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Discussion Groups / British English / March 2004An on topic post - please take your digitalis if required...
Hi all, I want to ask a question about English usage. The cross of Jesus. Jesus's cross? or Jesus' cross? Which is correct and why? TIA. Paul... p.s. this is a question originating from the Economist in an article about Mel Gibson's "The Passion of Christ".  Signatureplinehan y_a_h_o_o and d_o_t com C++ Builder 5 SP1, Interbase 6.0.1.6 IBX 5.04 W2K Pro Please do not top-post. "XML avoids the fundamental question of what we should do, by focusing entirely on how we should do it." quote from http://www.metatorial.com At 15:44:36 on Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Paul <paul@not.a.chance.ie> wrote in <MPG.1ab4023b2c87a70c9898f6@news1.eircom.net>: >The cross of Jesus. > >Jesus's cross? >or >Jesus' cross? I would say Jesus' cross. I was taught at school that one didn't allow a possessive to produce three s sounds; so, Jones's shop, but Francis' bike. This would be borne out by the Lord's Prayer including "for Jesus' sake". SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 15:44:36 on Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Paul <paul@not.a.chance.ie> wrote in > <MPG.1ab4023b2c87a70c9898f6@news1.eircom.net>: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > allow a possessive to produce three s sounds; so, Jones's shop, but > Francis' bike. I don't follow that. What's the difference between Jones and Francis that you think they need to be treated differently. > This would be borne out by the Lord's Prayer > including "for Jesus' sake". I suspect that depends on which printing of the Bible you look at. I'd say that all three are acceptable, as, given the alternative form of the name, is "Jesu's cross". -- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site mike-stevens.co.uk I didn't believe in re-incarnation last time, either. >> At 15:44:36 on Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Paul <paul@not.a.chance.ie> wrote in >> <MPG.1ab4023b2c87a70c9898f6@news1.eircom.net>: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> allow a possessive to produce three s sounds; so, Jones's shop, but >> Francis' bike. > I don't follow that. What's the difference between Jones and Francis > that you think they need to be treated differently. Seems pretty straightforward to me, Jones's produces two sibilants, Francis's produces three and sounds clumsy, awkward and unpleasing to the ear. Will that do? > >> At 15:44:36 on Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Paul <paul@not.a.chance.ie> wrote in > >> <MPG.1ab4023b2c87a70c9898f6@news1.eircom.net>: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Francis's produces three and sounds clumsy, awkward and unpleasing to > the ear. Will that do? Right. Got it. I must have been slow. -- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. >> At 15:44:36 on Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Paul <paul@not.a.chance.ie> wrote in >> <MPG.1ab4023b2c87a70c9898f6@news1.eircom.net>: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >I don't follow that. What's the difference between Jones and Francis >that you think they need to be treated differently. Molly has explained that: "Jones" has one "s" sound but "Francis" has two. Unless you think that "Francis" should be pronounced with a hard "c". :) SignatureJohn Hall "[It was] so steep that at intervals the street broke into steps, like a person breaking into giggles or hiccups, and then resumed its sober climb, until it had another fit of steps." Ursula K Le Guin "The Beginning Place" On Saturday, in article <aUmLl5IjEkSAFwpG@jhall.demon.co.uk> > >I don't follow that. What's the difference between Jones and Francis > >that you think they need to be treated differently. > > Molly has explained that: "Jones" has one "s" sound but "Francis" has > two. Unless you think that "Francis" should be pronounced with a hard > "c". :) Well, to be frank... :-P SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "We can no longer stand apart from Europe if we would. Yet we are untrained to mix with our neighbours, or even talk to them". George Macaulay Trevelyan, 1919 >I'd say that all three are acceptable, as, given the alternative form of >the name, is "Jesu's cross". Is Jesu a simple alternative to Jesus or is it an inflection in Greek? Just wondered. When I was a brat forced to go to Sunday school, the very mention of Jesu was enough to start a fit of giggles. SignaturePhil C. > >I'd say that all three are acceptable, as, given the alternative form of > >the name, is "Jesu's cross". > > Is Jesu a simple alternative to Jesus or is it an inflection in Greek? > Just wondered. When I was a brat forced to go to Sunday school, the > very mention of Jesu was enough to start a fit of giggles. As I understand it, and I'm open to correction, the original Jewish form of the name would transliterate as something like "Jeshua", and the final "s" is a Graeco-Latinisation. So I've always taken it that the form "Jesu" is an attempt to be nearer the original. -- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site http://www.mike-stevens.co.uk > As I understand it, and I'm open to correction, the original Jewish > form of the name would transliterate as something like "Jeshua", and > the final "s" is a Graeco-Latinisation. So I've always taken it that > the form "Jesu" is an attempt to be nearer the original. Probably "Yeshu" would be nearer the correct pronunciation. Variants might be "Iesoun" (Jason: "healer") or "Issa". And for what it's worth, "Yeshu" or "Joshua" was quite likely to have been a honorific title of the Messiah after Joshua son of Nun who was the Deliverer, in much the same way as one might speak of an "Arthur" coming again to help Britain in a time of need. Personally, I believe Jesus's real name to have been John. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0y14-0.htm What's the difference between a Leeds barmaid and a Tetley Horse? None: they both pull an awful lot of pints! At 17:10:31 on Sun, 7 Mar 2004, Mike Stevens <mike.fc2@which.net> wrote in <c2fl7t$1qeaco$1@ID-170573.news.uni-berlin.de>: >As I understand it, and I'm open to correction, the original Jewish form >of the name would transliterate as something like "Jeshua", and the >final "s" is a Graeco-Latinisation. So I've always taken it that the >form "Jesu" is an attempt to be nearer the original. I've no evidence, but I've always assumed it was a Latin vocative. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > Hi all, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Paul... American Heritage Dictionary says Jesus' is correct. But I think either one is correct. Vanya AHD: The possessive case of most proper nouns is formed according to the rules for common nouns: (singular) Eliot's novels, Yeats's poetry, Dostoyevsky's biography, Velázquez's paintings; (plural) the McCarthys' and the Williamses' parties, the Schwartzes' trip. By convention, however, certain proper nouns ending in s form the possessive by adding just the apostrophe since adding -'s would make the pronunciation difficult or awkward: Jesus' teachings, Moses' children, Achilles' heel Hercules' strength, Ramses' reign, Xerxes' conquest. At 11:23:09 on Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Vanya <vorotyntsev@yahoo.com> wrote in <c20714d6.0403061123.463141b7@posting.google.com>: >AHD: The possessive case of most proper nouns is formed according to >the rules for common nouns: (singular) Eliot's novels, Yeats's poetry, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >children, Achilles' heel Hercules' strength, Ramses' reign, Xerxes' >conquest. Jesus, Moses, Ramses, Xerxes: no problem. But what's the difficulty with saying Achilles's heel or Hercules's strength? (Other than the common pronunciation "Achilles heel", of course.) SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 11:23:09 on Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Vanya <vorotyntsev@yahoo.com> wrote in > <c20714d6.0403061123.463141b7@posting.google.com>: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > with saying Achilles's heel or Hercules's strength? (Other than the > common pronunciation "Achilles heel", of course.) No difficulty. I've also heard it explained that these names don't take 's because they are figures from antiquity, or gods and prophets. Probably the three s sounds in a row explanation is best. But I don't see how Jesus is more difficult to pronounce than Jesus's. Vanya > Jesus's cross? > or > Jesus' cross? > > Which is correct and why? TIA. Both are correct. I would recommend the latter form though, simply on grounds of euphony. Adrian >> Jesus's cross? >> or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Both are correct. I would recommend the latter form though, simply on > grounds of euphony. Or the sousaphone, of course :-) SignatureJohn Briggs |
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