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Nero - 22 Jan 2004 15:15 GMT

I don't suppose there's any principle at work here, more likely a
collection of random oddities, but what do you think ? The subject is
the occurrence of the adjectival function (whether word or phrase)
after the noun - which is pretty unusual in English I believe. This
pondering was prompted by hearing Jon Snow on Channel 4 News refer to
"the Mayor of London's attempt to rejoin the Labour Party - more on
matters Ken Livingstone later in the programme". This seems to me to
convey some kind of amusement at the subject, but I'm not sure why.

Elsewhere I imagine it's a question of ossified forms such as "Hymns
Ancient and Modern" or "Procurator Fiscal" or "Attorney General". No
doubt many examples could be found in Victorian poetry or in Gilbert &
Sullivan - matters vegetable, animal and mineral - perhaps this was
Jon Snow's distant reference ?

You can't really say "a disaster terrible" or "a disaster tragic" but
you can - probably on a solemn occasion - say "a disaster both
terrible and tragic". Why is this ? Is it the "both" that allows it
?

Neil

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Mike Stevens - 22 Jan 2004 16:24 GMT

> I don't suppose there's any principle at work here, more likely a
> collection of random oddities, but what do you think ? The subject is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> matters Ken Livingstone later in the programme". This seems to me to
> convey some kind of amusement at the subject, but I'm not sure why.

It seems to me a very strange use. I would have thought that either
"...about matters concerning Ken..." or simply ".... about Ken ..." a
much more natural way of putting it. So I assume that either Jon Snow
mis-read his autocue or he was trying for some special effect, possibly
using an archaism in order to sound quaint. If the latter, then you
reaction indicates that he might have succeeded.

--
Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

"I'm not an old fart, and I'm not an old bore,
Or a grumpy old b*gg*r like Evelyn Waugh"
(Christopher Matthew)

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John Dean - 22 Jan 2004 21:13 GMT

> I don't suppose there's any principle at work here, more likely a
> collection of random oddities, but what do you think ?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> terrible and tragic". Why is this ? Is it the "both" that allows it
> ?

You can go further and speak of disaster at the same time terrible, tragic
and educational.
--
John Dean
Oxford
De-frag to reply

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Dave Swindell - 22 Jan 2004 23:55 GMT

>I don't suppose there's any principle at work here, more likely a
>collection of random oddities, but what do you think ? The subject is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>matters Ken Livingstone later in the programme". This seems to me to
>convey some kind of amusement at the subject, but I'm not sure why.

I think you have assessed it quite correctly. It isn't something you
see every day of the week, but it is a perfectly valid formula. Perhaps
it would point it more obviously if you have the "Ken Livingston" bit in
quotation marks, though I can't say I've ever seen anybody do it that
way.

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Phil C. - 23 Jan 2004 09:50 GMT

>>I don't suppose there's any principle at work here, more likely a
>>collection of random oddities, but what do you think ? The subject is
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>quotation marks, though I can't say I've ever seen anybody do it that
>way.

It also turns up in attempts to be stylish - "Team Great Britain",
"Club Canary" etc. I assume in those cases it's copying continental
European style as in Club Med.

Then there's "murder most horrid". It's hard to Google past the TV
series of that name. I assume it came originally from an old newspaper
of pamphlet headline unless anyone knows better.

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Phil C.

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Peter Duncanson - 23 Jan 2004 11:17 GMT

>>>I don't suppose there's any principle at work here, more likely a
>>>collection of random oddities, but what do you think ? The subject is
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>series of that name. I assume it came originally from an old newspaper
>of pamphlet headline unless anyone knows better.

"Murder most horrid" is possibly a variation of Shakespeare's original:

Ghost. Revenge his foul and most unnatural murther.
Hamlet. Murther?
Ghost. Murther most foul, as in the best it is;
But this most foul, strange, and unnatural.

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Peter Duncanson
UK
(posting from u.c.l.e)

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Molly Mockford - 23 Jan 2004 20:40 GMT

>Then there's "murder most horrid". It's hard to Google past the TV
>series of that name. I assume it came originally from an old newspaper
>of pamphlet headline unless anyone knows better.

Don't forget Google's "exclude" options. This query removes just about
all the TV references:

"murder most horrid" -tv -television -video -bbc -"dawn french" -episode

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Discussion Groups / British English / January 2004

Question adjectival