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Discussion Groups / British English / January 2004To reclude
I recently wanted to make a verb related to the noun "recluse", to mean what a recluse does when they withdraw and shut themselves away. The natural verb seemed to be "to reclude". However, it wasn't in my dictionary, and looking online only comes up with a definition from Webster's, meaning "to open, to unclose". Has anyone else used, or heard, "to reclude" in the way I wanted to use it? Any comments on the validity of that usage? Cheers, Tony  SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org >I recently wanted to make a verb related to the noun "recluse", to >mean what a recluse does when they withdraw and shut themselves away. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Has anyone else used, or heard, "to reclude" in the way I wanted to use it? >Any comments on the validity of that usage? I've never heard of "reclude" but "seclude" would seem an appropriate verb to use. SignatureJohn Hall "I look upon it, that he who does not mind his belly, will hardly mind anything else." Dr Samuel Johnson (1709-84) > >I recently wanted to make a verb related to the noun "recluse", to > >mean what a recluse does when they withdraw and shut themselves away. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I've never heard of "reclude" but "seclude" would seem an appropriate > verb to use. So why isn't he a "secluse"? :-) Also, seclude seems to be a transitive verb, but I was looking for an intransitive one. Cheers, Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org >> >I recently wanted to make a verb related to the noun "recluse", to >> >mean what a recluse does when they withdraw and shut themselves away. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >So why isn't he a "secluse"? :-) Also, seclude seems to be a transitive >verb, but I was looking for an intransitive one. Yes, it is. I think one would say something like"he secluded himself away". SignatureJohn Hall "I look upon it, that he who does not mind his belly, will hardly mind anything else." Dr Samuel Johnson (1709-84) > I recently wanted to make a verb related to the noun "recluse", to > mean what a recluse does when they withdraw and shut themselves away. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Has anyone else used, or heard, "to reclude" in the way I wanted to use it? Well a bit more googling has brought up a few instances of the usage: http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=5gvt64%24172%40lace.colorado.edu http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=3ss8rq%24fnc%40newsbf02.news.aol.com http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=95032201170511440%40nwcs.org http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=pan.2003.01.31.11.56.47.267481.16368%40sp ameater.com http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?selm=3A2463F7.DA9CE05C%40mindspring.com and a few more... Most of the other matches were either typos of "preclude", or latin text, in which "reclude" means to open wide. > Any comments on the validity of that usage? At least I'm not alone.... Cheers, Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org >> I recently wanted to make a verb related to the noun "recluse", to >> mean what a recluse does when they withdraw and shut themselves away. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> Has anyone else used, or heard, "to reclude" in the way I wanted to use it? > Well a bit more googling has brought up a few instances of the usage: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Cheers, > Tony Hmmm... dunno! A bunch of Google entries is not really much. If you look for "reclude" on Onelook.com, the dictionary search engine, you'll find it on only four dictionaries out of many more, and at least two of them are quite old texts, i.e. Webster 1828 and Webster 1913. The meaning there, anyway, is "to open; to unclose". But, if a new meaning of "to reclude" is popping out, after the noun "recluse"; I would be personally happy, as it works the same way in my own language! In Italian, "un recluso" is the noun (a recluse) and "recludere" is the matching verb (to seclude). SignatureEnrico C ~ No native speaker > I recently wanted to make a verb related to the noun "recluse", to > mean what a recluse does when they withdraw and shut themselves away. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Has anyone else used, or heard, "to reclude" in the way I wanted to use it? > Any comments on the validity of that usage? OED1 marks "reclude" as obsolete. The definitions are 1. /trans./ to open (a gate, etc.) [citatitions from 1420, 1665] 2. a. To shut up (a thing or person); to close. [citations from 1576, 1578, 1651, 1843] b. To shut (a person) off /from/ a thing. [citations from 1598, 1600, 1657, 1657] 3. To shut out (a thing). /rare/ [citation from 1634] 1. and 2. seem to place 'reclude' in the 'cleave' class of verbs. SOED3 gives termini ante quem of 1665 for sense 1 (dated LME-M17 in SOED4/5), 1843 for sense 2a (dated L16 in SOED4/5), and 1657 for sense 2b (dated L16 in SOED4/5, "Seclude /from/ society, etc.; sequestrate"). It doesn't mention sense 3. Note that there was a time (LME-E18) when a verb "recluse" was used in sense 2a or "reclude." SignatureMartin Ambuhl Thank you Martin - that's very interesting information. As I'm not a philologist, I've had to infer or make educated guesses about the meaning of some of the terminology: > > I recently wanted to make a verb related to the noun "recluse", to > > mean what a recluse does when they withdraw and shut themselves away. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > OED1 marks "reclude" as obsolete. The definitions are > 1. /trans./ to open (a gate, etc.) [citatitions from 1420, 1665] This looks like it corresponds to the Latin, and is the only surviving definition in Webster 1913. > 2. a. To shut up (a thing or person); to close. [citations from 1576, 1578, > 1651, 1843] > b. To shut (a person) off /from/ a thing. [citations from 1598, 1600, > 1657, 1657] This looks like the sense I was trying to obtain. I'm surprised it died out. Does "(a (thing or) person)" indicate the subject or object of the verb? > 3. To shut out (a thing). /rare/ [citation from 1634] > 1. and 2. seem to place 'reclude' in the 'cleave' class of verbs. Indeed. > SOED3 gives termini ante quem of 1665 for sense 1 Googling for "termini ante quem" only turned up geology and archaeology sites. Does it indicate a date of last known usage? > (dated LME-M17 in Late Middle English, Middle 17th century? > SOED4/5), 1843 for sense 2a (dated L16 in SOED4/5), and 1657 for sense 2b > (dated L16 in SOED4/5, "Seclude /from/ society, etc.; sequestrate"). It > doesn't mention sense 3. > > Note that there was a time (LME-E18) when a verb "recluse" was used in > sense 2a or "reclude." Out of interest, what makes a usage authoritative enough to be cited in the OED and not just considered an error? Published literature? Common speech? Newspapers? Thanks again Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org [...] >>2. a. To shut up (a thing or person); to close. [citations from 1576, 1578, >>1651, 1843] [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > This looks like the sense I was trying to obtain. I'm surprised it died out. > Does "(a (thing or) person)" indicate the subject or object of the verb? It is the object of the transitive verb. One could always use it reflexively, "He recluded himself." > Googling for "termini ante quem" only turned up geology and archaeology > sites. Does it indicate a date of last known usage? Sorry. I spend to much time with ancient texts needing dates. Terminus post quem: The starting-point of a period, the earliest possible date for something (also seen as "terminus post"). Terminus ante quem: The finishing-point of a period, the latest possible date for something (also seen as "terminus ante"). Terminus a quo: The starting-point of an argument, policy, period, etc. Terminus ad quem: The finishing-point of an argument, policy, period, etc. >>(dated LME-M17 in > Late Middle English, Middle 17th century? Yep. OUP talk for "late Middle English" (1350-1469) and "mid 17th century" (1630-1669). > Out of interest, what makes a usage authoritative enough to be cited in > the OED and not just considered an error? Published literature? Common > speech? Newspapers? The OED and SOED try to include the words current during their compass, 1150-publication for OED and SOED1-3, 1700-present for SOED4-5, but SOED4-5 include some words that seem to have died out as productive words before 1700, should they have importance to the history words otherwise included, or familiar from texts such as those by Shakespeare, Milton, and Spencer or the 1611 AV of the bible. The OED1 and SOED1-3 originally "drew the line" at "all of the 'Common Words" of literature and conversation, and such of the scientific, technical, slang, dialectical, and foreign words as are passing into common use." The SOED4-5 try for "words current at any time between 1700 and the present day: those which have been in literary or colloquial use at some point in their history; slang or dialect words which are nevertheless likely to be generally encountered through accessible literature or the modern mass media; and in addition a wide range of scientific and technical words as may be of interest to serious amateurs or advanced students." The front matter for OED1 and OED2 have in the past been available at the OUP site in the past and may still be there. If they are, that is where you can read the official line. There have also been more than one book published on the history of the OED. SignatureMartin Ambuhl [... lots of very interesting stuff about the OED ...] Many thanks! Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org > I recently wanted to make a verb related to the noun "recluse", to > mean what a recluse does when they withdraw and shut themselves away. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Cheers, > Tony I think the word that describes the act is 'retire'. 'Reclude' doesn't exist as far as I know. Mingmong > I think the word that describes the act is 'retire'. 'Reclude' doesn't > exist as far as I know. Please see my message on the actually existing verb "reclude." SignatureMartin Ambuhl > > I think the word that describes the act is 'retire'. 'Reclude' doesn't > > exist as far as I know. > > Please see my message on the actually existing verb "reclude." I did see your message, and it's very impressive. It's a clunky and awkward word. To retire is much more graceful. Mingmong > > > I think the word that describes the act is 'retire'. 'Reclude' doesn't > > > exist as far as I know. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Mingmong Include, exclude, seclude, reclude... What about plain old "clude"? Izzy > > Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:<x0mPb.17323$q4.16466@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > What about plain old "clude"? What about it? What about "gress", and "struct," and "volve," and "fer"? Do you want equal rights for all roots? I think there's more of them than there are of us. > > > Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message > > news:<x0mPb.17323$q4.16466@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Do you want equal rights for all roots? I think there's more of them > than there are of us. I just feel sorry for them, abandoned, alone... Izzy >>>> Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message >>> news:<x0mPb.17323$q4.16466@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>... [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Izzy Their marriages to 'e' 'in' and 're' and 'de' have all failed? But what of the children? -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply > >>>> Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<x0mPb.17323$q4.16466@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>... > >>>>>> I think the word that describes the act is 'retire'. 'Reclude' > >>>>>> doesn't exist as far as I know. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Oxford > De-frag to reply Wards of the State. Izzy > "John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote > > > "Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote > > >>> Include, exclude, seclude, reclude... > > >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > Wards of the State. There are about 50 web pages that include gress, struct, volve, fer, AND clude. They're all .pdf; there must be some glitch. Example, viewed as HTML: How ever, the spe cial ar range ments for those Par tic i pants who were en - rolled in the Plan on De cem ber 31, 1992, shall in clude, for a pe riod of eighttwelve years there af ter, the ben - e fits pay able un der Sec tion 5.05 That's really odd. Does anyone recognize what process would lead to this? SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> "John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >That's really odd. Does anyone recognize what process would lead to >this? Interesting. Might this be the result of a speech recognition system receiving carefully articulated speech? SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) > There are about 50 web pages that include gress, struct, volve, fer, AND > clude. They're all .pdf; there must be some glitch. Example, viewed as [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > That's really odd. Does anyone recognize what process would lead to > this? Sure. Hyphenation. You have to remember that PDF (like PostScript) doesn't have a notion of "space". You just put down the letters, perhaps moving before you do so. Any program that converts PDF to text has to try to infer where the actual word breaks are. What probably happened in this case is that the layout program started by breaking the words at hyphenation points and followed every group by either "interword space" or "optional hyphen". You then add the groups to the current line, counting zero width for optional hyphens except for one at the end of the line and some minimal width for interword spaces until you can't add the next group. You then spread all of the remaining space among the interword spaces to justify the line and output it to the PDF file as something like 20.3 setiws (How) show (ever,) iws (the) iws (spe) show (cial) iws etc., which would have been equivalent to 20.3 setiws (However,) iws (the) iws (special) iws but there's no reason to bother. The PDF-to-text converter probably knows how many of the popular formatting programs do interword and intraword spacing, but was unfamiliar with this one and so didn't recognize that these intraword breaks weren't interword breaks. Another thing that traditionally screws up such converters is kerning, where, for instance, "avoid" might be set as (av) -2.3 k (oid) to pull the "o" a little closer to the "v". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Any programming problem can be 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |solved by adding another layer of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |indirection. Any performance |problem can be solved by removing kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |one. (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > There are about 50 web pages that include gress, struct, volve, fer, AND > clude. They're all .pdf; there must be some glitch. Example, viewed as [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > That's really odd. Does anyone recognize what process would lead to > this? PostScript kerning. If the program producing the PostScript output wants an inter-letter spacing that isn't the default, it has to finish one output operation, position the drawing point and then start another output. PostScript, and therefor Acrobat, doesn't know that the two fragments were part of the same word, and has no way to mark them as such. Cheers, Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org >>>>>> Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >> > Wards of the State. Inwards? Outwards? Rewards? Up, down, for, back. to? -- John Dean Oxford De-frag to reply > >>>>>> Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message > >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Inwards? Outwards? Rewards? Up, down, for, back. to? Rear wards. Kept in a back room. Izzy [ ... ] > > > Include, exclude, seclude, reclude... > > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I just feel sorry for them, abandoned, alone... "clude"less. in fact. I echo Laura's sentiment -- good to see you back, Izzy. SignatureBob Lieblich Delete "d"from penultimate line of preceding post > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I echo Laura's sentiment -- good to see you back, Izzy. Thanks. It is nice to be remembered. It has been a long time, and it is a long story... Regards, Izzy >> [ ... ] >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >It has been a long time, and it is a long story... As the actress said to the bishop, "I've got the time if you've got the inclination". Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England > >> [ ... ] > >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > As the actress said to the bishop, "I've got the time if you've got the > inclination". ? Izzy >? *sigh* I guess nobody in this thread really feels like snipping. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >Include, exclude, seclude, reclude... Occlude. >What about plain old "clude"? Pass. SignatureJohn Hall "The covers of this book are too far apart." Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914) > Include, exclude, seclude, reclude... > > What about plain old "clude"? What about it? We pronounce it "close", though. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom ... > Include, exclude, seclude, reclude... > > What about plain old "clude"? Spelled "close" in English. I hope that clude you in. SignatureJerry Friedman >> Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:<x0mPb.17323$q4.16466@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net>... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Izzy Sounds a little cludegy to me. SignatureGary G. Taylor * Rialto, CA gary at donavan dot org / http:// geetee dot donavan dot org "The two most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." --Harlan Ellison > > > I think the word that describes the act is 'retire'. 'Reclude' doesn't > > > exist as far as I know. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I did see your message, and it's very impressive. It's a clunky and > awkward word. To retire is much more graceful. Maybe, but it doesn't (to me) convey the sense I was looking for. To retire is to: - finish working for a living - step down from a position or office - exit from a gathering - go to bed for the night What I'm looking for is an intransitive, but not reflexive, verb meaning to shut oneself away and avoid social interaction. Cheers, Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org > > > > I think the word that describes the act is 'retire'. 'Reclude' doesn't > > > > exist as far as I know. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Cheers, > Tony How about "Crawl into a hole and pull it in after you"? Intransitive, non-reflexive? Izzy >Maybe, but it doesn't (to me) convey the sense I was looking for. >To retire is to: >- finish working for a living >- step down from a position or office >- exit from a gathering >- go to bed for the night - sulk off and live in a cave, barrel or hermitage? There is also: - leave a contest early ("retire undefeated") and must be others. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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