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Proposal for newsgroup alt.like.is.a.conjunction

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Bob Cunningham - 12 Jan 2004 19:52 GMT
I propose that a newsgroup be established whose primary
purpose will be to share examples of awkward, unnatural
phrasing that has resulted from efforts to conform to
useless principles of English usage.  The name of this new
newsgroup will be "alt.like.is.a.conjunction" ("ALIAC").

I suspect that most of us have been puzzled by unnatural
phrasing and have eventually realized that it resulted from
the writer's effort to avoid a "split infinitive", to avoid
using "like" as a conjunction, or to conform to some other
artificial interference with plain English usage.

To be a welcome member of this new newsgroup, one must agree
to accept the following tenets:

1. "Like" is to be accepted as a valid conjunction, and the
unidiomatic substitution of "as" for its natural uses must
be eschewed.

2. The term "split infinitive" must be eliminated -- except
to condemn it - from all discussions of acceptable English.
Usage guides now tell us to go ahead and split infinitives
whenever greater clarity, more natural expression, or less
ambiguity results.  It's sufficient to say that one's choice
of wording should always be such as to further those ends.
The concept of "split infinitive" adds nothing to that
principle.

3. "You-all" must be accepted as the standard plural of the
pronoun "you", and the latter must be restricted to singular
use only.

4. "Ain't" must be accepted as fully standard English -- but
only in the first person -- since it's the only suitable
choice to remedy the lack of an acceptable abbreviation for
"am not".  The ludicrously ungrammatical phrase "Aren't I?"
must be recognized as the abomination that it is.

5. The spelling distinction "its" versus "it's" for the
possessive must be recognized to be useless, the context
normally making the meaning obvious.  "It's" and "its" must
be accepted as optional for the possessive, but the
contraction of "it is" will continue to be only "it's".

6. Knee-jerk rejection of noun-verb conversions is to be
deplored and abjured.  Nearly all of the conversions that
are too often derided provide a usefully more explicit
meaning than that of any suggested substitute.

7. The pronoun "he" and its relatives "him" and "his" are to
be returned to their rightful genderless status.  For the
time being the lack of pronouns to refer unambiguously to
the male gender must be accepted, but it is to be hoped that
eventually pronouns will evolve to be used in that way.  In
the interim, by analogy to presently used "he or she", "him
or her", and "his or hers", writers and speakers may resort
to using the terms "he and not she", "him and not her", and
"his and not hers".

8. In cases where "fewer" is now prescribed to the exclusion
of "less", the choice of "less" or "fewer" will be optional,
left to the user's judgement to decide which sounds more
natural.  People who insist that retailers must say "ten
items or fewer" will be hounded from the newsgroup with
howls of derision.

Readers are invited to suggest other useless -- sometimes
harmful -- Thistlebottomian hobgoblins to add to the above
list before the charter for the new newsgroup is put in
final form.
John Hall - 12 Jan 2004 20:34 GMT
>3. "You-all" must be accepted as the standard plural of the
>pronoun "you", and the latter must be restricted to singular
>use only.

What about "you-both", which is how a friend and I were addressed on at
least one occasion when holidaying in a southern US state? I think that
"you" for one person, "you-both" for two people and "you-all" for three
or more has a lot to be said for it.
Signature

John Hall

              "Distrust any enterprise that requires new clothes."
                                    Henry David Thoreau (1817-1862)

Bob Cunningham - 12 Jan 2004 22:11 GMT
> >3. "You-all" must be accepted as the standard plural of the
> >pronoun "you", and the latter must be restricted to singular
> >use only.

> What about "you-both", which is how a friend and I were addressed on at
> least one occasion when holidaying in a southern US state? I think that
> "you" for one person, "you-both" for two people and "you-all" for three
> or more has a lot to be said for it.

Other languages have a dual number in addition to the usual
singular and plural.  So far as I know, English doesn't have
any traces of dual number left.  Your "you-both" would
reintroduce it.

I don't see anything wrong with doing that.
Ross Howard - 12 Jan 2004 22:32 GMT
>> >3. "You-all" must be accepted as the standard plural of the
>> >pronoun "you", and the latter must be restricted to singular
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>I don't see anything wrong with doing that.

Although not in the form of full-fledged number some remnants of
duality-marking do still exist in English, though -- e.g.  "the better
(?*best) of the two", "John and Mary both (*all) came" or "Neither
(*none) of the two came".

--
Ross Howard
Bob Cunningham - 13 Jan 2004 00:39 GMT


> >> >3. "You-all" must be accepted as the standard plural of the
> >> >pronoun "you", and the latter must be restricted to singular
> >> >use only.

> >> What about "you-both", which is how a friend and I were addressed on at
> >> least one occasion when holidaying in a southern US state? I think that
> >> "you" for one person, "you-both" for two people and "you-all" for three
> >> or more has a lot to be said for it.

> >Other languages have a dual number in addition to the usual
> >singular and plural.  So far as I know, English doesn't have
> >any traces of dual number left.  Your "you-both" would
> >reintroduce it.

> >I don't see anything wrong with doing that.

> Although not in the form of full-fledged number some remnants of
> duality-marking do still exist in English, though -- e.g.  "the better
> (?*best) of the two", "John and Mary both (*all) came" or "Neither
> (*none) of the two came".

Good points.  Thank you.  I hadn't thought of those usages
as hinting at a remnant of dual number, but, now that you
mention it, they certainly seem to.
Carmen L. Abruzzi - 13 Jan 2004 08:04 GMT
Once upon a 1/12/04 2:11 PM, in the land of
bo66001s9mufqpob84gtn3naosc9fc41j4@4ax.com, the very good"Bob Cunningham"
from <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote:

>>> 3. "You-all" must be accepted as the standard plural of the
>>> pronoun "you", and the latter must be restricted to singular
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I don't see anything wrong with doing that.

We ought to fill out the paradigm, and give it both an inclusive and
exclusive second person plural.  I propose:
               dual                         plural
   excl.                 incl.       excl.       incl.
1 me'n'this-other-guy     you'n'me    me'n'them    we-all

2               you-both                      you-all

3               both-o'them                   those-guys

This would have the great advantage of removing the inherent plurality of
"they", leaving it free to fill in as the missing masculine gender singular.

Anyway, I think it's clear that this paradigm would utterly obviate any
accusations of "laziness" on the part of its users.              
Bob Cunningham - 13 Jan 2004 14:11 GMT
> Once upon a 1/12/04 2:11 PM, in the land of
> bo66001s9mufqpob84gtn3naosc9fc41j4@4ax.com, the very good"Bob Cunningham"
> from <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote:


> >>> 3. "You-all" must be accepted as the standard plural of the
> >>> pronoun "you", and the latter must be restricted to singular
> >>> use only.

> >> What about "you-both", which is how a friend and I were addressed on at
> >> least one occasion when holidaying in a southern US state? I think that
> >> "you" for one person, "you-both" for two people and "you-all" for three
> >> or more has a lot to be said for it.

> > Other languages have a dual number in addition to the usual
> > singular and plural.  So far as I know, English doesn't have
> > any traces of dual number left.  Your "you-both" would
> > reintroduce it.

> > I don't see anything wrong with doing that.

> We ought to fill out the paradigm, and give it both an inclusive and
> exclusive second person plural.  I propose:
>                 dual                         plural
>     excl.                 incl.       excl.       incl.
> 1 me'n'this-other-guy     you'n'me    me'n'them    we-all

> 2               you-both                      you-all

> 3               both-o'them                   those-guys

I like it.  And it's already in place.  We can use any of
the elements of the paradigm and be clearly understood.

> This would have the great advantage of removing the inherent plurality of
> "they", leaving it free to fill in as the missing masculine gender singular.

Don't you mean "the missing gender-neutral singular"?

Anyway, what's missing is not the gender-neutral singular.
We already have traditional gender-neutral singulars in
"he", "him", and "his".  What's missing is an exclusively
masculine singular.

> Anyway, I think it's clear that this paradigm would utterly obviate any
> accusations of "laziness" on the part of its users.              

If you say so.
Peter Tilman - 12 Jan 2004 20:51 GMT
> 3. "You-all" must be accepted as the standard plural of the
> pronoun "you", and the latter must be restricted to singular
> use only.

I'd rather "you" were restricted to the plural and "thou", "thee", etc,
brought back for the singular.
Bob Cunningham - 12 Jan 2004 22:15 GMT
> > 3. "You-all" must be accepted as the standard plural of the
> > pronoun "you", and the latter must be restricted to singular
> > use only.

> I'd rather "you" were restricted to the plural and "thou", "thee", etc,
> brought back for the singular.

But "you-all" already has a huge foot in the door, while
"thou", "thee", "thy" and such are much less in common use.
Peter Tilman - 12 Jan 2004 22:24 GMT
> > > 3. "You-all" must be accepted as the standard plural of the
> > > pronoun "you", and the latter must be restricted to singular
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> But "you-all" already has a huge foot in the door

Not where I live.

> while
> "thou", "thee", "thy" and such are much less in common use.

And "he and not she" is in common use?
Bob Cunningham - 13 Jan 2004 01:01 GMT
> > > > 3. "You-all" must be accepted as the standard plural of the
> > > > pronoun "you", and the latter must be restricted to singular
> > > > use only.

> > > I'd rather "you" were restricted to the plural and "thou", "thee", etc,
> > > brought back for the singular.

> > But "you-all" already has a huge foot in the door

> Not where I live.

It's regional, but in a large region.

> > while
> > "thou", "thee", "thy" and such are much less in common use.

> And "he and not she" is in common use?

"He", "and", "not", and "she" are all in common use, and
I've combined them in a thoroughly acceptable way to produce
a phrase whose meaning is quite understandable and implies
no uncommon meaning of any of the words.
Simon R. Hughes - 12 Jan 2004 21:18 GMT
> I propose that a newsgroup be established whose primary
> purpose will be to share examples of awkward, unnatural
> phrasing that has resulted from efforts to conform to
> useless principles of English usage.  The name of this new
> newsgroup will be "alt.like.is.a.conjunction" ("ALIAC").

[...]

> Readers are invited to suggest other useless -- sometimes
> harmful -- Thistlebottomian hobgoblins to add to the above
> list before the charter for the new newsgroup is put in
> final form.

I think all pronominal distincions should be abolished, along
with verb inflection and other markers of tense and time. The
object of this exercise is to simplify the language, after all.
Signature

Simon R. Hughes

Bob Cunningham - 12 Jan 2004 22:28 GMT

> > I propose that a newsgroup be established whose primary
> > purpose will be to share examples of awkward, unnatural
> > phrasing that has resulted from efforts to conform to
> > useless principles of English usage.  The name of this new
> > newsgroup will be "alt.like.is.a.conjunction" ("ALIAC").

> [...]
 
> > Readers are invited to suggest other useless -- sometimes
> > harmful -- Thistlebottomian hobgoblins to add to the above
> > list before the charter for the new newsgroup is put in
> > final form.

> I think all pronominal distincions should be abolished, along
> with verb inflection and other markers of tense and time.

That might be appropriate for yet another proposed
newsgroup.  (I suppose it could be called
"alt.me.talkee.pigeon".)  It wouldn't be appropriate for
ALIAC unless the speech of ordinary people were
characterized by lack of pronomial distinctions, verb
inflection, and other markers of tense and time.  It
definitely is not.

> The object of this exercise is to simplify the language,
> after all.

Did someone say "the object of this exercise is to simplify
the language"?  I didn't.  Hughes probably dreamed it.

The object of my "exercise" was to advocate full acceptance
of usages that are already more widespread than are the ones
some people wish they could enforce in their place.  Whether
the terms people use or the terms prescriptivists wish they
would use are simpler is irrelevant.
Simon R. Hughes - 13 Jan 2004 08:06 GMT

>> I think all pronominal distincions should be abolished, along
>> with verb inflection and other markers of tense and time.
>
> That might be appropriate for yet another proposed
> newsgroup.  (I suppose it could be called
> "alt.me.talkee.pigeon".)

I couldn't comment; I don't understand pigeons.

Signature

Simon R. Hughes

Bob Cunningham - 13 Jan 2004 12:49 GMT

 
> >> I think all pronominal distincions should be abolished, along
> >> with verb inflection and other markers of tense and time.

> > That might be appropriate for yet another proposed
> > newsgroup.  (I suppose it could be called
> > "alt.me.talkee.pigeon".)

> I couldn't comment; I don't understand pigeons.

On reading that comment, I wondered if I had committed a
misspelling.  However, I see now that both British and
American dictionaries show "pigeon" as a variant spelling of
"pidgin".

The quotations under "pidgin,pigeon" in the _Oxford English
Dictionary_ suggest that the early spelling was "pigeon",
the later "pidgin".

I've now learned -- maybe for the first time and maybe not
-- that "pigeon" was originally a Chinese attempt to
pronounce English "business", and it meant at first any sort
of activity that English speakers might call business.  The
first quotation in that sense is dated 1826, while the first
attestation of "pigeon English" is dated 1859.  There's a
"pigeon-English" dated 1891, then numerous quotations all
using "pidgin" from 1921 through 1978.

Interesting to see, the sense found in the expression "(to
be) someone's pigeon: to be (that person's) concern, affair,
etc." (_OED_) maintains the original meaning without
reference to language.  In diametric contrast to the
language meaning, it shows the spelling "pidgin" in older
quotations, "pigeon" in later.

It appears that in order to be least susceptible to
accusations of misspelling nowadays, we should use the
spellings exemplified in "If he wants to talk pidgin, that's
not my pigeon".
Ben Zimmer - 13 Jan 2004 18:10 GMT
> I've now learned -- maybe for the first time and maybe not
> -- that "pigeon" was originally a Chinese attempt to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> "pigeon-English" dated 1891, then numerous quotations all
> using "pidgin" from 1921 through 1978.

You may have missed the OED's 1876 citation of a work called _Pidgin
English Sing Song_, the earliest attestation given for that spelling.
Antedating that are 1869 cites from the Making of America database:

    Tileston, W. M., "Tea Leaves"
    Overland monthly and Out West magazine.
    Volume 3, Issue 6, Dec 1869, pp.539-544

    http://tinyurl.com/3cc58
    (p. 539)
     The "pidgin English" which followed, was too much
    for our untutored intellects to comprehend.

    http://tinyurl.com/2wjtm
    (p. 543)
    We asked Ah Lum to translate one of the songs for us;
    but the effort to put the words of one of his native
    poets into "pidgin English" was too much.

And slightly antedating the 1859 cite for "pigeon English" is this from
1857:

    http://tinyurl.com/2ltb9
    Train, George Francis
    An American merchant in Europe, Asia, and Australia.
    New York, G.P. Putnam, 1857.
    (p. 101)
    On every side of you, Pigeon English - that horrible
    jargon of multilated baby talk which custom has made
    law - meets you. From boatwomen to shopmen - house boy
    to compradore - you hear nothing else. I endeavored to
    get a copy of Hamlet's soliloquy, which was translated
    into Pigeon English, but I have failed to do it. I can
    only remember its commencement.
    "To be or not to be" reads: "Can - no can."
Bob Cunningham - 13 Jan 2004 20:02 GMT

> > I've now learned -- maybe for the first time and maybe not
> > -- that "pigeon" was originally a Chinese attempt to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> > "pigeon-English" dated 1891, then numerous quotations all
> > using "pidgin" from 1921 through 1978.

> You may have missed the OED's 1876 citation of a work called _Pidgin
> English Sing Song_, the earliest attestation given for that spelling.

I deny missing it.  I was examining the diachronic desuetude
of the spelling "pigeon".  The thrust of my remark was that
the last attestation of "pigeon-English" is dated 1891, and
from there on it's all "pidgin".

If I had been considering the diachronicity of "pidgin", I
would have mentioned the interesting variant "pidgeon" in
the 1845 quotation, although it pertains to the business
sense rather than the language sense.

> Antedating that are 1869 cites from the Making of America database:

>     Tileston, W. M., "Tea Leaves"
>     Overland monthly and Out West magazine.
>     Volume 3, Issue 6, Dec 1869, pp.539-544

>     http://tinyurl.com/3cc58
>     (p. 539)
>       The "pidgin English" which followed, was too much
>     for our untutored intellects to comprehend.

>     http://tinyurl.com/2wjtm
>     (p. 543)
>     We asked Ah Lum to translate one of the songs for us;
>     but the effort to put the words of one of his native
>     poets into "pidgin English" was too much.

> And slightly antedating the 1859 cite for "pigeon English" is this from
> 1857:

>     http://tinyurl.com/2ltb9
>     Train, George Francis
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>     only remember its commencement.
>     "To be or not to be" reads: "Can - no can."

Your inputs should be of interest to the updaters of the
online _OED_.

All of this discussion of pidgin English brings to mind a
joke I read and found highly amusing about 76 years ago:
"What time does a Chinaman go to the dentist?"  "Tooth
hurtee."

Evan Kirshenbaum - 13 Jan 2004 18:31 GMT
> > I think all pronominal distincions should be abolished, along with
> > verb inflection and other markers of tense and time.
>
> That might be appropriate for yet another proposed
> newsgroup.  (I suppose it could be called
> "alt.me.talkee.pigeon".)

Of course, in one of the most well-studied "pidgins", Tok Pisin, not
only do they have pronouns that distinguish singular, dual, and
plural, but the pronoun system also distinguishes "inclusive 'we'"
(you and me and possibly others) and "exclusive 'we'" (me and others,
but not you).  In both dual and plural.  The don't distinguish by
gender or animacy though.  Or case.  So it's

            1st(excl) 1st(incl)    2nd        3rd
            --------- ---------    ---        ---
 Singular:  mi                     yu         em
     Dual:  mitupela  yumitupela   yutupela   tupela
   Plural:  mipela    yumi         yupela     ol

Signature

Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
   HP Laboratories                    |The Elizabethans had so many words
   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |for the female genitals that it is
   Palo Alto, CA  94304               |quite hard to speak a sentence of
                                      |modern English without inadvertently
   kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com             |mentioning at least three of them.
   (650)857-7572                      |             Terry Pratchett

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Bob Cunningham - 13 Jan 2004 21:50 GMT
> > > I think all pronominal distincions should be abolished, along with
> > > verb inflection and other markers of tense and time.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>       Dual:  mitupela  yumitupela   yutupela   tupela
>     Plural:  mipela    yumi         yupela     ol

That elaborate paradigm makes me wonder if there's any
dispute among linguists as to whether or not Tok Pisin
should really be called a pidgin.

My impression is that a pidgin is a crutch to enable
speakers of two different languages to communicate, and in
order to simplify that process grammatical complexities of
both languages are mostly abandoned.  It doesn't seem right
for a so-called pidgin to have a more elaborate grammar than
one of the parent languages.

The _Oxford English Dictionary_ says about "Tok Pisin"

  1982 Trans. Philol. Soc. 103 Unfortunately, data
  about the use of Tok Pisin by the indigenous
  population is very scarce.

This makes me wonder how well acquainted the Melanesian Joe
Sixpack is with the elaborate paradigm you've described.
Aaron J. Dinkin - 13 Jan 2004 22:51 GMT
>> Of course, in one of the most well-studied "pidgins", Tok Pisin, not
>> only do they have pronouns that distinguish singular, dual, and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> dispute among linguists as to whether or not Tok Pisin
> should really be called a pidgin.

I don't think that there is - specifically, I'm pretty sure the consensus
is that it shouldn't be called a pidgin. That's (I presume) why Evan put
"pidgin" in quotes - it's not really a pidgin anymore, but it's still got
"pidgin" (i.e., "Pisin") in its name.

-Aaron J. Dinkin
Dr. Whom
Tony Cooper - 12 Jan 2004 23:43 GMT
>I propose that a newsgroup be established whose primary
>purpose will be to share examples of awkward, unnatural
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
>list before the charter for the new newsgroup is put in
>final form.

You should of added a few that I use.  There are people that would
appreciate that.
Gwilym Calon - 13 Jan 2004 00:03 GMT
> You should of added a few that I use.

Yes, you definitely should of..... I would of.

:-)

----------------
GC
Tony Cooper - 13 Jan 2004 01:32 GMT
>> You should of added a few that I use.
>
>Yes, you definitely should of..... I would of.
>
>:-)

It's always a bit disconcerting when an unfamiliar name posts a
cryptic follow-up like this one.  It's not known if the incomer is
unaware of the tone of the original post and slagging. or aware of the
implied (sic) and just giving the chain an additional pull.

"Gwilym" is an unfamiliar name to me.  Welsh?  How is it pronounced?
And, if you don't mind me asking, is it generally a male or female
name?  If you do mind me asking, please reply anyway and include a
frownie instead of a smilie.

I'll take a chance at  "Gwilm" rhyming with ..... uh, errrr,
ummm...film?  

"Incomer", of course, referring to aue.  We are all aue-centric here
when we're not being otherwise centrical.
Gwilym Calon - 13 Jan 2004 02:28 GMT
> It's always a bit disconcerting when an unfamiliar name posts a
> cryptic follow-up like this one.  It's not known if the incomer is
> unaware of the tone of the original post and slagging. or aware of the
> implied (sic) and just giving the chain an additional pull.

The latter.

> "Gwilym" is an unfamiliar name to me.  Welsh?  How is it pronounced?

The way it's spelt. All Welsh words work that way.

> And, if you don't mind me asking, is it generally a male or female
> name?

I don't mind - it's male (so am I). The English equivalent is William

> I'll take a chance at  "Gwilm" rhyming with ..... uh, errrr,
> ummm...film?

Only if you are from Liverpool, and prononce that word fill-um.

> "Incomer", of course, referring to aue.

No, I'm on ucle. I'm just peeping through the aue window.

------------
GC
Tony Cooper - 13 Jan 2004 04:43 GMT
>> It's always a bit disconcerting when an unfamiliar name posts a
>> cryptic follow-up like this one.  It's not known if the incomer is
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>The way it's spelt. All Welsh words work that way.

That's very much in agreement with my one visit to Wales.  All words
are pronounced exactly the way the words are spelled.  It's just that
the letters used are deceptively similar to the alphabet we use here
even though there's obviously no correlation.

>No, I'm on ucle. I'm just peeping through the aue window.

"Ucle" is the Welsh spelling of "voyeur", then?  
Adrian Bailey - 13 Jan 2004 05:47 GMT
> >> "Gwilym" is an unfamiliar name to me.  Welsh?  How is it pronounced?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the letters used are deceptively similar to the alphabet we use here
> even though there's obviously no correlation.

?!

Adrian
Tony Cooper - 13 Jan 2004 06:42 GMT
>> >> "Gwilym" is an unfamiliar name to me.  Welsh?  How is it pronounced?
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>?!

Think about what I said, and you'll probably figure it out, Adrian.
In the meantime, here's an old joke:

Two Yanks were driving through Wales and came to the town of
Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch.   They
started arguing about how the name of the town was pronounced.  The
argument continued until they stopped for lunch.  When they were
standing at the counter, one of them said to the employee "We're
having trouble pronouncing the name of this place.  Would you please
pronounce it very slowly and carefully for us."  

The girl leaned over the counter and said "Burrrrr, Gurrrrrr,
Kiiiinnnng."
CyberCypher - 13 Jan 2004 00:12 GMT
Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote on 13 Jan 2004:

> I propose that a newsgroup be established whose primary
> purpose will be to share examples of awkward, unnatural
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> list before the charter for the new newsgroup is put in
> final form.

An interesting idea, Bob, but it sounds too prescirptivist to me.

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Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.

Bob Cunningham - 13 Jan 2004 00:54 GMT
> Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote on 13 Jan 2004:

> > I propose that a newsgroup be established whose primary
> > purpose will be to share examples of awkward, unnatural
> > phrasing that has resulted from efforts to conform to
> > useless principles of English usage.  The name of this new
> > newsgroup will be "alt.like.is.a.conjunction" ("ALIAC").
 
> > I suspect that most of us have been puzzled by unnatural
> > phrasing and have eventually realized that it resulted from
> > the writer's effort to avoid a "split infinitive", to avoid
> > using "like" as a conjunction, or to conform to some other
> > artificial interference with plain English usage.
 
> > To be a welcome member of this new newsgroup, one must agree
> > to accept the following tenets:

[ To review the eight tenets, see Message-ID:
<3nu500l0f5iu0ja0t95p5g5ivq9bd6t7ib@4ax.com> ]

> > Readers are invited to suggest other useless -- sometimes
> > harmful -- Thistlebottomian hobgoblins to add to the above
> > list before the charter for the new newsgroup is put in
> > final form.
 
> An interesting idea, Bob, but it sounds too prescirptivist to me.

I have no major quarrel with prescriptivism, so long as the
prescriptions agree with my beliefs.
CyberCypher - 13 Jan 2004 01:03 GMT
Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote on 13 Jan 2004:

[...]

> I have no major quarrel with prescriptivism, so long as the
> prescriptions agree with my beliefs.

This is a keeper.

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Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.

Jenny - 13 Jan 2004 07:09 GMT
> I propose that a newsgroup be established whose primary
> purpose will be to share examples of awkward, unnatural
[quoted text clipped - 66 lines]
> list before the charter for the new newsgroup is put in
> final form.

I'm so new here that I probably shouldn't butt in and vote on this.
But with the exception of using the split infinitive (mostly accepted
now anyway) and restoring the use of "ain't,"  all the other suggestions
leave me with a finger-scratching-on-the-blackboard sensation.
The answer to the problem raised in #7, however, demands one big
change in usage---the acceptance of"they" and "their" as singular
gender-nuetral pronouns.  Otherwise, I respectfully bow out of this
group, which is just trying to legitimize lazy usage.

          Jenny
Carmen L. Abruzzi - 13 Jan 2004 07:51 GMT
Once upon a 1/12/04 11:09 PM, in the land of CQMMb.76380$X%5.9993@pd7tw2no,

>> I propose that a newsgroup be established whose primary
>> purpose will be to share examples of awkward, unnatural
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>
>          Jenny

Lazy usage?  Look, you think folks around here are going to have an easy
time of it using "like" as a conjunction? Using "ain't" at all, let alone
having to limit it to the first person singular?  Verbing and letting be
verbed?  Cracking an easy, contented smile upon reading "15 items or less"
above their heads?  Like you say, finger-nail on the blackboard!  This is
going to take some work, woman, some real work!

--Carmen L. Abruzzi
 
Jenny - 13 Jan 2004 08:23 GMT
> Once upon a 1/12/04 11:09 PM, in the land of CQMMb.76380$X%5.9993@pd7tw2no,
>
[quoted text clipped - 88 lines]
>
> --Carmen L. Abruzzi

Heh, yes, it would.  So why do it?
Carmen L. Abruzzi - 13 Jan 2004 09:10 GMT
Once upon a 1/13/04 12:23 AM, in the land of HVNMb.75668$JQ1.73264@pd7tw1no,

>> Once upon a 1/12/04 11:09 PM, in the land of
> CQMMb.76380$X%5.9993@pd7tw2no,
[quoted text clipped - 91 lines]
>>
> Heh, yes, it would.  So why do it?

Because it's there.

--Carmen L. Abruzzi
   Were diu werlt alle min, von dem mere unze an den Rin,
   des wolt ih mih darben, des wolt ih mih darben
   daz diu chunegin von Engellant lege an minen armen.
CyberCypher - 13 Jan 2004 16:27 GMT
"Jenny" <Elysiumj@telus.org> wrote on 13 Jan 2004:

[...]

>> > I'm so new here that I probably shouldn't butt in and vote on
>> > this. But with the exception of using the split infinitive
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> > gender-nuetral pronouns.  Otherwise, I respectfully bow out of
>> > this group, which is just trying to legitimize lazy usage.

Yes, you are too new --- and too innocent for such a group. The first
thing you're missing is a sense of group history, and the second, which
is much more important, is a sense of humor. So I, for one, will begin
the chorus of "So long, it's been good to know you".

>> Lazy usage?  Look, you think folks around here are going to have
>> an easy time of it using "like" as a conjunction? Using "ain't"
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>  Heh, yes, it would.  So why do it?

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and you have just swallowed
it all, hook, line, and sinker. I don't think it tasted very good,
though, because you belched rather abruptly in that last remark.

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Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.

Jenny - 13 Jan 2004 22:19 GMT
> "Jenny" <Elysiumj@telus.org> wrote on 13 Jan 2004:
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> it all, hook, line, and sinker. I don't think it tasted very good,
> though, because you belched rather abruptly in that last remark.

Hey, what can I say?  When people all around me are
comfortable with these "proposed" usages, when I hear many of
them repeatedly on TV and see them in print, and when the
"proposal " was couched and replied to so seemingly seriously
(and don't forget that there are actually many people who seriously
propose "simplifying" English in these ways, I guess I was
fooled.  Actually, I know that language changes according to need,
and where something is really needed (such as a gender-neutral
pronoun) I'm in favor.  If this is a tongue-in-cheek proposal,
though---and by stating that, maybe I've taken all the fun out of it,
sorry---then I have a few proposals.  How about "disinterested"
for "uninterested," "chaise lounge" and "restauranteur" for
"chaise longue" and "restaurateur."  And don't forget "the
reason was...because..."  So am I forgiven?  Or is this all old hat
to you guys?
CyberCypher - 13 Jan 2004 23:55 GMT
"Jenny" <Elysiumj@telus.org> wrote on 14 Jan 2004:

[...]

> Hey, what can I say?

Nothing unpredictable, I fear. Less is more.

> When people all around me are comfortable with these
> "proposed" usages, when I hear many of them repeatedly on
> TV and see them in print,

Turn off the TV and stop reading the newspapers. Stick with 19th-
century French and Russian novels.

> and when the "proposal " was couched and replied to so
> seemingly seriously (and don't forget that there are
> actually many people who seriously propose "simplifying"
> English in these ways, I guess I was fooled.

Good humor is always believable . . . at first.

> Actually, I know that language changes according to
> need, and where something is really needed (such as a
> gender-neutral pronoun) I'm in favor.

Were there a real need need, 'twould've been filled within the last
millennium, I suspect, and now it's merely politics.

> If this is a tongue-in-cheek proposal, though---and by
> stating that, maybe I've taken all the fun out of it, sorry
> ---then I have a few proposals. How about "disinterested" for
> "uninterested," "chaise lounge" and "restauranteur" for "chaise
> longue" and "restaurateur."  And don't forget "the reason was
> ...because..."

Please submit an SASE and we shall inform you of our decisions ASAP.

So am I forgiven?

Not being a man of the cloth, I am hardly in a position to forgive
you. You'll have to find a confessor and get your penance from
elsewhere.

> Or is this all old hat to you guys?

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Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.

Simon R. Hughes - 14 Jan 2004 00:21 GMT
> Turn off the TV and stop reading the newspapers. Stick with 19th-
> century French and Russian novels.

I recently summarised my reading list from last year, and found,
to my surprise, that I had read one work of post-1900 fiction. It
was a Norwegian novel from late 2003, and it was terrible. The
most memorable thing about it are the tortured commas that are
forced to do the job of semicolons. I kid you not.

The only English fiction I read was/ were two books I had been
meaning to read since childhood: _The Jungle Book_ and _Lorna
Doone_.

This year, I will be reading _Confessions of an English Opium
Eater_, though it claims to be an autobiography, and Baudelaire
made it French (_Paradis artificiels_).
Signature

Simon R. Hughes

CyberCypher - 14 Jan 2004 00:34 GMT
"Simon R. Hughes" <a57998.not.this.bit@yahoo.no> wrote on 14 Jan 2004:

>> Turn off the TV and stop reading the newspapers. Stick with 19th-
>> century French and Russian novels.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Eater_, though it claims to be an autobiography, and Baudelaire
> made it French (_Paradis artificiels_).

The only regular fiction reading I've been able to do for the past few
years includes the work of Maurice Sendak, Dr Seuss, Arnold Lobel, and
similar authors. Now that my son is getting older, though, other
authors will be included. Some of the children's literature writers are
excellent, but others are so awful it makes me physically ill to read
their stuff. I have to edit and revise while I read aloud to my son.

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Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor.

Jody Bilyeu - 14 Jan 2004 17:10 GMT
[snip]

> The only regular fiction reading I've been able to do for the past few
> years includes the work of Maurice Sendak, Dr Seuss, Arnold Lobel, and
> similar authors. Now that my son is getting older, though, other
> authors will be included. Some of the children's literature writers are
> excellent, but others are so awful it makes me physically ill to read
> their stuff. I have to edit and revise while I read aloud to my son.

This sounds familiar. As you read, do you find yourself, as I do,
"unexpurgating" the blandized versions of fairy tales they put out these days?

What to protect children from and when is an arguable issue, I realize, but
sheesh.

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Cheers,
Jody
jodybilyeu@smsu.edu

Laura F Spira - 14 Jan 2004 17:28 GMT
> [snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> What to protect children from and when is an arguable issue, I realize, but
> sheesh.

This reminds me of my daughter's favourite book when she was a toddler -
"The Tiger who Came to Tea" by Judith Kerr. (We can both still recite
the whole text off by heart.) In the story the visiting tiger eats and
drinks everything in the house, including "all Daddy's beer". When the
story was read on childrens' TV, the beer was left out: this act of
censorship infuriated Jan who insisted that I had to write a letter of
complaint to the BBC.

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Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Simon R. Hughes - 14 Jan 2004 18:56 GMT
>> [snip]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> censorship infuriated Jan who insisted that I had to write a letter of
> complaint to the BBC.

I corrected the book as I read it: the tiger drank daddy's beer,
sure, but it also drank mummy's gin, and ate her valium.
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Simon R. Hughes

Bob Cunningham - 14 Jan 2004 18:38 GMT
[ . . . ]

> What to protect children from and when is an arguable
> issue, I realize, but sheesh.

This brings to mind one of my favorite AUE quips.  Sometime
in past years someone said in the course of a discussion of
offensive material in postings, "I wouldn't want my mother
to see something like that".

A highly respected AUE regular of the female persuasion
commented, "I wonder at what age the situation changes from
'I wouldn't want my son to see that' to 'I wouldn't want my
mother to see that'".
Mickwick - 15 Jan 2004 18:08 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Simon R. Hughes wrote:

>This year, I will be reading _Confessions of an English Opium
>Eater_, though it claims to be an autobiography, and Baudelaire
>made it French (_Paradis artificiels_).

This year, I shall mostly be reading _les pommes au four_.

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Mickwick

Bob Cunningham - 13 Jan 2004 13:59 GMT
> "Bob Cunningham" <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote [...]

> > [See Message-ID: <3nu500l0f5iu0ja0t95p5g5ivq9bd6t7ib@4ax.com>]

[ . . . ]

> > Readers are invited to suggest other useless -- sometimes
> > harmful -- Thistlebottomian hobgoblins to add to the above
> > list before the charter for the new newsgroup is put in
> > final form.

> I'm so new here that I probably shouldn't butt in and vote on this.
> But with the exception of using the split infinitive (mostly accepted
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> change in usage---the acceptance of "they" and "their" as singular
> gender-nuetral pronouns.  

Despite abundant evidence of their historical acceptance by
respected writers, plural pronouns used in a singular sense
seem fated to remain forever under a cloud of disapproval.  

In contrast, the use of "he", "him", and "his" as
gender-neutral pronouns was accepted with little question
until quite recent times, and it seems possible that the
current objections to them will eventually fade away,
returning the pronouns to their natural use.  I favor
pushing in that direction.

> Otherwise, I respectfully bow out of this group, which is
> just trying to legitimize lazy usage.

"Lazy" is an interesting usage in this context, because the
things I've advocated don't in general offer easier ways to
say things.  They just conform better to the ways people
speak naturally.

I suspect that someone who refers to them as "lazy usage" is
consciously or unconsciously recognizing that it takes
significant effort to avoid speaking naturally and to heed
Miss Thistlebottom's artificial admonitions.
Enrico C - 13 Jan 2004 17:56 GMT
> I propose that a newsgroup be established whose primary
> purpose will be to share examples of awkward, unnatural
> phrasing that has resulted from efforts to conform to
> useless principles of English usage.  The name of this new
> newsgroup will be "alt.like.is.a.conjunction" ("ALIAC").

How despicable! ;)

Why not a more *impacting* name?

alt.like.i.said.i.aint.you-all  ("ALISIAY-A")

<snip>

> Readers are invited to suggest other useless -- sometimes
> harmful -- Thistlebottomian hobgoblins to add to the above
> list before the charter for the new newsgroup is put in
> final form.

Hmmm... I'll think up something catchy, *hopefully* --but I really
*gotta* go now.

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Enrico C  ~  No native speaker

 
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