 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / British English / July 2004Counter
I know that the word "counter", when used domestically, is predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both U.S. American and Canadian), but I am wondering how far it has encroached on English English. Perhaps the enlightened panel might offer instances where this term has become naturalised within the U.K. (specifically Hertfordshire)?  Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/penny/1d-01.htm Matron took an anticipatory sip of her Madeira and wished that she hadn't laced the sexy Basque bodice quite so tightly. > I know that the word "counter", when used domestically, is > predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both U.S. American > and Canadian), but I am wondering how far it has encroached on English > English. Perhaps the enlightened panel might offer instances where > this term has become naturalised within the U.K. (specifically > Hertfordshire)? What kind of counter? All things counter, original, spare, strange? Counter clockwise? People who add? Surfaces for serving customers? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > > I know that the word "counter", when used domestically, is > > predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both U.S. American [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What kind of counter? All things counter, original, spare, strange? > Counter clockwise? People who add? Surfaces for serving customers? The word "domestically" suggests he means a work surface. Adrian >> > I know that the word "counter", when used domestically, is >> > predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both U.S. American [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >The word "domestically" suggests he means a work surface. The very first entry for counter in COD10 is "1 a long flat-topped fitment across which business is conducted in a shop or food and drinks are served. Ø N. Amer. a worktop". In my home town dialect, the flat surface in the kitchen on which meals were put on plates before taking them to the table was always called a counter. The word seems to have been overtaken by 'work surface' here, but every flat horizontal place at approximately waist height in and around my house has been a work surface at one time or another. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England > >> > I know that the word "counter", when used domestically, is > >> > predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both U.S. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > fitment across which business is conducted in a shop or food and > drinks are served. Ø N. Amer. a worktop". > In my home town dialect, the flat surface in the kitchen on which > meals were put on plates before taking them to the table was always > called a counter. The word seems to have been overtaken by 'work > surface' here, but every flat horizontal place at approximately waist > height in and around my house has been a work surface at one time or > another. Thank you, doc. The reason I asked was that I'm currently reading "The Twelve Apostles" by Anthea Turner in which said writer uses the term. Information about the writer seems quite sparse except that she lives in Hertfordshire. I had wondered if she were of Canadian origin. I've just finished a book wherein a Jewish wife has a clandestine and amorous liaison with a hunky golem in the woods outside C17th Prague, and I quote: "Finally they came to a place where the tree branches knit over each other so densely that it was like a cave. All was silent save a whippoorwill who called out. /Whippoorwill, whippoorwill./" But the real inconsistency is the word "honour" alongside normal (regular) US spellings such as "saber". Frances Sherwood, "The Book of Splendour". Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/joachim/07-0.htm Joachim dropped the sheaf of papers on his lap as he fondled the lamb's head and said in exasperation, "This contract is the very devil!" >>>>>I know that the word "counter", when used domestically, is >>>>>predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both U.S. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Information about the writer seems quite sparse except that she lives > in Hertfordshire. I had wondered if she were of Canadian origin. But you don't give any context for the use of the word "counter" - the word is used in Britain with various meanings, some of which might be deemed domestic - we need some context in order to judge which meaning it might be. Regards, Einde > I've just finished a book wherein a Jewish wife has a clandestine and > amorous liaison with a hunky golem in the woods outside C17th Prague, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > real inconsistency is the word "honour" alongside normal (regular) US > spellings such as "saber". Frances Sherwood, "The Book of Splendour". > > Thank you, doc. The reason I asked was that I'm currently reading > > "The Twelve Apostles" by Anthea Turner in which said writer uses [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > might be deemed domestic - we need some context in order to judge > which meaning it might be. You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to these newsgroups? Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/joachim/05-0.htm "One should not delve too deeply into things," Joachim said to the Great Architect of the University... >>>Thank you, doc. The reason I asked was that I'm currently reading >>>"The Twelve Apostles" by Anthea Turner in which said writer uses [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to > these newsgroups? No - just a bit of courtesy - a quote of the relevant passage in the book might be appropriate. I can think of some surfaces in a house I would call a counter, but I don't know whether these surfaces are the same as the ones in your book. In the translation newsgroups and mailing lists I participate in it is usual to give some context - I would expect the same courtesy here - I can't guess what exactly your author has in mind, I've never read any of her works. Einde O'Callaghan > > You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to > > these newsgroups? > > > No - just a bit of courtesy - a quote of the relevant passage in the > book might be appropriate. "Sonia laid the pen down on the counter, where it gleamed smugly in the rain-darkened room. For a minute she stood looking at it. Then she filled the powder container and switched on the machine." Bottom of the antepenultimate page of cap. 5. > I can think of some surfaces in a house I would call a counter, but I > don't know whether these surfaces are the same as the ones in your > book. And I would reserve the term for shops, etc. > In the translation newsgroups and mailing lists I participate in it > is usual to give some context - I would expect the same courtesy > here - I can't guess what exactly your author has in mind, I've > never read any of her works. I did say "when used domestically", i.e. pertaining to the house, as opposed to shop, etc., and the stated predominantly North American English term I would think made it quite reasonably clear what was intended. However, I do apologise for confusing you. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/ How seven spheres, and seven days, and seven earthy metals, Their colours wind in endless maze, until all motion settles. >>>You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to >>>these newsgroups? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > filled the powder container and switched on the machine." Bottom of the > antepenultimate page of cap. 5. I would probably call this surface a "worktop" but I have come across counters in combined kitchen-dining rooms where the kitchen part is separated from the dining room by what I would call a counter on which dishes can be placed as they are being passed from the cooker to teh dining table or at which one can eqat breakfast perched on a stool. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >>>> You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to >>>> these newsgroups? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > dishes can be placed as they are being passed from the cooker to teh > dining table or at which one can eqat breakfast perched on a stool. Here in underpondia I think "bench" and "benchtop" would be the most common terms, though "counter" and "countertop" are gaining ground. SignatureMichael West Melbourne, Australia >>>>>You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to >>>>>these newsgroups? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the most common terms, though "counter" and "countertop" are > gaining ground. My feeling is that 'counter' has been pushed by real estate agents who have invented or popularised a lot of fancy words over the years. SignatureRob Bannister W Australia >>>>>> You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers >>>>>> to these newsgroups? >>>>> >>>>> No - just a bit of courtesy - a quote of the relevant passage in >>>>> the book might be appropriate. >>>> >>>> "Sonia laid the pen down on the counter, where it gleamed smugly >>>> in the rain-darkened room. For a minute she stood looking at it. >>>> Then she filled the powder container and switched on the machine." >>>> Bottom of the antepenultimate page of cap. 5. >>> >>> I would probably call this surface a "worktop" but I have come >>> across counters in combined kitchen-dining rooms where the kitchen >>> part is separated from the dining room by what I would call a >>> counter on which dishes can be placed as they are being passed from >>> the cooker to teh dining table or at which one can eqat breakfast >>> perched on a stool. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > My feeling is that 'counter' has been pushed by real estate agents who > have invented or popularised a lot of fancy words over the years. Was Sonia in a house or an office? (The mention of powder and a machine makes it sound like a copy machine in an office. [Well, if "powder" is "toner."] Of course, the "rain-darkened room" sounds more like a house than an office.) Anyway, in a house here (USA), "counter" or "countertop" would be perfectly normal. But in an office, it would be a "work surface" or "work space" or even a table or stand. Maria Conlon "Let a smile be your umbrella" is not particularly good advice. > >>>> "Sonia laid the pen down on the counter, where it gleamed smugly > >>>> in the rain-darkened room. For a minute she stood looking at it. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > who have invented or popularised a lot of fancy words over the > > years. > Was Sonia in a house or an office? (The mention of powder and a > machine makes it sound like a copy machine in an office. [Well, if > "powder" is "toner."] Of course, the "rain-darkened room" sounds more > like a house than an office.) The machine is a washing machine and the powder is washing powder. > Anyway, in a house here (USA), "counter" or "countertop" would be > perfectly normal. But in an office, it would be a "work surface" or > "work space" or even a table or stand. Counter to me is the surface area in a shop or place of exchange where money is counted (and goods exchanged). Horizontal general purpose surfaces in the kitchen to me would be "top", "kitchen top" or (just possibly) "worktop". My wife keeps referring to my desk as my "table". Apart from the fact it has integral drawers, it might be. Some desks don't have integral drawers and are no more than four legs with a horizontal work top, just like many tables. What's in a name? Since money does get counted on my desk, why isn't it a counter? Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/1b-0.htm Blue Magic Left Ear of Bel Head at the Gates of Death >>Anyway, in a house here (USA), "counter" or "countertop" would be >>perfectly normal. But in an office, it would be a "work surface" or >>"work space" or even a table or stand. > > Counter to me is the surface area in a shop or place of exchange where > money is counted (and goods exchanged). I just read a film review in the Guardian, which employs the term "counter-jumping". I suppose that wouldn't mean much to US readers? Fran >>>>>> "Sonia laid the pen down on the counter, where it gleamed smugly >>>>>> in the rain-darkened room. For a minute she stood looking at it. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > The machine is a washing machine and the powder is washing powder. Ah. That didn't even occur to me, I think because I don't use the term "washing powder" or even just "powder" in connection with washing clothes. It's either "soap" ("laundry soap") or "detergent" ("laundry detergent"). It doesn't matter whether, in fact, it's soap or detergent, and it doesn't matter whether it's liquid or powder. I just call the cleansing agent "soap" or "detergent," as if the words meant the same. >> Anyway, in a house here (USA), "counter" or "countertop" would be >> perfectly normal. But in an office, it would be a "work surface" or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Horizontal general purpose surfaces in the kitchen to me would be > "top", "kitchen top" or (just possibly) "worktop". Our washing machine is in a separate room ("laundry room") and the only surface is a small table, which I use for folding the clothes and towels and such. I wouldn't call that a "counter" under any circumstances that I can think of. > My wife keeps referring to my desk as my "table". Apart from the fact > it has integral drawers, it might be. Some desks don't have integral > drawers and are no more than four legs with a horizontal work top, > just like many tables. What's in a name? Since money does get counted > on my desk, why isn't it a counter? I don't know. Maybe because it's a desk? Your concept of "counter" is very likely based on the original usage, when counting had something to do with it. I don't know how America's kitchen work surfaces came to be called "counters," but these days, counting seldom occurs on them. (I used to think that a counter was "counter to" something. I never could think of what, exactly, it was counter to, though.) On Friday, in article <2l7blcF9lof7U1@uni-berlin.de> > (I used to think that a counter was "counter to" something. I never > could think of what, exactly, it was counter to, though.) All semblance of logic, perchance? Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". >> (I used to think that a counter was "counter to" something. I never >> could think of what, exactly, it was counter to, though.) > > All semblance of logic, perchance? Why would I think that? All that puzzles is not necessarily illogical. Maria Conlon A very great part of the mischiefs that vex this world arises from words. [Edmund Burke] At 08:33:30 on Fri, 9 Jul 2004, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in <4ccbae6e41david@dacha.freeuk.com>: >Counter to me is the surface area in a shop or place of exchange where >money is counted (and goods exchanged). Agreed. Alternatively, a serving counter (such as somebody previously referred to, between kitchen and diningroom). >Horizontal general purpose surfaces in the kitchen to me would be >"top", "kitchen top" or (just possibly) "worktop". To me, "worktop" refers to the material it is made from ("I've got a scratch on my worktop"). If it needs cleaning, its "surface" ("I must wipe down my surfaces"). Otherwise, it's the "side" ("You'll find the butter on the side"). But I guess that's just me. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 08:33:30 on Fri, 9 Jul 2004, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote > in <4ccbae6e41david@dacha.freeuk.com>: > >Counter to me is the surface area in a shop or place of exchange > >where money is counted (and goods exchanged). > Agreed. Alternatively, a serving counter (such as somebody > previously referred to, between kitchen and diningroom). > >Horizontal general purpose surfaces in the kitchen to me would be > >"top", "kitchen top" or (just possibly) "worktop". > To me, "worktop" refers to the material it is made from ("I've got a > scratch on my worktop"). If it needs cleaning, its "surface" ("I > must wipe down my surfaces"). Otherwise, it's the "side" ("You'll > find the butter on the side"). > But I guess that's just me. Oh, surely not: I'd never think of you as having "side". :-) Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0z01-0.htm Gretna Green Why does it always rain in August? On Friday, in article <4ccbae6e41david@dacha.freeuk.com> > Horizontal general purpose surfaces in the kitchen to me would be > "top", "kitchen top" or (just possibly) "worktop". ISTR some builders of new homes referring to "island worktops" (even when they were really peninsulae, being attached somewhere to the rest of the worktops). > My wife keeps referring to my desk as my "table". Apart from the fact > it has integral drawers, it might be. Some desks don't have integral > drawers and are no more than four legs with a horizontal work top, just > like many tables. What's in a name? Since money does get counted on my > desk, why isn't it a counter? There you have it, "On the Nail". Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". David wrote, in part: > "Sonia laid the pen down on the counter, where it gleamed smugly in the > rain-darkened room. What's a rain-darkened room? Has it been flooded? SignatureSML http://pirate-women.com At 15:20:44 on Fri, 9 Jul 2004, Sara Lorimer <sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu> wrote in <1ggnx6t.10mdav2fhsoy0N%sl560_delete_this_@columbia.edu>: >What's a rain-darkened room? Has it been flooded? I suppose it would make nasty dark patches on the wallpaper. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > David wrote, in part: > > "Sonia laid the pen down on the counter, where it gleamed smugly in > > the rain-darkened room. > What's a rain-darkened room? Has it been flooded? Doubt it. Don't the light get dimmer when it rains in your part of the world? Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/zodiac/baqu-0.htm Aquarius (January 21st - February 19th) Khumba - the Water-Pot Anuket (Anukis) >> David wrote, in part: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Doubt it. Don't the light get dimmer when it rains in your part of the >world? The Rising Damp darkens the walls. > > David wrote, in part: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Doubt it. Don't the light get dimmer when it rains in your part of the > world? I would never think to describe a room as "rain-darkened," any more than it would be "curtain-darkened." A street or a shirt or something else that actually gets wet, sure, but not a room. Does "rain-darkened room" sound reasonable to you? SignatureSML http://pirate-women.com > > Doubt it. Don't the light get dimmer when it rains in your part of > > the world? > I would never think to describe a room as "rain-darkened," any more > than it would be "curtain-darkened." A street or a shirt or something > else that actually gets wet, sure, but not a room. Does > "rain-darkened room" sound reasonable to you? Perhaps the poetry in your soul is of a different nature? Yes, it does sound reasonable. A light shower might not diminish the light levels (much) but a heavy shower or rain will almost certainly make the sky darker and with it, the room. Even in summer, it might become necessary to turn on the light. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/cook/22sct-0.htm 2 Small Curd Tart Recipes >>> Doubt it. Don't the light get dimmer when it rains in your part >>> of the world? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > make the sky darker and with it, the room. Even in summer, it might > become necessary to turn on the light. Our dining room was certainly darkened by heavy rain while we were having lunch but I think the expression is rather florid. The quoted sentence was: "Sonia laid the pen down on the counter, where it gleamed smugly in the rain-darkened room." I'd like to know how a pen can "gleam smugly". I note that the author is one Anthea Turner. Is this the same failed celebrity who presented Blue Peter and the Lottery? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > >>> Doubt it. Don't the light get dimmer when it rains in your part > >>> of the world? [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >I'd like to know how a pen can "gleam smugly". The pen is a publicity hound, and has been getting a lot of ink. >>>>>Doubt it. Don't the light get dimmer when it rains in your part >>>>>of the world? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > The pen is a publicity hound, and has been getting a lot of ink. I don't know what that means but I'm impressed by the speed of your reply. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>>Doubt it. Don't the light get dimmer when it rains in your part >>>>>>of the world? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > >I don't know what that means but I'm impressed by the speed of your reply. Didn't know the phrase was pondially-challenged. "Getting a lot of ink" means getting a lot of attention in the newspapers and magazines. A film star, or other "personality" that tries to get a lot of media attention would be a "publicity hound". David Beckham has been getting a lot of ink over here. > Our dining room was certainly darkened by heavy rain while we were > having lunch but I think the expression is rather florid. > The quoted sentence was: > "Sonia laid the pen down on the counter, where it gleamed smugly in > the rain-darkened room." > I'd like to know how a pen can "gleam smugly". Something to do with poetic licentiousness? > I note that the author is one Anthea Turner. Is this the same failed > celebrity who presented Blue Peter and the Lottery? I've no idea since I've never watched either. Book now returned to local library and its further removal is not recommended, except for disposal. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/0-buddha.htm A Yorkshire Buddha did appear... > Our dining room was certainly darkened by heavy rain while we were > having lunch but I think the expression is rather florid. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I'd like to know how a pen can "gleam smugly". Maybe it was one of those that glow in the dark. Smugly. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >I note that the author is one Anthea Turner. Is this the same failed >celebrity who presented Blue Peter and the Lottery? When I saw the first mention of Anthea[1] Turner I googled and amazoned. There appear to be two persons of the same name. The "failed celebrity" [2] seems to work with a ghost writer or co writer. The other seems to be a 'proper' writer. [1] Oh Joy! The spellchecker suggested "anathema". [2] If a person is celebrated for being a failed celebrity, she is still a celebrity of a sort, isn't she? SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) >>>David wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > that actually gets wet, sure, but not a room. Does "rain-darkened room" > sound reasonable to you? It sounds nice, but, as you say, it doesn't really mean a great deal. A rain-darkened landscape I can imagine. It's not the rain that darkens the room, but the clouds. SignatureRob Bannister >>> David wrote, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > else that actually gets wet, sure, but not a room. Does > "rain-darkened room" sound reasonable to you? How are you with wine-dark sea? scrotum-tightening sea? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>>David wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > How are you with wine-dark sea? scrotum-tightening sea? Fine, but I wouldn't be happy with 'wine-dark' or 'storm-dark' ship's cabin, and that's the problem I had with 'rain-darkened room'. I love 'rain-darkened landscape', but find it hard to extend that to the room. SignatureRob Bannister > >>I would never think to describe a room as "rain-darkened," any more > >>than it would be "curtain-darkened." A street or a shirt or something [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cabin, and that's the problem I had with 'rain-darkened room'. I love > 'rain-darkened landscape', but find it hard to extend that to the room. Me too. (Well, he asked.) SignatureSML http://pirate-women.com At 08:03:07 on Mon, 12 Jul 2004, Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote in <ccskdm$k2b$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au>: >>>>>David wrote, in part: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >cabin, and that's the problem I had with 'rain-darkened room'. I love >'rain-darkened landscape', but find it hard to extend that to the room. Perhaps somebody has left the windows open. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 08:03:07 on Mon, 12 Jul 2004, Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> > wrote in <ccskdm$k2b$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au>: > >> How are you with wine-dark sea? scrotum-tightening sea? > > > >Fine, but I wouldn't be happy with 'wine-dark' or 'storm-dark' > >ship's cabin, and that's the problem I had with 'rain-darkened > >room'. I love 'rain-darkened landscape', but find it hard to extend > >that to the room. > Perhaps somebody has left the windows open. LOL :-) Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/quiz/ Tricky Teasers - Freakish Facts >> How are you with wine-dark sea? scrotum-tightening sea? > >Fine, but I wouldn't be happy with 'wine-dark' or 'storm-dark' ship's >cabin, and that's the problem I had with 'rain-darkened room'. I love >'rain-darkened landscape', but find it hard to extend that to the room. Me too, but how about a weatherman talking about 'soft air'? A CNN news host jumped on his expression with much glee the other day, apparently ignorant of the common Irish expression 'a soft day', not that I'm so sure that moist air, perhaps with a bit of rain, was what the weatherman was referring to. SignatureCharles Riggs >> I would never think to describe a room as "rain-darkened," any more >> than it would be "curtain-darkened." A street or a shirt or something >> else that actually gets wet, sure, but not a room. Does >> "rain-darkened room" sound reasonable to you? > >How are you with wine-dark sea? scrotum-tightening sea? Didn't Jim himself use the second expression? Must be OK, then. SignatureCharles Riggs >>>> David wrote, in part: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > How are you with wine-dark sea? scrotum-tightening sea? There has, I believe, been some discussion about 'wine-dark sea' over the years, complete with theories regarding the likelihood of either the wine or the sea having changed colour. SignatureJohn Briggs >>> Thank you, doc. The reason I asked was that I'm currently reading >>> "The Twelve Apostles" by Anthea Turner in which said writer uses [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to > these newsgroups? I think you're overestimating your own communication skills. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > > You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to > > these newsgroups? > I think you're overestimating your own communication skills. Probably. I just assumed that the Pondian difference, along with the household implication, would make it fairly clear as to which meaning of "counter" was intended. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/6y-0.htm Say nothing on Sunday; contemplate this day the Golden Sun: A Sulphurous Yellow Light - but false - that from Cold Night was Spun. >>> You think I'm expecting too much intelligence in the subscribers to >>> these newsgroups? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > household implication, would make it fairly clear as to which meaning > of "counter" was intended. I think there was a problem in that 'domestically' is not automatically taken as a household reference. Given the USAn tendency for blood-curdling oaths promising to defend the Constitution 'against all enemies domestic and foreign' and stuff like that, I believe it rash to assume that 'domestically' constitutes a 'household implication' all by itself. And when you said "I know that the word "counter", when used domestically, is predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both U.S. American and Canadian), but I am wondering how far it has encroached on English English." was it not apparent that a brief definition of which meaning of 'counter' you intended would forestalled any misunderstanding? Especially since you were apparently starting from the point of view that 'counter' in your intended sense was little known over here, it seems strange not to give us a clue. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford [Snip] > Especially since > you were apparently starting from the point of view that 'counter' in > your intended sense was little known over here, it seems strange not > to give us a clue. Oh, I don't think it's little known over here. In fact, I think it's very well known over here, thanks (do I really mean "thanks"?) to the preponderance of foreign sitcoms, soaps, lattes, and the like. I was asking about its use in England. I don't blink an eye when I hear a USian use the term on TV; when I hear an English person use it, my ears prick up and my mind begins to wonder about the provenance of that particular instance. (But then, I'm just nosey!) Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/free/ Free Software: !Jess - JPEG extractor >[Snip] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >wonder about the provenance of that particular instance. (But then, I'm >just nosey!) When I was a small child (early fifties) my father built a counter in our kitchen in the north of England; having built it, he got to say what it was called. I don't know where he got the idea (or the word) from - no-one else we knew had one. This was before we had TV, so no American programmes. He spent some time in the US during the war (Air Force training) but I don't think he got to spend time in American people's houses. Too late to ask him now. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com". Don Aitken typed thus: > >[Snip] > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Force training) but I don't think he got to spend time in American > people's houses. Too late to ask him now. 1950s shops had narrow flat surfaces to separate the customer from the shopkeeper and the goods - these were surely called counters. SignatureDavid ===== "david56" <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote in message > 1950s shops had narrow flat surfaces to separate the customer from > the shopkeeper and the goods - these were surely called counters. Just so, and I think I (as a speaker of London-UK English) would only use the word "counter" for a surface in a house if there was open space both sides of it - not for a work-surface against a wall. But that might well just my personal idiom. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat "Felis Catus II" My web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk > I've just finished a book wherein a Jewish wife has a clandestine and > amorous liaison with a hunky golem in the woods outside C17th Prague, > and I quote: "Finally they came to a place where the tree branches knit > over each other so densely that it was like a cave. All was silent save > a whippoorwill who called out. /Whippoorwill, whippoorwill./" Mm, yes. Range: Eastern US, southeastern Canada. Did we ever come up with a name for mistakes like anachronisms but in geography? >But the > real inconsistency is the word "honour" alongside normal (regular) US > spellings such as "saber". Yeah, should be "saeber." > Frances Sherwood, "The Book of Splendour". SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > I've just finished a book wherein a Jewish wife has a clandestine > > and amorous liaison with a hunky golem in the woods outside C17th > > Prague, and I quote: "Finally they came to a place where the tree > > branches knit over each other so densely that it was like a cave. > > All was silent save a whippoorwill who called out. /Whippoorwill, > > whippoorwill./" > Mm, yes. Range: Eastern US, southeastern Canada. Common sort of error in historical films where English or Europeans (or even antipodeans [to us]) are seen farming or selling typically American produce. > Did we ever come up with a name for mistakes like anachronisms but in > geography? I don't know. I was wondering about it in the bath the other night. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/cook/25smc-0.htm 4 Small Mock Curd Tart Recipes Donna Richoux: > > Did we ever come up with a name for mistakes like anachronisms but in > > geography? "David": > I don't know. I was wondering about it in the bath the other night. I posted this on April 27, 2003: | "Anatopism" is given in some dictionaries. The OED1 lists it as rare. SignatureMark Brader | "After that, he spent a long time just reading netnews. msb@vex.net | Sorry, I mean of course that he was debugging his Toronto | terminal emulation code..." --Lars Wirzenius > Donna Richoux: > > > Did we ever come up with a name for mistakes like anachronisms > > > but in geography? > > "David": > > I don't know. I was wondering about it in the bath the other night. And I didn't get a wink of sleep.... > I posted this on April 27, 2003: > | "Anatopism" is given in some dictionaries. The OED1 lists it as > | rare. Not having looked it up in the Oxford, I had considered this by analogy with anachronism, of course, but as the "ana" element in anachronism means "back(ward)", I had dismissed it. The "ana in analogy means "according to" which also wouldn't do; and I failed to find a meaning for "ana" which would be useful in this case. "Dystopism" might be a good choice had not Dystopia been used as the opposite of Utopia. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0z06-0.htm Mist over Ladybower, seen from the Yorkshire border http://www.grough.freeuk.com/j02.htm Trees I Have Known >> Donna Richoux: >> > > Did we ever come up with a name for mistakes like anachronisms [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >And I didn't get a wink of sleep.... You were tiddly, eh? (to get back on topic ;-) SignatureDave OSOS#24 dswindell.gerbil@tcp.co.uk Remove my gerbil for email replies Yamaha XJ900S & Wessex sidecar, the sexy one Yamaha XJ900F & Watsonian Monaco, the comfortable one http://dswindell.members.beeb.net Mark Brader: > > I posted this on April 27, 2003: > > | "Anatopism" is given in some dictionaries. The OED1 lists it as > > | rare. > Not having looked it up in the Oxford, I had considered this by analogy > with anachronism, of course, but as the "ana" element in anachronism > means "back(ward)", I had dismissed it. The "ana in analogy means > "according to" which also wouldn't do; and I failed to find a meaning > for "ana" which would be useful in this case. The etymological fallacy strikes again. The relevant meaning is the one derived by back formation from "anachronism". SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "It is almost always wrong to strive for msb@vex.net gilt by association." --Martin Ambuhl > Mark Brader: > > > I posted this on April 27, 2003: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > analogy means "according to" which also wouldn't do; and I failed > > to find a meaning for "ana" which would be useful in this case. > The etymological fallacy strikes again. The relevant meaning is the > one derived by back formation from "anachronism". Might be a back formation but it's nonsensical nevertheless; not as bad as "ambucopter" which, thank Lucifer, seems to have given way to "air ambulance" (which suggest limping along in Doc Martens to me but there you go....) Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/2g-0.htm Green Magic Left Nostril of Ishtar Genitals in the Clay of Death >>> I know that the word "counter", when used domestically, is >>> predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both U.S. American [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > The word "domestically" suggests he means a work surface. So the 86,500 hits I get on Google linking 'politics' and 'domestically' indicate that Bush and Kerry are locked in dispute about where to chop tomatos? Like http://tinyurl.com/3a62q where the Boston Globe reports "Kerry says Bush hurts US domestically, globally". Though I doff my cap to you for posting a reply an hour before I posted my question. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>> I know that the word "counter", when used domestically, is >>>> predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both U.S. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Though I doff my cap to you for posting a reply an hour before I > posted my question. Hah! Your post arrived an hour before its [indicated] time. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > >>> I know that the word "counter", when used domestically, is > >>> predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both U.S. American [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Though I doff my cap to you for posting a reply an hour before I posted > my question. You okay, John? Adrian > > I know that the word "counter", when used domestically, is > > predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both U.S. > > American and Canadian), but I am wondering how far it has > > encroached on English English. Perhaps the enlightened panel might > > offer instances where this term has become naturalised within the > > U.K. (specifically Hertfordshire)? > What kind of counter? All things counter, original, spare, strange? > Counter clockwise? People who add? Surfaces for serving customers? Tiddlywinks? Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/free/ Free Software: !MagPi-Mo' - Magnifier, PointerInfo & Mouse Setter >> I know that the word "counter", when used domestically, is >> predominantly a North American English term (I.e. both U.S. American [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What kind of counter? All things counter, original, spare, strange? > Counter clockwise? People who add? Surfaces for serving customers? ... small piece of plastic used for playing Ludo? ... |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.