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Discussion Groups / British English / January 2005Lost/displaced Briticisms
Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to questionable items? Accumulator: car battery Billion: originally 'large' (10^12), now 'small' (10^9) Fount: as typeface, now usually 'font' Gangway: as a passage between seats in a theatre etc., now largely displaced by 'aisle' Quitted: past of 'quit' is now usually 'quit' Sparking plug: spark plug Wireless: radio > Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) > displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Sparking plug: spark plug > Wireless: radio I'd like to know when you think they were lost. Except for billion and fount I've never used these so-called Briticisms nor heard them being used, even while living in Britain from 1971 to 1992, with the partial exception of "wireless", which I associate with people at least 30 or 40 years older than me. It seems to me thet what you have here is a list of terms from the pre-World War II period which fell out of use, but not necessarily because of American influence. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >> Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >> displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > pre-World War II period which fell out of use, but not necessarily > because of American influence. Why did they fall out of use, if not because of AmE influence? Several of those terms were well-established in AmE long before World War II. Mind you, I don't approve of postwar British US-ophilia. > > Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) > > displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > exception of "wireless", which I associate with people at least 30 or 40 > years older than me. Accumulator: I think this was common in the 1940s but had gone out of use by the 1960s. (My father worked for a company which manufactured car batteries and they were never referred to as accumulators.) Billion: I remember learning in school (in the 1960s) that a billion was 10^12, but I think that the 'British' billion was on its way out even then. Its fate was sealed when Harold Wilson decided, in 1974, to use the US billion in Government publications. See: http://www.alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxbill00.html I think that 'Fount' went out with the introduction of modern computer-based printing technology (mainly in the 1980s). 'Gangway' is still in use in the stated sense, having been only partly displaced by 'aisle'. I'm not sure when the pendulum swung from 'quitted' to 'quit' in the UK. British dictionaries tended to list 'quitted' as the UK usage and 'quit' as the US usage, until about the mid 1980s - but dictionaries often take 2 decades or longer to notice usage trends! However I do suspect that an American influence has played a part in the trend. 'Wireless' was common in the 1960s but went into rapid decline afterwards. The term 'radio' isn't really an Americanism, but I believe that the American influence helped to popularize it. > It seems to me thet what you have here is a list of terms from the > pre-World War II period which fell out of use, but not necessarily > because of American influence. I don't think this statement is true for the majority of the words in my list! > 'Gangway' is still in use in the stated sense, having been only partly > displaced by 'aisle'. Interestingly, "gangway!" is often used as an interjection in AmE. It's meaning is equivalent to "Get out of the way!" Don Kansas City >> 'Gangway' is still in use in the stated sense, having been only partly >> displaced by 'aisle'. > >Interestingly, "gangway!" is often used as an interjection in AmE. It's >meaning is equivalent to "Get out of the way!" Dunno about that. I think of the term as "Gang way!" and not one word. I can't remember ever writing it (before this post), but I'd write it as two words. I suppose Google will prove me to be the only person in the world that thinks of it as two words, but that's the way it is. > >Interestingly, "gangway!" is often used as an interjection in AmE. It's > >meaning is equivalent to "Get out of the way!" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I suppose Google will prove me to be the only person in the world that > thinks of it as two words, but that's the way it is. Merriam-Webster definition: Main Entry: gang·way Pronunciation: 'ga[ng]-"wA Function: noun 1 : PASSAGEWAY; especially : a temporary way of planks 2 a : either of the sides of the upper deck of a ship b : the opening by which a ship is boarded c : GANGPLANK 3 British : AISLE 4 a : a cross aisle dividing the front benches from the backbenches in the British House of Commons b : an aisle in the British House of Commons that separates government and opposition benches 5 : a clear passage through a crowd -- often used as an interjection Don Kansas City >> >Interestingly, "gangway!" is often used as an interjection in AmE. It's >> >meaning is equivalent to "Get out of the way!" [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >separates government and opposition benches >5 : a clear passage through a crowd -- often used as an interjection Sorry, I wasn't clear. I agree with "gangway" for the passage or boarding facility. What I think of as "gang way!" is the term meaning "move out of the way" as in the interjection part of #5. > Sorry, I wasn't clear. I agree with "gangway" for the passage or > boarding facility. What I think of as "gang way!" is the term meaning > "move out of the way" as in the interjection part of #5. I do see what you mean though. It would seem that way to me too, because it's pronounced differently (despite no such indication in the dictionary). When used as the interjection there are accents on both syllables (rather than only on the first syllable as in the "passage" sense), as if it were indeed two words. Google hits: gangway: 101,000 gang way: 2,250 Aw, hell. I don't know. Don Kansas City >>>> Interestingly, "gangway!" is often used as an interjection in AmE. >>>> It's meaning is equivalent to "Get out of the way!" [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > boarding facility. What I think of as "gang way!" is the term meaning > "move out of the way" as in the interjection part of #5. See the last five words of the M-W definition.  SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ In alt.english.usage on Fri, 9 Jul 2004 12:20:11 -0700 "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> posted: >>>>> Interestingly, "gangway!" is often used as an interjection in AmE. >>>>> It's meaning is equivalent to "Get out of the way!" [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >See the last five words of the M-W definition. See the last 7 words of the Tony's post above. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > "Skitt" posted: >>>>>> Interestingly, "gangway!" is often used as an interjection in >>>>>> AmE. It's meaning is equivalent to "Get out of the way!" [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > See the last 7 words of the Tony's post above. Yabbut the pronunciation shown in Merriam-Webster applies to the whole works. That is what I was pointing out. There is no distinction made for the last part of #5. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >> "Skitt" posted: > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >works. That is what I was pointing out. There is no distinction made for >the last part of #5. No, there is isn't. Nor did I say there was. What I said was that I *think* of the term as two words. I was not looking for clarification as I knew it would not be there. I'll add to that that I *think* there should be a second version using two separate words. I don't expect it to happen, and I don't expect others to share my view, but I - personally - think that "gang way" works better than "gangway" for "move it, I'm coming through". Since this is a personal opinion, and not a crusade I'm on, I'm perfectly happy to be the sole holder of that opinion. And, it's not "pronunciation", but spelling that I think of differently. People that spell it "gangway" tend to pronounce it "gang way". You would not say "I went up the gangway to the deck" and say "gangway" the same as you would "Gangway! I'm going up on deck". There is a pause, however slight, in the second usage. > People that spell it "gangway" tend to pronounce it "gang way". I don't. > You would not say "I went up the gangway to the deck" and > say "gangway" the same as you would "Gangway! I'm going up on deck". Yup. > There is a pause, however slight, in the second usage. Not for me, but that's me. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >> People that spell it "gangway" tend to pronounce it "gang way". > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Not for me, but that's me. I don't see how you could. The emphasis - slight, but there - is on "gang" in one and "way" in the other. It's difficult to duplicate, though, since the word - words - are seldom used and you have to fake the pronunciation. "Tony Cooper"> And, it's not "pronunciation", but spelling that I think of > differently. People that spell it "gangway" tend to pronounce it > "gang way". You would not say "I went up the gangway to the deck" and > say "gangway" the same as you would "Gangway! I'm going up on deck". > There is a pause, however slight, in the second usage. The two usages are probably related, "GANG WAY!" might be short hand for "clear the gangway I'm coming through!" >"Tony Cooper"> And, it's not "pronunciation", but spelling that I think of >> differently. People that spell it "gangway" tend to pronounce it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The two usages are probably related, "GANG WAY!" might be short hand for >"clear the gangway I'm coming through!" I suppose, but I also suppose "gangway" and "gangplank" are related. People seldom insist on pushing through to get on the gangplank. Others do the insisting. > >> "Skitt" posted: > > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > say "gangway" the same as you would "Gangway! I'm going up on deck". > There is a pause, however slight, in the second usage. AS in " 'Ten shun!" CB In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:38:10 -0400 Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> posted: >>> 'Gangway' is still in use in the stated sense, having been only partly >>> displaced by 'aisle'. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I suppose Google will prove me to be the only person in the world that >thinks of it as two words, but that's the way it is. I thought it was Scottish for "Going down the way". Like a Robert Burns usage, the best laid plans of mice and men... s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:38:10 -0400 Tony Cooper > <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> posted: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I thought it was Scottish for "Going down the way". Like a Robert > Burns usage, the best laid plans of mice and men... 'gang' is still, I believe, known in Scotland. It certainly was in the past - "Will ye gang to the Highlands, bonny lassie, with me? Will ye gang to the Highlands, bonny lassie?" said he." "Till all the seas gang dry ..." ... and all that. And one of the murderers of Scott of Buccleuch in 1552 was reported to have said over the corpse "Ly thair, with my malison, for I had lewor gang by thi graif nor thi dure." Which seems a little harsh. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > > In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:38:10 -0400 Tony Cooper > > <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> posted: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > 'gang' is still, I believe, known in Scotland. It certainly was in the > past - It's still common in English dialect as well, notably in the North East. SignatureDavid ==== SW France At 16:07:32 on Sun, 11 Jul 2004, david56 <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> wrote in <MPG.1b5b5e57db4fb085989707@news.individual.net>: >> > In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:38:10 -0400 Tony Cooper >> > <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> posted: >> > I thought it was Scottish for "Going down the way". Like a Robert >> > Burns usage, the best laid plans of mice and men... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >It's still common in English dialect as well, notably in the North East. Classic North British and, as Melvyn Bragg pointed out in his excellent radio series whose name I forget, exactly the same in various Scandinavian languages[1]. It is the verb to go which is the nasty modern interloper. [1] He mentioned being in a Scandinavian restaurant when a tall, beautiful, well-dressed and apparently well-educated young lady stood up and said "Ah'm ganging hame" - the exact vowel-sounds being those used in a particular Northumbrian town whose name I also forget. Not doing very well, am I? SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 16:07:32 on Sun, 11 Jul 2004, david56 <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> > wrote in <MPG.1b5b5e57db4fb085989707@news.individual.net>: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > used in a particular Northumbrian town whose name I also forget. Not > doing very well, am I? I had a West Hartlepudlian pal at Uni who had little success with girls until he met a Norwegian au pair and found she understood him better than any of us. 'Gan Yam' was one of the phrases I recollect they both pronounced the same and which meant the same to both. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > > At 16:07:32 on Sun, 11 Jul 2004, david56 <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> > > wrote in <MPG.1b5b5e57db4fb085989707@news.individual.net>: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > various Scandinavian languages[1]. It is the verb to go which is the > > nasty modern interloper. Routes of English > > [1] He mentioned being in a Scandinavian restaurant when a tall, > > beautiful, well-dressed and apparently well-educated young lady stood [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > than any of us. 'Gan Yam' was one of the phrases I recollect they both > pronounced the same and which meant the same to both. "Uni"? "Uni"?? You never called it Uni. I never called it Uni, and I am x years younger than you. AFAIK the awful "Uni" came in with Neighbours. SignatureDavid ==== SW France >>> At 16:07:32 on Sun, 11 Jul 2004, david56 <bass.c.voice@ntlworld.com> >>> wrote in <MPG.1b5b5e57db4fb085989707@news.individual.net>: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > I am x years younger than you. AFAIK the awful "Uni" came in with > Neighbours. I write more Australopithily than I speak. SignatureJohn 'values of x may be negative' Dean Oxford "david56" typed: > john-dean@frag.lineone.net says... >> I had a West Hartlepudlian pal at Uni who had little success with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and I am x years younger than you. AFAIK the awful "Uni" came in > with Neighbours. I do. Often. If while reading I come across the word "university", I'm quite likely to read it as "uni", and move along. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan > "david56" typed: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I do. Often. If while reading I come across the word "university", > I'm quite likely to read it as "uni", and move along. But you are excused for being under 30. SignatureDavid ==== SW France "david56" typed: >> "david56" typed: >>> "Uni"? "Uni"?? You never called it Uni. I never called it Uni, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > But you are excused for being under 30. I'll quietly move along, then. SignatureAyaz Ahmed Khan > I had a West Hartlepudlian pal at Uni who had little success with girls > until he met a Norwegian au pair and found she understood him better > than any of us. 'Gan Yam' was one of the phrases I recollect they both > pronounced the same and which meant the same to both. I'm surprised about that as 'Gang yam' meaning going home isn't normally heard that far south - I never came across it used in Teesside as a child (living within a stone's throw from Harlepool!), although I did hear it from people from Sunderland and Newcastle. I would assume that your friend was going out of his way to use a feature which does occure in the North East but not in his dialect area! As regards 'gang' meaning to go, it is still used in the North East, again not so common in Teesside and more common in Durham, Sunderland, Newcastle and Northumberland. > As regards 'gang' meaning to go, it is still used in the North East, > again not so common in Teesside and more common in Durham, Sunderland, > Newcastle and Northumberland. "Gan" not "gang". I've lived in the north-east (Wearside) for 28 years and I am quite sure I have never heard people say "gang" for "gan" in that time. "I'm gangin' oot on the hoy"? NO! It's "I'm gannin' oot on the hoy". SignaturejohnF "This is the classic difficulty with 'group selection' explanations: short-term advantages to the individual are likely to outweigh long-term advantages to the population." -- _The Origins Of Life_, John Maynard Smith & Eörs Szathmáry >> As regards 'gang' meaning to go, it is still used in the North East, >> again not so common in Teesside and more common in Durham, Sunderland, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >"I'm gangin' oot on the hoy"? NO! It's "I'm gannin' oot on the hoy". I've lived almost due west of you for over 30 years and fully concur. SignaturePhilip Powell Looking north across the Derwent Valley and Northumberland to The Cheviot our next door neighbour between Keswick & Bassenthwaite in Cumberland once gave me the following instructions when I went up to get our fresh milk for the week, and she told me about the new litter of pigs just born which I really must see on the way back... if yer gan t'ogist, shoot yat beyand yer... >>> As regards 'gang' meaning to go, it is still used in the North East, >>> again not so common in Teesside and more common in Durham, Sunderland, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I've lived almost due west of you for over 30 years and fully concur. At 19:56:51 on Sat, 22 Jan 2005, jeslawrence <jeslawrence@att.net> wrote in <7eyId.14003$8u5.2468@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>: >our next door neighbour between Keswick & Bassenthwaite in Cumberland once >gave me the following instructions when I went up to get our fresh milk for >the week, and she told me about the new litter of pigs just born which I >really must see on the way back... > >if yer gan t'ogist, shoot yat beyand yer... I can't figure out "ogist" - what's that? However, I do remember once when very small, on a country walk with my parents in Scotland, seeing a sign on a gate to a sheep field which said "Stick the yet". SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 19:56:51 on Sat, 22 Jan 2005, jeslawrence <jeslawrence@att.net> > wrote in <7eyId.14003$8u5.2468@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I can't figure out "ogist" - what's that? Possibly a person who keeps hogs? -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. >> At 19:56:51 on Sat, 22 Jan 2005, jeslawrence <jeslawrence@att.net> >> wrote in <7eyId.14003$8u5.2468@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Possibly a person who keeps hogs? If you are going to the pig sty, kindly close the gate behind you. SignaturePhilip Powell Looking north across the Derwent Valley and Northumberland to The Cheviot > john-dean@frag.lineone.net says... > >> 'gang' is still, I believe, known in Scotland. It certainly was in the >> past - > > It's still common in English dialect as well, notably in the North East. That's an annoyance to me. The way that people think that the 'Geordie' "I'll gan there" is actually "I'll gang there." I've lived in the North-East for almost 28 years, and I have yet to meet any one of the native speakers (of the modern urban dialects) here who sticks that velar nasal "ng" sound on the end of "gan" when it means "go". SignaturejohnF >> 'Gangway' is still in use in the stated sense, having been only partly >> displaced by 'aisle'. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Don > Kansas City And in BrE. DC On Friday, in article <2l7vrqF9750mU1@uni-berlin.de> > > 'Gangway' is still in use in the stated sense, having been only partly > > displaced by 'aisle'. > > Interestingly, "gangway!" is often used as an interjection in AmE. It's > meaning is equivalent to "Get out of the way!" My great-grandfather (who died in 1962, aged 86) had been in the Royal Navy from ca.1894, retiring as a Lt Cdr after WWI (he then remained on half-pay up until his death). Although by no means a tall man, he had great "physical presence", and I can remember many occasions on which a crowd had parted like the Red Sea upon his shouting "GANGway for a Naval Officer!" Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". > On Friday, in article <2l7vrqF9750mU1@uni-berlin.de> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > crowd had parted like the Red Sea upon his shouting "GANGway for a Naval > Officer!" It was probably a well-known expression. My father used a similar version: "Make way for a Naval Officer!" Mind you, he was an NCO in the RAF during WWII :-) SignatureJohn Briggs > > 'Gangway' is still in use in the stated sense, having been only partly > > displaced by 'aisle'. > > Interestingly, "gangway!" is often used as an interjection in AmE. It's > meaning is equivalent to "Get out of the way!" In UK English as well. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Me cogitare credo ergo me esse credo. (Rany Day-Carts) In alt.english.usage on 9 Jul 2004 09:15:49 -0700 djpicton@bigmailbox.net (David Picton) posted: >Accumulator: I think this was common in the 1940s but had gone out of >use by the 1960s. (My father worked for a company which manufactured >car batteries and they were never referred to as accumulators.) Interestingly, in the US, C cells and D cells, AA and AAA are called batteries even though they only have one cell in each. Only car batteries and 9 volt batteries are actually batteries. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > In alt.english.usage on 9 Jul 2004 09:15:49 -0700 > djpicton@bigmailbox.net (David Picton) posted: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Only car batteries and 9 volt batteries are actually batteries. Two or more artillery pieces are a battery. A baseball pitcher and catcher are a battery. In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:17:50 GMT "raymond o'hara" <reoh@comcast.net> posted: >> In alt.english.usage on 9 Jul 2004 09:15:49 -0700 >> djpicton@bigmailbox.net (David Picton) posted: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Two or more artillery pieces are a battery. A baseball pitcher and catcher >are a battery. I'm talking about items that generate electric potential, but I'm sure you knew that. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years >> (David Picton) posted: >>> Accumulator: I think this was common in the 1940s but had gone out >>> of use by the 1960s. (My father worked for a company which [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Two or more artillery pieces are a battery. A baseball pitcher and > catcher are a battery. And that's not all -- M-W Online has among other things: 5 a : a number of similar articles, items, or devices arranged, connected, or used together : SET, SERIES <a battery of tests> b : a usually impressive or imposing group : ARRAY SignatureSkitt (in SF Bay Area) ... and that, my liege, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped. -- Sir Bedevere > > Interestingly, in the US, C cells and D cells, AA and AAA are called > > batteries As they are in the UK. > > even though they only have one cell in each. Unfortunately, it seems to me to be a lost cause, trying to establish "cell" for AA and AAA batteries. Outside electronics contexts, the term is always "battery". > > Only car batteries and 9 volt batteries are actually batteries. > Two or more artillery pieces are a battery. A baseball pitcher and catcher > are a battery. As are a chess piece that gives discovered check and the man that moves out of the "firing line" to discover the check. -- Richard Sabey Visit the r.p.crosswords competition website cryptic_fan at hotmail.com http://www.rsabey.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/rpc/ Someone is sending German-language spam with a forged From: line, purporting to be from me. Please be informed: I spam nobody. >In alt.english.usage on 9 Jul 2004 09:15:49 -0700 >djpicton@bigmailbox.net (David Picton) posted: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Only car batteries and 9 volt batteries are actually batteries. The only cells that I have heard referred to as 'accumulators' were the 2 volt cells used to heat the filaments in old valve wireless sets. I used to take ours to the shop to be recharged about every fortnight. Mike - M.J.Powell >Interestingly, in the US, C cells and D cells, AA and AAA are called >batteries even though they only have one cell in each. > >Only car batteries and 9 volt batteries are actually batteries. Not really, there are plenty of other examples. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > In alt.english.usage on 9 Jul 2004 09:15:49 -0700 > djpicton@bigmailbox.net (David Picton) posted: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Interestingly, in the US, C cells and D cells, AA and AAA are called > batteries even though they only have one cell in each. It's the same in the UK. In common parlance, they're all batteries. > Only car batteries and 9 volt batteries are actually batteries. Various other types are still available in the UK with different multiples of 1.5 volts e.g. 4.5, 6 volts. >Only car batteries and 9 volt batteries are actually batteries. And, further to David Picton's list, so are some batteries for cordless phones, camcorders, digital cameras, computer motherboards. There are also Sealed Lead Acid Batteries of various sizes and capacities for use in power supply backup systems. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) > Accumulator: I think this was common in the 1940s but had gone out of > use by the 1960s. (My father worked for a company which manufactured > car batteries and they were never referred to as accumulators.) I don't recall car batteries *ever* being called accumulators. I *do* remember learning aboiut the science of batteries at school (probably in the late '50s), when accumulators and car batteries were used as *different* examples. An accumulatgor was a glass structure that sat on a table next to the wireless and provided a risk if spilling acid when you took it down the shop to be recharged. > I think that 'Fount' went out with the introduction of modern > computer-based printing technology (mainly in the 1980s). It was certainly a word associated with movable-type printing, but that' s still around (if only in the hands of a few enthusiasts). As I said in my earlier post, it's not synonym,ous with "font", although clearly related. > 'Wireless' was common in the 1960s but went into rapid decline > afterwards. The term 'radio' isn't really an Americanism, It was, IIRC, invented by Marconi, an Italian working mainly in the UK. I think the early pioneers (probably on both sides of the pond) would have said that they were using radio signals to achieve wireless communication (later wireless broadcasting). Hence the two words existed side-by-side from the beginning. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Old mathematicians never die - they simply lose their class. > > Accumulator: I think this was common in the 1940s but had gone out of > > use by the 1960s. (My father worked for a company which manufactured [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the wireless and provided a risk if spilling acid when you took it down the > shop to be recharged. The wireless accumulator was a single 2V lead acid cell, whereas a car battery has a series of lead acid cells. The only fundamental difference is the number of cells. The term "accumulator" was used (and is still sometimes used, especially in technical and specialized contexts) as a general term for a rechargeable cell or battery - especially the lead acid type. See http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/encyclopaedia/hutchinson/m0003086.html I have found references to "accumulator" being the preferred term for car batteries in the pre-war period. For example, see: http://www.toomey.uk.com/home_content.htm In 1932: "the battery, or as it was then better known, the accumulator" > Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) > displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Sparking plug: spark plug > Wireless: radio I think you're making assertions unsupported by research. 'accumulator', for instance, wasn't used exclusively (or, IIRC, generally) for a car battery. OED points to various uses of the term: <1883 Gladstone & Tribe Chem. Secondary Batteries, p. ix, It is somewhat unfortunate that they have been called 'accumulators' or 'storage batteries'. 1911 Encycl. Brit. XXII. 227/2 A hydraulic accumulator ordinarily consists of a hydraulic cylinder and ram, the ram being loaded with sufficient weight to give the pressure required in the hydraulic mains. 1946 Electronics Apr. 310/2 The arithmetic elements include 20 accumulators, 1 multiplier and 1 combination divider and square rooter. 1947 D. R. Hartree Calculating Machines 17 An accumulator+has a number of channels for the reception and transmission of numerical information. 1949 Gloss. Aeronaut. Terms (B.S.I.) ii. 15 Fuel accumulator, a device for storing fuel, during a portion of the starting cycle, in order to augment the flow momentarily when a predetermined fuel pressure has been reached. 1949 Gloss. Terms Refrigeration (B.S.I.) 4 Accumulator, a liquid refrigerant container in the low-pressure side of the system. > And 'battery' for an electrical component was in use here before the USA existed. 'gangway' and 'aisle' have co-existed for a long time. On 'quit' OED says < The exact range of ME. quVtte(n is difficult to determine (cf. quit:a); the usual form was undoubtedly quWte(n. The pa. tense and pa. pple. of this were usually quitte, quit (less commonly quited), and this fact may have assisted in the general substitution of quit for quite which began in the latter part of the 16th c., and was practically complete by 1650. During the first half of the 17th c. the pa. tense and pple. vary between quit and quitted, the former being freq. employed even by writers who use quit in the inf. and pres.; in later use quitted is the standard form, quit being now chiefly dial. and U.S. colloquial.]> 'Radio' was in use here from the earliest days - which is why the BBC called its listings magazine 'Radio Times', not 'Wireless Times', when it was first published in 1923 SignatureJohn 'etc' Dean Oxford > I think you're making assertions unsupported by research. 'accumulator', > for instance, wasn't used exclusively (or, IIRC, generally) for a car > battery. OED points to various uses of the term: [snip dictionary entry with sundry meanings of "accumulator"] > And 'battery' for an electrical component was in use here before the USA > existed. The battery was invented in 1800. What "electrical component" did the term you mention refer to? Don Kansas City >> I think you're making assertions unsupported by research. >> 'accumulator', for instance, wasn't used exclusively (or, IIRC, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > The battery was invented in 1800. You don't accept the 'Baghdad battery'? It could generate up to 2 volts and is dated to 250 BC. It was used for electroplating and batteries were used for electroplating by early civilisations such as the Babylonian and Egyptian. But you want to stick to Count Volta? OK. What about Ben Franklin? Usually credited with coining the term (in 1748) as well as showing the 18th Century how to make one. Though contemporaries of his were also generating electricity from early capacitors. Volta produced *a* battery, but he was far from being the first. Nicholson, Carlisle and Davy were using batteries in 1800 but never thought to claim they invented them. > What "electrical component" did > the term you mention refer to? Franklin's charged glass plates? The Leyden jars (invented c. 1745/6) connected in parallel by various C18 experimenters? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > You don't accept the 'Baghdad battery'? It could generate up to 2 volts > and is dated to 250 BC. It was used for electroplating and batteries [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Franklin's charged glass plates? The Leyden jars (invented c. 1745/6) > connected in parallel by various C18 experimenters? All of these things were called "batteries" before 1776? I find that a little hard to believe. But I can't disprove it, so I'll have to take your word for it. Thanks John. Don Kansas City >> You don't accept the 'Baghdad battery'? It could generate up to 2 >> volts and is dated to 250 BC. It was used for electroplating and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > a little hard to believe. But I can't disprove it, so I'll have to > take your word for it. Thanks John. Well, allow me to slip in a cite from the OED: <<9. Electr. An apparatus consisting of a number of Leyden jars so connected that they may be charged and discharged simultaneously. 1748 Franklin Lett. Wks. 1840 V. 202 An electrical battery, consisting of eleven panes of large sash-glass, armed with thin leaden plates. >> Or what appears to be a direct quote (para 4.20): http://tinyurl.com/3apoy SignatureJohn Dean Oxford On 09 Jul 2004, Don A. Gilmore wrote >> You don't accept the 'Baghdad battery'? It could generate up to 2 >> volts and is dated to 250 BC. It was used for electroplating and [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > that a little hard to believe. But I can't disprove it, so I'll > have to take your word for it. Thanks John. You can take OED's word for it, too -- that's where the 1748 citation from Franklin can be found. (He even used the phrase "an electrical battery" for his arrangement of glass plates.) SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to harvey.van) > >> I think you're making assertions unsupported by research. > >> 'accumulator', for instance, wasn't used exclusively (or, IIRC, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > were used for electroplating by early civilisations such as the > Babylonian and Egyptian. But I suspect the Babylonians didn't use the word "battery"! What would interest me is any evidence as to when it became true that the word "battery" on its own without "electrical" or "storage" appended would be assumed to mean an electrical battery rather than any of the other meanings of the word. -- Mike Stevens narowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Million-to-one chances turn up nine times out of ten. (Terry Pratchett) > And 'battery' for an electrical component was in use here before the USA > existed. That's true. But it was an Americanism, even then. Franklin in 1748 seems to have been the first to call a series of Leyden jars a "battery." >> And 'battery' for an electrical component was in use here before the >> USA existed. > > That's true. But it was an Americanism, even then. Franklin in 1748 > seems to have been the first to call a series of Leyden jars a > "battery." Serendipity strikes in the safest of newsgroups. Today's Guardian Review has a review by Jay Parini of Walter Isaacson's 'Benjamin Franklin: An American Life'. http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,1257159,00.html Parini says [Franklin] "... also improved on the designs for urinary catheters and storage batteries." Whether that's Mr Parini's view or something gleaned from Mr Isaacson isn't clear. However, the implication is clear that batteries were around before Ben started his experiments because he 'improved' an existing design. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> And 'battery' for an electrical component was in use here before the USA >> existed. > > That's true. But it was an Americanism, even then. Franklin in 1748 > seems to have been the first to call a series of Leyden jars a "battery." Aren't Leyden jars capacitors, rather than batteries. Do North Americans still call capacitors condensers? SignatureDave Clarke >> Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >> displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >called its listings magazine 'Radio Times', not 'Wireless Times', when >it was first published in 1923 Marconi's Wireless Telegraph Company 1897 Mike SignatureM.J.Powell >>Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >>displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Refrigeration (B.S.I.) 4 Accumulator, a liquid refrigerant container in > the low-pressure side of the system. > Moreover, with cars, 'accumulator' was the word that replaced 'dynamo', so there would have been massive confusion. SignatureRob Bannister >...Moreover, with cars, 'accumulator' was the word that replaced 'dynamo'... Not in my experience. The word "generator" (or sometimes "dynamo") was replaced by "alternator" because generators were replaced by alternators. I don't recall hearing a word change for the same type of device. SignatureJohn W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> Cochrane, Alberta, Canada. "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age" >> ...Moreover, with cars, 'accumulator' was the word that replaced >> 'dynamo'... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > alternators. I don't recall hearing a word change for the same type of > device. Let's not forget the magneto. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>> ...Moreover, with cars, 'accumulator' was the word that replaced >>> 'dynamo'... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Let's not forget the magneto. I wasn't forgetting it, but it served a different purpose - that of energising the "sparkling" plugs, not running the lights & recharging the battery. Somewhere deep in the Black Forest is (or was around 1961) a magnificent magneto out of a Mercedes, IIRC. The owner of a wayside garage (a real garage, i.e. one that fixes things wrong with cars) used to light his welding torch. He turned on the water drip to the calcium carbide container, and when acetylene was generated, cranked the magneto by hand while holding the torch near a wire forming a spark gap. The matt black sooty area contrasted nicely with the polished aluminium casting. SignatureJohn W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> Cochrane, Alberta, Canada. "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age" > "Skitt" wrote: >>>> ...Moreover, with cars, 'accumulator' was the word that replaced >>>> 'dynamo'... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > energising the "sparkling" plugs, not running the lights & recharging > the battery. On motorcycles they ran the lights. Not very "sparklingly", however. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>...Moreover, with cars, 'accumulator' was the word that replaced 'dynamo'... > > Not in my experience. The word "generator" (or sometimes "dynamo") was > replaced by "alternator" because generators were replaced by > alternators. I don't recall hearing a word change for the same type of > device. I think I might have had a brain fart there. "Alternator" is, of course, correct, and now I do remember a brief flirtation with 'accumulator' for 'battery'. It was 0.6 degrees yesterday morning, so I suspect my mind hadn't been properly defrosted. SignatureRob Bannister >Moreover, with cars, 'accumulator' was the word that replaced 'dynamo', >so there would have been massive confusion. Wasn't that "alternator"? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk "David Picton" <djpicton@bigmailbox.net> wrote in message I'm not sure to what extent these have been displaced. > Accumulator: car battery When I was kid, accumulators were common. They weren't much like car batteries (physically - I guess they were chemically indentical). Their most common use was to power wireless sets in houses (in rural areas) that didn't have mains electricity. > Billion: originally 'large' (10^12), now 'small' (10^9) Many UK people distinguish between "US billion" and "UK billion" as different numbers. Some of us refuse to use the word with such distinction, in order to avoid confusion. > Fount: as typeface, now usually 'font' I'm not convinced that "fount" was ever used in this sense outside the printing industry, where (I'm told by people who know more than I about such matters) its use was not identical to the present-day computer-based use of the word "font". I don't know whether the few surviving moveable-print printers still use the word "fount". > Gangway: as a passage between seats in a theatre etc., now > largely displaced by 'aisle' I think the two uses exist side-by-side in the UK at the moment. > Quitted: past of 'quit' is now usually 'quit' I've never come across "quitted". > Sparking plug: spark plug Was "spark plug" US in origin? I'd have geussed that both uses were once common in the UK, but "spark plug" is now much more common than "sparking plug". > Wireless: radio "Radio" certainly wasn't solely US in origin. It was the recognised name of the system from its very beginning, with "wireless" as a popular alternative that fell out of use (well, largely, it's still used a bit). >> Wireless: radio > >"Radio" certainly wasn't solely US in origin. It was the recognised name of >the system from its very beginning, with "wireless" as a popular alternative >that fell out of use (well, largely, it's still used a bit). 'Wireless' is staging a strong comeback in the area of computer networking. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >> Accumulator: car battery > >When I was kid, accumulators were common. They weren't much like car >batteries (physically - I guess they were chemically indentical). Their >most common use was to power wireless sets in houses (in rural areas) that >didn't have mains electricity. An accumulator is a rechargeable battery, whether in a car a wireless set, a laptop computer or anywhere else. >> Billion: originally 'large' (10^12), now 'small' (10^9) > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >the word "font". I don't know whether the few surviving moveable-print >printers still use the word "fount". Pronounced "font". The "font" selling belongs to computers and includes screen display as well as printing; "fount" is strictly typesetters' terminology. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > An accumulator is a rechargeable battery, whether in a car a wireless set, a > laptop computer or anywhere else. In a context concerning computers I'd think of the register in a CPU, rather than the battery. SignatureOdysseus >> An accumulator is a rechargeable battery, whether in a car a wireless set, a >> laptop computer or anywhere else. >> >In a context concerning computers I'd think of the register in a CPU, >rather than the battery. Perhaps that's why they don't call it an accumulator. Reminds me of the Peugeot advertising slogan of the 1970s, "More than a sugar coated pill". English-speaking people were bemused by seeing this sign in the back windows of lots of cars until a newspaper columnist investigated it, and found that it was a mistranslation of a French advertising slogan which meant "Not only the battery is sweet". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk On Friday, in article <2l7sdiF9s818U1@uni-berlin.de> > > Wireless: radio > > "Radio" certainly wasn't solely US in origin. It was the recognised name of > the system from its very beginning, with "wireless" as a popular alternative > that fell out of use (well, largely, it's still used a bit). Particularly as "wireless network". Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". >Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? <snip> Lorry: truck SignatureJohn Hall Weep not for little Leonie Abducted by a French Marquis! Though loss of honour was a wrench Just think how it's improved her French. Harry Graham (1874-1936) On 09 Jul 2004, John Hall wrote >> Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been >> (mostly) displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? ><snip> > > Lorry: truck I've not noticed any major switch to "truck"; I'll have to listen out for that one. SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to harvey.van) On Friday, in article <Xns9521BB9E84459whhvans@62.253.162.203> > On 09 Jul 2004, John Hall wrote > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I've not noticed any major switch to "truck"; I'll have to listen out > for that one. Indeed; if anything is used as an alternative to "lorry", it's probably "wagon" (or, of course, "artic" [~= "semi" in AmEng]). Hmm, what do leftpondians call a pantechnicon? Whilst this word is not exactly common in BrEnglish, I reckon many people would recognize and understand it. (Hm, do Brits move house too frequently?) Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". > Hmm, what do leftpondians call a pantechnicon? A "moving van". SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >On Friday, in article > <Xns9521BB9E84459whhvans@62.253.162.203> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> I've not noticed any major switch to "truck"; I'll have to listen out >> for that one. To me it is a question os size. bakkie, lorry, truck A bakkie is a light vehicle for carrying goods in an open tray (as opposed to a van). See AusE = ute A lorry is bigger, with two axles and 6 wheels. A truck is articulated, usually with 26 wheels or more (fewer than 26 might be an articulated lorry). I thought the BrE term for those was "juggernaut", at leaat I remember Brit newspapers warning of a looming invasion of juggernauts from the continent as a result of the common market, channel tunnel or whatever (do things ever loom other than in newspaper headlines?) SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > bakkie, lorry, truck > > A bakkie is a light vehicle for carrying goods in an open tray (as opposed to > a van). See AusE = ute That's an AmE "pickup (truck)". > Hmm, what do leftpondians call a pantechnicon? Whilst this word is not > exactly common in BrEnglish, I reckon many people would recognize and > understand it. (Hm, do Brits move house too frequently?) A pantechnicon was, of course, a place for all the (applied) arts. An emporium, if you will. (In much the same way, I suppose, that Marks & Spencers in Oxford Street is a pantheon.) SignatureJohn Briggs > On 09 Jul 2004, John Hall wrote > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I've not noticed any major switch to "truck"; I'll have to listen out > for that one. I propose to have no truck with that. Though John Godber might. SignatureJohn 'A red lorry and a yellow lorry' Dean Oxford > >Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) > >displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? > <snip> > Lorry: truck In England they have articulated lorries. I've tried to think of a single formal term for them in the US, but I can come up with only the slangish words: "semi", "18-wheeler", or "big rig". "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's just the trailer that the tractor tows, but still the combination of the tractor and the semi-trailer is commonly called a "semi", pronounced ['sEmaI]. (Yes, the vehicle that tows a semi-trailer, which many people would call a truck, is a tractor.) If I were forced to refer formally to our equivalent of the articulated lorry, all I could think of is "tractor-trailer". What term am I overlooking? Do the British lately ever call their articulated lorries big rigs, 18-wheelers, or semis? Do they call them something else? Do they call the tow vehicle a tractor? > > >Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) > > >displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > big rigs, 18-wheelers, or semis? Do they call them > something else? Do they call the tow vehicle a tractor? Many U.S.states register tractor trailers under the term apportioned. > Many U.S.states register tractor trailers under the term > apportioned. That's because the registration fees are apportioned to the states the vehicle is operated in. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ In alt.english.usage on Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:10:13 GMT "raymond o'hara" <reoh@comcast.net> posted: >> > >Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >> > >displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Many U.S.states register tractor trailers under the term apportioned. They may put that in some field on the registration but that's not what they're called. It refers to the fact that they may be licensed in several states at the same time, but not have to pay full registration charges in any of them, since they spend most of their time somewhere else. They used to put multiple plates on, from the different states, but I haven't been paying attention to what they do now. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > In alt.english.usage on Sat, 10 Jul 2004 04:10:13 GMT "raymond o'hara" > <reoh@comcast.net> posted: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > They used to put multiple plates on, from the different states, but I > haven't been paying attention to what they do now. The multiple plates are a type of highway tax, in Massachusetts they need a gas tax stamp, this assures they pay the tax associated with gas tax on pump fuel.Trucks with their large fuel tanks and long range may not have to buy fuel in states they pass through and thus not pay the tax at the pump, so states make them pay upfront. > "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's just the trailer that the > tractor tows, but still the combination of the tractor and the > semi-trailer is commonly called a "semi", pronounced ['sEmaI]. Izzat so? ['sEmi] sounds no less correct to me than ['sEmaI] for that sense. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > > "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's just the > > trailer that the tractor tows, but still the combination > > of the tractor and the semi-trailer is commonly called a > > "semi", pronounced ['sEmaI]. > Izzat so? ['sEmi] sounds no less correct to me than ['sEmaI] > for that sense. There's no such thing in English usage as correct or incorrect. All I know is what I've heard and what I've said. The only pronunciation I've heard and used over the years is ['sEmaI]. Actually, I shouldn't have used the phrase "commonly called". I used to hear ['sEmaI] a lot, but I think it may have fallen out of use. I wouldn't expect to hear anyone say it these days. All I ever hear anymore is "big rig" or just "truck". If someone says "There were really a lot of trucks on the freeway this afternoon," few people will fail to understand that, without qualification, "trucks" means eighteen-wheeled tractor-trailer rigs. At 10:53:05 on Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> wrote in <clhve0p0ki9afenl06l0lga1v53ba9fm6k@4ax.com>: >If someone says "There were really a lot of trucks on the >freeway this afternoon," few people will fail to understand >that, without qualification, "trucks" means eighteen-wheeled >tractor-trailer rigs. I'm just back home from three weeks in New Mexico, where the word "truck" was used for both a pick-up truck and an 18-wheeler. Since there seemed to be little else than these on the roads (the white pick-up truck seems to be the personal transport vehicle of choice in the Albuquerque/Santa Fe area), this usage did not promote clarification. ("Turn right where that truck is.") Once, but only once, I heard a reference to a "pick-up", and a couple of times to a "rig" - but mostly it was "truck". Local resident to me: "Don't get into arguments with anyone driving a truck around here - they're likely to have a shotgun in the back." Me: "Wouldn't they lose their jobs with the haulage companies if they took to shooting people?" Local resident: "No, not _that_ kind of truck, the other kind." SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >I'm just back home from three weeks in New Mexico, where the word >"truck" was used for both a pick-up truck and an 18-wheeler. Since [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I heard a reference to a "pick-up", and a couple of times to a "rig" - >but mostly it was "truck". As a token American (who's traveled all over southern England), I'd like to chime in. While it's true that layman Americans refer to both pick-up's and 18-wheelers as "trucks", you'll find that those who drive 18-wheelers are likely to refer to their vehicles as "rigs" or "semi's" (sem-eyes). I rarely refer to pick-up's as trucks, as nowadays virtually none of them are used to haul anything except passengers. I refer to them as "pick-up's". Now that 4 out of every 10 vehicles in my region are SUV's, things get even weirder. Owners of these idiotic vehicles do not like to refer to them as SUV's. It's my guess that they don't like working through three syllables to describe their vehicles. Instead, they are increasingly being referred to as "cars", probably because owners and non-owners alike have conciously accepted the fact that these vehicles are exclusively passenger vehicles with little to no utility for anything else. In homes with more than one (or two, or three) vehicles, SUV's are referred to by their branding, ie "Hey, Hon, let's take the Xterra today". SUV has become a dirty word, something manufacturers are just now discovering. Oddly, they seem to be the last ones aware of the public perception of their product lines. - TR - Honda Accord owner. > > > "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's just the > > > trailer that the tractor tows, but still the combination [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > There's no such thing in English usage as correct or > incorrect. Coillons! (And that's appropriate Middle English usage!) Semi is pronounced "Sem" to rhyme with them, and "mi" to rhyme with me. See-My is the US pronunciation, which is as usual, extremely ugly. "A nation of phonetic poseurs" describes them well. Nemo > Semi is pronounced "Sem" to rhyme with them, and "mi" to rhyme with me. > > See-My is the US pronunciation... No it isn't. Don Kansas City > > Semi is pronounced "Sem" to rhyme with them, and "mi" to rhyme with me. > > > > See-My is the US pronunciation... > > No it isn't. Yes it is - in the same vein as Hee-Low as the abbreviated form of helicopter. I have *never* heard anyone in the UK use See-My - not even on the BBC. > > > Semi is pronounced "Sem" to rhyme with them, and "mi" to rhyme with me. > > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > helicopter. I have *never* heard anyone in the UK use See-My - not even on > the BBC. It's the first syllable we are doubting, whether anyone in the US says "see." Americans say both "sem-mee" and "sem-miy" (as in the word "my") but the first syllable is never "see". Unless you are aware of some special regionalism or jargon term that the rest of us are not. Which meaning does it have, in that case? (Bart Simpson phone prank going through my mind -- "Seymour Butts.") SignatureBest - Donna Richoux An American living in the Netherlands >> > > Semi is pronounced "Sem" to rhyme with them, and "mi" to rhyme with me. >> > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > but the first syllable is never "see". Unless you are aware of some > special regionalism or jargon term that the rest of us are not. I wonder whether he's a BrE, say, who is hearing some particular American accent's /E/ realization as an /i/. PIPs, for example, will say "semi" in a way that might sound like "simmy" or "simm-eye" to PINPs. > > > > Semi is pronounced "Sem" to rhyme with them, and "mi" to rhyme with me. > > > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > (Bart Simpson phone prank going through my mind -- "Seymour Butts.") :o) Not to mention Mike Hunt! "Swine! I told you not to mention Mike Hunt!" > > > See-My is the US pronunciation... > > > > No it isn't. > > > Yes it is I have lived in the US all my life and have never heard it pronounced "see-my". So, it isn't. I imagine someone, somewhere, could be saying it that way, but I'd bet that person is pronouncing a lot of other words incorrectly as well. ("Newkyeler", anyone? How about "bisketti"?) For that matter, if you're using "the US pronunciation" to refer to the Standard American English dialect, it's my understanding that someone using that dialect would never willingly use the word "semi" anyway. SignatureMichael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? >> > See-My is the US pronunciation... >> >> No it isn't. >> > Yes it is - in the same vein as Hee-Low as the abbreviated form of > helicopter. Searching MWCD11 shows that pronunciation, but I can't say I've ever heard anyone actually use it. When I've read it, I've always mentally pronounced it /hEloU/. > I have *never* heard anyone in the UK use See-My - not even on > the BBC. Nor have I ever heard it used in the US. In the Deep South, you'd hear a lot of /semai/, in sports it's almost always /semi/, but never is it /simai/. -=Eric SignatureCome to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare. -- Blair Houghton. >>> > See-My is the US pronunciation... >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > heard anyone actually use it. When I've read it, I've always mentally > pronounced it /hEloU/. There was an episode of _The Flintstones_ where a character said "Hey dad, let's get the heliocopter!", pronouncing the last word /hilioUkAptR/. > When I've read it, I've always mentally pronounced it /hEloU/. Just a SWAG, but I believe the military pronounce it "hee-low" to prevent someone from mistaking the word for the greeting, "hello". Especially on the radio or in noisy areas, it's advantageous to avoid accidental phonological ambiguity. SignatureMichael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? >>> Semi is pronounced "Sem" to rhyme with them, and "mi" to rhyme with me. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > helicopter. I have *never* heard anyone in the UK use See-My - not even on > the BBC. No, it is *not* "the US pronunciation". I lived in the US for fifty years, including four years in the military, and never heard either 'see-my' or 'hee-low'. I did hear, very rarely, "hee-licopter", but I associate that with child's speech or rustic speech. SignatureMichael West Melbourne, Australia >>>> Semi is pronounced "Sem" to rhyme with them, and "mi" to rhyme with me. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >No, it is *not* "the US pronunciation". The US pronunciation is "sem-eye". I'm an American who has lived and worked in New York, Tennessee, California and the Pacific Northwest. It's "sem-eye". >I lived in the US for fifty years, including >four years in the military, and never heard >either 'see-my' or 'hee-low'. Only because you never served in the US Navy, which is just about the only organization that refers to helicopters as "hee-low's". It was impressed upon in US Navy C-school that in the Army, they're "choppers". In the Navy, they're helo's. And never the twain <snigger> shall meet. - TR > > > > "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's just the > > > > trailer that the tractor tows, but still the combination [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Nemo The only time you might hear sem my is when used as a stand alone to describe a trailer truck,otherwise it's sem me as in semi-sweet chocolate. > > > > "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's just the > > > > trailer that the tractor tows, but still the combination > > > > of the tractor and the semi-trailer is commonly called a > > > > "semi", pronounced ['sEmaI]. > > > Izzat so? ['sEmi] sounds no less correct to me than ['sEmaI] > > > for that sense. > > There's no such thing in English usage as correct or > > incorrect. > Coillons! (And that's appropriate Middle English usage!) > Semi is pronounced "Sem" to rhyme with them, and "mi" to rhyme with me. > See-My is the US pronunciation, which is as usual, extremely ugly. "A nation > of phonetic poseurs" describes them well. Have you had this problem long? >> "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's just the trailer that >> the tractor tows, but still the combination of the tractor and the >> semi-trailer is commonly called a "semi", pronounced ['sEmaI]. > > Izzat so? ['sEmi] sounds no less correct to me than ['sEmaI] for > that sense. I'll have to vote with Bob on that one. In "semi-trailer" it can go either way, but as a noun, I've heard "semi" pretty much invariably as /sEmaI/. MWCD11 gives /sEmaI/, with /sEmi/ as an "also" (significantly less common) variant. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If you think health care is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |expensive now, wait until you see Palo Alto, CA 94304 |what it costs when it's free. | P.J. O'Rourke kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >> "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's just the trailer that > >> the tractor tows, but still the combination of the tractor and the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > /sEmaI/. MWCD11 gives /sEmaI/, with /sEmi/ as an "also" > (significantly less common) variant. I think ['sEmi] might be more prevalent among younger AmE speakers, at least in some regions of the country. Compare the now-trendy automotive term "hemi" (engine using hemispherical combustion chambers), invariably pronounced ['hEmi]. > > >> "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's just the trailer that > > >> the tractor tows, but still the combination of the tractor and the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > /sEmaI/. MWCD11 gives /sEmaI/, with /sEmi/ as an "also" > > (significantly less common) variant. I once heard Leonard Bernstein talking about heem-eye deem-eye seem-eye quavers. >> >> "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's just the trailer that >> >> the tractor tows, but still the combination of the tractor and the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > term "hemi" (engine using hemispherical combustion chambers), invariably > pronounced ['hEmi]. ProQuest should be able to uncover a Bill Safire column about the "semi" pronunciation, probably from the very late '70s (or 1980). I remember reading it when I were a lad -- it made reference to the 1977 football comedy _Semi-Tough_, starring Burt Reynolds and Kris Kristofferson, the title of which used /sEmaI/. (Why do I remember things like this? I dunno.) >> >> "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's just the trailer that >> >> the tractor tows, but still the combination of the tractor and the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >term "hemi" (engine using hemispherical combustion chambers), invariably >pronounced ['hEmi]. It may be trendy now but the Chrysler Hemi engine was called that by car enthusiasts at least as far back as the late 1950's. Brian Wickham >>I think ['sEmi] might be more prevalent among younger AmE speakers, at >>least in some regions of the country. Compare the now-trendy automotive [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It may be trendy now but the Chrysler Hemi engine was called that by > car enthusiasts at least as far back as the late 1950's. Which just proves that what goes around, comes around. Especially when crankshafts and flywheels are involved. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >> "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's just the trailer that > >> the tractor tows, but still the combination of the tractor and the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > /sEmaI/. MWCD11 gives /sEmaI/, with /sEmi/ as an "also" > (significantly less common) variant. Quite different over this side. Semi-trailer is not well known. I don't recall ever hearing it from a fellow Brit (unless he had lived in the States) and the first time that I heard it, I did not know what it meant. This is a bit surprising since so many US terms are now familiar here. "Truck" no longer seems to be thought of as a US word and for some it seems the normal term in place of "lorry". If I understand "semi-trailer" correctly, it is what we call an "articulated lorry/truck" which is commonly abbreviated to "artic". I would only say "artic" or "articulated lorry" if there was a need to be so specific. Normally I would just say "truck" or "lorry". I use both but I am not sure which I use more often. Semi as a noun is used but means a house. It is an abbreviation of semi-detached house. In case that does not make much sense, it is one of a pair of houses which share a wall. It is a step up from a "terraced house" which is one of a whole row but not the Englishman's dream of a detached house. It is very hard to consider a terraced or a semi-detached house, a castle. For a start, you need your neighbour's consent to build a moat. But a detached house can easily be considered a castle and you can build a moat (subject to planning permission). The only pronunciation of semi that I recall hearing from a Brit is: ['sEmi] regardless of whether it is a prefix or standing alone. ['sEmaI] still sounds very strange to me. Seán O'Leathlóbhair [...] > The only pronunciation of semi that I recall hearing from a Brit is: > ['sEmi] regardless of whether it is a prefix or standing alone. > ['sEmaI] still sounds very strange to me. I can empathize with that feeling. Even though I say ['sEmaI], I would say ['hEmi], not ['hEmai], for "hemi" as a stand-alone word. In a prefixed word I might say ['sEmi] or ['hEmi] ("semmy" or "hemmy"), but I would be more likely to say ['sEm@] or ['hEm@] ("semuh" or "hemuh"), as in "hemisphere" ['hEm@,sfIr] and "semicircle" ['sEm@,s@rkl-]. > In a prefixed word I might say ['sEmi] or ['hEmi] ("semmy" > or "hemmy"), but I would be more likely to say ['sEm@] or > ['hEm@] ("semuh" or "hemuh"), as in "hemisphere" > ['hEm@,sfIr] and "semicircle" ['sEm@,s@rkl-]. I use the schwa in "hemisphere", but in any other hemi- and semi- words I can think of I use /i/ rather than /@/. "Semicircle" is /sEmisRk@l/, e.g. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ['sEmaI], I would say ['hEmi], not ['hEmai], for "hemi" as a > stand-alone word. I don't think that I have ever heard "hemi" as a stand alone word but if I did then I would expect ['hEmi]. After hemisphere, the next hemi word that comes to mind is hemidemisemiquaver which usually amuses children. Do you use that over your way or do you always use "sixty-fourth note"? If you don't know what I am talking about see: http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/notation/notation.html > In a prefixed word I might say ['sEmi] or ['hEmi] ("semmy" > or "hemmy"), but I would be more likely to say ['sEm@] or > ['hEm@] ("semuh" or "hemuh"), as in "hemisphere" > ['hEm@,sfIr] and "semicircle" ['sEm@,s@rkl-]. The i may become [@] for me in unstressed positions, I am not a good enough phonetician to say. There is the danger that I would be describing what I expected to hear rather than what was really said. Seán O'Leathlóbhair > After hemisphere, the next hemi word that comes to mind is > hemidemisemiquaver which usually amuses children. Do you use that > over your way or do you always use "sixty-fourth note"? If you don't > know what I am talking about see: > http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/notation/notation.html "Sixty-fourth note". We only use the "(2^n)th note)" system of names for note duration in the U.S., as far as I know. "Quaver" is vaguely known because we like to make fun of the word "hemidemisemiquaver". I'd guess that "crotchet" and "minim" are virtually unknown. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > I don't think that I have ever heard "hemi" as a stand alone word but > if I did then I would expect ['hEmi]. In the US we refer to a type of automobile engine from the 1960's, with a hemispherical combustion chamber in its head, as a "hemi" (pronounced like "hemmy"). At the time, it was an improvement in the performance and power of the engine. Recently the hemi has been resurrected. I'm not sure why, since it is a forty-year leap backward in technology. I suspect it was reintroduced to appeal to middle-aged American men who remember when saying that your car "had a hemi" was considered impressive. > After hemisphere, the next hemi word that comes to mind is > hemidemisemiquaver which usually amuses children. Do you use that > over your way or do you always use "sixty-fourth note"? If you don't > know what I am talking about see: > http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/notation/notation.html No, we don't use the term "quaver" in music, though any decent musician is familiar with the term. We use the more compact fractional notation. I have always thought it strange that "whole", "half" and "quarter" would be followed by "quaver". I have also wondered what a 1/128th note might be called. SignatureDon A. Gilmore Mechanical Engineer Kansas City > No, we don't use the term "quaver" in music, though any decent musician is > familiar with the term. We use the more compact fractional notation. I > have always thought it strange that "whole", "half" and "quarter" would be > followed by "quaver". I have also wondered what a 1/128th note might be > called. According to http://www.learnclassicalguitar.com/music-notation.html either a "quasihemidemisemiquaver" or a "semihemidemisemiquaver". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |In the beginning, there were no 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |reasons, there were only causes. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Daniel Dennet kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > No, we don't use the term "quaver" in music, though any decent musician is > > familiar with the term. We use the more compact fractional notation. I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > either a "quasihemidemisemiquaver" or a "semihemidemisemiquaver". Interesting. So the "semi-" is recycled. Apparently, to go a step further would require the resurrection of the "hemi-" and so on. Thanks. Don Kansas City >> No, we don't use the term "quaver" in music, though any decent musician >> is familiar with the term. We use the more compact fractional notation. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > either a "quasihemidemisemiquaver" or a "semihemidemisemiquaver". More likely just a "grace note" :-) SignatureJohn Briggs >>> No, we don't use the term "quaver" in music, though any decent >>> musician is familiar with the term. We use the more compact [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > More likely just a "grace note" :-) Acciaccatura, acciacatura; la la la la la la laa. SignatureRay > > According to > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > More likely just a "grace note" :-) No, a "grace note" is different. Grace notes are ornamental notes that come slightly before a note within the normal rhythm. They are shown in written music as tiny notes (much smaller than the rest of the ordinary notes) and with a diagonal line slashed through them to indicate that they are independent of the musical time. They are quick and could quite possibly have a value close to 1/128th, but are never written as such. Infrequently one encounters actual 1/128th notes, connected by five bars. Those are the notes I was curious about. Don > > > According to > > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > one encounters actual 1/128th notes, connected by five bars. Those are the > notes I was curious about. In pipe music the grace-notes (which occur very frequently, singly or in groups of up to four -- or even more) are written as small demisemiquavers (thirty-second notes), stems up -- the stems of the melody notes all point downwards. I learned the traditional names "semibreve", "minim", &c. in the course of my elementary music-theory classes, but I've only heard any of them 'in the wild' from pipers, and that rarely. SignatureOdysseus >>> No, we don't use the term "quaver" in music, though any decent musician >>> is familiar with the term. We use the more compact fractional notation. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > More likely just a "grace note" :-) Very different, to my mind. I'd only expect to see 128th notes barred with something else, probably in a run of 64ths or 32nds. Grace notes don't actually count as time and anticipate the note they are written before. And I doubt that they're usually much faster than 32nds, anyway. 128ths are *fast*. The only piece I can remember playing them in (although I'm sure they came up here and there elsewhere) is Beethoven's "Pathetique", where the intro ends with a run of sixteen of them. Of course, that's a "grave" passage, so the base is slow, but it still took a lot of practice to get them all in. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Marge: You liked Rashomon. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Homer: That's not how *I* remember Palo Alto, CA 94304 | it. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > More likely just a "grace note" :-) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > before. And I doubt that they're usually much faster than 32nds, > anyway. 128ths are *fast*. Especially in alla breve, eh? ;-) Don >> > More likely just a "grace note" :-) >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Especially in alla breve, eh? ;-) *That* I've never seen. In normal time, largo, with the metronome at a ponderous 60, a 128th is just over 30 milliseconds. I suspect that that's fast enough that it's physically impossible for pretty much anybody to play them other than as part of some gestalt pattern (a run, turn, tremolo, trill or the like). Do they even occur on, say, wind instruments? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Pious Jews have a category of 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |questions that can harmlessly be Palo Alto, CA 94304 |allowed to go without an answer |until the Messiah comes. I suspect kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |that this is one of them. (650)857-7572 | Joseph C. Fineman http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > Especially in alla breve, eh? ;-) > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Do they even occur on, say, wind instruments? Every time I think something is impossible (especially in music), I see someone do it. Liszt and Paganini were said to have performed feats that would actually make members of the audience faint. As you have alluded to, the actual speed of the notes is dependent on their value *and* the tempo. Chopin wrote pieces that are marked "presto", yet the notes are mere quarter and half notes (e.g., his Governess Scherzo). I suppose the fastest thing you ever see in piano is a glissando, though it has its own symbol, not 1/128th notes. Unfortunately, not only is a piano glissando not a true glissando, it's not even chromatic! It's always diatonic and in the key of C (and I suppose A-minor for sticklers). I have also seen Liberace play a black-note glissando...ouch! Don Kansas City >> Do they even occur on, say, wind instruments? > >Every time I think something is impossible (especially in music), I see >someone do it. Liszt and Paganini were said to have performed feats that >would actually make members of the audience faint. The fastest music I have ever heard played (discounting piano glissandos) was on the recorder. Katy > I suppose the fastest thing you ever see in piano is a glissando, though it > has its own symbol, not 1/128th notes. Unfortunately, not only is a piano > glissando not a true glissando, it's not even chromatic! It's always > diatonic and in the key of C (and I suppose A-minor for sticklers). I might even stickle that it's D-dorian. SignatureMichael West Melbourne, Australia >Liszt and Paganini were said to have performed feats that >would actually make members of the audience faint. Personally, I think they should have kept their relationship private. SignaturePhil C. > > I don't think that I have ever heard "hemi" as a stand alone word but > > if I did then I would expect ['hEmi]. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > reintroduced to appeal to middle-aged American men who remember when saying > that your car "had a hemi" was considered impressive. Is this a reversion to older technology? I had assumed that they were making them all along, but the marketing department only recently latched onto it. In any case I am amused at how they carefully don't actually say what a hemi is, merely that they have it and, we are assured, it is a Very Good Thing for any Manly Man. Richard R. Hershberger > Is this a reversion to older technology? I had assumed that they were > making them all along, but the marketing department only recently > latched onto it. In any case I am amused at how they carefully don't > actually say what a hemi is, merely that they have it and, we are > assured, it is a Very Good Thing for any Manly Man. The theory, I believe, is that the less sure you are what it is, the more you'll be afraid to admit this ignorance, the more you'll be willing to pay to get one, and the more you'll brag about it to your friends (who also won't know what it is, but will be afraid to ask, lest they reveal their own ignorance). Personally, I have no clue what it means other than that it probably means that some component is hemispherical rather than some other shape. I also have no idea under what conditions this would be a desirable or undesirable feature. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |This case--and I must be careful 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |not to fall into Spooner's trap Palo Alto, CA 94304 |here--concerns a group of warring |bankers. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Personally, I have no clue what [hemi] means other than that it probably > means that some component is hemispherical rather than some other > shape. The cylinder head, innit? > I also have no idea under what conditions this would be a > desirable or undesirable feature. Search me. (Better yet, search Google, and behold: there's a pretty clear explanation here: http://auto.howstuffworks.com/hemi2.htm ) SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. [snip] > Is this a reversion to older technology? I had assumed that they were > making them all along, but the marketing department only recently [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Richard R. Hershberger Yes, it is a retro, Manly Man design aimed squarely at gearheads and wannabe gearheads. Mopar in particular did a lot of work with hemispherical combustion chambers, and the Mopar 426-cid (7.0-liter for obligate-metric readers) Hemi is a classic "muscle car" engine. Its biggest advantage is that combustion chamber surface area (thus heat lost on the power stroke) is minimized for a given chamber volume. It didn't burn very cleanly, though, and was exterminated by air pollution considerations. Nowadays hemis are generally surpassed by 4-valve-per-cylinder designs, but Mopar has gone far to clean up the pollution problem with its new 2-plug per cylinder 5.7-liter. SignatureChris Green At 12:43:42 on Wed, 14 Jul 2004, Christopher Green <cj.green@worldnet.att.net> wrote in <c31fa7b1.0407141143.f325700@posting.google.com>: >Yes, it is a retro, Manly Man design aimed squarely at gearheads and >wannabe gearheads. Mopar in particular did a lot of work with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >by 4-valve-per-cylinder designs, but Mopar has gone far to clean up >the pollution problem with its new 2-plug per cylinder 5.7-liter. Yes. Now, considering where we are, can you say that again in English, please? SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 12:43:42 on Wed, 14 Jul 2004, Christopher Green > <cj.green@worldnet.att.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Now, considering where we are, can you say that again in English, > please? Mopar is the Chrysler Motor Corp motor parts division. Muscle cars were a type of American cars in the late 60's and 70's that had big powerful engines and were sold to kids so they could drag race on the highways , some muscle car types would be the Pontiac GTO, the Chevy Chevell SS, Plymouth Road Runner{the unofficial Massachusetts state bird} and the Oldsmobile 442, cars designed to decisively exceed the speed limit . What a sound they made too , none of the sports car whine but a good earth shakin V8 rumble., Hemis didn't meet air quality standards and almost died out , Mopar figured out how to get them to run clean and now they are back .Hemis make good horsepower and lots of low end torque excellent for quick acceleration or towing trailers. At 20:22:04 on Wed, 14 Jul 2004, raymond o'hara <reoh@comcast.net> wrote in <MBgJc.74342$JR4.38630@attbi_s54>: >> Now, considering where we are, can you say that again in English, >> please? >Mopar is the Chrysler Motor Corp motor parts division. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >horsepower and lots of low end torque excellent for quick acceleration or >towing trailers. Thanks! That makes a good deal of sense, whereas the first version meant absolutely nothing to me despite my reading it through three times. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >> >Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >> >displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >that tows a semi-trailer, which many people would call a >truck, is a tractor.) Here it's called a "mechanical hore", or "horse for short. >If I were forced to refer formally to our equivalent of the >articulated lorry, all I could think of is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >big rigs, 18-wheelers, or semis? Do they call them >something else? Do they call the tow vehicle a tractor? What do you call the really big ones - 26-wheeelers, 32 wheelers, etc? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk [...] > >Do the British lately ever call their articulated lorries > >big rigs, 18-wheelers, or semis? Do they call them > >something else? Do they call the tow vehicle a tractor? > What do you call the really big ones - 26-wheeelers, > 32 wheelers, etc? I guess I haven't paid enough attention. I don't remember noticing any really big ones that I would expect to have more than eighteen wheels. Since you say there are such things, I'll take your word for it. Actually, about the only time the subject comes up is when we're on the highway. I think we nearly always just say "trucks". ("Notice how the trucks seem to come in bunches? I think they call that convoying, and they do it to help foil highjackers.") If we want to refer clearly to a vehicle that's a truck but not a big rig, we need to find a way to qualify it somehow. >>>Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >>>displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > big rigs, 18-wheelers, or semis? Do they call them > something else? Do they call the tow vehicle a tractor? 'Prime mover'. SignatureRob Bannister At 08:12:49 on Sun, 11 Jul 2004, Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote in <ccq0jq$1td$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au>: >> If I were forced to refer formally to our equivalent of the >> articulated lorry, all I could think of is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >'Prime mover'. The lorry is God? SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) In alt.english.usage on Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:44:13 GMT Bob Cunningham <exw6sxq@earthlink.net> posted: >> >Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >> >displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >or "big rig". "Semi-trailer" isn't the term, because that's >just the trailer that the tractor tows, A semi-trailer truck is the tractor and the trailer. >but still the >combination of the tractor and the semi-trailer is commonly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >If I were forced to refer formally to our equivalent of the >articulated lorry, all I could think of is We don't have articulated things here**. We do have two trailers in a row pulled at the same time. Maybe unsafe but the government ended its prohibition of them a few years ago. I would like to see what the accident record is. >"tractor-trailer". What term am I overlooking? What I described is called a double. >Do the British lately ever call their articulated lorries >big rigs, 18-wheelers, or semis? Do they call them >something else? Do they call the tow vehicle a tractor? **I was at Steam Town in Wilkes-Barre, Penna, a few weeks ago and I went to look at the articulated steam engine, but it wasn't articulated. It was 5 or 6 o'clock by then, and we were tired and I didn't look further for it, or the other one. But we did used to have articulated steam engines. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > We don't have articulated things here**. The Chicago Transit Authority used to have articulated busses. In alt.english.usage on Sun, 11 Jul 2004 04:26:56 GMT "Michael West" <mbwest@bigpond.com> posted: >> We don't have articulated things here**. > >The Chicago Transit Authority used to have articulated busses. No kidding! Cool. Yeah, when I read my post just now, it occurred to me that I made too strong a statement. I'm not everywhere all the time. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years >In alt.english.usage on Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:44:13 GMT Bob Cunningham ><exw6sxq@earthlink.net> posted: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >its prohibition of them a few years ago. I would like to see what the >accident record is. All 18-wheelers are articulated. That just means that there is a tractor and a trailer, and that the two parts are not permanently joined. They are connected by that disk thing that acts as a trailer hitch. The rig articulates at that joint. Take a standard 18-wheeler and plop it down in the UK and it would be an articulated lorry. >>"tractor-trailer". What term am I overlooking? > >What I described is called a double. That's two trailers. UPS uses them quite a bit. "Tony Cooper"> >>"tractor-trailer". What term am I overlooking? > >What I described is called a double. > > That's two trailers. UPS uses them quite a bit. In the U.S. they are called tandem trailers. > "Tony Cooper"> >>"tractor-trailer". What term am I overlooking? > > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > In the U.S. they are called tandem trailers. Tandems in my neck of the woods refers to the semi: A tractor and a trailer. A tractor with two trailers is a double-bottom(ed) rig. We don't see triple-bottomed rigs because they are not allowed in Wisconsin (as far as I know). ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.usage.english.] >>We don't have articulated things here**. We do have two >>trailers in a row pulled at the same time. Maybe unsafe but the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > permanently joined. They are connected by that disk thing that > acts as a trailer hitch. The rig articulates at that joint. Is not being permanently joined a necessary condition? Seems to me like having a pivot point is the thing. SignatureTed Heise <theo@heise.nu> Bloomington, IN, USA In alt.english.usage on Sun, 11 Jul 2004 08:14:08 -0400 Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> posted: >>In alt.english.usage on Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:44:13 GMT Bob Cunningham >><exw6sxq@earthlink.net> posted: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >Take a standard 18-wheeler and plop it down in the UK and it would be >an articulated lorry. OK, thanks, I didn't understand that. >>>"tractor-trailer". What term am I overlooking? >> >>What I described is called a double. > >That's two trailers. Yeah, that's what I said. > UPS uses them quite a bit. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > >Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) > >displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? > <snip> > > Lorry: truck While both words are used in the UK, I'd have thought that "lorry" was still sugnificantly more common. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Old grammarians never die - they simple parse away On 9 Jul, in article <2ad9e934.0407090112.36402974@posting.google.com> > Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) > displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to > questionable items? > > Accumulator: car battery Hmm; an accumulator was never a car battery. It was a lead-acid secondary cell (or collection thereof, in a battery) for providing low tension current for the filaments of valves in early radios. I have a copy of "Motor Car Electrical Systems" published in the mid-1950s, which makes consistent mention of "battery". (However, I have a feeling that some motorcycles may have used a single-cell accumulator.) > Billion: originally 'large' (10^12), now 'small' (10^9) Why can't all nations (particularly that curious subset of their inhabitants known as "journalists") refer to, e.g. gigapounds or teradollars? (Come to that, a strict interpretation of "50m dollars" implies five cents; but journalists are too ignorant to understand that.) > Fount: as typeface, now usually 'font' The late PGS who was once a prolific poster to uk.telecom always used to uphold this usage. As too, IIRC, did Prof Peter Felgate of Reading University. > Gangway: as a passage between seats in a theatre etc., now > largely displaced by 'aisle' Still in use, SFAIK. > Quitted: past of 'quit' is now usually 'quit' Please provide contextual examples. I cannot recall ever having heard "quitted". (Not that "quit" is exactly common in BrEnglish, at least, not before the appearance of that option on the File menu of an application. Except, of course, in the expression "double or quits".) > Sparking plug: spark plug Are you sure of this one? ISTR Terry Wogan making fun of the lyrics of "Matchstick Men and Matchstick Cats and Dogs" (by Brian & Michael, 1978) in which he [deliberately?] misheard "Children at the corner of the street in their sparking clogs" as "sparking plugs". I was first taught about car [automobile] engines by my grandfather, ca.1953 or so, and he definitely only called them "spark plugs"; however... > Wireless: radio ...he (and my grandmother) always "switched on the wireless" and found my adoption of this term "radio" alien. (Said grandfather also involved me in a "project" of building a two-valve radio using components from his den in the garden, which dated back to the 1920s. We had a hell of a job finding anyone who could recharge our accumulator; the HT batteries were much easier. I doubt that one could find a 90Vdc battery nowadays!) Signaturefix (vb.): 1. to paper over, obscure, hide from public view; 2. to work around, in a way that produces unintended consequences that are worse than the original problem. Usage: "Windows ME fixes many of the shortcomings of Windows 98 SE". In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:29:09 +0100 (BST) bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) posted: >> Fount: as typeface, now usually 'font' Microsoft considers the same typeface, but in different sizes, to be different fonts. Prior to that I had the impression that font was equivalent to typeface, and the same font could come in many sizes. Was I ever right about this? I took print shop in junior high for 6 weeks, but it's hard to remember everything he said. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years > In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:29:09 +0100 (BST) > bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) posted: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Microsoft considers the same typeface, but in different sizes, to be > different fonts. Where do they do that? The Microsoft manual of style prescribes using "font" for the typeface design, and "font size" for the size. In every Microsoft gui I'm familiar with, font name and font size are two different things. > Prior to that I had the impression that font was > equivalent to typeface, and the same font could come in many sizes. > Was I ever right about this? In the days of metal type a "font" of type was of a certain size. For example, Gill Sans 10pt would be kept in one case, and Gill Sans 12pt another. SignatureMichael West Melbourne, Australia > In the days of metal type a "font" of type was of a certain size. > > For example, Gill Sans 10pt would be kept in one case, and Gill Sans > 12pt another. And of course if you go far enough back in time (before Gill Sans or anything sans was thought of), each font would be kept in two cases: an upper case and a lower case. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. In alt.english.usage on Fri, 09 Jul 2004 23:29:09 +0100 (BST) bhk@dsl.co.uk (Brian {Hamilton Kelly}) posted: >...he (and my grandmother) always "switched on the wireless" and found my >adoption of this term "radio" alien. (Said grandfather also involved me >in a "project" of building a two-valve radio using components from his The word valve is probably safe from the American "tube" because there aren't so many of them anymore. >den in the garden, which dated back to the 1920s. We had a hell of a job >finding anyone who could recharge our accumulator; the HT batteries were >much easier. I doubt that one could find a 90Vdc battery nowadays!) My father bought an "emergency" radio in the 50's, before transistors, that used tubes with 1 and 2 volt filaments. It could be plugged into the wall and it warmed up very quickly. In the mid 60's I looked into buying the two batteries for it. Available from a catalogue company, which also had its only store at its warehouse in Chicago. One was cheap enough, but the 45 volt battery was about 50 dollars. In 1967! I couldn't believe they could have something so expensive, and I gave up the plan. s/ meirman If you are emailing me please say if you are posting the same response. Born west of Pittsburgh Pa. 10 years Indianapolis, 7 years Chicago, 6 years Brooklyn NY 12 years Baltimore 20 years >> Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >> displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to >> questionable items? [...] >> Quitted: past of 'quit' is now usually 'quit' > >Please provide contextual examples. I cannot recall ever having heard >"quitted". (Not that "quit" is exactly common in BrEnglish, at least, >not before the appearance of that option on the File menu of an >application. Except, of course, in the expression "double or quits".) This has been jangling around that which passes for a brain since the weekend, and a brief bookcase detour now shows with certitude Jane Austen's numerous use in at least three novels: Pride and Prejudice, Ch.32: "How very suddenly you all quitted Netherfield last November"; in Persuasion in Ch.11: "Anne thought she left great happiness behind her when they quitted the house" and Sense and Sensibility Ch.1: "she would have quitted the house for ever". I'll confess to using it in business for effect, sometimes to initial stares of incomprehension prior to enlightenment. Signaturepaul (C) © 2004 is mine > Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) > displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? 'Film' is becoming rare, being replaced by 'Movie'. SignatureDave Clarke I heard two in the last few days: "A code based on a tic-tac-toe board," instead of a noughts-and-crosses board. This was on a Channel 4 documentary about Diana Dors and may have been for sale later in the USA. "Let's play tag." This was on The Shiny Show on CBeebies (BBC1). What do we call it in the UK? Is it He or Had, or what? Alan SignatureI know this is asking a lot but would everyone who reads this please reply, so that Jodie can get her bike? At 12:49:52 on Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Alan OBrien <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in <QBRHc.21665$Cr5.4476@fe2.news.blueyonder.co.uk>: >"Let's play tag." This was on The Shiny Show on CBeebies (BBC1). What do we >call it in the UK? Is it He or Had, or what? As a child in Edinburgh, I always knew it as "Tig", but was aware that some others called it "It". SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 12:49:52 on Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Alan OBrien > <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > As a child in Edinburgh, I always knew it as "Tig", but was aware that > some others called it "It". Where I rew up (in Derbyshire in the 1950s) we called it "Tick". Fran > > At 12:49:52 on Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Alan OBrien > > <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Where I rew up (in Derbyshire in the 1950s) we called it "Tick". Stevie Smith called it "tig-a-tag" (" 'Great Unaffected Vampires and the Moon' "). I don't know to what extent metrical considerations affected her choice, though. CB >> At 12:49:52 on Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Alan OBrien >> <alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Where I rew up (in Derbyshire in the 1950s) we called it "Tick". (Grew or threw?) Same for me - Salop. SignatureRay >>>At 12:49:52 on Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Alan OBrien >>><alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > (Grew or threw?) Same for me - Salop. I meant the first, but I've done the second a time or two. Fran > At 12:49:52 on Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Alan OBrien ><alaneobrienSPAM@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > As a child in Edinburgh, I always knew it as "Tig" In Chicago kids call it [tI@g] "teeeag". Not too different, perhaps. >Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to >questionable items? > >Accumulator: car battery >Sparking plug: spark plug Continuing to tease out the automotive appellations: Scuttle: floorboards Light: window 4 light: coupe De-mister: defroster Rear light heater: rear window defroster Squab: seat cushion Wing: fender Fender: bumper Are bonnet, boot and hood still used instead of hood, trunk lid and convertible top? And I know that "petrol" is still right-pondian for "gasoline". I still treasure some of the phrases from my old MG maintenance manuals. e.g. "liberally anoint the piston with oil and offer it up to the bore..." and "undo the rear seat squab catch clip..." On 10 Jul 2004, John Ings wrote >> Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been >> (mostly) displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Continuing to tease out the automotive appellations: -snip- > De-mister: defroster > Wing: fender I'm not aware of either of these substitutions being widespread. > Fender: bumper Not certain, but I don't think this is widespread, either. > Are bonnet, boot and hood still used instead of > hood, trunk lid and convertible top? I think all of these survive intact. SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to harvey.van) >> De-mister: defroster >> Wing: fender [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Not certain, but I don't think this is widespread, either. I was taking my cue from British car owner's manuals, but perhaps these have been "translated" before North American publication? John Ings wrote: >>> De-mister: defroster >>> Wing: fender [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I was taking my cue from British car owner's manuals, but perhaps > these have been "translated" before North American publication? This has come up here before. Often. AmE 'fender' is not the same item as BrE 'bumper'. AmE fender is the wing which covers the wheel. BrE bumper is the strip that runs across the front and the back of a car roughly at the level of the axle. And I believe AmE uses the same term in the same way. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >This has come up here before. Often. AmE 'fender' is not the same item >as BrE 'bumper'. AmE fender is the wing which covers the wheel. BrE >bumper is the strip that runs across the front and the back of a car >roughly at the level of the axle. And I believe AmE uses the same term >in the same way. Something which has vanished in recent models. I think the current generation of bumperless wonders look horribly ugly, and are expensive to repair. And back in the good old days when cars were cars, "wings" used to be "mudguards". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >Something which has vanished in recent models. Vanished, but still present under all that expensive plastic. > I think the current generation >of bumperless wonders look horribly ugly, and are expensive to repair. But are mandated by legislation which sets fuel efficiency standards. At 07:08:39 on Sat, 10 Jul 2004, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in <pusve0p402969u41s6qsi1o8366ovs6o4r@4ax.com>: >De-mister: defroster Two different things in the UK; a demister uses warm air on the front windscreen, while a defroster uses heated wires embedded in the rear windscreen. (If the front windscreen is covered with frost one really should clear it long before driving off and switching on gadgets.) >Squab: seat cushion Squab is an ancient and honourable usage, transferred to cars from the cushions found in carriages. >Are bonnet, boot and hood still used instead of >hood, trunk lid and convertible top? Definitely yes to bonnet and boot. My social circle does not include a sufficient number of people owning convertibles for me to reliably pronounce on the third, although I suspect that "top" is in common usage. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > Two different things in the UK; a demister uses warm air on the front > windscreen, while a defroster uses heated wires embedded in the rear > windscreen. (If the front windscreen is covered with frost one really > should clear it long before driving off and switching on gadgets.) What do people in Britain call screen doors on their houses? You know, the ones made out of a very fine mesh to keep bugs out but let some air in. Brian > What do people in Britain call screen doors on their houses? You know, the > ones made out of a very fine mesh to keep bugs out but let some air in. I've never been in an English house that had a screen door. I suggested to my in-laws that they might put one in (after my mother-in-law had complained about the flies), and she thought it was a stupid idea. Fran > What do people in Britain call screen doors on their houses? You > know, the ones made out of a very fine mesh to keep bugs out but let > some air in. Absent. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/zodiac/9sag-0.htm Sagittarius (November 23rd - December 21st) Images, Associations, Qualities, Careers, Health At 22:34:39 on Sat, 10 Jul 2004, Brian Smith <dcg_brian@hotmail.com> wrote in <3a_Hc.65595$WB5.11227@pd7tw2no>: >What do people in Britain call screen doors on their houses? You know, the >ones made out of a very fine mesh to keep bugs out but let some air in. We don't have them. US door and window fixings seem to come automatically with a facility for screens. Ours don't. To add screens - especially ones which open when required (particularly useful in the case of a door) would cost a great deal because they would have to be custom-made and installed. And, basically, our weather just isn't hot enough to warrant it. By the time it's dark outside, and insects might be attracted indoors by the lights, we've long ago closed the windows in order not to freeze to death. This basically applies to around 50 weeks out of 52. In three weeks in New Mexico I never quite got used to the idea of screens. Go to bedroom. Switch on light. Think "Oh, I'd better close that window or the bugs will flock in". Remember screens. Relax. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > We don't have them. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > we've long ago closed the windows in order not to freeze to death. This > basically applies to around 50 weeks out of 52. I live in Calgary, AB, Canada so the weather can't be a significant enough reason for not having screen doors or screens on the windows. There are clearly enough warm/hot days here where people feel they are justified. Having some fresh air come into the house is also nice. As for the cost being prohibitive, I don't think that would be an issue if everyone had one because of mass production, etc. When new houses are built in Britain do they come with screen doors and screens on the windows? Brian > > We don't have them. > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Brian Do they have the mosquito problems in England that we in North America have? It gets very warm here and one needs to leave the windows open at night, the mosquitos would feast if there were no screens. The is quite a climate difference between Europe and N.A., take Boston Ma. here I live, we're the same latitude as Lisbon, the Riviera and Venice, when was the last time any of those places got two feet of snow yet we still hit 90 degrees in the summer. If you ever come to New England,spring or fall are your best bets for nice weather , summer is hot and humid and winter cold and damp. Euros that come here in the summer are usually shocked by how hot it is and also by the violence of our thunderstorms. >>> We don't have them. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Do they have the mosquito problems in England that we in North > America have? I don't see anyone responding so I'll have a go (though far from expert). The short answer is no. I'm very twitchy about small things that fly and if mosquitoes were common enough to worry about, I'd worry and find state of the art repellants / destroyers / whatever. I think the usual term here is 'gnat' and I understand they are a serious problem in parts of Scotland, as is the mosquito's cousin the midge. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > I don't see anyone responding so I'll have a go (though far from > expert). The short answer is no. I'm very twitchy about small things [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > serious problem in parts of Scotland, as is the mosquito's cousin the > midge. I'm a little confused here. Are you saying people in Britain refer to skeeters as gnats? A gnat is a small fly that bites. At least I'm rather sure that's we are referring to in North America. Also, given that Britain gets a lot of rain (or is that a myth?), I'm surprised that there are not more skeeters as they love the water for breeding purposes. Maybe you guys have very effective spraying programs...then again, after reading about the proposed animal protection bill that is to protect insects and bugs, I somehow doubt it. Brian >>I don't see anyone responding so I'll have a go (though far from >>expert). The short answer is no. I'm very twitchy about small things [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > proposed animal protection bill that is to protect insects and bugs, I > somehow doubt it. I just read about that in this morning's paper. Is it really true that is now illegal to kill snails and slugs in Britain? Or do you simply have to use a humane method? SignatureRob Bannister > I just read about that in this morning's paper. Is it really true that > is now illegal to kill snails and slugs in Britain? Or do you simply > have to use a humane method? When I read about that in the paper I thought to myself the British must have solved all of their big social problems. Either that or some bureaucrats have way too much time on their hands. And the proposed penalties are amazingly harsh. In Canada you could murder someone and probably not get a plenty that severe. ;-) Do they have private prisons in Britain? If so, I think I might inquire about obtaining some contracts considering at least half of Britain will end up in prison on slug murder charges. Brian >>I don't see anyone responding so I'll have a go (though far from >>expert). The short answer is no. I'm very twitchy about small things [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > gets a lot of rain (or is that a myth?), I'm surprised that there are not > more skeeters as they love the water for breeding purposes. I understand the British climate is on average too cool for mosquito breeding. But they say that with global warming the mosquito breeding zone in Europe is moving gradually northwards and that malaria could become an endemic problem north of the Alps within the next half century. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > I understand the British climate is on average too cool for mosquito > breeding. But they say that with global warming the mosquito breeding > zone in Europe is moving gradually northwards and that malaria could > become an endemic problem north of the Alps within the next half > century. One of the trivial facts I remember from my teen years is that there are 29 species of mosquito native to Britain. However, I think that figure is currently increasing because of GW. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0y14-0.htm What's the difference between a Leeds barmaid and a Tetley Horse? None: they both pull an awful lot of pints! >>I understand the British climate is on average too cool for mosquito >>breeding. But they say that with global warming the mosquito breeding [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > are 29 species of mosquito native to Britain. However, I think that > figure is currently increasing because of GW. While living in Britain I never had any problems with mosquitos, unlike here in Germany, where I acquired scars from allergic reactions when I first got bitten. But since I lived in London whose atmosphere is probably toxic to most insects except cockroaches ;-), my view may a bit biased. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >>>I don't see anyone responding so I'll have a go (though far from >>>expert). The short answer is no. I'm very twitchy about small things [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >zone in Europe is moving gradually northwards and that malaria could >become an endemic problem north of the Alps within the next half century. Malaria (ague) used to be endemic in the Fens and Romney Marshes, though not as severe as the tropical variety. (IIRC anti-malarial drugs were still distributed in Romney Marshes post 1945). It seems to have died out because of better drainage. Partly because of the ague problem, the Fens became the opium capital of Britain into the C20th - white opium poppies can still be found growing wild. To keep me at the cutting edge of fashion, Mrs C. buys all my clothes from Help the Agued. At least, I think that's what it's called. SignaturePhil C. >To keep me at the cutting edge of fashion, Mrs C. buys all my clothes >from Help the Agued. At least, I think that's what it's called. *All* your clothes? I don't think I'd care for pre-owned unmentionables. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >>To keep me at the cutting edge of fashion, Mrs C. buys all my clothes >>from Help the Agued. At least, I think that's what it's called. > >*All* your clothes? I don't think I'd care for pre-owned unmentionables. Sometimes, in melancholic moments, I'm moved to ponder whether my clothes have been removed from a corpse... or perhaps I just need to change my deodorant. Mrs C. assures me that Help the Aged still exists, BTW. It seems a rather quaint name for a charity in these image-conscious days. SignaturePhil C. >>>To keep me at the cutting edge of fashion, Mrs C. buys all my clothes >>>from Help the Agued. At least, I think that's what it's called. [snip] > Mrs C. assures me that Help the Aged still exists, BTW. It seems a Oh, *aged*. I thought it was just people suffering from ague. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If to "man" a phone implies handing 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |it over to a person of the male Palo Alto, CA 94304 |gender, then to "monitor" it |suggests handing it over to a kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |lizard. (650)857-7572 | Rohan Oberoi http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>To keep me at the cutting edge of fashion, Mrs C. buys all my clothes >>>from Help the Agued. At least, I think that's what it's called. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Mrs C. assures me that Help the Aged still exists, BTW. It seems a >rather quaint name for a charity in these image-conscious days. It does indeed still exist, and does house to house collections in my area from time to time. According to the newspapers this week, baby boomers are refusing to grow old, and are spending their money on doing all of the things that they wanted to do when they were in their teens, but couldn't afford to. Maybe the concept 'aged' will die out with that generation, which seems determined to die with its boots on. (Boots by courtesy of Help the Aged, of course.) Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >>>>To keep me at the cutting edge of fashion, Mrs C. buys all my clothes >>>>from Help the Agued. At least, I think that's what it's called. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >which seems determined to die with its boots on. (Boots by courtesy of Help >the Aged, of course.) Even the Distressed Gentlefolks Aid Association has now changed its name. Pity, really. I rather fancied being a distressed gentlefolk. SignaturePhil C. >>> To keep me at the cutting edge of fashion, Mrs C. buys all my >>> clothes from Help the Agued. At least, I think that's what it's [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Mrs C. assures me that Help the Aged still exists, BTW. It seems a > rather quaint name for a charity in these image-conscious days. http://www.helptheaged.org.uk/default.htm http://www.helptheaged.ca/ Does exactly what it says on the tin. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >>> To keep me at the cutting edge of fashion, Mrs C. buys all my > >>> clothes from Help the Agued. At least, I think that's what it's [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Does exactly what it says on the tin. Here in the US you can drop off old clothes at a Goodwill box, Goodwill Industries being a non-profit charitable organization. In the last few years, however, something else has appeared on the scene: A clothes drop-off box that, you are informed if you read the text on the box, belongs to a for-profit corporation. SignatureRaymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com In uk.culture.language.english Raymond S. Wise <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote: > Here in the US you can drop off old clothes at a Goodwill box, Goodwill > Industries being a non-profit charitable organization. In the last few > years, however, something else has appeared on the scene: A clothes drop-off > box that, you are informed if you read the text on the box, belongs to a > for-profit corporation. Similar in Britain. Most old clothes that are collected by charities are sold in bulk to dealers who export them to poor countries where they are in turn parcelled out and sold to smaller operators who sell them on the streets. Only the first sale involves raising money for charity. The charities have high street shops in Britain which sell old clothes, but only a small portion of the clothes donated reach these rather than the bulk sales operators. Since this business of collecting old clotehs and selling them on to exporters is a profitable one, commercial operators have got into it, I assume by law they have to declare they are not charities, but they seem to operate in a way as similar as possible to the charities so that people donating old clothes don't realise. There have been suggestions that this business is not particularly beneficient to the poor countries which receive the clothes since the effect is to out-compete with indigenous clothes manufacturers. The appearance of charity shops in a British high street is generally a mark of a high street in trouble, probably being out-competed by a nearby shopping mall or by a large shopping centre which all but those who are unable to travel far would prefer. Generally a shop is let out on a short term lease to a charity only when it has no tbeen possible to find anyone else to take it on. Matthew Huntbach >The appearance of charity shops in a British high street is generally a mark >of a high street in trouble, probably being out-competed by a nearby >shopping mall or by a large shopping centre which all but those who are >unable to travel far would prefer. Generally a shop is let out on a short >term lease to a charity only when it has no tbeen possible to find anyone >else to take it on. Not quite true, in my experience. There are well-established charity shops on the high streets of some very up-market towns of my acquaintance. Depending on where you live and your social circle, buying your clothes in charity shops (and being clever enough to dress well with the results) now carries considerable cachet. The shops do very well as a result. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >The appearance of charity shops in a British high street is generally a mark >of a high street in trouble, probably being out-competed by a nearby >shopping mall or by a large shopping centre which all but those who are >unable to travel far would prefer. Generally a shop is let out on a short >term lease to a charity only when it has no tbeen possible to find anyone >else to take it on. A small-time property developer told me recently that he actually favours renting to charity shops because they're reliable. In my area the charity shops have been in the same places for years while many commercial operations have come and gone. Some charities have now professionalised the whole operation - employing full-time shop managers and selling a wider range of goods. They seem to be a permanent feature of the high street. Perhaps in expensive city centres, though, the short-term lease still rules. SignaturePhil C. > In uk.culture.language.english Raymond S. Wise <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > operate in a way as similar as possible to the charities so that people > donating old clothes don't realise. I wonder. One of the main shops here in Australia is St Vincent de Paul's. I know a lot of very well-off people - well, women actually - who buy clothes there, and yet Vincent de P would definitely be a charity. SignatureRob Bannister In uk.culture.language.english Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au> wrote: > Matthew Huntbach wrote: >> In uk.culture.language.english Raymond S. Wise <mplsrayNOSPAM@gbronline.com> wrote: >>>Here in the US you can drop off old clothes at a Goodwill box, Goodwill >>>Industries being a non-profit charitable organization. In the last few >>>years, however, something else has appeared on the scene: A clothes drop-off >>>box that, you are informed if you read the text on the box, belongs to a >>>for-profit corporation. >> Since this business of collecting old clotehs and selling them on >> to exporters is a profitable one, commercial operators have got into it, I >> assume by law they have to declare they are not charities, but they seem to >> operate in a way as similar as possible to the charities so that people >> donating old clothes don't realise. > I wonder. One of the main shops here in Australia is St Vincent de > Paul's. I know a lot of very well-off people - well, women actually - > who buy clothes there, and yet Vincent de P would definitely be a charity. Presumably the SVP shops use any money raised beyond the overheads in running the thing for charity, while those engaged in collecting clothes who declare they belong to a "for-profit corporation" put it in their bank accounts to use for themselves. Matthew Huntbach "Einde O'Callaghan" <> > I understand the British climate is on average too cool for mosquito > breeding. But they say that with global warming the mosquito breeding > zone in Europe is moving gradually northwards and that malaria could > become an endemic problem north of the Alps within the next half century. > > Regards, Einde O'Callaghan The further north one goes in North Anerican the worse the mosquitos get. Taken toether with black flys{may flies or gnats} they make being in the woods unbearable in the summer. >> I understand the British climate is on average too cool for mosquito >> breeding. But they say that with global warming the mosquito breeding [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > get. Taken toether with black flys{may flies or gnats} they make > being in the woods unbearable in the summer. I know that Fairbanks, Alaska, is overrun with mosquitoes in the summer. My brother lived there for a year, or so. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > >> I understand the British climate is on average too cool for mosquito > >> breeding. But they say that with global warming the mosquito breeding [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I know that Fairbanks, Alaska, is overrun with mosquitoes in the summer. My > brother lived there for a year, or so. That is getting pretty close to the land of the midnight sun. Not a very long summer, but plenty of time to hatch out many, many bugs. Nice for all the birds that head north. > "Skitt" <skitt99@comcast.net> wrote in message >> I know that Fairbanks, Alaska, is overrun with mosquitoes in the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Not a very long summer, but plenty of time to hatch out many, many > bugs. Nice for all the birds that head north. When I went to Alaska, I was told that the mosquito *was* the state bird. I was also told that they came in two varieties: those that flew right through screen doors and those that stopped and opened them first. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There are two types of people - 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |those who are one of the two types Palo Alto, CA 94304 |of people, and those who are not. | Leigh Blue Caldwell kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > I know that Fairbanks, Alaska, is overrun with mosquitoes in the summer. My > brother lived there for a year, or so. My understanding is that horseflies are the worst. I've never been far enough north to see them for myself but I've heard some horror stories about those blood suckers. Brian >> I know that Fairbanks, Alaska, is overrun with mosquitoes in the summer. My >> brother lived there for a year, or so. > > My understanding is that horseflies are the worst. I've never been far > enough north to see them for myself but I've heard some horror stories about > those blood suckers. The bites of horseflies or deerflys (I think they are the same species) can be very painful. They leave red bumps that can last for days. SignatureMichael West Melbourne, Australia >>>I know that Fairbanks, Alaska, is overrun with mosquitoes in the summer. My >>>brother lived there for a year, or so. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > are the same species) can be very painful. They > leave red bumps that can last for days. I remember horseflies from England, but are our Australian March flies more or less the same? Despite their name, they seem to be able to bite at any time of year. SignatureRob Bannister > > The bites of horseflies or deerflys (I think they > > are the same species) can be very painful. They [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > more or less the same? Despite their name, they seem to be able to bite > at any time of year. Here's a test. Google "march fly" horsefly For me the first hit is March Fly, Horse Fly - Family Tabanidae March Fly, Horse Fly - Family Tabanidae. This ... humans. March Fly larvae of most species live in fresh water, damp soil or rotting plants. ... www.geocities.com/brisbane_flies/Tabanidae.htm - 14k - Cached - Similar pages Which seems to suggest they are the same thing. But if I put "march fly" +horsefly, the first hit is WetCanvas! - warming one's wings ... eek: :eek: Is it a horsefly? ... The second looks like what we call a Marsh Fly (some call it a March Fly but they are round for longer than that) those rotten ... www.wetcanvas.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-190745 - 5k - Cached - Similar pages This relates back to what I said before about google searches from certain IP addresses. Anywhere I've tried it in Australia, frequently a single compound word like "horsefly" will match pages that only contain "horse fly" as two words and not actually the single word "horsefly". Add the plus symbol, and the problem is solved. No-one that I know of in other countries has the same problem. It's irrelevant which google server you use, too. >>>> I know that Fairbanks, Alaska, is overrun with mosquitoes in the summer. My >>>> brother lived there for a year, or so. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > more or less the same? Despite their name, they seem to be able to bite > at any time of year. The Aussie March flies are annoying, but their bites are fairly trivial compared to horsefly/deerfly bites. My impression is that March flies are smaller, too, but I was quite small when bitten multiple times by a horsefly (I was paralysed with fright), and it seemed almost as big as a horse at the time. SignatureMichael West Melbourne, Australia > The bites of horseflies or deerflys (I think they > are the same species) can be very painful. They > leave red bumps that can last for days. To me a horsefly and a deerfly are quite different: the former is very large -- bigger than a bluebottle -- fairly uniform in colour, and often noticeably hairy; the latter is about the size of an ordinary housefly, and has a pinstriped thorax and a broad dark band on each wing. Both take quite a chunk out of you when they feed -- unlike mosquitoes, they lap up blood from an open gash in the skin rather than sucking it out of a small puncture -- but I think a deerfly's bite is the worse of the two. SignatureOdysseus >> The bites of horseflies or deerflys (I think they >> are the same species) can be very painful. They [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > rather than sucking it out of a small puncture -- but I think a > deerfly's bite is the worse of the two. I don't pretend to know, but I found this: Horseflies are part of the Tabanid family, part of approximately 3,000 species of biting flies which also include deerflies, black flies, and no-see-ums. Only female tabanids bite because they require a blood meal to develop their eggs. After their steak-knife mouthparts gash the skin, the pooling blood is soaked up by a sponge-like segment of the lower lip called a labellum. http://www.bitingflies.com/newsleaf.html No-see-ums are tiny, and can get through fly-screens, so clearly these are all different species. I found this too: Deer flies (Chrysops spp., 33 species) range from 1/4 to ½ inch long, black to brown in coloration, often with yellowish markings. They characteristically have clear wings with black or brown patterns, making wings appear to be banded. Horse flies (Tabanus, 52 species, and other genera) range from 3/8 to just over 1 inch long and vary in coloration by species. Some are all black while many have colored patterns on their abdomens and wings. Anyway, I'll take mosquitos any day over a horsefly. Even the mosquitoes I met in Vietnam, which only travelled in squadrons, so that if you got one bite, you got 20 -- never less. Automatic weapons fire was allowed, but ineffective. SignatureMichael West Melbourne, Australia >> The bites of horseflies or deerflys (I think they >> are the same species) can be very painful. They >> leave red bumps that can last for days. > > To me a horsefly and a deerfly are quite different: And I been done seen about everything when I see a elephant fly SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >> The bites of horseflies or deerflys (I think they > >> are the same species) can be very painful. They [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > And I been done seen about everything when I see a elephant fly You know how to make one, don't you? You starts with a zipper t-h-i-s long. >>>> The bites of horseflies or deerflys (I think they >>>> are the same species) can be very painful. They [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > You know how to make one, don't you? > You starts with a zipper t-h-i-s long. I thought you just had to put your lips together Steve... SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > > I know that Fairbanks, Alaska, is overrun with mosquitoes in the summer. > My [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Brian Horseflies pinch when they bite but they are large,few in number and easy to shoo away. Blackflies and mosquitos attack in unending swarms. At my summer home in Gilmanton New Hampshire{the setting for the novel Peyton Place}we learned to stay away in blackfly season and to just suffer the skeeters, after the first 30 or so bites you became oblivious to them and scratched unconciously. >> > I know that Fairbanks, Alaska, is overrun with mosquitoes in the summer. >> My [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >first 30 or so bites you became oblivious to them and scratched >unconciously. Both deerflies and mosquitos are common in Florida. I'm very allergic to insect bites of any kind, and get golf ball-like swellings from either. The deerfly is the worst, since the bite seems to invariably infect. Deerflies bite (only the female) in the late afternoon, and mosquitos come out mostly at twilight and later. The standard repellents for mosquitos don't repel deerflies. Deerflies don't "buzz" like mosquitos, so they are silent attackers. > Deerflies bite (only the female) in the late afternoon, and mosquitos > come out mostly at twilight and later. The standard repellents for > mosquitos don't repel deerflies. Deerflies don't "buzz" like > mosquitos, so they are silent attackers. They're damn light on their feet, too; unless you happen to see one land, you'll never notice it until it bites. SignatureOdysseus > > Deerflies bite (only the female) in the late afternoon, and mosquitos > > come out mostly at twilight and later. The standard repellents for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > They're damn light on their feet, too; unless you happen to see one > land, you'll never notice it until it bites. Same for the British horsefly or cleg, found mainly in Scotland: if you see it, you can splat it, but if you don't see it you'll discover its presence only by the severe sting. Scotland -- and indeed Ireland, now I come to think of it -- are problematic tourist destinations for this reason. Some of us get immune, while others suffer incurably: Scotland is a sort of nursery slope to the Arctic, and if you can't handle it you should seriously consider a career in the Sahara. Mike. >>> Deerflies bite (only the female) in the late afternoon, and >>> mosquitos come out mostly at twilight and later. The standard [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Scotland is a sort of nursery slope to the Arctic, and if you can't > handle it you should seriously consider a career in the Sahara. I see that it was just as well that I didn't pursue the opportunity I was offered to spend six to nine months in Coulport, back in the very late '70s, providing support and instructions for the maintenance and support of one of Lockheed products. I lost my chance to find Nessie, though. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>>> Deerflies bite (only the female) in the late afternoon, and >>>> mosquitos come out mostly at twilight and later. The standard [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I lost my chance to find Nessie, though. You're as likely to find Nessie in California as you are in Scotland SignatureJohn 'heard loud noise. looked up' Dean Oxford >> I see that it was just as well that I didn't pursue the opportunity I >> was offered to spend six to nine months in Coulport, back in the very [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > You're as likely to find Nessie in California as you are in Scotland Oh, I've given up drinking anyway. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > I understand the British climate is on average too cool for mosquito > breeding. But they say that with global warming the mosquito breeding > zone in Europe is moving gradually northwards and that malaria could > become an endemic problem north of the Alps within the next half > century. There have been mosquitoes in Latvia as far back as I can remember. The place where they were(Jurmala) is as far north as Aberdeen, Scotland. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > > I understand the British climate is on average too cool for mosquito > > breeding. But they say that with global warming the mosquito breeding [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > There have been mosquitoes in Latvia as far back as I can remember. The > place where they were(Jurmala) is as far north as Aberdeen, Scotland. I think it has more to do with air quality than temperature. Since the city of Ottawa stopped using pesticides a few years ago, mosquitoes, gnats and blackflies have started to make their presence felt again. CB >> Two different things in the UK; a demister uses warm air on the >> front windscreen, while a defroster uses heated wires embedded in [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > know, the ones made out of a very fine mesh to keep bugs out but let > some air in. Such things are very rare in the UK. -- Mike Stevens narowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Million-to-one chances turn up nine times out of ten. (Terry Pratchett) > > Two different things in the UK; a demister uses warm air on the front > > windscreen, while a defroster uses heated wires embedded in the rear [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > What do people in Britain call screen doors on their houses? You know, the > ones made out of a very fine mesh to keep bugs out but let some air in. The previous comments are correct - we don't have them on our house. But we do have them on our caravans (=US trailers, but let's not get into that again). Modern vans (the caravanners normal term for a caravan) have them fitted to windows and doors, but on the inside so that they can be manipulated by the inhabitants. Caravans are designed to be dragged to the Mediterranean each year, where it is both hot and insect infested. On caravans, they are called "fly screens". BTW, I am even now sitting on the terrace of my French house, looking at the Mediterranean. Blue, it is. For reasons I don't understand, there are no mosquitoes here. SignatureDavid ==== SW France On Sunday, in article <MPG.1b5b6066ee6ea290989708@news.individual.net> > BTW, I am even now sitting on the terrace of my French house, looking at > the Mediterranean. Blue, it is. For reasons I don't understand, there > are no mosquitoes here. Perhaps they benefitted from the Rockefeller Institute's campaign against the mosquito in the Mediterranean? When I first toured in Sardinia, in the mid-1980s, it was pointed out to me that the dates (variously covering the years 1944--48) that were stencilled onto the houses recorded when DDT was sprayed into each corner of every room in every house on the island. [The really fascinating aspect is that the inhabitants redecorate so infrequently that these stencilled markings were still visible some forty years later.] This wiped out the mosquitoes, and led to the end of malarial outbreaks on the island. I noticed that similar markings are to be seen in some parts of Cyprus, most notably in the necropolis known as The Tombs of the Kings. It's really scary that, all these fifty-plus years onward, one can still detect the distinctive smell of DDT on entering some of those tombs. SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi- national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet software and decent hardware support." >Definitely yes to bonnet and boot. My social circle does not include a >sufficient number of people owning convertibles for me to reliably >pronounce on the third, although I suspect that "top" is in common >usage. My car has a soft-top and a separate hard-top (both manual), and friends who have newer convertibles have electric hoods / soft-tops. These are complete hoods. A fixed roof with a top part that slides open is called a sunshine roof. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >>Definitely yes to bonnet and boot. My social circle does not include a >>sufficient number of people owning convertibles for me to reliably [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >complete hoods. A fixed roof with a top part that slides open is called a >sunshine roof. Both my Jaguar XK-120s were "drop head" convertibles. They had the baby-buggy (pram?) style top that could be brought up into the closed position rapidly. The roadster style tops were a nightmare to take up and put down, as bad as erecting a camping tent with little metal bows and braces! And you don't know what cold is until you've driven an MG TD with side curtains in Cold Lake Alberta in January! Ah the halcyon days of a mis-spent youth! John Ings wrote: >>> Definitely yes to bonnet and boot. My social circle does not >>> include a sufficient number of people owning convertibles for me to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Ah the halcyon days of a mis-spent youth! My '53 MGTD had no side curtains and no top. I had rescued the poor thing from going to the junkyard (I paid $125 for it in 1964). I had to replace a couple of broken pistons, the seats, and the windshield. I put it back together, and it ran fine. Of course, I didn't live in Cold Lake Alberta in January. I did get wet in the rain a few times, though. My first wife drove it on October 9th, 1964 -- later that day she bore our son. I'm sure that the ride helped things along. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >My '53 MGTD had no side curtains and no top. I had rescued the poor thing >from going to the junkyard (I paid $125 for it in 1964). Have you any idea what that little classic is worth today? In ANY condition? Jeez, if I just had the XK-E I sold for $2500 in 1970... John Ings wrote: >> My '53 MGTD had no side curtains and no top. I had rescued the poor >> thing from going to the junkyard (I paid $125 for it in 1964). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jeez, if I just had the XK-E I sold for $2500 in 1970... Hah, I also had a 1959 Austin-Healey 100-6 (with the large ports). Very much like this one: http://www.geocities.com/opus731/59healey.jpg I sold it in 1969 in Washington state. I forget what I got for it, but it was a price for a typical 10-year-old car. In cas anyone is interested, the kind of cars I have owned are listed at http://www.geocities.com/opus731/cars.html There was even a '51 Crosley among them. Oh, and a '73 Saab Sonett III. (The BMW picture is of my car, the other pictures are similar only.) SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > In cas anyone is interested, the kind of cars I have owned are listed at > http://www.geocities.com/opus731/cars.html My god, you've owned a lot of cars. Some very spiffy ones, too! SignatureSML http://pirate-women.com >> In cas anyone is interested, the kind of cars I have owned are >> listed at http://www.geocities.com/opus731/cars.html > > My god, you've owned a lot of cars. Yeah. Most of them earlier ones were bought used, so I always upgraded. > Some very spiffy ones, too! If only I knew then what I know now. The lack of means to keep several of them was a factor, of course. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>>Definitely yes to bonnet and boot. My social circle does not include a >>>sufficient number of people owning convertibles for me to reliably [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >and braces! And you don't know what cold is until you've driven an MG >TD with side curtains in Cold Lake Alberta in January! The soft-top on my Mercedes SL folds down behind the seats when not in use, and takes about two minutes to erect. During the winter it's left down and the hard-top fitted, effectively turning the car into a saloon. The hard-top takes three of us to lift into place. I seem to recall that the XKs were fitted with tonneau covers, too. >Ah the halcyon days of a mis-spent youth! Those would be nice to relive if only we had the weather this year. My central heating, permanently set to come on in winter conditions, came on automatically on Midsummer day evening, and it's rained sometime every day for the past few weeks, so the car roof has seldom been down. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >My >central heating, permanently set to come on in winter conditions, came on >automatically on Midsummer day evening, and it's rained sometime every day >for the past few weeks, so the car roof has seldom been down. Has the Gulf Stream been betraying the Sceptered Isle lately? It has always amazed me to note that the British Isles are at roughly the same latitude as Labrador, yet the one winter I spent in Lincoln shire, I saw not a single snowflake. | >My | >central heating, permanently set to come on in winter conditions, came on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | the same latitude as Labrador, yet the one winter I spent in Lincoln | shire, I saw not a single snowflake. Not Yet!!!!!!! There is a well respected scientific theory and some evidence, that the North Atlantic Drift (Gulf Stream) is switching off at the moment. The Holywood film got most things which may happen wrong. Winds are *westerly*, so the climate in the UK may become like the *west* coast of Canada, not the *east* coast. My house, in Yorkshire is insulated to hell and back, just in case. SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Killfile and Anti Troll FAQs at http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/killfile. >My house, in Yorkshire is >insulated to hell and back, just in case. The Romans introduced central heating to Britain two millennia ago but when they left, the British forgot, and haven't remembered since! Well. that was the old joke when I was in England briefly in the 1950s, but I gather things have changed? | >My house, in Yorkshire is | >insulated to hell and back, just in case. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | Well. that was the old joke when I was in England briefly in the | 1950s, but I gather things have changed? Yes! SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Don't eat cousin Banana she shares 50% of your genes. Do not kill cousin House Mouse, it is not his fault he is doubly incontinent. Flies need your help. Killing cousin salmonella with bleach is murder, he is as much alive as you are. ;-) At 07:40:57 on Sun, 11 Jul 2004, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in <94k2f0lsangp5g030fqe3d3s9cjunfbdgq@4ax.com>: >The Romans introduced central heating to Britain two millennia ago >but when they left, the British forgot, and haven't remembered since! > >Well. that was the old joke when I was in England briefly in the >1950s, but I gather things have changed? Very much so - all new houses, and most of the old ones, now have central heating. (Does wonders for cat fleas - they don't die in the winter, so have to be dealt with all year round. Fitted carpets suit them down to the ground, too.) We have, for some unaccountable reason, been much slower to adopt fly screens, air conditioning etc. And in the days before central heating, few British homes had a refrigerator or a freezer. There was a thing called a meat-safe: a wall-cupboard in the kitchen, with a north-facing glassless window to the great outdoors, covered with - wait for it! - a fixed fly screen. Food kept for ages in there. Even now, I suspect that most houses are, by inertia, built so that one wall of the kitchen faces north. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > We have, for some unaccountable reason, been much slower to adopt fly > screens, air conditioning etc. And in the days before central > heating, few British homes had a refrigerator or a freezer. There > was a thing called a meat-safe: a wall-cupboard in the kitchen, with > a north-facing glassless window to the great outdoors, covered with - > wait for it! - a fixed fly screen. Food kept for ages in there. There was central heating in our apartment building in Latvia, and the "meat safes" faced east. That didn't meake much of a difference, as the climate in Latvia is colder than in England. This was in the '30s. and '40s. They may have refrigerators now. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > Even now, I suspect that most houses are, by inertia, built so that one > wall of the kitchen faces north. I went and had a look at my kitchen, and sure enough, one of its four walls *does* face north! SignatureAlec McKenzie mckenzie@despammed.com | > Even now, I suspect that most houses are, by inertia, built so that one | > wall of the kitchen faces north. | | I went and had a look at my kitchen, and sure enough, one of its four | walls *does* face north! Ours are South, east and west. Dave F On 11 Jul 2004, Alec McKenzie wrote >> Even now, I suspect that most houses are, by inertia, built so >> that one wall of the kitchen faces north. > > I went and had a look at my kitchen, and sure enough, one of its > four walls *does* face north! And so does mine -- built c.1895 -- but that wall's shared with next door... From a topographical/architectural history stance, I'd say that for at least 200 years in England, house orientation has depended almost entirely on property subdivision -- which side of the street you're on, and which party walls are shared -- rather than environmental considerations. SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to harvey.van) >We have, for some unaccountable reason, been much slower to adopt >fly screens, air conditioning etc. And in the days before central heating, >few British homes had a refrigerator or a freezer. There was a thing >called a meat-safe: a wall-cupboard in the kitchen, with a north-facing >glassless window to the great outdoors, covered with - wait for it! - a >fixed fly screen. Food kept for ages in there. We still have a meat-safe in our larder, though we haven't keot any meat in it since we acquired a refrigerator and then a freezer. Our house was built in the early 1950s. SignatureJohn Hall "If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end in doubts; but if he will be content to begin with doubts, he shall end in certainties." Francis Bacon (1561-1626) >At 07:40:57 on Sun, 11 Jul 2004, John Ings <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in ><94k2f0lsangp5g030fqe3d3s9cjunfbdgq@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Even now, I suspect that most houses are, by inertia, built so that one >wall of the kitchen faces north. So that the front of the house faces south! Mike SignatureM.J.Powell M. J. Powell wibbled >>Even now, I suspect that most houses are, by inertia, built so >>that one wall of the kitchen faces north. > > So that the front of the house faces south! Our kitchen is at the front of our house. Both face east. We don't have an exposed north face at all, there being at least five households in that direction before you reach exposed wall. There are at least eight roads running parallel to ours with houses/flats in the same plane. My previous kitchen was also at the front, but faced north. My parents' kitchen is at the back and faces west. My inlaws' is the same. Jac >M. J. Powell wibbled > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >that direction before you reach exposed wall. There are at least eight >roads running parallel to ours with houses/flats in the same plane. I've only ever seen one other house with the kitchen at the front, and that's on this little estate. Seems odd to approach the front door and see the kitchen. All the other houses of that type are conventional. It does mean that the living room looks out over fields though. Mike SignatureM.J.Powell > And in the days before central heating, > few British homes had a refrigerator or a freezer. There was a thing > called a meat-safe: a wall-cupboard in the kitchen, with a north-facing > glassless window to the great outdoors, covered with - wait for it! - a > fixed fly screen. Food kept for ages in there. I had one of those in an apartment here in the USA (although the vent and screen faced west). I thought of it as the "pie safe," perhaps because I was a vegetarian at the time. SignatureSML http://pirate-women.com >>And in the days before central heating, >>few British homes had a refrigerator or a freezer. There was a thing [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and screen faced west). I thought of it as the "pie safe," perhaps > because I was a vegetarian at the time. So you didn't keep your meat pies in it. SignatureRob Bannister In uk.culture.language.english Molly Mockford <nospamnobody@mollymockford.me.uk> wrote: > We have, for some unaccountable reason, been much slower to adopt fly > screens, air conditioning etc. I am convinced that when I was young it never got hot enough in Britain for air conditioning to be a necessity. Only in the past few years has it got so hot in summer that life here can be seriously unpleasant without it (ok, so we've had several week's cool wet summer here this year, but we had that hot period a few weeks ago). Matthew Huntbach John Ings wrote: >> My house, in Yorkshire is >> insulated to hell and back, just in case. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Well. that was the old joke when I was in England briefly in the > 1950s, but I gather things have changed? I remember one of the American soldiers in the film 'Yanks' standing in typical British sleet and saying something on the lines of 'This will be a great little country when they get a roof on it' SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >I remember one of the American soldiers in the film 'Yanks' standing in >typical British sleet and saying something on the lines of 'This will be >a great little country when they get a roof on it' The one I recall was the American standing in the rain in wartime London, staring morosely at the barrage balloons and muttering "why don't they just cut the cables and let the damn place sink!" >>My >>central heating, permanently set to come on in winter conditions, came on >>automatically on Midsummer day evening, and it's rained sometime every day >>for the past few weeks, so the car roof has seldom been down. > >Has the Gulf Stream been betraying the Sceptered Isle lately? It seems so. My central heating is on at the moment, and we had the worst June for quite a while. July is not so hot (!) either. The rain is keeping my pond filled up but the wind keeps blowing the water plants in baskets around its edge into the deeper water in the middle. >It has always amazed me to note that the British Isles are at roughly >the same latitude as Labrador, yet the one winter I spent in Lincoln >shire, I saw not a single snowflake. I can't remember seeing much snow during the years I spent in London, but only 20 miles north, out in the country, we've had enough snow to cause chaos each of the three years I've been here. Chaos comes with more than about an inch of snow, because we're just not geared up for it. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >My central heating is on at the moment, and we had the worst >June for quite a while. Actually, we didn't. The second half of the month was certainly cool and unsettled, but the first half had been notably warm and dry, so that - taking the month as a whole - in most places it was warmer and I think drier than average. > July is not so hot (!) either. So far it's certainly been unusually cool and wet. If it carries on like this, it could be the coolest July since 1988. But it would be dangerous to conclude anything from one poor month or even from one poor summer. SignatureJohn Hall "Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself." Doris Lessing >>>My >>>central heating, permanently set to come on in winter conditions, came on [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >chaos each of the three years I've been here. Chaos comes with more than >about an inch of snow, because we're just not geared up for it. When I were a lad in s. Wales in the 40's and 50's we had at least a foot of snow every year, but from about 30 years ago we've had only an inch or so. Mike SignatureM.J.Powell > >>>My > >>>central heating, permanently set to come on in winter conditions, came on [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Mike When I was a boy we had snows up to my knees; now they are just above my ankles. Larry >When I was a boy we had snows up to my knees; now they are just above my >ankles. I think I'm getting shorter with age, but not that much. >>>> My >>>> central heating, permanently set to come on in winter conditions, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > foot of snow every year, but from about 30 years ago we've had only an > inch or so. It's not just the snow that happened to. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>>> My >>>>> central heating, permanently set to come on in winter conditions, [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> >It's not just the snow that happened to. Speak for yourself... Mike SignatureM.J.Powell In uk.culture.language.english Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote: >>It has always amazed me to note that the British Isles are at roughly >>the same latitude as Labrador, yet the one winter I spent in Lincoln >>shire, I saw not a single snowflake. > I can't remember seeing much snow during the years I spent in London, but > only 20 miles north, out in the country, we've had enough snow to cause > chaos each of the three years I've been here. Chaos comes with more than > about an inch of snow, because we're just not geared up for it. Snow is now rare in southern England. In the past, even in the south you could reliably expect several snowy days in southern England, but nowadays there might be one or two a year where there'd be full snow cover, quite often none. This means it isn't worth local authorities, railways etc investing in snow clearance equipment, hence ths situation that when a very light fall of snow does occur it causes complete chaos. Matthew Huntbach > In uk.culture.language.english Dr Robin Bignall <docrobin@ntlworld.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > investing in snow clearance equipment, hence ths situation that when a very > light fall of snow does occur it causes complete chaos. I only recall heavy snow in the middle 40s and the early 60s, but I do remember weather conditions bringing the railways to a standstill every winter and the railway authorities claiming it was unusual. SignatureRob Bannister >I only recall heavy snow in the middle 40s and the early 60s, but I do >remember weather conditions bringing the railways to a standstill every >winter and the railway authorities claiming it was unusual. I recall news reports of trains being snowbound in Kent (only an hour from London), and Devon, IIRC. I think that was the 60's. They were dropping supplies from helicopters. Even here in the Great White North (western section) it doesn't get that bad. And harking back to recent postings about North America's largest shopping mall, the West Edmonton Mall was hit by tornado & heavy rain (150mm?) this past weekend, but the statistic that grabbed me was: they evacuated 24,000 shoppers and about 30,000 staff. SignatureJohn W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> Cochrane, Alberta, Canada. "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age" > And harking back to recent postings about North America's largest > shopping mall, the West Edmonton Mall was hit by tornado & heavy rain > (150mm?) this past weekend, but the statistic that grabbed me was: > they evacuated 24,000 shoppers and about 30,000 staff. I don't think it was a tornado, but extremely heavy rain and hail -- I heard there was 100 mm of precipitation in just the most intense period, only about a quarter of an hour in duration. Snowplows were called out to clear an accumulation of hailstones from the nearby freeway. SignatureOdysseus >but the statistic that grabbed me was: >they evacuated 24,000 shoppers and about 30,000 staff. At first sight that seems way out of proportion. On the other hand if we ask how many shoppers pass through the place at a weekend, and what quantity of goods is shifted, the ratio of shoppers to staff might look much more reasonable. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) In uk.culture.language.english Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote: >>but the statistic that grabbed me was: >>they evacuated 24,000 shoppers and about 30,000 staff. > At first sight that seems way out of proportion. > On the other hand if we ask how many shoppers pass through the place at a > weekend, and what quantity of goods is shifted, the ratio of shoppers to > staff might look much more reasonable. If the weather was very bad, it may be assumed that few shoppers would venture out since they wouldn't have to, but the staff would be there since they have to be as it's their job. Matthew Huntbach >... >If the weather was very bad, it may be assumed that few shoppers would >venture out since they wouldn't have to, but the staff would be there since >they have to be as it's their job... That's what I assumed too. NB I may have got the shoppers/staff numbers reversed. SignatureJohn W Hall <wweexxsseessssaa@telus.net> Cochrane, Alberta, Canada. "Helping People Prosper in the Information Age" >> but the statistic that grabbed me was: >> they evacuated 24,000 shoppers and about 30,000 staff. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > weekend, and what quantity of goods is shifted, the ratio of shoppers to > staff might look much more reasonable. The figure for the number of shoppers seems reasonable - West Edmonton Mall has 20,000 parking places. It has "800 stores and services, more than 110 eating establishments and seven Theme Park Attractions", so the number of staff will be high - but not that high. SignatureJohn Briggs > It seems so. My central heating is on at the moment, and we had the worst > June for quite a while. July is not so hot (!) either. The rain is keeping > my pond filled up but the wind keeps blowing the water plants in baskets > around its edge into the deeper water in the middle. "In July, the sun is hot -- 'Is it shining?' 'No, it's not!'" -- Flanders & Swann SignatureOdysseus > The soft-top on my Mercedes SL folds down behind the seats when not > in use, and takes about two minutes to erect. During the winter it's > left down and the hard-top fitted, effectively turning the car into a > saloon. The hard-top takes three of us to lift into place. Ah, you didn't buy the special winch for it, then. > I seem to recall that the XKs were fitted with tonneau covers, too. As was my MGA. -- Skitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ >> The soft-top on my Mercedes SL folds down behind the seats when not >> in use, and takes about two minutes to erect. During the winter it's >> left down and the hard-top fitted, effectively turning the car into a >> saloon. The hard-top takes three of us to lift into place. > >Ah, you didn't buy the special winch for it, then. No, because I have a British Standard Garage, too small to get anything bigger than a Mini into it and still be able to open the car doors wide enough to get out. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England > ...I have a British Standard Garage, too small to get > anything bigger than a Mini into it and still be able to open the car > doors wide enough to get out. Ah, you must have the Large Standard Garage. SignatureRay On 11 Jul 2004, mUs1Ka wrote >> ...I have a British Standard Garage, too small to get >> anything bigger than a Mini into it and still be able to open the >> car doors wide enough to get out. > > Ah, you must have the Large Standard Garage. The best examples example of "non-garage-syndrome" I've seen was a couple of years ago, when our local newspaper reported on a new house where a car could be driven in, but the only way to get out was through the sun-roof. The developer was asked for a response, and said something along the lines of "these are meant as household storage areas; they aren't intended for cars". SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to harvey.van) >On 11 Jul 2004, mUs1Ka wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >lines of "these are meant as household storage areas; they aren't >intended for cars". That is no joke. I could show you here a street of town houses that was built within the past three years, each with the standard-sized garage built into the ground floor. Every house has its car(s) parked on its drive because the garages are obviously too narrow to get a modern car into them. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England > >The best examples example of "non-garage-syndrome" I've seen was a > >couple of years ago, when our local newspaper reported on a new house [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > built into the ground floor. Every house has its car(s) parked on its drive > because the garages are obviously too narrow to get a modern car into them. On the other hand, we live in a quite affluent area of detached houses, where the garages are generously sized. Nevertheless it seems ours is one of the very few actually used to keep a car in. SignatureAlec McKenzie mckenzie@despammed.com On 12 Jul 2004, Alec McKenzie wrote >>> The best examples example of "non-garage-syndrome" I've seen was >>> a couple of years ago, when our local newspaper reported on a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > houses, where the garages are generously sized. Nevertheless it > seems ours is one of the very few actually used to keep a car in. It's nice to have the ability to do so, though! (I'm the first to admit that I tended not to use our garage for the car until I installed an automatic door opener. A wonderful invention.) SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to harvey.van) On 12 Jul 2004, Dr Robin Bignall wrote >> The best examples example of "non-garage-syndrome" I've seen was >> a couple of years ago, when our local newspaper reported on a new [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > its car(s) parked on its drive because the garages are obviously > too narrow to get a modern car into them. Oh, I knew it wasn't a joke: the developer was entirely serious. I think things started to slip quite seriously when the Parker-Morris standards were abolished in 1980; very few houses now reach those standards for floor space and storage. (I'm aware that this is thread-drifting: as far as I'm aware, P-M didn't set standards for garages.) SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to harvey.van) > On 12 Jul 2004, Dr Robin Bignall wrote >>That is no joke. I could show you here a street of town houses >>that was built within the past three years, each with the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > (I'm aware that this is thread-drifting: as far as I'm aware, P-M > didn't set standards for garages.) Parker-Morris didn't set standards for private housing either. Fran On 12 Jul 2004, Frances Kemmish wrote >> On 12 Jul 2004, Dr Robin Bignall wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Parker-Morris didn't set standards for private housing either. That's very true, but it did tend to raise the bar. The standards weren't mandatory for private housing, but the NHBRC took Parker-Morris as a benchmark against which "good practice" could be judged. (Which is why the mass housebuilding industry wanted to see them abolished.) SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to harvey.van) On Monday, in article <m2t4f01n2coiftknld1l34seemr8pvkftt@4ax.com> > That is no joke. I could show you here a street of town houses that was > built within the past three years, each with the standard-sized garage > built into the ground floor. Every house has its car(s) parked on its drive > because the garages are obviously too narrow to get a modern car into them. The architects presumably think that everyone still owns an A35? SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi- national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet software and decent hardware support." > On Monday, in article > <m2t4f01n2coiftknld1l34seemr8pvkftt@4ax.com> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > The architects presumably think that everyone still owns an A35? Or an A30 (the only difference was the size of the rear window and the capacity of the engine :-) ) The problem is that the standard size of garage door (through which a car does not travel with its doors open) is used to define the width of the garage. SignatureJohn Briggs >> On Monday, in article >> <m2t4f01n2coiftknld1l34seemr8pvkftt@4ax.com> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >does not travel with its doors open) is used to define the width of the >garage. That width of garage door does not seem to have changed over the years. If you go back to the days of the A30 or Triumph Herald, you could only fit two adults comfortably in the rear seat, maybe with a small child between them. Most family saloons these days will seat three adults across. I am always struck by how narrow these older cars look when I'm driving behind them. I've seen double garages built with two standard-sized openings separated by about six inches, rather than one wide up-and-over door, so it's still difficult to get cars through the doors, and with two cars inside it's still impossible to open the car doors more than a foot or so. The problem in Britain is the cost of building land, particularly within commuting distance of London. If an architect saves a foot in width on each house in a street of 100 houses, he can squeeze an extra two or three houses in. That's another five to seven hundred thousand pounds of turnover. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >>> On Monday, in article >>> <m2t4f01n2coiftknld1l34seemr8pvkftt@4ax.com> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > houses in. That's another five to seven hundred thousand pounds of > turnover. Don't blame architects - most developers' housing has never seen an architect. It was commented a few years ago (by a planner) that some of the most acceptable housing in Hampshire was from a developer where one of the directors considered that he had a flair for design... SignatureJohn Briggs >That width of garage door does not seem to have changed over the years. If >you go back to the days of the A30 or Triumph Herald, you could only fit [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >it's still difficult to get cars through the doors, and with two cars >inside it's still impossible to open the car doors more than a foot or so. Strangely, the number of persons per car has declined as the width has increased. Perhaps the growing obesity problem is the explanation. SignaturePhil C. >>That width of garage door does not seem to have changed over the years. If >>you go back to the days of the A30 or Triumph Herald, you could only fit [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Strangely, the number of persons per car has declined as the width has >increased. Perhaps the growing obesity problem is the explanation. It's partially due to increasing affluence. Up to about ten years ago, the wife and kids used the family car and the husband commuted to the office by train. Britain, traditionally famous for two-seater sports cars at reasonable prices, had virtually stopped making them for the previous couple of decades, except for the expensive Jags and the like. Then, I started noticing more and more two-seaters, particularly after BMW produced one, and now every third or fourth car is a two-seater with a suit inside. This coincided with the decline in our rail services, which have, for commuters in the London area, become almost insufferable. I think people would rather sit alone in comfort in a traffic jam, listening to music or the news, than be squashed up like sardines on a smelly train. If they have the choice. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >I think people >would rather sit alone in comfort in a traffic jam, listening to music or >the news, than be squashed up like sardines on a smelly train. If they have >the choice. Not everyone likes sitting in a traffic jam listening to music. My son told me about an incident on a main road in Northern Ireland (out in the sticks). Something had caused a stoppage and tailback of traffic. A posh woman took offence to the sound of the radio in the car alongside hers. She imperiously demanded that the driver switch it off or, at least, wind up his window. The driver naturally responded by turning up the volume. A police car approached on the hard shoulder, on its way to sort out the cause of the traffic jam. The woman attracted the attention of the police. One officer got out, walked over to her - "Yes Madam?". "The radio", said the woman, point to the offending car. "Nice tune" quoth the peeler, who then headed back to his car and continued on his way along the hard shoulder. Following this favourable music review, the drivers of other cars nearby pressed buttons, twiddled knobs, wound down windows, and surrounded the woman with the music. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>>That width of garage door does not seem to have changed over the years. If >>>you go back to the days of the A30 or Triumph Herald, you could only fit [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > wife and kids used the family car and the husband commuted to the office by > train. But, prior to that, the man drove the car to work and the stay-at-home wife had to use bus or bike. Nowadays, I see a number of young women driving expensive, 2-seater cars. SignatureRob Bannister >>>>That width of garage door does not seem to have changed over the years. If >>>>you go back to the days of the A30 or Triumph Herald, you could only fit [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >wife had to use bus or bike. Nowadays, I see a number of young women >driving expensive, 2-seater cars. So do I. Does one's heart good, doesn't it! But seriously, the increase in affluence has not been limited to men, although judging from the recent flood of complaints from women against companies in the financial sector, equal pay and status for equal work is something that has still not been achieved. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England On Thursday, in article <cd4lru$18b$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au> > But, prior to that, the man drove the car to work and the stay-at-home > wife had to use bus or bike. Nowadays, I see a number of young women > driving expensive, 2-seater cars. Hmm, in the UK, they're mostly driving completely inappropriate 4x4s, such as Range Rovers, Mitsubishi Shoguns, Toyota LandCruisers, etc. SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi- national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet software and decent hardware support." >On Thursday, in article <cd4lru$18b$1@enyo.uwa.edu.au> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Hmm, in the UK, they're mostly driving completely inappropriate 4x4s, >such as Range Rovers, Mitsubishi Shoguns, Toyota LandCruisers, etc. I suspect they're young mothers on their way to or back from the school run. At my age, mothers with kids almost at university age look like *young* women. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >Up to about ten years ago, the >wife and kids used the family car and the husband commuted to the office by >train. Husband drives to station, with wife in passenger seat. Husband kisses wife goodbye and departs. Wife switches to driver's seat and drives car home. I used to see this a lot, and was amused that it was obviously unthinkable that the wife should drive her husband. SignatureJohn Hall "Home is heaven and orgies are vile, But you *need* an orgy, once in a while." Ogden Nash (1902-1971) At 08:35:32 on Thu, 15 Jul 2004, John Hall <nospam_nov03@jhall.co.uk> wrote in <cpfWIMDEPj9AFwD6@jhall.demon.co.uk>: >Husband drives to station, with wife in passenger seat. Husband kisses >wife goodbye and departs. Wife switches to driver's seat and drives car >home. I used to see this a lot, and was amused that it was obviously >unthinkable that the wife should drive her husband. I used to be one of them, in the early 80s. The great advantage, from my point of view, is that I didn't have to wake up until the station, when I had to take over the car. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >>Up to about ten years ago, the >>wife and kids used the family car and the husband commuted to the office by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > home. I used to see this a lot, and was amused that it was obviously > unthinkable that the wife should drive her husband. More unthinkable was the fact that she was often in her dressing gown with her hair in curlers. SignatureRob Bannister > >Up to about ten years ago, the > >wife and kids used the family car and the husband commuted to the office by [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > home. I used to see this a lot, and was amused that it was obviously > unthinkable that the wife should drive her husband. I used to see that often. I wondered about it, because I would never have considered doing it that way. Bill McCray Lexington, KY, USA Swap first and last parts of username and ISP for address. On 16 Jul 2004, Bill McCray wrote >> Husband drives to station, with wife in passenger seat. Husband >> kisses wife goodbye and departs. Wife switches to driver's seat >> and drives car home. I used to see this a lot, and was amused >> that it was obviously unthinkable that the wife should drive her >> husband. > I used to see that often. I wondered about it, because I would > never have considered doing it that way. Same here. I sometimes still see the switch happen at the other end of the day -- less often these days, but occasionally. SignatureCheers, Harvey Ottawa/Toronto/Edmonton for 30 years; Southern England for the past 21 years. (for e-mail, change harvey to harvey.van) > No, because I have a British Standard Garage, too small to get anything > bigger than a Mini into it and still be able to open the car doors wide > enough to get out. For some reason, this prompts me to have a whinge about the Australian Standard Wardrobe (AmE "clothes closet"), which is too narrow for men's suits or shirts to hang in without being jammed against the back wall and the door when the door is closed. This results in crumpled and sometimes permanently stained clothes. I think they were all designed for children, or those midget foreigners one sometimes sees toddling around railway platforms. SignatureMichael West Melbourne, Australia >> No, because I have a British Standard Garage, too small to get anything >> bigger than a Mini into it and still be able to open the car doors wide [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > midget foreigners one sometimes sees > toddling around railway platforms. To which I would add that using them for children or midgets has disadvantages, too. The walls aren't soundproofed, for one thing. SignatureMichael West Melbourne, Australia > For some reason, this prompts me to have > a whinge about the Australian Standard > Wardrobe (AmE "clothes closet"), which is > too narrow for men's suits or shirts to hang > in without being jammed against the back > wall and the door when the door is closed. I'm just over six feet tall and with a fifty-six inch chest. (Sad to say my waist is not far less.) I don't hang my clothes in closets. :( SignatureMichael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? >>Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >>displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Light: window >4 light: coupe A car light (in BrE) is always one of those electrical thingies that lights up. >De-mister: defroster >Rear light heater: rear window defroster This now tends to be called "heated rear window" or "rear window heater". >Squab: seat cushion >Wing: fender >Fender: bumper The definitions in Cambridge Advanced Learners' Dictionary fit my understanding of the usage in BrE: bumper (CAR PART) a horizontal bar along the lower front and lower back part of a motor vehicle to help protect it if there is an accident wing (PART OF CAR) UK noun (US fender) one of the four parts at the side of a car which go over the wheels (A wing used to be called a mudguard) >Are bonnet, boot and hood still used instead of >hood, trunk lid and convertible top? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >manuals. e.g. "liberally anoint the piston with oil and offer it up to >the bore..." and "undo the rear seat squab catch clip..." "Anoint" is now so dated it would possibly be considered humorous. AFAIK "offer up" is still an accepted engineering term. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>Scuttle: floorboards >>Light: window >>4 light: coupe > > A car light (in BrE) is always one of those electrical thingies that lights > up. There used to be "quarter-lights" which were windows. I don't know when I last saw a car with them. Fran >>>Scuttle: floorboards >>>Light: window [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >There used to be "quarter-lights" which were windows. I don't know when >I last saw a car with them. Yes. I had forgotten those. I had a car with those (Audi 80 - U.S. Audi Fox) until 1987ish. They were fixed quarter-lights. Earlier cars had openable versions which pivoted on a vertical axis. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) >>There used to be "quarter-lights" which were windows. I don't know when >>I last saw a car with them. > > Yes. I had forgotten those. I had a car with those (Audi 80 - U.S. Audi Fox) > until 1987ish. They were fixed quarter-lights. Earlier cars had openable > versions which pivoted on a vertical axis. OK; that's probably the last car I saw that I drove that had them. My husband had an Audi 80 in the mid-1980s before we moved to the USA. Fran >>>Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >>>displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > A car light (in BrE) is always one of those electrical thingies that lights > up. You've forgotten those window which I sorely miss: the quarter-lights. SignatureRob Bannister > Continuing to tease out the automotive appellations: > De-mister: defroster Since when is mist the same as frost? I can't see this being different in Britain than it is in North America. Brian >> Continuing to tease out the automotive appellations: >> De-mister: defroster > >Since when is mist the same as frost? I can't see this being different in >Britain than it is in North America. It took a while for the Brit automobile industry to get smart and take their pre-production models over to Norway for some winter driving before declaring them ready for the North American market. Their early models indeed had 'de-misters' when what was needed were 'de-frosters'! I recall hearing the tale of an Austin-Morris engineering team that was sent over to Canada in the 60s to see what all the Canadian dealers were complaining about. They were met at the airport by a local rep who handed them the keys to a brand new Austin 1300 which had been left parked in the airport parking facility overnight. It was prepared exactly to factory spec. Ever try lifting the piston of an SU carburetor whose damper has SAE 20 oil in it when the temperature is 20 below? Or turning even a 1300cc 4banger over with the ridiculous batteries those things had? John Ings wrote: >>> Continuing to tease out the automotive appellations: >>> De-mister: defroster [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > models indeed had 'de-misters' when what was needed were > 'de-frosters'! Incidentally, I think what you're calling "mist" here would be called "fog" in AmE. On Saturday, in article <pusve0p402969u41s6qsi1o8366ovs6o4r@4ax.com> nodamned@spam.org "John Ings" wrote: > Continuing to tease out the automotive appellations: > > Scuttle: floorboards Huh? IME, the scuttle in a car is that part of the passenger compartment *above* the floorboards, underneath the dashboard. Pre-war cars sometimes had flaps that would open (outwards) in the side of the scuttle, to provide ventilation around the feet. Naturally, in the British climate, these were rarely opened. The floorboards have always been the floorboards (although nowadays more likely just floor, since one needs to go back some way to find a car with actual boards[1]). > Light: window The word "light" still appears in the expression "quarter-light", as others have mentioned. However, I cannot recall the actual windows being called anything else (except if they were the celluloid type of side-curtains found on soft-tops). > 4 light: coupe Never; moreover, we don't have coupes (some manufacturers' models have been designated as coupés, but the name never seems to catch on with the British Public). Neither do we have sedans. > De-mister: defroster > Rear light heater: rear window defroster > Squab: seat cushion > Wing: fender > Fender: bumper Covered by others. YOU seem to have introduced a list of the different appelations in use in right- and left-pondia. The original poster had a list of those words that were supposedly being replaced in right-pondia by their left-pondian equivalents. [1] In the mid-1960s, I was the proud owner of a somewhat derelict 1952 Daimler Conquest; this had actual wooden floorboards. They caught fire once, as I was driving up Countisbury Hill with a holey exhaust. SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi- national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet software and decent hardware support." > The floorboards have always been the floorboards (although nowadays > more likely just floor, since one needs to go back some way to find a > car with actual boards[1]). [...] > [1] In the mid-1960s, I was the proud owner of a somewhat derelict > 1952 Daimler Conquest; this had actual wooden floorboards. They > caught fire once, as I was driving up Countisbury Hill with a holey > exhaust. That brings back memories. Back in 1959, my buddy and I were driving to work in a car with wooden floorboards. I can't remember what kind of car it was (it wasn't one of mine), but the boards caught on fire. We managed to put the fire out, or so we thought, but it had damaged the driver's seat quite badly. Anyway, my buddy wouldn't drive the car as it now was, so we parked it in a gas station, at the side of the property. We then called a friend who took us to work. After work, we returned to claim the car. We were met by a very irate gas station owner -- it appears that the car had caught fire again and had cause quite some concern that the whole place would go up in flames. Oh, well. We took out the driver's seat, put an orange crate in its place, and drove it home, being careful to keep our feet off the pavement (most of the floorboards were gone by now). A few days later my buddy pushed the car off a cliff in the Santa Cruz mountains. The end. (Cheers to you, Warren Buschmann, wherever you are.) SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ > We took out the driver's seat, put an orange crate in its place, and > drove it home, being careful to keep our feet off the pavement (most > of the floorboards were gone by now). Of course, over here you'd get done for driving on the pavement. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/joachim/13-0.htm The lamb's Navy rum hadn't gone down by so much as one eighth of an inch in the last half hour. >Never; moreover, we don't have coupes (some manufacturers' models have >been designated as coupés, but the name never seems to catch on with the >British Public). The British Public that I know use coupe to describe a two-seater which is not a convertible. http://www.automotive.com/jaguar/05/coupe/ for example. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >> Never; moreover, we don't have coupes (some manufacturers' models have >> been designated as coupés, but the name never seems to catch on with the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > for example. I think you've chosen a bad example - Jaguar always did drop-head coupés as well as fixed-head coupés. SignatureJohn Briggs >>> Never; moreover, we don't have coupes (some manufacturers' models have >>> been designated as coupés, but the name never seems to catch on with the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I think you've chosen a bad example - Jaguar always did drop-head coupés as >well as fixed-head coupés. A lot of manufacturers have used the word 'coupe' to describe two-seater (or occasional four-seater) two-door, fixed-head cars with a bit of extra oomph and go-faster stripes. IMO the coupe is a two-seater sports car with a fixed roof. Porsche, BMW, Mercedes and Volvo are among the many manufacturers who've produced true coupes. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >> Continuing to tease out the automotive appellations: >> >> Scuttle: floorboards > >Huh? IME, the scuttle in a car is that part of the passenger compartment >*above* the floorboards, underneath the dashboard. Which, on my MG TD really did rather resemble a coal scuttle, when viewed from the engine side of the firewall. > Pre-war cars >sometimes had flaps that would open (outwards) in the side of the >scuttle, to provide ventilation around the feet. Both my XK-120s did too. >Naturally, in the >British climate, these were rarely opened. They were opened often in my neck of the woods! >The floorboards have always been the floorboards (although nowadays more >likely just floor, since one needs to go back some way to find a car with >actual boards[1]). My MG had plywood floorboards. The body frame was mostly wood too, with sheet metal wrapped around it. DON'T slam that door! The door latch retaining screws were wood screws... >> Light: window > >The word "light" still appears in the expression "quarter-light", as >others have mentioned. However, I cannot recall the actual windows being >called anything else (except if they were the celluloid type of >side-curtains found on soft-tops). I remember being utterly mystified by an item in my MK VII's wiring diagram: "Rear light heater". It took me while to figure out that it was the rear window defroster. >> 4 light: coupe > >Never; Probably a pre WW2 nomenclature. e.g. http://www.minor.org.uk/Details/Cowley_1932.htm >moreover, we don't have coupes Both my XKs were Drop head Coupes. It said so right in the owner's manual. >(some manufacturers' models have >been designated as coupés, but the name never seems to catch on with the >British Public). Neither do we have sedans. Saloons? >> De-mister: defroster >> Rear light heater: rear window defroster [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >YOU seem to have introduced a list of the different appelations in use in >right- and left-pondia. Well whenever I list those right-pondian terms, everybody until now has exclaimed "Oh we don't say that anymore!" > The original poster had a list of those words >that were supposedly being replaced in right-pondia by their left-pondian >equivalents. That's what I presumed had happened. >[1] In the mid-1960s, I was the proud owner of a somewhat derelict 1952 >Daimler Conquest; this had actual wooden floorboards. They caught fire >once, as I was driving up Countisbury Hill with a holey exhaust. I never had a fire, but wood rot was a problem. Now that there is more snow in the winters in Blighty, is road salt a problem? >Now that there is more snow in the winters in Blighty, > is road salt a problem? Much less of a problem than it was three decades ago. I think it was in the 1970s that there was a change in the thickness of the sheet steel used in the construction of cars. The thinner metal rusted through much more quickly than the thicker that was previously used. For a few years car accessory dealers sold a lot of cans of Waxoyl (and similar). This was a solution of wax in paraffin which car owners used for spraying the under surfaces of a car, and injecting into any spaces that water and salt could get into. Car makers then set about making their cars corrosion-proof. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from a.e.u) At 19:56:53 on Wed, 14 Jul 2004, Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in <frvaf0ldqqsjqfbi1qvpos7fbnstg6b7br@4ax.com>: >>Now that there is more snow in the winters in Blighty, In fact, there seems to be considerably less than there used to be. >> is road salt a problem? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >sheet steel used in the construction of cars. The thinner metal rusted >through much more quickly than the thicker that was previously used. And many local authorities tend to spread sand, sometimes mixed with grit, instead of salt. I suppose it's cheaper. It makes a mess of everything, and there's probably just enough salt in the mixture to make sure that it adheres to the underside of cars. It certainly seems to adhere everywhere else. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > And many local authorities tend to spread sand, sometimes mixed > with grit, instead of salt. I suppose it's cheaper. It costs about one-third as much per ton as salt, but about three times as much has to be applied to be effective. Considering that it therefore takes three times the manpower and three times as many trucks, or three times as many trips back to the base to refill, sand can actually cost more to use. Sand is most useful when it's too cold for salt to work. SignatureMichael DeBusk, Co-Conspirator to Make the World a Better Place Did he update http://home.earthlink.net/~debu4335/ yet? >> And many local authorities tend to spread sand, sometimes mixed >> with grit, instead of salt. I suppose it's cheaper. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Sand is most useful when it's too cold for salt to work. During my last trip to France in February, halfway between Calais and Paris on the new A16 autoroute, I ran from bright sunshine into a blizzard that was so heavy that I slowed down to about 20 mph. Within minutes I was overtaken by a gritting tanker lorry which must have been activated almost the minute the snow started (something you'll rarely see in England - it usually takes hours). The lorry was throwing out a fine slurry of salt/sand/water mixture which covered the three lanes completely. It also covered my car, and I had to stop to clean the windscreen. I had read that in freezing conditions salt is ineffective unless it's put down in solution, but this is the first time I've seen it done. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England "John Ings" <nodamned@spam.org> wrote in message news:mgtaf0hragvfb730k8oaq7nk26pjjf4far@4ax.com >>> 4 light: coupe >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> been designated as coupés, but the name never seems to catch on with >> the British Public). Neither do we have sedans. There was, in the 20s and 30s a form of car knows as a "coupe de ville". This had the back seat enclosed in bodywork (possibly a convertible), leaving the chauffeur in front exposed to the elements. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. > Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) > displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to > questionable items? The use of 'Store' in place of 'Shop' also seems to be on the increase. SignatureDave Clarke >Thought I'd start a new thread on Briticisms which have been (mostly) >displaced by Americanisms. Can you think of any more? Or point to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Sparking plug: spark plug >Wireless: radio A musos' one: "tube amp" (was "valve amp"). -- Ross Howard |
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