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Discussion Groups / British English / April 2004Confusable words
I noticed a real schoolboy howler on the BBC News website earlier today. A house was to be 'raised' to the ground. Someone placed too much reliance on spellcheckers, it seems. But it was soon corrected to 'razed'. What's unusual here is that the incorrect word sounds the same as the correct one, but has the opposite meaning: Raise = lift up, set upright, construct Raze = tear down, destroy Can anyone think of another example in which two words have an identical (or similar) pronunciation, but an opposite meaning? "David Picton" <djpicton@bigmailbox.net> > What's unusual here is that the incorrect word sounds the same as the > correct one, but has the opposite meaning: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Can anyone think of another example in which two words have an > identical (or similar) pronunciation, but an opposite meaning? I'll go one better. Twice. to cleave - to split in two to cleave - to stick two things together, as in a wedding to dust - to remove dust from, e.g., to dust the furniture to dust - to coat with a dust, e.g., of icing sugar on a cake > "David Picton" <djpicton@bigmailbox.net> > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > to dust - to remove dust from, e.g., to dust the furniture > to dust - to coat with a dust, e.g., of icing sugar on a cake You're just going to reinvent the long list of contronyms in the AUE FAQ: "What words are their own antonym?" [sic] at <http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxwhatwo.html>. There are even three sets of homophones at the end, one of which is "raise, raze." What might be fun is to see if anyone can come up with additions. How about "check"? -- in a restaurant (at least in the US) it's an invoice; elsewhere it's a payment.  SignatureBob Lieblich Spoilsport At 10:28:13 on Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Robert Lieblich <Robert.Lieblich@Verizon.net> wrote in <406ED80D.7ABDEB36@Verizon.net>: >What might be fun is to see if anyone can come up with additions. >How about "check"? -- in a restaurant (at least in the US) it's an >invoice; elsewhere it's a payment. OK, then, here's one - if I ask you to draw the curtains, are you going to open them or close them? (Of course, it could be that that's UK usage only - I notice this thread is cross-posted transatlantically[1].) [1]My spell-checker suggests "transatlantic ally". It's been listening to too much Bush'n'Blair. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >> What might be fun is to see if anyone can come up with additions. >> How about "check"? -- in a restaurant (at least in the US) it's an >> invoice; elsewhere it's a payment. > > OK, then, here's one - if I ask you to draw the curtains, are you > going to open them or close them? Hmm. This requires some thought. I *think* "draw" would mean "close" here in the US, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear myself use it either way. But most of the time, I use "open" or "close" rather than "draw." And note that with vertical blinds, neither "open" nor "close" necessarily involves drawing. >.......(Of course, it could be that > that's UK usage only - I notice this thread is cross-posted > transatlantically[1].) May I assume you are posting through ucle? Both aue and aeu have "members" from both sides of the pond, so "cross-posting" simply means posting to more than one newsgroup. Also, in aue (and, I think aeu) "transpondian" replaces "transatlantic." I am a Leftpondian; you (apparently) are a Rightpondian. Others are Underpondians or Otherpondians. There are a few other terms used occasionally, too. > [1]My spell-checker suggests "transatlantic ally". It's been > listening to too much Bush'n'Blair. Spell-checkers aren't always up-to-date with what people actually say. Drawing this post to a close, I remain Maria Conlon, Totally-Official AUE Member. > >> What might be fun is to see if anyone can come up with additions. > >> How about "check"? -- in a restaurant (at least in the US) it's an > >> invoice; elsewhere it's a payment. > > > > OK, then, here's one - if I ask you to draw the curtains, are you > > going to open them or close them? > Hmm. This requires some thought. I *think* "draw" would mean "close" > here in the US, but I wouldn't be surprised to hear myself use it either > way. But most of the time, I use "open" or "close" rather than "draw." > And note that with vertical blinds, neither "open" nor "close" > necessarily involves drawing. Horses draw wagons, right? If a horse draws a wagon, is it going uphill or downhill? North or south? Answer: it's irrelevant. To draw is to pull, and the direction doesn't matter. Thus, drawing curtains would be opening them if they're closed, or closing them if they're open. That's why it's used both ways. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > Answer: it's irrelevant. To draw is to pull, and the direction doesn't > matter. Thus, drawing curtains would be opening them if they're closed, > or closing them if they're open. That's why it's used both ways. Yes. I understood that "to draw" in this context was to move by pulling such as horse drawn cart eg. SignatureAlan LeHun Donna Richoux rakstija: >>> OK, then, here's one - if I ask you to draw the curtains, are you >>> going to open them or close them? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > closed, or closing them if they're open. That's why it's used both > ways. In my own experience, which is supported by what seems to be a majority of Google hits, "drawing the drapes" *usually* means closing them, but I see that dictionaries allow for both closing or opening them. I have always pictured a manual handling the process -- you draw or pull the inner edges to close them, but opening them can be more of a pushing action. You know, you sort of push the inner edges to the sides of the window. With modern drapes, you just pull the proper cord, and the drapes do whatever the cord makes them do. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >In my own experience, which is supported by what seems to be a majority of >Google hits, "drawing the drapes" *usually* means closing them, but I see >that dictionaries allow for both closing or opening them. My own, British, experience is the samr. SignatureJohn Hall "I am not young enough to know everything." Oscar Wilde (1854-1900) >>In my own experience, which is supported by what seems to be a majority of >>Google hits, "drawing the drapes" *usually* means closing them, but I see >>that dictionaries allow for both closing or opening them. > >My own, British, experience is the samr. And opening them was sometimes "pulling the curtains". But I was dragged up in the East End of London so don't count that as gospel. And come to think of it I was also sometimes told to "pull the curtains closed". Confusing ain't it. SignatureDave OSOS#24 dswindell.gerbil@tcp.co.uk Remove my gerbil for email replies Yamaha XJ900S & Wessex sidecar, the sexy one Yamaha XJ900F & Watsonian Monaco, the comfortable one http://dswindell.members.beeb.net In alt.english.usage on Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:23:46 -0800 "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> posted: >In my own experience, which is supported by what seems to be a majority of >Google hits, "drawing the drapes" *usually* means closing them, but I see [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >With modern drapes, you just pull the proper cord, and the drapes do >whatever the cord makes them do. The drapes are my slaves, hehehe! No need to boss around or manipulate other people as long as I have my drapes. >Skitt (in Hayward, California) >www.geocities.com/opus731/ s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years At 13:01:42 on Sun, 4 Apr 2004, meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote in <mcf070li77rt9d07pmuj1provdsip1rjks@4ax.com>: >In alt.english.usage on Sat, 3 Apr 2004 13:23:46 -0800 "Skitt" ><skitt99@comcast.net> posted: >>With modern drapes, you just pull the proper cord, and the drapes do >>whatever the cord makes them do. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >No need to boss around or manipulate other people as long as I have my >drapes. One thing I have learned through this thread is that over there (I refuse to say "in Leftpondia", after having had it somewhat patronisingly forced down my throat!) you say "drapes", whereas we in the UK say "curtains". Someone who said "drapes" here would be considered as rather affected. Do you also say "drapes" for non-domestic curtains, such as in a theatre, or round a hospital bed? (From the final drawing of which, I presume, comes the expression "It's curtains for him".) SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > One thing I have learned through this thread is that over there (I > refuse to say "in Leftpondia", after having had it somewhat [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (From the final drawing of which, I presume, comes the expression "It's > curtains for him".) They'd all be curtains for me: domestic, non-domestic, fatal. SignatureSML Dalg! Glidj! Blimlimlim! http://pirate-women.com >> "Skitt" posted: >>> With modern drapes, you just pull the proper cord, and the drapes do >>> whatever the cord makes them do. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > (From the final drawing of which, I presume, comes the expression > "It's curtains for him".) To me, and as it applies to the stuff in homes, drapes are usually made of heavy non-transparent material. Curtains are usually sheer. As I said, this applies only to window treatments in homes. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ In alt.english.usage on Sun, 4 Apr 2004 12:41:46 -0700 "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> posted: >>> "Skitt" posted: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >To me, and as it applies to the stuff in homes, drapes are usually made of >heavy non-transparent material. Curtains are usually sheer. As I said, Or short. >this applies only to window treatments in homes. Window treatments! That's a neologism for sure. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> posted: > > >this applies only to window treatments in homes. > > Window treatments! That's a neologism for sure. What's your Year One cut-off point for neologisms? I'm sure we can find an example of "window treatments" that is older. Google Groups has it in the first year of its archives, 1981. Unless you're thinking of the surprising second definition of "neologism": Date: 1803 1 : a new word, usage, or expression 2 : a meaningless word coined by a psychotic SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux In alt.english.usage on Mon, 5 Apr 2004 13:32:46 +0200 trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) posted: >> "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> posted: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >What's your Year One cut-off point for neologisms? I'm sure we can find Anything after I was born. :) >an example of "window treatments" that is older. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 1 : a new word, usage, or expression > 2 : a meaningless word coined by a psychotic s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) posted: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Anything after I was born. :) I forget. When was that? My little bit of ProQuest shows A colorful leaflet shows you how to achieve attractive window treatments for every room in the house. in _Changing Times_, August, 1957. The leaflet is called "Those Versatile Venetian Blinds". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |A handgun is like a Lawyer. You 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |don't want it lying around where Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the children might be exposed to |it, but when you need one, you need kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |it RIGHT NOW, and nothing else will (650)857-7572 |do. | Bill McNutt http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) posted: > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > in _Changing Times_, August, 1957. The leaflet is called "Those > Versatile Venetian Blinds". OED2, under "pelmet", has this citation: 1908 Ladies' Field 24 Oct. 318/2 (caption) Window Treatment: Pelmet and Curtains in Shadow Damask. Earlier still is this multi-deck headline from the New York Times of Nov. 10, 1895: NEW UPHOLSTERY POINTS Decline of the Reign of Faded and Neutral Effects. GROWING USE OF POSITIVE COLORS New Window Treatments -- Novelties in Grilles -- The Narrowing Divan -- Canopy Scheme -- Japanese Decoration Teachings. In alt.english.usage on Wed, 07 Apr 2004 01:43:41 -0400 Ben Zimmer <bgzimmer@midway.uchicago.edu> posted: >> > trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) posted: >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> I forget. When was that? 1947. I don't say it directly, but almost every post has how many years I lived where. I do that in this ng only, so when I say what English is, people will know where I have learned it. >> My little bit of ProQuest shows >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> in _Changing Times_, August, 1957. The leaflet is called "Those >> Versatile Venetian Blinds". That's after I was born. >OED2, under "pelmet", has this citation: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The Narrowing Divan -- Canopy Scheme -- Japanese > Decoration Teachings. But these aren't. Thanks. So it's not a neologism by my standard. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years Molly Mockford typed thus: > At 13:01:42 on Sun, 4 Apr 2004, meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote in > <mcf070li77rt9d07pmuj1provdsip1rjks@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > (From the final drawing of which, I presume, comes the expression "It's > curtains for him".) In case you were serious - "curtains" is almost certainly a theatrical term, meaning "the end". SignatureDavid ===== >Molly Mockford typed thus: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >In case you were serious - "curtains" is almost certainly a >theatrical term, meaning "the end". A long buried memory stirred. After prolonged goggling I was reminded that the curtains across the front of a stage are sometimes known as the (House) Tabs - abbreviation for "tableau curtains". "tableau curtains" plural noun (in the theatre) a pair of curtains drawn open by diagonal cords fixed to the lower inner corners. [NODE] SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) In alt.english.usage on Sun, 04 Apr 2004 23:34:15 +0100 Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> posted: >>Molly Mockford typed thus: >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >"tableau curtains" plural noun (in the theatre) a pair of curtains drawn >open by diagonal cords fixed to the lower inner corners. [NODE] And to the whole diagonal, with an attached sleeve or something, I'm sure. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years >>A long buried memory stirred. After prolonged goggling I was reminded that That should have been 'googling', although I did look in one or two books as well. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > One thing I have learned through this thread is that over there (I > refuse to say "in Leftpondia", after having had it somewhat > patronisingly forced down my throat!) <Sigh> I suppose you are referring to my reply to your (earlier) post. Believe it or not, all I was trying to do was to acquaint you a bit with the terminology in aue. That way, if you encountered it, you'd know what the posters were talking about. I'm surprised that you felt something was being "forced down [your] throat." I wonder if there is an emoticon that stands for "this is just a friendly offer of information." Maria Conlon "Some guy hit my fender the other day, and I said unto him, 'Be fruitful and multiply.' But not in those words." -- Woody Allen At 18:44:19 on Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Maria Conlon <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote in <c4q33l$2jq4qd$1@ID-113669.news.uni-berlin.de>: >> One thing I have learned through this thread is that over there (I >> refuse to say "in Leftpondia", after having had it somewhat [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the terminology in aue. That way, if you encountered it, you'd know what >the posters were talking about. You must have missed my reply saying that was did indeed already familiar with that terminology, which is far from unique to aue/aue. (However, if I were participating in a thread cross-posted to another group which I felt might not understand terms which seen to be in-jokes in the newsgroup from which I was posting, I suspect that I would quite simply eschew the use of such terms in that particular thread.) >I'm surprised that you felt something was being "forced down [your] >throat." I wonder if there is an emoticon that stands for "this is just >a friendly offer of information." Perhaps, also, we need an emoticon to stand for "irony alert" - other than the simple exclamation mark which I hoped would fill that purpose. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) At 07:57:08 on Mon, 5 Apr 2004, Molly Mockford <nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote in <WtE7nJaENQcAFw6d@molly.mockford>: >You must have missed my reply saying that was did indeed already >familiar with that terminology, Apologies for the garbling! I must have been hovering between "I was indeed already familiar" and "I did indeed already know", I think. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) On Monday, in article <WtE7nJaENQcAFw6d@molly.mockford> > At 18:44:19 on Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Maria Conlon > <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Perhaps, also, we need an emoticon to stand for "irony alert" - other > than the simple exclamation mark which I hoped would fill that purpose. Ah but, Molly, these are Merkins, who have absolutely no sense whatsoever of irony. Surely you'd have recognized that facet by now? Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". >>> I'm surprised that you felt something was being "forced down [your] >>> throat." I wonder if there is an emoticon that stands for "this is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Ah but, Molly, these are Merkins, who have absolutely no sense > whatsoever of irony. Surely you'd have recognized that facet by now? I sure can't figure irony out. British irony, that is. Some days, UK posters say "irony" when I would say "sarcasm." Other days, they say "irony" when I would say "Oops, I said that wrong" or even "Whoa! That sounds rather rude." I often wonder if the British are really the ones who don't recognize "irony." Wouldn't *that* be... well, you probably know what I was going to say. (Facet? I might have used "fact," not that it is a fact, and not that "facet" couldn't be used. <smile>) Maria Conlon Posting through aue Michigan USA On Tuesday, in article <c4vfpi$2mvfv2$1@ID-113669.news.uni-berlin.de> > (Facet? I might have used "fact," not that it is a fact, and not that > "facet" couldn't be used. <smile>) I meant facet, as in "facet of the Merkin psyche". Of course, it could just have been a brilliant cut. Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". >> (Facet? I might have used "fact," not that it is a fact, and not that >> "facet" couldn't be used. <smile>) > > I meant facet, as in "facet of the Merkin psyche". > > Of course, it could just have been a brilliant cut. Mine? Why, thank you. Maria Conlon Occasionally Inchoate In alt.english.usage on Sun, 4 Apr 2004 20:23:14 +0100 Molly Mockford <nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> posted: >At 13:01:42 on Sun, 4 Apr 2004, meirman <meirman@invalid.com> wrote in ><mcf070li77rt9d07pmuj1provdsip1rjks@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >the UK say "curtains". Someone who said "drapes" here would be >considered as rather affected. Well I only said drapes because that was the word used in the post I was answering. Especially for humor, it's no good to change the words. I wanted to say draperies. I would also use the word curtains sometimes, cafe curtains, bedroom curtains, "It's curtains for you", the stage curtain. Draperies are specifically the floor length curtains used in living rooms. > Do you also say "drapes" for >non-domestic curtains, such as in a theatre, or round a hospital bed? >(From the final drawing of which, I presume, comes the expression "It's >curtains for him".) I didn't read these 4 lines until after I wrote what I have above. And as you can see, I got all your examples and said No. And David is surely right about "It's curtains for him." It's not about death, it's about "the End". s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years >In alt.english.usage on Sun, 4 Apr 2004 20:23:14 +0100 Molly Mockford ><nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> posted: [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] >And David is surely right about "It's curtains for him." It's not >about death, it's about "the End". IMHO it has to be theatrical because hospital beds have screens, not curtains. To a speaker of 'restricted code' English ( the language of the English working class), horses pull carts (they can't draw them, they because they can't hold crayons); curtains are pulled; a bath is filled; stage curtains go up or come down and hospital screens are put around the bed. SignatureJohn [Re "curtains"] > IMHO it has to be theatrical because hospital beds have screens, not > curtains. To a speaker of 'restricted code' English ( the language of > the English working class), horses pull carts (they can't draw them, > they because they can't hold crayons); curtains are pulled; a bath is > filled; stage curtains go up or come down and hospital screens are put > around the bed. I agree, more or less, on all except the hospital screens. I haven't seen a "hospital screen" in Real Life, ever. The hospitals here (Michigan, USA) have curtains attached to a track on the ceiling. They are pulled open or closed around the bed. Screens would probably be nicer, but I'll probably never know for sure. Maria Conlon Responding through aue. >[Re "curtains"] >> IMHO it has to be theatrical because hospital beds have screens, not [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >are pulled open or closed around the bed. Screens would probably be >nicer, but I'll probably never know for sure. In my limited experience, hospital beds in the UK have curtains of the type you describe. They are easy to deploy, and take up almost no space when not in use. I don't recall ever seeing screens round a bed. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) | >[Re "curtains"] | >> IMHO it has to be theatrical because hospital beds have screens, not [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] | you describe. They are easy to deploy, and take up almost no space when not | in use. I don't recall ever seeing screens round a bed. You are all a bit young arn't you! Back in the 40s and 50s movable screens were dead common. Then someone worked out that the nurses spent half their time moving the screens around beds. So they introduced cirtains to save nurses time. SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Sick of Direct Marketing telephone calls and silent calls? They use a computer which phones many numbers, but talk to only one. Register your: real name, tel number, snail mail address, with Telephone Preference Service, tps@dma.org.uk > Peter Duncanson >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > spent half their time moving the screens around beds. So they > introduced cirtains to save nurses time. Don't know about the others, but yes, I'm a bit young. (I just don't know which bit.) I was never in a hospital as a patient until my children were born (in the 1970s). The times I visited people, there were curtains, as I recall. I may have seen screens around the beds in movies, but that's it. Maria Conlon Responding through aue. Michigan, USA. >| >[Re "curtains"] >| >> IMHO it has to be theatrical because hospital beds have screens, not [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >time moving the screens around beds. So they introduced cirtains to save >nurses time. I survived from 1937 to the early 60s without being in a hospital either as a patient or a visitor, so I'll bow to your experience of screens. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > I survived from 1937 to the early 60s without being in a hospital either as > a patient or a visitor, so I'll bow to your experience of screens. Whereas I spent time in several hospitals in the 1960s. The older ones used movable screens, which were parked at the end of the ward when not in use. The newer ones (generally built in the '60s) had curtains hung from a U rail above the bed. These parked to one side of the bed when not in use. I suspect that, as hospitals have been updated, the movable screens have gone out of general use. Though I think there may still be a use for them on an ad-hoc basis. ------- GC On Tuesday, in article <qv257058425tsijb2jufu46jbtsphlnh91@4ax.com> > >[Re "curtains"] > >> IMHO it has to be theatrical because hospital beds have screens, not [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > you describe. They are easy to deploy, and take up almost no space when not > in use. I don't recall ever seeing screens round a bed. Indeed that is the situation; however, hospital staff will [probably] still refer to them as "screens" since that was the terminology back in the days when there were indeed physical, floor-standing, screens for deployment around a bed. As in "Nurse, the screens!". [Other archaisms remain in many aspects of life in Rightpondia, including in hospitals. For instance, we almost always refer to an Operating Theatre (often omitting the "Operating") whereas Leftpondia tends to have an "OR". It's many a decade since operations were conducted in an (amphi)theatrical situation for teaching, and yet the usage persists.] ["Ooh, Matron".] Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". >[Other archaisms remain in many aspects of life in Rightpondia, including >in hospitals. For instance, we almost always refer to an Operating >Theatre (often omitting the "Operating") whereas Leftpondia tends to have >an "OR". It's many a decade since operations were conducted in an >(amphi)theatrical situation for teaching, and yet the usage persists.] Yes. However, in a teaching hospital, operations will be observed by students. With the students adjacent to the surgeon, I suppose it is more of a theatre-in-the-round, or an "audience on the stage situation" (or whatever the theatrical term is for that). SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>[Other archaisms remain in many aspects of life in Rightpondia, including >>in hospitals. For instance, we almost always refer to an Operating [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >a theatre-in-the-round, or an "audience on the stage situation" (or whatever >the theatrical term is for that). In the NHS and private hospitals I've had operations in during the past 8 years, the students watched on CCTV. The operating theatres were too small for audiences. As to curtains versus screens, I was in an NHS public ward only for two nights (the rest were single-occupancy rooms, including private facilities in NHS hospitals), and that ward had sliding curtains suspended from its ceiling to isolate beds. The last time I remember seeing screens was in a Paris hospital in 1981. The building was probably 18th century, or very early 19th, and its ceilings were too high for curtains. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >>>[Other archaisms remain in many aspects of life in Rightpondia, including >>>in hospitals. For instance, we almost always refer to an Operating [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >years, the students watched on CCTV. The operating theatres were too small >for audiences. The only time I was in an operating theatre was for the removal of a lump under the skin to check that it was benign. The whole business would have *not* made good television. I walked into the theatre, which seemed much too large for such minor op, and climbed on to the table as instructed by a nurse who was the only other person in the room. As soon as I was lying on my side I heard people come into the room behind me. I gathered from the conversation that they were the surgeon and some medical students. Most of the time was taken up by conversation between the surgeon and the students. They left the room leaving just me and the nurse. I climbed down from the table and went home. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>>>[Other archaisms remain in many aspects of life in Rightpondia, including >>>>in hospitals. For instance, we almost always refer to an Operating [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >the surgeon and the students. They left the room leaving just me and the >nurse. I climbed down from the table and went home. When I lived in Chiswick, there was a large medical centre with about 20 doctors in 5 or 6 practices sharing the facilities, with a common filing and reception system. They also had the local Social Services on site, plus a dentist and chiropodist. Until about 1995, when he retired, my own GP used to perform minor ops such as that one himself, aided by a nurse. There is no such facility here in Hoddesdon, and all such surgery is performed in hospitals some distance away, either by booking as an outpatient, or in the A&E department if it's an emergency. In the two hospitals where I had my main surgery performed, they had converted the old large operating theatres into lots of small ones, so that half a dozen operations could be performed simultaneously, to maximise use of facilities and surgeons. Even with several theatres, surgeons had to book theatre time several weeks in advance for non-emergency operations. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England In alt.english.usage on Tue, 06 Apr 2004 22:55:10 +0100 (BST) bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) posted: >On Tuesday, in article > <qv257058425tsijb2jufu46jbtsphlnh91@4ax.com> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >an "OR". It's many a decade since operations were conducted in an >(amphi)theatrical situation for teaching, and yet the usage persists.] Really. I guess it's been a while, but I know they had an operating theatre at Billings Hospital in Chicago. A very good hospital. Or maybe it was the where the autopsies were done that had the theatre. Or both. By calling myself pre-med, I was able to observe an autopsy and on another day, surgery. The first room had them doing brain surgery on a child, so there wasn't enough room to squeeze me or my assigned companion in. But in the second room they were doing abdominal surgery on the Consul General of Sweden in Chicago. Just after we came in, they stopped what they were doing and made room at the table so I and then she could look in. His belly was wide open, each of the the organs were a different color, and they let me bend over to get a better view. I was at a 45 degree angle and going lower when soon I feared I might slip and fall face first into his belly. So I stood up again, but no one told me to. I also did't have on a mask, but I thought it was the proper thing to do to hold my breath. No one suggested that either. I guess all that germ theory is exaggerated. >["Ooh, Matron".] As to screens, they are still needed when the nurses are having sex with the patients. The curtains cover the top of the view and the screens cover the bottom. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years "Maria Conlon" <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote in news:c4stdj$2krtb5$1 @ID-113669.news.uni-berlin.de: > I agree, more or less, on all except the hospital screens. I haven't > seen a "hospital screen" in Real Life, ever. The hospitals here > (Michigan, USA) have curtains attached to a track on the ceiling. They Same here in Canada. > "Maria Conlon" <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote in news:c4stdj$2krtb5$1 > @ID-113669.news.uni-berlin.de: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Same here in Canada. They are still in use in the UK. I've seen them within the last twelve months. The sort of thing I mean can be seen at http://www.medisave.co.uk/product_info.php/cPath/49_59/products_id/278 where it is called a "Curtain Screen". ------- GC In alt.english.usage on Wed, 7 Apr 2004 01:23:17 +0100 "Gwilym Calon" <gwilymc@prowebnet.co.uk> posted: >> "Maria Conlon" <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote in news:c4stdj$2krtb5$1 >> @ID-113669.news.uni-berlin.de: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >http://www.medisave.co.uk/product_info.php/cPath/49_59/products_id/278 where it >is called a "Curtain Screen". What is that, like a wolf-man or an auto-tractor? >------- >GC s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years "Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote... > > >> What might be fun is to see if anyone can come up with additions. > > >> How about "check"? -- in a restaurant (at least in the US) it's [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > closed, or closing them if they're open. That's why it's used both > ways. So if you a hear a Brit talking about "undrawing the curtains", willl they be opening or closing? Matti > "Donna Richoux" <trio@euronet.nl> wrote... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > So if you a hear a Brit talking about "undrawing the curtains", willl > they be opening or closing? For 'draw' OED has << b. to draw the curtain: (a) to draw it back or aside, so as to discover what is behind; (b) to draw it forward in front of an object, so as to cover or conceal it. Also fig. >> Though for 'undraw' it has only << 2. To draw back (esp. a curtain); to unfasten by pulling. >> SignatureJohn Dean Oxford In alt.english.usage on Sat, 3 Apr 2004 22:48:15 +0200 trio@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux) posted: >Horses draw wagons, right? If a horse draws a wagon, is it going uphill >or downhill? North or south? > >Answer: it's irrelevant. To draw is to pull, and the direction doesn't >matter. Thus, drawing curtains would be opening them if they're closed, >or closing them if they're open. That's why it's used both ways. I never say it, but I've seen it in movies a lot, especially years ago. I also think it means to close the curtains, although it may also rely on knowing whether they are open or closed at the time. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years On Saturday, in article <c4n5v5$2j0g8d$1@ID-113669.news.uni-berlin.de> > > OK, then, here's one - if I ask you to draw the curtains, are you > > going to open them or close them? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And note that with vertical blinds, neither "open" nor "close" > necessarily involves drawing. I sometimes wonder at myself for using an archaism in saying to my partner "do you want me to draw you a bath" (or, BOTOF, "will you draw my bath"). AIUI, the terminology comes from the days in which one would have to "draw" (as in "drag up") the water from the well. Now whilst my great-grandmother had a working well in her garden, and used it in the late-1940s when I visited, I've never personally had to use one to get hold of bath-water. And yet I use that archaism. (Getting back to Molly's ticklish poser, then it's obvious that one draws the curtains closed at the end of the day, and vice versa in the morning.) Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". Brian Hamilton Kelly: > (Getting back to Molly's ticklish poser, then it's obvious that > one draws the curtains closed at the end of the day, and vice versa > in the morning.) In other words, in the morning, one draws the day closed at the end of the curtains? That sounds tricky! SignatureMark Brader | lying Toronto | abort reply. msb@vex.net | -- random words at end of a spam message > Brian Hamilton Kelly: > > (Getting back to Molly's ticklish poser, then it's obvious that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > In other words, in the morning, one draws the day closed at the end > of the curtains? That sounds tricky! Not quite, the vice versa is: one days the curtains closed at the end of the draw. In the morning. Furthermore, when you uncoil a Tortoise you must shell him out the water with a scoop, and when you paw a Hedgehog you must drop him on the shell. SignatureGraciously waving her tail -- Donna Richoux >Furthermore, when you uncoil a Tortoise you must shell him out the water >with a scoop, and when you paw a Hedgehog you must drop him on the >shell. And the vessel with the pestle has the potion with the poison ... SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ At 15:14:57 on Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Maria Conlon <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote in <c4n5v5$2j0g8d$1@ID-113669.news.uni-berlin.de>: >May I assume you are posting through ucle? Indeed. That is where the Best People hang out, after all :-) > Both aue and aeu have >"members" from both sides of the pond, so "cross-posting" simply means >posting to more than one newsgroup. Also, in aue (and, I think aeu) >"transpondian" replaces "transatlantic." I am a Leftpondian; you >(apparently) are a Rightpondian. Others are Underpondians or >Otherpondians. There are a few other terms used occasionally, too. Those terms are not exclusive to aue/aeu - many groups use them. But "transpondally" would be a rather infelicitous word; I think "transatlantically" rolls more easily off the tongue. Or perhaps I should say off the keyboard. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 15:14:57 on Sat, 3 Apr 2004, Maria Conlon > <mariaconlon001@hotmail.com> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Those terms are not exclusive to aue/aeu - many groups use them. Yeah, but we used them first. :-) > But "transpondally" would be a rather infelicitous word; I think > "transatlantically" rolls more easily off the tongue. Or perhaps I > should say off the keyboard. The earliest form appears to be "transpondian", which showed up on 12/26/96 in an article by Daan Sandee. I used it, probably unaware of the earlier use on 4/17/97, and also shows up used by Marcus Laker on 8/1 and 9/7. We then appear to have gotten inventive, with "transpondental" (Truly) being coined on 9/27, "transpondential" (Donna) on 10/13, and "transpondinental" (Brian Goggin) on 10/29. Bare "pondian" shows up on 5/7/98 (Mike Connally). "The other side of the Pond" dates back to 6/24/91 (Sam Bassett), which is pretty much as far back as you can go in AUE, although sci.lang has "this side of the pond" back to 10/18/90 (Peter Brooks). Since I'm here: 7/08/97 Left-pondian Steve Lewin 7/30/97 Leftpondian Mike Barnes 9/07/97 Leftpondia Robert Lieblich 9/13/97 Rightpondian P&D Schultz 10/09/97 Rightpondia John Davies 10/11/97 Right-pondian Gwen Lenker <URL:http://groups.google.com/groups? selm=znk81g8d.fsf%40hpl.hp.com> "Left(-)Pondia(n)" and "Right(-)Pondia(n)" don't appear to have shown up elsewhere untill mid-1998. While in that thread I said The "right side of the pond" was first used by Bill Potter on March 5, 1992, by Colin Fine on July 9, 1996, by Yi Lu on April 29, 1997, and then three times in 1998. The "left side of the pond" doesn't show up until May 7, 1996 (Steve MacGregor), then November 26, 1996 (Jitze), two uses in January, 1997, once in June, twice in October, and four times in 1998. <URL:http://groups.google.com/groups? selm=znk81g8d.fsf%40hpl.hp.com> that seems to be AUE-specific. There are three hits for "the right side of the pond" that predate the AUE one, the earliest being 1/26/90 in comp.sys.atari.st, and a couple of dozen for "the left side of the pond", the earliest being 2/2/91 in rec.arts.tv. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There is no such thing as bad data, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |only data from bad homes. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > The "right side of the pond" was first used by Bill Potter on > March 5, 1992, by Colin Fine on July 9, 1996, by Yi Lu on April [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > in comp.sys.atari.st, and a couple of dozen for "the left side of the > pond", the earliest being 2/2/91 in rec.arts.tv. However the use of "pond" in this context is far older than usenet, and I can't arouse much enthusiasm for tracing who in usenet coined which phrase using it. The Oxford English Dictionary (CD ROM version 3.0, 2002), cites the use of "pond" to mean the ocean as far back as 1641, in a context which may or may not refer to the Atlantic, and its specific use to mean the Atlantic from 1832. However the composite form Herring-pond unambiguously means the Atlantic as early as 1689. -- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II web site mike-stevens.co.uk I didn't believe in re-incarnation last time, either. On Wednesday, in article <c4vf6d$2mk2ol$1@ID-170573.news.uni-berlin.de> > However the use of "pond" in this context is far older than usenet, and > I can't arouse much enthusiasm for tracing who in usenet coined which [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Atlantic from 1832. However the composite form Herring-pond > unambiguously means the Atlantic as early as 1689. I have some hundreds of copies of QST (an amateur radio enthusiasts magazine), some of them going back to WWI; there is frequent reference therein to "working across the pond", meaning sending radio signals across the Atlantic Ocean. Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". > However the use of "pond" in this context is far older than usenet, > and I can't arouse much enthusiasm for tracing who in usenet coined [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > mean the Atlantic from 1832. However the composite form > Herring-pond unambiguously means the Atlantic as early as 1689. Before Usenet, though, I only recall hearing it used in phrases like "across the poind" and "this side/the other side of the pond" (all of which date back much further in the Usenet archives). The actual attribution of absolute labels to the different sides (and especially using "left" and "right" rather than "east" and "west") seems to be much more recent and may, indeed, have started here. Proquest shows no hits for any of the variants of Left/Rightpondian. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Oh, forget it: I can't write about 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |this anymore until I find a much Palo Alto, CA 94304 |more sarcastic typeface. | Bill Bickel kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ In alt.english.usage on Wed, 7 Apr 2004 00:41:00 +0100 "Mike Stevens" <mike.fc2@which.net> posted: >> The "right side of the pond" was first used by Bill Potter on >> March 5, 1992, by Colin Fine on July 9, 1996, by Yi Lu on April [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >However the use of "pond" in this context is far older than usenet, and Yes, of course. The only thing being touted here is the use of it in a long adjectival word, such as leftpondian. Lake is an old word too, for Lake Michigan for example, but creating from it Leftlakian for Chicagoans and Rightlakian for Michuganers would be similar. >I can't arouse much enthusiasm for tracing who in usenet coined which >phrase using it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Atlantic from 1832. However the composite form Herring-pond >unambiguously means the Atlantic as early as 1689. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > OK, then, here's one - if I ask you to draw the curtains, are you going > to open them or close them? I'm going to say "There's a cat on my lap -- you do it." As to what it means, you're asking for them to be moved to the other position -- to be opened if now closed, and vice versa. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "He is even more important than my cat, msb@vex.net | which is saying something." --Flash Wilson At 00:48:57 on Sun, 4 Apr 2004, Mark Brader <msb@vex.net> wrote in <106umrpm60sfqbb@corp.supernews.com>: >> OK, then, here's one - if I ask you to draw the curtains, are you going >> to open them or close them? > >I'm going to say "There's a cat on my lap -- you do it." A man after my own heart! TV remote controls were undoubtedly invented by a cat-lover. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >> "David Picton" <djpicton@bigmailbox.net> >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > How about "check"? -- in a restaurant (at least in the US) it's an > invoice; elsewhere it's a payment. By coincidence, one occurred on TV tonight. In a quiz show teams answered questions with one team eliminated at the end of each round. Since no visible record of scores was kept, teams wouldn't necessarily know how well they'd done. At the end of one round, the Quizmaster asked one team 'Do you think you're through to the next round?' and a team member replied 'I'm certain we're through' in a lugubrious tone of voice which his team-mates picked up (and laughed at) but the Quizmaster didn't. So - through - having succeeded, having failed. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford "John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote... > >> "David Picton" <djpicton@bigmailbox.net> > >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Quizmaster didn't. > So - through - having succeeded, having failed. Something similar happened to me this morning, funnily enough. I was shopping in Usk with my wife, and we were talking about the butcher's where she'd just bought some sausages. She said that they were the only remaining butcher, the one we used to use having packed up and moved to a neighbouring town. I asked her some question concerning "the one that's left", by which I meant the remaining one -- but she understandably assumed I was asking about the one which had gone. Matti > "John Dean" <john-dean@frag.lineone.net> wrote... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > -- but she understandably assumed I was asking about the one which > had gone. I just thought of anpther one. Overlook - to have a commanding view of sth / to be unable to see sth. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > I just thought of anpther one. > Overlook - to have a commanding view of sth / to be unable to see sth. Here's a more modern one, or at least a twist on what the thread is about: my TV announced "Henry VIII will be concluded at 8.30 tonight", but what they meant was that the final episode of Henry VII would start at 8.30. SignatureRob Bannister > > "David Picton" <djpicton@bigmailbox.net> > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > Raise = lift up, set upright, construct > > > Raze = tear down, destroy [snip] > You're just going to reinvent the long list of contronyms in the AUE > FAQ: "What words are their own antonym?" [sic] at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > How about "check"? -- in a restaurant (at least in the US) it's an > invoice; elsewhere it's a payment. Also (according to the OED) Check/cheque: counterfoil (original sense), form used for payment (modern sense) On the same theme as "bad" meaning "good" in US slang: wicked: evil, very good (UK slang) bee's knees: useless (in original phrase "as weak as a bee's knees"), outstandingly good ("it's the bee's knees") (UK/US informal). At 04:35:43 on Mon, 5 Apr 2004, David Picton <djpicton@bigmailbox.net> wrote in <2ad9e934.0404050335.56302efe@posting.google.com>: >On the same theme as "bad" meaning "good" in US slang: >wicked: evil, very good (UK slang) >bee's knees: useless (in original phrase "as weak as a bee's knees"), >outstandingly good ("it's the bee's knees") (UK/US informal). In the 60s/70s, we would say "chuffed" meaning "pleased". This must have been pretty confusing to older ex-servicement, who used the same word to mean "displeased". SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >> On the same theme as "bad" meaning "good" in US slang: >> wicked: evil, very good (UK slang) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have been pretty confusing to older ex-servicement, who used the same > word to mean "displeased". And in the USA, most people would be wondering what you are talking about. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >You're just going to reinvent the long list of contronyms in the AUE >FAQ: "What words are their own antonym?" [sic] at ><http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxwhatwo.html>. There >are even three sets of homophones at the end, one of which is >"raise, raze." Are we sure about the spelling "contronym": http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutwords/contranym Perhaps there are two spellings, each equally acceptable. Googling: Results 1 - 10 of about 106 for contronym Results 1 - 10 of about 370 for contranym >What might be fun is to see if anyone can come up with additions. My suggestion, which may not be original, is "original". R. > >You're just going to reinvent the long list of contronyms in the AUE > >FAQ: "What words are their own antonym?" [sic] at [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Results 1 - 10 of about 106 for contronym > Results 1 - 10 of about 370 for contranym The AUE FAQ follows the spelling used by Richard Lederer, who coined the term "contronym" in his book _Crazy English_ (1989). Not long thereafter, "contranym" emerged as an alternate spelling (e.g., in the rec.puzzles FAQ). We've discussed "contronym" vs. "contranym" on various occasions, as in this thread: http://groups.google.com/groups?th=9ca4f8486d6750ef A much older designation is "Janus word". I don't know when exactly the term was coined -- The Oxford Companion to the English Language marks it as "20C", while OED2 lists the compound under "Janus" without supplying a citation (though the entry for "factualness" includes a citation from 1953). A few months ago, there was an AUE discussion of "stay the course" as a kind of historical contronym -- originally meaning "to stop or check the course (of something)", the phrase came to mean "to persevere to the end" [1]. William Safire happened to make a query about this phrase in his "On Language" column, and my response (based on the AUE discussion) ended up appearing in his column [2], though Safire prefers "Janus word" to "contr-o/a-nym". [1] http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3FD76EDB.FB391D95@midway.uchicago.edu [2] http://www.iht.com/articles/124575.html > You're just going to reinvent the long list of contronyms in the AUE > FAQ: "What words are their own antonym?" [sic] at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > How about "check"? -- in a restaurant (at least in the US) it's an > invoice; elsewhere it's a payment. Who is the gatekeeper for the list? Several promising additions have been mentioned in this thread, including: check = bill, payment of bill overlook = to observe or command a view of, to fail to notice through = [from M-W10] -prep: used as a function word to indicate acceptance or approval especially by an official body <got the bill through the legislature> -adj: arrived at completion or accomplishment <is through with the job> -adj: washed-up, finished And another one occurred to me this morning: jibe = to agree with, to scoff at (Many of the other suggestions were already on the list: bad, dust, left, oversight, and cleave, for instance.) -skipka > > You're just going to reinvent the long list of contronyms in the AUE > > FAQ: "What words are their own antonym?" [sic] at [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Who is the gatekeeper for the list? Mark Israel, apparently. The list doesn't seem to have been updated since 1997. -skipka 2 > > > You're just going to reinvent the long list of > > > contronyms in the AUE FAQ: "What words are their own > > > antonym?" [sic] at <http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxwhatwo.html>. > > > There are even three sets of homophones at the end, > > > one of which is "raise, raze." > > > What might be fun is to see if anyone can come up with > > > additions. How about "check"? -- in a restaurant (at > > > least in the US) it's an invoice; elsewhere it's a > > > payment. > > Who is the gatekeeper for the list? > Mark Israel, apparently. The list doesn't seem to have > been updated since 1997. It's more accurate to say that Mike Barnes, the webmaster of the AUE Web site, is the gatekeeper. Mark Israel's FAQ has been frequently updated since Mark last revised it in 1997, and I would expect the AUE webmaster to welcome suggestions for additional updates. There have been occasional discussions of contronyms in AUE over the years, both questioning some of the contronym entries in the FAQ and suggesting additions to the list. Google Groups probably knows about these discussions. Then there are the "defaqto FAQs", Donna Richoux's Intro documents. If anyone has a list of contronyms to add, Donna might be interested in adding it to one of her documents. David Picton typed thus: > I noticed a real schoolboy howler on the BBC News website earlier > today. A house was to be 'raised' to the ground. Someone placed too [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Can anyone think of another example in which two words have an > identical (or similar) pronunciation, but an opposite meaning? How about "cleave" and, er, "cleave"? To cut into two, or to cling on tightly. SignatureDavid ===== > David Picton typed thus: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > How about "cleave" and, er, "cleave"? To cut into two, or to cling > on tightly. It's still possible to stop reinventing the wheel: <http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxwhatwo.html>. SignatureBob Lieblich Killjoy Robert Lieblich typed thus: > > David Picton typed thus: > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > It's still possible to stop reinventing the wheel: > <http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxwhatwo.html>. Embarrassingly, I have not yet committed the whole FAQ to memory. I shall try to do better in future. SignatureDavid ===== > Robert Lieblich typed thus: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > > > Can anyone think of another example in which two words have an > > > > identical (or similar) pronunciation, but an opposite meaning? Here's another contranym/homonym combo to add to your list: reckless/wreckless > > > How about "cleave" and, er, "cleave"? To cut into two, or to cling > > > on tightly. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Embarrassingly, I have not yet committed the whole FAQ to memory. I > shall try to do better in future. In our last episode, <2ad9e934.0404030644.c0bc1d0@posting.google.com>, the lovely and talented David Picton broadcast on alt.usage.english: > I noticed a real schoolboy howler on the BBC News website earlier > today. A house was to be 'raised' to the ground. Someone placed too > much reliance on spellcheckers, it seems. But it was soon corrected > to 'razed'. Here in Texas we are not allowed "razed to the ground" either, owing to the redundancy thing. SignatureLars Eighner -finger for geek code- eighner@io.com http://www.io.com/~eighner/ "The very essence of the creative is its novelty, and hence we have no standard by which to judge it." --Carl R. Rogers, On Becoming a Person > In our last episode, > <2ad9e934.0404030644.c0bc1d0@posting.google.com>, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Here in Texas we are not allowed "razed to the ground" either, owing > to the redundancy thing. Actually the corrected report did say "razed to the ground" which is quite acceptable in the UK. In a spoken report, I would argue that the phrase is better than simply "razed" because it gives context, avoiding the possibility of confusion between the two verbs. >I noticed a real schoolboy howler on the BBC News website earlier >today. A house was to be 'raised' to the ground. Someone placed too >much reliance on spellcheckers, it seems. But it was soon corrected >to 'razed'. ISTR this howler was used as a joke in Sellar and Yeatman's great "1006 and All That". SignatureJohn Hall "He crams with cans of poisoned meat The subjects of the King, And when they die by thousands G.K.Chesterton: Why, he laughs like anything." from "Song Against Grocers" >>I noticed a real schoolboy howler on the BBC News website earlier >>today. A house was to be 'raised' to the ground. Someone placed too [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >ISTR this howler was used as a joke in Sellar and Yeatman's great "1006 >and All That". Correction: "1066 and All That". SignatureJohn Hall "He crams with cans of poisoned meat The subjects of the King, And when they die by thousands G.K.Chesterton: Why, he laughs like anything." from "Song Against Grocers" >> ISTR this howler was used as a joke in Sellar and Yeatman's great >> "1006 and All That". > > Correction: "1066 and All That". Well, I wondered. Actually, I wondered what significance "1006" has. My first license plate (for my first car) had the "number" HU-1066. To remember it easily, I thought of "Hastings." That's all it took for me to remember the whole number. (I never did figure out where the "U" fit in, but it didn't matter.) SignatureMaria Conlon When it's you against the world, back the world. (Zappa) >My first license plate (for my first car) had the "number" HU-1066. > >To remember it easily, I thought of "Hastings." That's all it took for >me to remember the whole number. (I never did figure out where the "U" >fit in, but it didn't matter.) How about Harold was Undone in 1066? SignatureJohn Hall Weep not for little Leonie Abducted by a French Marquis! Though loss of honour was a wrench Just think how it's improved her French. Harry Graham (1874-1936) On Saturday, in article <c4n88v$2l4eg4$1@ID-113669.news.uni-berlin.de> > My first license plate (for my first car) had the "number" HU-1066. > > To remember it easily, I thought of "Hastings." That's all it took for > me to remember the whole number. (I never did figure out where the "U" > fit in, but it didn't matter.) I've always felt that the powers that be at the Ministry of Transport, pre-WWII (which is when the majority of road numbers were allocated in the UK) missed an opportunity when "naming" the road which leads from York to Bridlington, via the village of Stamford Bridge. This road obviously[1] has an A1xx[x] number. Actually, it's the A166; however, since Harold defeated the Danes at the Battle of Stamford Bridge, before rushing south to lose to William the Bastard, all in 1066, I feel the road should have been called the A1066. [1] In Great Britain (i.e. excluding NI), the road numbering actually follows a logical structure, although this is not obvious unless one understands it. In England (which, for this purpose, includes Wales) there were originally six primary main roads, all radiating from London: A1 "The Great North Road" A2 Kent and Dover A3 Portsmouth A4 "The Great West Road" A5 Birmingham (well, Lichfield really) and Holyhead A6 The western route to the north, ending in Carlisle All roads that start in the "sector" between the A1 and the A2 have numbers of the form A1x[x[x]]; those between the A2 and A3 have A2x[x[x]], and so on. Roads in Scotland are similarly numbered, in the sectors from the A7 to the A8, the A8 to the A9, and the A9 to the A7 (all of which radiate from Edinburgh). Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". > In England (which, for this purpose, includes Wales) There are no purposes for which England includes Wales- the phrase is "England and Wales". ------- GC >> In England (which, for this purpose, includes Wales) > >There are no purposes for which England includes Wales- the phrase is "England >and Wales". In any statute passed between 1746 and 1967 (when this slur on the principality was removed by the Welsh Language Act) the term "England" includes Wales. To the extent that such statutes still have to be interpreted, such a purpose survives. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". > >> In England (which, for this purpose, includes Wales) > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > includes Wales. To the extent that such statutes still have to be > interpreted, such a purpose survives. Diolch yn fawr. However I'm unsure whether the road numbering system (in question here) was the subject of such a staute in that time period. Anyway, it's all past history now and we can all be friends once again. ------- GC "Gwilym Calon" <gwilymc@prowebnet.co.uk> wrote... > Diolch yn fawr. [...] Anyway, > it's all past history now and we can all be friends once again. You started it! Matti > "Gwilym Calon" <gwilymc@prowebnet.co.uk> wrote... > > > > Diolch yn fawr. [...] Anyway, > > it's all past history now and we can all be friends once again. > > You started it! If by [you] you mean the Sais, I agree. Edward I as I recall. ------- GC > [1] In Great Britain (i.e. excluding NI), the road numbering actually > follows a logical structure, although this is not obvious unless one [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the A8, the A8 to the A9, and the A9 to the A7 (all of which radiate from > Edinburgh). For more about Britain's unusual system for numbering the roads, and some anomalies which show that it's even less logical than Brian indicated, see http://euclid.colorado.edu/~rmg/roads/numbering.html and other sites, to which there are links on http://www.cbrd.co.uk/links/ >[1] In Great Britain (i.e. excluding NI), the road numbering actually >follows a logical structure, although this is not obvious unless one >understands it. In England (which, for this purpose, includes Wales) >there were originally six primary main roads, all radiating from London: > A1 "The Great North Road" I don't think the Great North Road can fully be identified as the modern A1. Not only have there been many alterations in modern times but there never was a single Great North Road. One version of it is now the A15 up through Lincoln but this declined after the Trent was bridged at Newark. SignaturePhil C. >>[1] In Great Britain (i.e. excluding NI), the road numbering actually >>follows a logical structure, although this is not obvious unless one [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > now the A15 up through Lincoln but this declined after the Trent was > bridged at Newark. Talking of roads: I thought of you last week, Phil, as I zipped round the Hanger Lane Gyratory system... SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>[1] In Great Britain (i.e. excluding NI), the road numbering actually >>>follows a logical structure, although this is not obvious unless one [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Talking of roads: I thought of you last week, Phil, as I zipped round >the Hanger Lane Gyratory system... (Trimmed to ucle) That's kind. Those were the days. Ucle was fun then. SignaturePhil C. >>>>[1] In Great Britain (i.e. excluding NI), the road numbering actually >>>>follows a logical structure, although this is not obvious unless one [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > That's kind. Those were the days. Ucle was fun then. It was, wasn't it? Why is it that, as one gets older, fun seems to become harder to find? It's even more difficult to make my students laugh - but perhaps I just need new jokes... SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>[1] In Great Britain (i.e. excluding NI), the road numbering actually >>>>>follows a logical structure, although this is not obvious unless one [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >become harder to find? It's even more difficult to make my students >laugh - but perhaps I just need new jokes... Ah but your a proper grown up making a valuable contribution to society. Fun is never far away for time-wasters like me. But the ambience just isn't there on ucle. SignaturePhil C. >>>>>>[1] In Great Britain (i.e. excluding NI), the road numbering actually >>>>>>follows a logical structure, although this is not obvious unless one [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > society. Fun is never far away for time-wasters like me. But the > ambience just isn't there on ucle. Who are you calling a grown up? I'm deeply insulted! Aue's not what it was, either. Ou sont les ngs d'antan? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>>>[1] In Great Britain (i.e. excluding NI), the road numbering actually >>>>>>>follows a logical structure, although this is not obvious unless one [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >Who are you calling a grown up? I'm deeply insulted! Aue's not what it >was, either. I'm terribly sorry. That was thoughtless of me. >Ou sont les ngs d'antan? Wasn't he one of Three Musketeers? SignaturePhil C. >>>[1] In Great Britain (i.e. excluding NI), the road numbering actually >>>follows a logical structure, although this is not obvious unless one [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Talking of roads: I thought of you last week, Phil, as I zipped round >the Hanger Lane Gyratory system... I don't think I've ever 'zipped' *around* the HLGS. 'Crawled' is the more usual verb, unless one uses the underpass to go west. I remember the bit leading to Ealing as a major bottleneck. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Quiet part of Hertfordshire England >... >ISTR this howler was used as a joke in Sellar and Yeatman's great "1006 >and All That". Confusable people... I initially wondered why I didn't remember writing that, then I noticed there's another JH writing from the Old Country. I'm now JWH. SignatureJohn W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> Cochrane, Alberta, Canada. "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age" >>... >>ISTR this howler was used as a joke in Sellar and Yeatman's great "1006 [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >noticed there's another JH writing from the Old Country. >I'm now JWH. Thank you. Of the three groups this is crossposted to, I only normally post to ucle, so I hope that confusion will be minimal. On yet another newsgroup, I've been confused with a John F Hall. SignatureJohn Hall Weep not for little Leonie Abducted by a French Marquis! Though loss of honour was a wrench Just think how it's improved her French. Harry Graham (1874-1936) > I noticed a real schoolboy howler on the BBC News website earlier > today. A house was to be 'raised' to the ground. Someone placed too [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Can anyone think of another example in which two words have an > identical (or similar) pronunciation, but an opposite meaning? My favourite is pernicious - it also means 'pearly'. Alan >> I noticed a real schoolboy howler on the BBC News website earlier >> today. A house was to be 'raised' to the ground. Someone placed too [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >My favourite is pernicious - it also means 'pearly'. I can't find a reference for that- do you have one? -- john > >> I noticed a real schoolboy howler on the BBC News website earlier > >> today. A house was to be 'raised' to the ground. Someone placed too [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I can't find a reference for that- do you have one? My apologies: it has two meanings all right; but the rarer one is 'swift'. I am very sorry about that as I can see it might have caused some fruitless delving in books or on the net. It was entirely my faulty memory - rather disturbing for me actually! From the _OED_: pernicious, a.1 [ad. F. pernicieux (13-14th c. in Hatz.-Darm.), ad. L. pernici{omac}s-us destructive, baneful, ruinous, f. pernici{emac}s destruction, ruin, death, f. PER- 2 + nex, nec-em death, destruction: cf. pernec{amac}re to kill outright.] a. Having the quality of destroying; tending to destroy, kill, or injure; destructive, ruinous; fatal. pernicious, a.2 rare. [f. L. pernix, pern{imac}ci- nimble, quick, fleet (f. PER- 2 + n{imac}ti, nix-us to press forward, strive) + -OUS.] Rapid, swift. _NSOED_ and _OED_ call the second "pernicious" rare. _W3NID_ calls it archaic. Alan O'Brien typed thus: > > >> I noticed a real schoolboy howler on the BBC News website earlier > > >> today. A house was to be 'raised' to the ground. Someone placed too [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > _NSOED_ and _OED_ call the second "pernicious" rare. _W3NID_ calls it > archaic. So which version relates to "pernicious anemia"? Is this disease swift or injurious? SignatureDavid ===== > Alan O'Brien typed thus: > [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > So which version relates to "pernicious anemia"? Is this disease > swift or injurious? Apparently it was 'pernicious' because it was fatal. Now, of course, it is susceptible to treatment. Luckily, few of the sufferers have access to the OED so Doctors can tell them anything they like. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >I noticed a real schoolboy howler on the BBC News website earlier >today. A house was to be 'raised' to the ground. Someone placed too [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Can anyone think of another example in which two words have an >identical (or similar) pronunciation, but an opposite meaning? Cleave? Oversight? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >I noticed a real schoolboy howler on the BBC News website earlier >today. A house was to be 'raised' to the ground. Someone placed too [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Can anyone think of another example in which two words have an >identical (or similar) pronunciation, but an opposite meaning? I noiced an inadvertent example of an expression with contradictory meanings this morning in a TV headline. It said "Self harm. Can you beat it?" SignaturePhil C. |
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