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Sense and Sensibility

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FB - 18 Feb 2004 14:48 GMT
I'm reading "Sense and Sensibility" by Jane Austen and, though I have read
only some fifty pages so far, I have already found a possible peculiarity in
Jane Austen's language, concerning her usage of should and would.

She happens to use "should" for such set phrases as "I should
think/hope/expect so" and "would" for the other cases, e.g.:

"I would not wish to do any thing mean," he replied.

"I would lay fifty guineas the letter was of his own writing."

Nontheless, in some cases which don't seem to differ from those in which she
prefers "would", Austen uses "should", e.g.:

"My love," said her mother, "you must not be offended with Elinor - she was
only in jest. *I should scold her myself*, if she were capable of wishing to
check the delight of your conversation with our new friend."

I would have expected a more consistent usage of "should" and "would", that
is to say, either:

1) She could have used "should" only in set phrases (e.g. "I
should/hope/expect so") and "would" for ordinary conditionals (as she seems
to do for most of the time), "should" being used only for conditional duty;
==> that is what happens today, more or less

2) She could have used "should" in set phrases and ordinary conditional (as
she seems to do in such phrases as "I should scold her myself"), "would"
being used only to express a conditional will. ==> that is what traditional
rules said (Fowler, for example)

Where is the sense, in your opinion, in using "would" for ordinary
conditionals (e.g. "I would not wish", "I would not lay") and "should" for
*some* conditionals (e.g. "I should scold her myself if...") as ordinary?

Bye, FB
Adrian Bailey - 19 Feb 2004 00:24 GMT
> I'm reading "Sense and Sensibility" by Jane Austen and, though I have read
> only some fifty pages so far, I have already found a possible peculiarity in
> Jane Austen's language, concerning her usage of should and would.

[snip]

> Where is the sense, in your opinion, in using "would" for ordinary
> conditionals (e.g. "I would not wish", "I would not lay") and "should" for
> *some* conditionals (e.g. "I should scold her myself if...") as ordinary?

There doesn't have to be any "sense" in it, it's just the way people
speak/write.

Adrian
Einde O'Callaghan - 19 Feb 2004 07:54 GMT
>>I'm reading "Sense and Sensibility" by Jane Austen and, though I have read
>>only some fifty pages so far, I have already found a possible peculiarity
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> There doesn't have to be any "sense" in it, it's just the way people
> speak/write.

More the way the people *spoke* in Jane Austen's time.

There are/were some grammatical rules about the usage of "shall" vs.
"will" and "should" vs. "would" in standard British English, but these
seem to be dying out and many varieties of English, e.g. standard
English as spoken in Ireland, have never followed these distinctions.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Enrico C - 19 Feb 2004 08:05 GMT
> "FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message

>> "My love," said her mother, "you must not be offended with
>> Elinor - she was only in jest. *I should scold her myself*, if
>> she were capable of wishing to check the delight of your
>> conversation with our new friend."

<snip>

>> Where is the sense, in your opinion, in using "would" for
>> ordinary conditionals (e.g. "I would not wish", "I would not
>> lay") and "should" for *some* conditionals (e.g. "I should
>> scold her myself if...") as ordinary?

> There doesn't have to be any "sense" in it, it's just the way
> people speak/write.

That's interesting :-)
I, as a EFL speaker, have the same kind of doubts as FB.
I would expect that using "should" instead of "would" conveyed a
slightly different shade of meaning.

Signature

Enrico C

"The fad of today is the orthodoxy of tomorrow."

Enrico C - 19 Feb 2004 08:06 GMT
> "FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message

>> "My love," said her mother, "you must not be offended with
>> Elinor - she was only in jest. *I should scold her myself*, if
>> she were capable of wishing to check the delight of your
>> conversation with our new friend."

<snip>

>> Where is the sense, in your opinion, in using "would" for
>> ordinary conditionals (e.g. "I would not wish", "I would not
>> lay") and "should" for *some* conditionals (e.g. "I should
>> scold her myself if...") as ordinary?

> There doesn't have to be any "sense" in it, it's just the way
> people speak/write.

That's interesting :-)

I, as an EFL speaker, happen to have the same kind of doubts as FB.

I would expect that using "should" instead of "would" conveyed a
slightly different shade of meaning.

Signature

Enrico C

"The fad of today is the orthodoxy of tomorrow."

Dave Swindell - 19 Feb 2004 08:50 GMT
>> "FB" <fam.balducciNOSPAM@tin.it> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>I would expect that using "should" instead of "would" conveyed a
>slightly different shade of meaning.

It certainly does, and I strongly suspect that the loss of distinction
between them has been driven by the elision of both to "---'d".  

It is difficult to know exactly when this elision began.  Our only
sources in antiquity, both recent and ancient, are the writings of
(invariably) "educated" authors, who, from reading their works, appeared
to eschew the use of all such elisions in their writing, even if they
may have used them in everyday speech.  Perhaps it was considered an
aspect of the speech of the lower, labouring and servant classes.

Does anybody have any evidence of the use of such elision in recent
antiquity?  I have particularly in mind verbatim accounts of public
speeches, where perhaps the transcriber did their job well and didn't
conservatively modify the speech to follow current prejudices against
linguistic developments.

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Dave OSOS#24 dswindell.gerbil@tcp.co.uk   Remove my gerbil for email replies

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FB - 19 Feb 2004 14:44 GMT
> There doesn't have to be any "sense" in it, it's just the way people
> speak/write.

I see, but there will be a sense in their choice of this or that auxiliary,
I hope. Anyhow, I think I now see Austen's intentions:

I would not wish ==> It is not my intention, but...

I would lay... Still, I don't do that

but

I should scold her myself ==> That is what would certainly happen if...

Theoretically "should" ought to be plain while "would" more emphatic, but as
"would" expresses (according to the traditional rules, perhaps more
fashionable at Jane Austen's time) the speaker's intention, which may or may
not come true, "should" turns out to be still more emphatic, as it simply
expresses what would happen in a certain case. Is this possible?

Bye, FB
Chris Game - 19 Feb 2004 12:19 GMT
> I'm reading "Sense and Sensibility" by Jane Austen and, though I
> have read only some fifty pages so far, I have already found a
> possible peculiarity in Jane Austen's language, concerning her
> usage of should and would.

JA never regarded herself as an authority on grammar though did she?
As she pointed out in a note to her sister Cassandra:
"I do not write for such dull elves
As have not a great deal of ingenuity themselves."

Signature

Chris Game

"Chance favors only the prepared mind." -- Louis Pasteur

Phil C. - 19 Feb 2004 15:20 GMT
>> I'm reading "Sense and Sensibility" by Jane Austen and, though I
>> have read only some fifty pages so far, I have already found a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>"I do not write for such dull elves
>As have not a great deal of ingenuity themselves."

In dramatisations of Jane Austen the characters never abbreviate their
verbs - they say "do not", "will not", "shall not" etc. Does this
reflect how people actually spoke at the time or was it simply that it
wasn't considered proper to abbreviate in writing (as above)?
Signature

Phil C.

FB - 19 Feb 2004 17:12 GMT
> In dramatisations of Jane Austen the characters never abbreviate their
> verbs - they say "do not", "will not", "shall not" etc. Does this
> reflect how people actually spoke at the time or was it simply that it
> wasn't considered proper to abbreviate in writing (as above)?

I have noticed this, too.

Bye, FB
 
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