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Discussion Groups / British English / June 2004Bitter, or Bitters?
I'm curious as to what the rule is on this, I find myself using the latter (Bitters): - The Pub has a wide range of Bitters. However it also sounds okay to say: - The Pub has a wide range of Bitter. Which is the correct usage? Thanks, Phil Winstanley. > I'm curious as to what the rule is on this, I find myself using the > latter (Bitters): - [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The Pub has a wide range of Bitter. > Which is the correct usage? Both are correct, but the main problem is adequately distinguishing "bitters" (e.g. Angostura) from "bitter" (beer).  SignatureJohn Briggs "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> - a made-up name if ever I've heard one - said >> I'm curious as to what the rule is on this, I find myself using the >> latter (Bitters): - [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Both are correct, but the main problem is adequately distinguishing >"bitters" (e.g. Angostura) from "bitter" (beer). Agreed, but in the context I think it'd be understood that they mean beers. It's a rather unusual coinage though. More usually you'd hear "ales" used instead of "bitters". SignatureCliff Laine, The Old Lard Factory, Lancaster ... http://www.loobynet.com remove any trace of rudeness before you reply _______________________________________________________ Firstly, the leaders always tell lies, even when unnecessary; secondly, their agriculture is hopelessly inefficient; and the third thing is that the wrapping paper always sticks to their sweets. Former Italian Communist Party leader Berlenguer on the shortcomings of his own PCI > "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> - a made-up name if ever > I've heard one - said [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > It's a rather unusual coinage though. More usually you'd hear "ales" > used instead of "bitters". But not all ales are bitters. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > "John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> - a made-up name if ever >>Both are correct, but the main problem is adequately distinguishing >>"bitters" (e.g. Angostura) from "bitter" (beer). > Agreed, but in the context I think it'd be understood that they mean > beers. > > It's a rather unusual coinage though. More usually you'd hear "ales" > used instead of "bitters". This is a modern development, or rather a revival. It was not long ago that "ale" was a rather quaint old-fashioned word that you'd rarely hear used unselfconsciously. I guess it was CamRA that did this, and they probably only used "ale" because CamRB wouldn't have been pronounceable. Matthew Huntbach >>"John Briggs" <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> - a made-up name if ever > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > unselfconsciously. I guess it was CamRA that did this, and they probably > only used "ale" because CamRB wouldn't have been pronounceable. But brown ale definitely isn't a bitter - and mild is also a form of ale. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >>>It's a rather unusual coinage though. More usually you'd hear "ales" >>>used instead of "bitters". >> This is a modern development, or rather a revival. It was not long ago that >> "ale" was a rather quaint old-fashioned word that you'd rarely hear used >> unselfconsciously. I guess it was CamRA that did this, and they probably >> only used "ale" because CamRB wouldn't have been pronounceable. > But brown ale definitely isn't a bitter - and mild is also a form of ale. I think you would have heard the word "ale" used in the conjunction "brown ale" and "pale ale", but the general term would have been "beer" not "ale" with "beers" used to mean several varieties. Matthew Huntbach "Matthew Huntbach" <mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote... > >>>It's a rather unusual coinage though. More usually you'd hear > >>>"ales" used instead of "bitters". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "brown ale" and "pale ale", but the general term would have been > "beer" not "ale" with "beers" used to mean several varieties. AIUI "ale" is top-fermented and "lager" bottom-fermented, with "beer" covering both. Thus bitter and mild are ales and beers. Just checking with _Britannica_ to make sure... "The basic techniques of brewing came to Europe from the Middle East. The Roman historians Pliny (in the 1st century BC) and Tacitus (in the 1st century AD) reported that Saxons, Celts, and Nordic and Germanic tribes drank ale. In fact, many of the English terms used in brewing (malt, mash, wort, ale) are Anglo-Saxon in origin. "During the Middle Ages, the monastic orders preserved brewing as a craft. Hops were in use in Germany in the 11th century, and in the 15th century they were introduced into Britain from Holland. In 1420, beer was made in Germany by a bottom fermentation process; before that, yeast rose to the top of the fermenting product and was allowed to overflow or was manually skimmed. Brewing was a winter occupation, and ice was used to keep beer cool during the summer months. Such beer came to be called lager (from German lagern, “to store”). The term lager is still used to denote beer produced from bottom-fermenting yeast, and the term ale is now used for top-fermented British types of beer." Matti > "Matthew Huntbach" <mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote... >> >>>It's a rather unusual coinage though. More usually you'd hear >> >>>"ales" used instead of "bitters". >> I think you would have heard the word "ale" used in the conjunction >> "brown ale" and "pale ale", but the general term would have been >> "beer" not "ale" with "beers" used to mean several varieties. > AIUI "ale" is top-fermented and "lager" bottom-fermented, with "beer" > covering both. Thus bitter and mild are ales and beers. ... > Just checking with _Britannica_ to make sure... > to be called lager (from German lagern, ?to store?). The term lager is > still used to denote beer produced from bottom-fermenting yeast, and the > term ale is now used for top-fermented British types of beer." Yes, I'm aware of that. It does not alter my point, however, that the word "ale" used on its own or as a plural had an archaic note two or three decades ago, at least in the parts of Britain I am familiar with. At that time the beer that most people would drink would be, as you note technically an "ale", but I think the word for varieties of beers would be "beers". Lager then was a minority taste, considered slightly effeminate. The word "ale" on its own would not have been used, unless you were consciously trying to sound old-fashioned, or in the conjunction "brown ale" and "pale ale". Also, most pubs were tied to brewery chains and only sold their brewery's beer, so there would be no need for a plural of "bitter" since there would be available on the bitter brewed by the brewery which owened the pub, and that would be the standard drink most people would be drinking. Since then there has been a massive change, and the beer most people drink now would be technically a lager. It is possible this change has led to the greater need to revice the term "ale" to describe the style of beer which is now the minority taste. The term may also have been revived by its usage by the campaign group "The Campaign for Real Ale" which was set up to defend traditional style British beers against the new style "keg" beers. They may have used the term "ale" rather than "beer" to emphasise tradition, or it may have been because it led to an attractive acronym. Keg beers have largely disappeared, squeezed out by the growing taste for lager rather than by a revical of the sort CamRA were hoping for. Matthew Huntbach >> "Matthew Huntbach" <mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > three decades ago, at least in the parts of Britain I am familiar > with. [snip} > Also, most pubs were > tied to brewery chains and only sold their brewery's beer, so there > would be no need for a plural of "bitter" since there would be > available on the bitter brewed by the brewery which owened the pub, > and that would be the standard drink most people would be drinking. Except that just about every brewery I remember from my youth (OK, four+ decades ago rather than two or three) produced at least two different bitters, often distinguished as "ordinary" and "best", the main differences being in their strength and their price. Some also produced a mild (dark or light depending on the part of the country). Then when keg beers were introduced, they were sold alongside the older brews, so most pubs offered a choice of three bitters from the same brewery. > Keg beers have largely disappeared, Not so, alas. Their latest incarnation is as "nitro-keg" beer, which is the only form of bitter available in some pubs (not ones that I'd choose to frequent). -- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. >>> "Matthew Huntbach" <mmh@dcs.qmw.ac.uk> wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > the only form of bitter available in some pubs (not ones that I'd choose > to frequent). Using nitrogen to pressurise the beer was first used for Guinness many years ago. Opinion seems divided over this - it is certainly preferable to carbon dioxide, as it is effectively an inert gas. There are locations where keg beer is inevitable, for example hotels, clubs, even student bars: anywhere demand is liable to fluctuate, in fact. It is, of course, unforgivable in pubs. SignatureJohn Briggs "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote... > AIUI "ale" is top-fermented and "lager" bottom-fermented, with "beer" > covering both. Thus bitter and mild are ales and beers. [...] I'm just enjoying a very special ale now, and it's so good that I thought it merited a bit of advertising hereabouts and in AUE which I've added. It's Fuller's bottle-conditioned Vintage Ale, produced in small numbers and each bottle individually numbered. Look for it in Waitrose at Christmas time, each bottle packaged in a little box. I just can't tell you how brilliant it is. Browse for it at http://www.fullers.co.uk Matti > "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Browse for it at > http://www.fullers.co.uk There are a number of bars in NYC that serve Fuller's Extra Special Bitter on tap. It's one of my favorite beers, and very strong. SignatureMike Nitabach >> "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote... >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >There are a number of bars in NYC that serve Fuller's Extra Special >Bitter on tap. It's one of my favorite beers, and very strong. Mike, maybe I'm cynical, but I smell a large, individually numbered rat in Matti's beer. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... > >> I'm just enjoying a very special ale now, and it's so good that I > >> thought it merited a bit of advertising hereabouts and in AUE [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Mike, maybe I'm cynical, but I smell a large, individually numbered > rat in Matti's beer. If you're hinting that I may have an interest in Fullers or Waitrose, I can assure you I haven't. I simply enjoy recommending good things occasionally. But if you prefer to disbelieve me, feel free! Matti > "Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... >> >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Matti Those of us in the benighted North, of course, don't have Waitrose. And as a misplaced Southerner, can I just say it? Gales HSB. Oh Dear God. Please let me go home. DC "Django Cat" <nospam@ireallymeanit.com> wrote... > Those of us in the benighted North, of course, don't have Waitrose. <SusieBlake mode=Victoria Wood> "Before the next programme, the BBC would like to apologise to viewers in the North. We're really very sorry -- it must be awful for you." </SusieBlake> Safeway apparently stock Fuller's Vintage Ale too, so perhaps all your Morrison stores will do so now. Matti >Those of us in the benighted North, of course, don't have Waitrose. You will, though. Some of those Morrisons stores are due to transmogrify. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > >Those of us in the benighted North, of course, don't have Waitrose. > > You will, though. Some of those Morrisons stores are due to > transmogrify. Only one, in Southport; the other 18 are ex-Safeways stores, recently bought by Morrisons. Waitrose has reached the West Midlands, Leicester and Nottingham, but not the North West, Yorkshire, or points north. The Safeway stores to be converted are at Sandbach, Abergavenny, Harrogate, Hitchin, Swaffham, Barry, Otley, Dartford, Lincoln, Sheffield, Wolverhampton, Willerby, Rushden, Fulham, Towcester, Newport in Shropshire, Worthing and Farnham. I would only count two of these as in The North. Morrisons has a large range of bottled beers (better than our local Sainsbury or Tesco). I shall look for Fullers when I visit to stock up on barbecue essentials this afternoon. SignatureDavid ==== home again "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote... > "Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I can assure you I haven't. I simply enjoy recommending good > things occasionally. But if you prefer to disbelieve me, feel free! Robin, having read how mUs1Ka read your comment, let me get my apology in first. You just thought my post was a wind-up, and I must learn not to be so cynical! Matti > "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote... >> "Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > in first. You just thought my post was a wind-up, and I must learn > not to be so cynical! I too found it hard to judge what Robin was getting at, so I went with the simplest of my thoughts; the "individually numbered" reference is what swayed me. SignatureRay. >"Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... >> >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >If you're hinting that I may have an interest in Fullers or Waitrose, I >can assure you I haven't. I don't see you as a brewer or storekeeper, Matti, but one never knows! It's the thought of bottles of beer being individually numbered that got me wondering. We've just bought a couple of bottles of Bollinger, and they don't appear to have individual numbers. >I simply enjoy recommending good things >occasionally. But if you prefer to disbelieve me, feel free! I would try to check it out at Christmas, except that Waitroses don't seem to be local to me, either, and I would not be able to tell whether an ale was a good one or not anymore. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England > I would try to check it out at Christmas, except that Waitroses don't seem > to be local to me, either, They are in Stevenage, Harpenden, Hertford, Welwyn, St. Albans, and maybe other Hertfordshire towns, See: http://www.waitrose.com/about/findyourlocalwaitrose.asp > and I would not be able to tell whether an ale > was a good one or not anymore. That, I can't help with it. ------- GC >>> "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote... >>>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Mike, maybe I'm cynical, but I smell a large, individually numbered > rat in Matti's beer. It's there on the site he cited. May be an oversight on your part. SignatureRay. >>>> "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote... >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >It's there on the site he cited. May be an oversight on your part. You're right. I missed it first look (I clicked on 'Fuller's beer', but missed 'brands'), and Fuller's brewery is just down the road from where I used to live, too! But individually numbered bottles, each in its own box? I don't think that even the best single malt whiskies are individually numbered! Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England > I don't think that even the best single malt whiskies are > individually numbered! Many single-cask malt whiskies are provided in bottles labelled with the cask number. SignatureMike Nitabach "Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... > You're right. I missed it first look (I clicked on 'Fuller's beer', but > missed 'brands'), and Fuller's brewery is just down the road from where I > used to live, too! But individually numbered bottles, each in its own box? > I don't think that even the best single malt whiskies are individually > numbered! I've just rummaged in the recycling bin to find the bottle in question: http://www.meticula.plus.com/Photos/Vintage.jpg Matti >"Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I've just rummaged in the recycling bin to find the bottle in question: >http://www.meticula.plus.com/Photos/Vintage.jpg Surely you must now put it onto your trophy shelf. It's just had its 15 minutes of fame. Seems a pity to recycle it into a coke bottle. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England I am 83.... I have never had a taste of beer in my life. In the 20s we lived across from a pub.... every night there were fight's..... SO i always connected drinking & scrapping...... if I ever grew up..... I would never drink. The English & the Irish taught me a good lesson. I have been in the States since 1945.... Yup, I miss my home, I was born in London.... I have a sister, who lives in Bedmond Bucks a sister living in Somerset. & a brother in Slough.. Sincerely.A.G. U.S.A. T.T.F.N. > > "Matti Lamprhey" <matti-nospam@totally-official.com> wrote... > >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > There are a number of bars in NYC that serve Fuller's Extra Special > Bitter on tap. It's one of my favorite beers, and very strong. Interesting: I tried Fuller's London Pride in bottle (a contradiction in terms, I thought) last year, and found it disgusting. I had the chance to try it off the wood again a few months later, and it was as good as I remembered. Mike. "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote... > Michael Nitabach <mnitabach@acedsl.com> wrote... > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > chance to try it off the wood again a few months later, and it was as > good as I remembered. A very creditable ale. You might want to try the similarly-named Young's Special London Ale, brewed within a stone's throw of Fuller's, of course, and trumping its neighbour's 4.7% version soundly at a very tasty 6.4%. I've got unopened bottles of each in front of me, but not for long; lovely weather for alcohol today. http://www.youngs.co.uk/ obAUE: The Ram's Brewery, Wandsworth Matti > "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk> wrote... > > Michael Nitabach <mnitabach@acedsl.com> wrote... [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Matti They serve Young's in the Member's Bar at Lord's - absolutely delicious, especially when Strauss and Hussain were in. Edward SignatureThe reading group's reading group: http://www.bookgroup.org.uk > They serve Young's in the Member's Bar at Lord's - absolutely > delicious, especially when Strauss and Hussain were in. Perhaps you are indulging in postmodern irony, and I am missing the joke, but you would appear to have got yourself in a tangle over apostrophes. I maintain that you would not, in fact, have been incorrect if you had written "They serve Youngs in the Members' Bar at Lords." It always used to be customary to form the name of a shop, company or undertaking by adding an 's' to the proprietor's name without an apostrophe (e.g. Boots, Foyles). There is a modern tendency to use an apostrophe (Blackwell's, Waterstone's - and in this context, Young's and Lord's) which only leads to confusion. Whether the 's' represents a plural or a possessive is an interesting question. SignatureJohn Briggs > > They serve Young's in the Member's Bar at Lord's - absolutely > > delicious, especially when Strauss and Hussain were in. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Whether the 's' represents a plural or a possessive is an interesting > question. Laying aside my mighty impressment that Edward is apparently a Member, that's not unfair. But I could dig out any number of 19-C examples of the singular 's form, in contexts clearly showing that the singular was what was intended. And I used to know Blackwell slightly, though Lord was before my time. Mike. >>> They serve Young's in the Member's Bar at Lord's - absolutely >>> delicious, especially when Strauss and Hussain were in. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > was what was intended. And I used to know Blackwell slightly, though > Lord was before my time. Blackwell's Bookshop > Blackwells Lord's Cricket Ground > Lords. SignatureJohn Briggs > > They serve Young's in the Member's Bar at Lord's - absolutely > > delicious, especially when Strauss and Hussain were in. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Whether the 's' represents a plural or a possessive is an interesting > question. The apostrophe was incorrectly placed in Member's, for which I truly apologise. But Lord's is Lord's (see http://www.lords.org/ground/about.asp - for obvious reasons they can't put the apostrophe in the URL) and Young's is Young's too, I'm afraid (see http://www.youngs.co.uk). Edward SignatureThe reading group's reading group: http://www.bookgroup.org.uk >>> They serve Young's in the Member's Bar at Lord's - absolutely >>> delicious, especially when Strauss and Hussain were in. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > put the apostrophe in the URL) and Young's is Young's too, I'm afraid > (see http://www.youngs.co.uk). It's The Ram Brewery, while we are at it :-) SignatureJohn Briggs [...] > It's The Ram Brewery, while we are at it :-) What is? Edward SignatureThe reading group's reading group: http://www.bookgroup.org.uk On Wednesday, in article <fskvc.42$1d7.37@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net> > Perhaps you are indulging in postmodern irony, and I am missing the joke, > but you would appear to have got yourself in a tangle over apostrophes. I > maintain that you would not, in fact, have been incorrect if you had written > "They serve Youngs in the Members' Bar at Lords." It always used to be > customary to form the name of a shop, company or undertaking by adding an > 's' to the proprietor's name without an apostrophe (e.g. Boots, Foyles). Aha! But do you know just WHY it's "Lords"? Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". > On Wednesday, in article > <fskvc.42$1d7.37@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Aha! But do you know just WHY it's "Lords"? Same reason it's "Boots"? SignatureJohn Briggs > > On Wednesday, in article > > <fskvc.42$1d7.37@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > Aha! But do you know just WHY it's "Lords"? > Same reason it's "Boots"? They sell athlete's foot powder? Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/free/ Free Software: Mah-Jong Tiles & Playing Cards John Briggs typed thus: > > On Wednesday, in article > > <fskvc.42$1d7.37@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Same reason it's "Boots"? Ah, you mean after the well known cricket sponsor, Jesse Lord? SignatureDavid ===== > On Wednesday, in article > <fskvc.42$1d7.37@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Aha! But do you know just WHY it's "Lords"? It isn't. It's Lord's. Named after Thomas Lord. Edward SignatureThe reading group's reading group: http://www.bookgroup.org.uk >> On Wednesday, in article >> <fskvc.42$1d7.37@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > It isn't. It's Lord's. Named after Thomas Lord. What about "Boots"? SignatureJohn Briggs > >> On Wednesday, in article > >> <fskvc.42$1d7.37@newsfe3-win.server.ntli.net> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > What about "Boots"? As ever, Google is your friend: http://www.boots.com/?banner=g&creative=bootschemist Seems to be Boots. I never disputed it, though - just Young's and Lord's. I agree with you - it is rather perverse of Lord's to persevere with this deprecated construction, but what can you do? Probably nothing. I can't do anything, and I'm an MCC member. I'll see if I can get a motion tabled, if there seems to be a sufficient groundswell of opinion. Edward SignatureThe reading group's reading group: http://www.bookgroup.org.uk > Browse for it at > http://www.fullers.co.uk ObAUE: "Our beers have been best in class no less than nine times..." Shouldn't that be "...fewer than nine..."? SignatureJohn Varela (Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.) I apologize for munging the address but the spam was too much. > It's Fuller's bottle-conditioned Vintage Ale, produced in small numbers > and each bottle individually numbered. Are you sure that's an individual bottle number and not a batch number? I just checked the fridge and a couple of brands have what appear to be batch numbers on the bottles. That is to say, the number was obviously applied later to a preprinted label, but all the bottles in the case bear the same number. (One brand has a bottled-on date, and another has a date in the future that is either sell-by or use-by.) SignatureJohn Varela (Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.) I apologize for munging the address but the spam was too much. "John Varela" <OLDlamps@earthlink.net> wrote... > > It's Fuller's bottle-conditioned Vintage Ale, produced in small > > numbers and each bottle individually numbered. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bottled-on date, and another has a date in the future that is either > sell-by or use-by.) I'm pretty sure, but I only bought one bottle from the 2003 vintage so I can't compare labels. The blurb on the box says "Individually packed and numbered, this bottle is one of only fifty thousand produced." You've probably seen my photo of the bottle, which bore number 03628; I reckon that was specific to the bottle. Next year I'll buy two and let you know for certain! Matti > Next year I'll buy two and let you know for certain! How much do these things cost? SignatureJohn Varela (Trade "OLD" lamps for "NEW" for email.) I apologize for munging the address but the spam was too much. >> Next year I'll buy two and let you know for certain! > >How much do these things cost? Just what I was going to ask. It sounds as though Matti is going to have to save for a year to get two. On this special ale/beer/whatever stuff available mainly or only at Christmas, my local in Nottingham (the Spread Eagle, Goldsmith Street), when I was 18 or so, kept a small barrel (a pin, to be precise) of barley wine on the bar at Christmas. They served it by the glass as a pick-me-up on cold mornings, and it had the impact of a slug of rum. It's hard to find barley wine these days, in bottles, and it's not the same stuff at all. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England "Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... > >> Next year I'll buy two and let you know for certain! > > > >How much do these things cost? > > Just what I was going to ask. It sounds as though Matti is going to > have to save for a year to get two. It's taken me a while to answer this question, and I really have no idea how much I paid for that bottle from Waitrose, Monmouth. However, here's somewhere which offers it for $5.99 in the US: http://www.exclamationagiftshop.com/beverages/Fuller_s_Vintage_Ale.shtml Matti >"Dr Robin Bignall" <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote... >> > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >here's somewhere which offers it for $5.99 in the US: >http://www.exclamationagiftshop.com/beverages/Fuller_s_Vintage_Ale.shtml I think we paid 4quid for our bottles. In Safeway. SignatureHooray for the differently sane. > >> Next year I'll buy two and let you know for certain! > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > on cold mornings, and it had the impact of a slug of rum. It's hard to find > barley wine these days, in bottles, and it's not the same stuff at all. I think it's a matter of regional demand: some at least of Tesco's branches have it. Tried Courage's Imperial Russian Stout? Its merit over barley wine is that it isn't sweet, so you can't drink it quickly till you're drunk already; after that point you need an extra guardian angel to look after you. But have you noticed that British beers have been getting stronger for some ten years now? I think it's a bit unfortunate, not only because the flavours aren't always heavy enough to carry the additional alcohol, but because it's harder to find a tasty beer you can swill all evening without getting totally rat-arsed. Mike. >> >> Next year I'll buy two and let you know for certain! >> > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >till you're drunk already; after that point you need an extra guardian >angel to look after you. I would if I could, but have to be pretty much TT these days, not by choice! >But have you noticed that British beers have been getting stronger for >some ten years now? I think it's a bit unfortunate, not only because >the flavours aren't always heavy enough to carry the additional >alcohol, but because it's harder to find a tasty beer you can swill >all evening without getting totally rat-arsed. I've noticed because friends who drink beer have told me, or showed me by getting rat-arsed on several fewer than the traditional eight pints. Apart from an occasional small shandy, I haven't been a beer drinker since the early 1970s. I became accustomed to drinking wine while living in France. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England > But have you noticed that British beers have been getting stronger for > some ten years now? I think it's a bit unfortunate, not only because > the flavours aren't always heavy enough to carry the additional > alcohol, but because it's harder to find a tasty beer you can swill > all evening without getting totally rat-arsed. A bottle of Greene King IPA I drank recently had a label on which it was described as "sessionable". If that's a neologism then I think I can live with it as a shorter alternative to "a tasty beer you can swill all evening without getting totally rat-arsed." These days I drink Marston's Pedigree because it's cheap, tastes pretty good, is actually available in darkest Jutland, and is also, I suppose, sessionable SignatureColin Rosenthal Sabbagh's Second Law: The biggest problem with communication is the illusion that it has occurred. >>>> It's a rather unusual coinage though. More usually you'd hear >>>> "ales" used instead of "bitters". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "brown ale" and "pale ale", but the general term would have been > "beer" not "ale" with "beers" used to mean several varieties. According to an old book (c.1880, IIRC) I once read about the history of beer and ale, "ale" is the general term and "beer" refers to those ales in which hops are used. All bitters use hops (that's what gives the characteristic bitter flavour) , so they are beers. I'm not sure to what extent hops are used nowadays in, for example, mild ale, brown ale, old ale and barley wine, which are all darker and, on the whole, sweeter than bitter. Light ale, on the other hand, is a variety of bitter(usually fairly weak and bottled rather than draught). India Pale Ale is definitely a bitter. -- Mike Stevens, narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. >>>>> It's a rather unusual coinage though. More usually you'd hear >>>>> "ales" used instead of "bitters". [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > bitter(usually fairly weak and bottled rather than draught). India Pale > Ale is definitely a bitter. No, the definitions are hopelessly confused. "Beer" certainly ought to be the most general term as the root of the word is "barley" - although what you do about wheat beers is anyone's guess. As the bitter taste, and name, is from the hops, the name ought to be restricted to hopped beers, but life isn't as straightforward as that. "Ale" was probably just a synonym for "Beer", deriving from the Old Norse word, but there seems to be no sensible way of restricting its application. SignatureJohn Briggs |
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