of children, if any, without being potentially intrusive. I suppose it could be argued that to ask the question at all might be considered intrusive in British culture. The degree to which we avoid personal questions certainly surprises my European friends.
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Dena Jo - 01 Jan 2004 15:53 GMT > Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield > the number of children, if any, without being potentially > intrusive. I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but then you Brits are probably more polite and less casual than us Yanks.
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R F - 01 Jan 2004 18:02 GMT > > Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield > > the number of children, if any, without being potentially > > intrusive. > > I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but > then you Brits are probably more polite and less casual than us Yanks. It's 'cause they live on an island.
Giles Todd - 01 Jan 2004 23:13 GMT > > I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but > > then you Brits are probably more polite and less casual than us Yanks. > > It's 'cause they live on an island. Not all of us.
Giles.
Peter Duncanson - 01 Jan 2004 18:20 GMT >> Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield >> the number of children, if any, without being potentially >> intrusive. > >I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but It would depend on the circumstances.
>then you Brits are probably more polite and less casual than us Yanks. A wide and wild generalization. :-)
We have some very impolite and some very causal Brits, and some who are both very impolite and very casual. Of course if you want a competition we could put your worst and our worst together on a small island somewhere with live TV streaming to the world. This could give us a reality TV show - "Slobs and Yobs" or some such title.
I googled to check that "Slobs and Yobs" was not in use and found this on the results page:
"... Ironically, the Americans I know are very aristocratic. We have become a nation of slobs and yobs, thugs and slugs. I am loyal to an England that has gone. ..." (Frustratingly the associated link is broken.)
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
John Hall - 02 Jan 2004 10:53 GMT >>I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >A wide and wild generalization. :-) Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New York City) tend to be more polite than the British.
 Signature John Hall "He crams with cans of poisoned meat The subjects of the King, And when they die by thousands G.K.Chesterton: Why, he laughs like anything." from "Song Against Grocers"
Dena Jo - 02 Jan 2004 15:03 GMT > Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New > York City) tend to be more polite than the British. That's interesting. After spending a year in England, when I returned home to Los Angeles, I thought everyone was rude to me. When I complained to someone about it, they responded, "But Dena, they were rude before you left!"
It took me a while to readjust.
 Signature Dena Jo
Delete "delete.this.for.email" for email.
R F - 02 Jan 2004 18:38 GMT > Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New > York City) tend to be more polite than the British. My experience has been that New York City Natives and Foreign-Born Immigrants are more polite than most Americans, who are (at least superficially) less polite than the non-hooligan British. The most impolite Americans are in the Upper Midwest. Not Chicago, as you might think, but Central Wisconsin.
Skitt - 02 Jan 2004 18:43 GMT >> Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New >> York City) tend to be more polite than the British. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > impolite Americans are in the Upper Midwest. Not Chicago, as you > might think, but Central Wisconsin. Well, they are pissed off because they live in Central Wisconsin.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/
rzed - 02 Jan 2004 20:12 GMT > >> Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New > >> York City) tend to be more polite than the British. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Well, they are pissed off because they live in Central Wisconsin. Not knowing what RF means by "Central Wisconsin," I can only assume that he's specifically referring to the residents of Portage, Marshfield, Wausau, Stevens Point, or the areas nearby to those places. By stretching the definition a little, we could imagine it to include areas as far afield as Tomah, Ripon (birthplace of the Republican Party), Medford, and Mole Lake. The combined population of the area is surely less than that of Brooklyn, NY (one of the larger boroughs in the City of New York). In other words, there's no "they" there.
None of the places were held to be particularly impolite when I were a lad in the Badger State (though near Tomah I once received a ticket for hitchhiking inappropriately, thereby demonstrating my own rudeness), so I would expect the people in the region to be about as polite as those in the rest of Wisconsin, all of whom I know I know to be reasonably affable and pleasant unless they are provoked.
Knowing that RF's statements are based exclusively on his direct personal experience, it seems obvious that there is an underlying story waiting to be told. I can speculate (though I'll leave most of that to Tony) about what circumstances might have brought about the uncharacteristic social transgression RF has in mind. Possibly it was due to his explaining that the accents he heard were incorrect because they did not participate in the Northern Exurban Consonant Elision or some such thing.
The people that live there (and, Skitt, they live there because they want to, for some reason) do have one curious quirk, though, and that is their antipathy to Illinois residents. Perhaps they misunderstood Richard's true situation. It could be as simple as that. RF, have you licensed that car of yours *with Illinois plates?* If so, no further explanation is needed.
-- rzed
Raymond S. Wise - 02 Jan 2004 19:58 GMT > > Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New > > York City) tend to be more polite than the British. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > impolite Americans are in the Upper Midwest. Not Chicago, as you might > think, but Central Wisconsin. But we're Upper Midwest also and we're Minnesota Nice(TM)!
 Signature Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Tony Cooper - 02 Jan 2004 22:01 GMT >> Yes. My own experience is that Americans (at any rate outside of New >> York City) tend to be more polite than the British. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >impolite Americans are in the Upper Midwest. Not Chicago, as you might >think, but Central Wisconsin. You could come away from Central Wisconsin with that impression. All you need do is strike up some conversations with Central Wisconsin residents with opening lines like:
"I suppose that you are one of those people that labor under the impression that what you are eating there is a sandwich."
"You look like one of those farmer-faced people who live in Chicago and think that you are from a real city."
"You call this pizza?"
"I suppose you're going to tell me you're a Midwesterner?"
"Oy!"
Robert Bannister - 02 Jan 2004 00:09 GMT >>Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield >>the number of children, if any, without being potentially >>intrusive. > > I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but > then you Brits are probably more polite and less casual than us Yanks. Depends on the age and whether the person's marital status is known. My answer to that question would have to be "None that I know of."
 Signature Rob Bannister
Dr Robin Bignall - 02 Jan 2004 00:46 GMT >> Offhand, I can't think of a simple question [1] that would yield >> the number of children, if any, without being potentially >> intrusive. > >I wouldn't have thought "How many children do you have?" intrusive, but >then you Brits are probably more polite and less casual than us Yanks. We probably are, Deej, but some of us work on it over several decades until we get to the point of being able to ask "How many children do you have, Deej?" without embarrassment, and with only the hint of a grin.
 Signature wrmst rgrds Robin Bignall
Quiet part of Hertfordshire England
Mike Lyle - 01 Jan 2004 13:59 GMT [...]
> >"Do you have any children?" would work perfectly well with any British woman > >who was not looking for a chance to play with words. > > How does a question that is most correctly answered with a "yes" or > "no" yield the number of children so encompassed? Peter's right, of course. But as we've mentioned before, British usage preserves the present-simple habitual force of "Do you have...?" and "I don't have..." as well as recognizing, and sometimes using, the "American" use in which these present-simple questions and negatives equate to the British "Have you got...?" and "I haven't got...".
I can't see that it would be *incorrect* to answer such questions with something other than "Yes" or "No".
Mike.
Mike Stevens - 01 Jan 2004 09:17 GMT >>> I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American >>> interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "Do you have any children?" would work perfectly well with any > British woman who was not looking for a chance to play with words. But "Have you got any children?" would be more idiomatic. Even though (I say, getting my retaliation in first) a pedant could possibly gloss this as "Have you begotten any children?", which would of course be a nonsense question to a woman.
-- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk "Million-to-one chances come up nine times out of ten." (Terry Pratchett)
david56 - 01 Jan 2004 11:46 GMT mike.fc2@which.net spake thus:
> >>> I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American > >>> interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > this as "Have you begotten any children?", which would of course be a > nonsense question to a woman. From The Last Goon Show of All (about 1974, I think), and from memory:
- Do you still have the same secretary?
- Yes, I still have her. Nobody's noticed.
 Signature David =====
Robert Bannister - 02 Jan 2004 00:05 GMT >>>I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American >>>interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "Do you have any children?" would work perfectly well with any British woman > who was not looking for a chance to play with words. You're surely not serious. True, if the woman was aware she was being spoken to by an American, she would make some effort to understand this to non-American ears, odd form of the question, but you must know perfectly well that "Have you (got)" is the preferred and less ambiguous form. "Do you" questions usually refer to habitual actions.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Matti Lamprhey - 02 Jan 2004 00:18 GMT "Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote...
> >>>I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American > >>>interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > perfectly well that "Have you (got)" is the preferred and less > ambiguous form. "Do you" questions usually refer to habitual actions. No -- Peter is quite right. "Do you have any children?" is the standard British version, with "Have you got any children?" positioned one subregister below it.
Matti
Peter Duncanson - 02 Jan 2004 00:34 GMT >>>>I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American >>>>interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >perfectly well that "Have you (got)" is the preferred and less ambiguous >form. "Do you" questions usually refer to habitual actions. I did not express an opinion as to whether "do you have" is the preferred form. I simply said that it would 'work' in the question "Do you have any children?" In that particular context the possibility of ambiguity is surely minimal, even zero.
This is not a point on which I feel strongly. I have no intention of heading out into the streets with clipboard to conduct an unscientific survey.
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Tony Mountifield - 01 Jan 2004 11:54 GMT > > I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American > > interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother > of? "Have you got (any) children?"
Tony
 Signature Tony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org
John A. Green - 02 Jan 2004 13:08 GMT >> I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American >> interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother >of? Possibly "Have you any children?" might persuade her to reply, "I have n childer." John
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-- John A Green Leigh, Lancashire & Aberdeen
Richard Kaulfuss - 02 Jan 2004 20:21 GMT >> I recall the British authoress who was asked by an American >> interviewer "Do you have any children?" and replied "Never more than [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >answer that revealed how many children the woman ... uh, was the mother >of? "Have you got any gets?"
 Signature Dick
Richard Maurer - 31 Dec 2003 05:10 GMT << [R] The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for something.
"Can" is strictly to be used to determine if something is possible.
Can that circus ride go backwards? May I have a go on that circus ride? [end quote] >>
But this is not as simple as it looks, especially if a third party is involved. Consider "Can you pick up a carton of milk on your way home from work?" where one adult makes a request of another. Also "Can I go on this ride Daddy?" where besides the permission of the parent, there are also the rules of the establishment to consider. It may be that they will not let the child go on the ride until he is 3 foot tall, even though the child is perfectly capable. In a poolside eatery "Can I get a margarita?" asks whether the system allows it; there is not a question of the waiter giving you permission.
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
{R} - 01 Jan 2004 01:35 GMT In uk.culture.language.english on Wed, 31 Dec 2003 05:10:11 GMT,
}<< [R] }The use of "may", in my house at least, is to seek permission for }something. } }"Can" is strictly to be used to determine if something is possible. } }Can that circus ride go backwards? }May I have a go on that circus ride? }[end quote] >> } }But this is not as simple as it looks, }especially if a third party is involved. Consider } "Can you pick up a carton of milk on your way home from work?"
Is that asking if "is it possible for you to ... or is it asking "Will you ....
}where one adult makes a request of another. Also } "Can I go on this ride Daddy?"
}where besides the permission of the parent, there are also }the rules of the establishment to consider. It may be that }they will not let the child go on the ride until he is 3 foot tall, }even though the child is perfectly capable.
Indeed so "can" should be used to inquire about possibility, whereas "may" is asking permission. }In a poolside eatery } "Can I get a margarita?" }asks whether the system allows it; there is not a question of }the waiter giving you permission.
Yes, but "May I have a ..." assumes that it is possible.
{R}
John Lawler - 30 Dec 2003 20:16 GMT >> "May" is used for this meaning too, just as it also expresses >> possibility. It is considered slightly more formal.
>Anyway, when I used *can* as less formal *may*, some native speakers >corrected me. Pay no attention; this is one of the foibles of English.
"May" and "can" are both 'possible' modals, contrasting with 'necessary' modals like "must", "should", and "will". One of the reasons why there have to be more than one 'possible' modal in a language (which hasn't yet been mentioned in this thread, and which is why I comment at this late date) is to provide a distinction between the two ways negation can combine with possibility.
'Not' and 'possible' are both logical operators with a scope (like quantifiers) and thus either can include the other in its scope. So 'possible (not (x))' is quite different from 'not (possible (x))', as their respective paraphrases show: 1) It's possible that he's not home. 2) It's not possible that he's home.
With modal auxiliaries, the plot thickens, because in English they have to be followed by negation, by strict syntactic rules.
3) *He doesn't may/can be home.
The solution, in the typical style of the Unconscious Generations, is to use two auxiliaries, one with inside scope when negated, and the other with outside scope.
4) He may not be home. = (1) 5) He can't be home. = (2)
That keeps them both around, and gives people a choice to make between them in the affirmative, where there is no such logical distinction between them. Naturally, people make such choices based on their own concepts, which arise and change without notice and don't agree much with one another. That doesn't matter; their utility in the negative keeps them distinct there, while their usage in the affirmative, like all great art, lies in the eye (or, in this case, ear) of the beholder.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler Michigan Linguistics Dept ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Language is the most massive and inclusive art we know, a - Edward Sapir mountainous and anonymous work of unconscious generations." 'Language'
Tony Mountifield - 31 Dec 2003 09:43 GMT > 3) *He doesn't may/can be home. I wondered if the * was put in anticipating the insertion of a footnote which was then forgotten, explaining that may and can can't really be used as infinitives.
I have always wondered why modal verbs in English do not have infinitive forms on the same stem. German has "können", "müssen", "dürfen", etc., but English cannot say "to can", "to must", "to may".
Cheers, Tony
 Signature Tony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org
Mike Lyle - 31 Dec 2003 14:25 GMT [...]
> I have always wondered why modal verbs in English do not have > infinitive forms on the same stem. German has "können", "müssen", > "dürfen", etc., but English cannot say "to can", "to must", "to may". Ain't spoke to many cowboys lately, then, pardner? Not present, I agree, but "Useta could" clearly contains an infinitive. As conversational spice I sometimes inject "I didn't use to couldn't".
Mike.
Tony Mountifield - 31 Dec 2003 15:52 GMT > [...] > > I have always wondered why modal verbs in English do not have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > agree, but "Useta could" clearly contains an infinitive. As > conversational spice I sometimes inject "I didn't use to couldn't". Hehe... interesting construct - a "past-tense infinitive"!
Tony
 Signature Tony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org
John Lawler - 31 Dec 2003 19:14 GMT >> 3) *He doesn't may/can be home.
>I wondered if the * was put in anticipating the insertion of a >footnote which was then forgotten, explaining that may and can >can't really be used as infinitives. The * is to mark the sentence as ungrammatical.
>I have always wondered why modal verbs in English do not have >infinitive forms on the same stem. German has "können", "müssen", >"dürfen", etc., but English cannot say "to can", "to must", "to may". Right. English modal auxiliaries, however, unlike German ones, are defective verbs and don't have any inflected forms, which includes infinitives (the infinitive inflection is -0 -- 'zero'), and therefore must always be the first auxiliary in any verb phrase they occur in.
That this is a recent development is shown by the German cognates and by the fact that many dialects of English allow multiple modal constructions ('might could, might should', etc.) and other idioms involving infinitives, like 'useta could'.
-John Lawler http://www.umich.edu/~jlawler Michigan Linguistics Dept ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "Language is the most massive and inclusive art we know, a - Edward Sapir mountainous and anonymous work of unconscious generations." 'Language'
Molly Mockford - 01 Jan 2004 13:57 GMT >Anyway, when I used *can* as less formal *may*, some native speakers >corrected me It tends to be assumed that non-native speakers want to learn correct English, rather than the sloppy version which many of us native speakers tend to employ. If you know what's the right usage, you then have the choice whether or not actually to use it.
>So, I mean, you never know. how to make everybody happy! >:-/ Happy New Year?
 Signature Molly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
Raymond S. Wise - 28 Dec 2003 00:57 GMT > "you must have liked it a lot". Make that "You must have liked it a lot."
> Is that sentence correct? And what does it means precisely? Yes, it is correct. The speaker (or writer) would be responding to another person who had related the story of something--the "it"--and who had seemed to like the thing or event in question. Most of the time, the speaker would be expecting the other person to agree that yes, he did like it.
For example:
John: When I first got a computer, I stayed up all night seeing what I could do with it.
Mary: You must have liked it [i.e., the computer] a lot.
John: Of course!
Or:
John: On my vacation, my brother and I went fishing every day.
Mary: You must have liked it [i.e. going fishing with his brother] a lot.
John: Sure. I wish we could do it every year.
 Signature Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA
E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com
Richard Maurer - 28 Dec 2003 03:35 GMT << [Franco] "you must have liked it a lot".
Is that sentence correct? And what does it means precisely? [end quote] >>
<< [Mark Brader] Here the word "must" implies that a conclusion is being drawn. "There's no traffic outside the stadium. There must not be a game this evening." In this case the conclusion is that "you" liked it a lot. [end quote] >>
The "must" might be confusing. It is not a command. Approximately, it is a tentative yet emphatic form of "you liked it a lot".
For "precisely", take Mark Brader's comment into account. When used in dialog a confirmation often follows.
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Bailey - 28 Dec 2003 05:02 GMT > "you must have liked it a lot". > > Is that sentence correct? Yes.
> And what does it means precisely? It means: I infer from what you have done or said since you saw the film that you loved it.
Adrian
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