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Discussion Groups / British English / July 2004Spanish vs Spaniards
Hi, Spanish is my native languague and I'm learning english. I'd like to ask what's the difference in saying: Spanish people, or the Spanish, and saying Spaniards. Thanks,  Signaturechabral >Hi, >Spanish is my native languague and I'm learning english. I'd like to ask >what's the difference in saying: >Spanish people, or >the Spanish, >and saying Spaniards. My impression is that "Spaniard", though still in dictionaries, has become rather quaint these days - rather like Chinaman or Frenchman. I believe I now usually only hear it on football commentaries. We tend to just use the adjective "Spanish" for preference but "the Spanish" and "Spanish people" both sound fine. SignaturePhil C. >My impression is that "Spaniard", though still in dictionaries, has >become rather quaint these days - rather like Chinaman or Frenchman. I don't see anything quaint about "Frenchman". Surely it's still the normal way to refer to a male person from that country? > I >believe I now usually only hear it on football commentaries. We tend >to just use the adjective "Spanish" for preference but "the Spanish" >and "Spanish people" both sound fine. i would say "a Spaniard" in preference to "a man from Spain" or some other such phrase. "A Spanish" sounds wrong to me, even though "a Chinese" is probably now acceptable. SignatureJohn Hall "The covers of this book are too far apart." Ambrose Bierce (1842-1914) >>My impression is that "Spaniard", though still in dictionaries, has >>become rather quaint these days - rather like Chinaman or Frenchman. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >other such phrase. "A Spanish" sounds wrong to me, even though "a >Chinese" is probably now acceptable. To my ear, the quaintness comes when such terms seem to concentrate on the adult male. Although my dictionaries don't restrict the term to adult males, I wouldn't expect to hear a Spanish woman or child described as a Spaniard. The female equivalents of Englishman, Chinaman etc etc either sound clumsy or don't exist. And there simply isn't an equivalent for children - the age when most of us encounter the issue of describing origin/nationality. So we get used to just using the adjectival form - "I'm English/Spanish etc" and restrict the indefinite article to national terms that seem comfortable with it. I doubt I've ever used the word "Spaniard" to describe a Spanish person in normal conversation. Nor has my random sample of one - Mrs C., though Spanish people figure prominently in our lives. FWIW, I wouldn't use the term "Briton" in everyday circumstances, unless insisting hoarsly that Britons Never Never Shall Be Slaves. I'd just say I'm British. SignaturePhil C. >>i would say "a Spaniard" in preference to "a man from Spain" or some >>other such phrase. "A Spanish" sounds wrong to me, even though "a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >adult males, I wouldn't expect to hear a Spanish woman or child >described as a Spaniard. That's interesting, as it hadn't occurred to me that maleness was implicit in the word. I think I would find it quite natural to refer to a woman or a child as a Spaniard. <snip the rest, with which I would agree> SignatureJohn Hall "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." George Bernard Shaw <snip> > To my ear, the quaintness comes when such terms seem to concentrate on > the adult male. Although my dictionaries don't restrict the term to > adult males, I wouldn't expect to hear a Spanish woman or child > described as a Spaniard. The female equivalents of Englishman, > Chinaman etc etc either sound clumsy or don't exist. I've been hearing words like Englishwoman, Irishwoman, Scotswoman, Frenchwoman all my life and they don't sound clumsy or quaint to me. On the other hand I would find Chinaman very old-fashioned with slightly sinister (and racist) overtones reminiscent of old Fu manchu films. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan ><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >the other hand I would find Chinaman very old-fashioned with slightly >sinister (and racist) overtones reminiscent of old Fu manchu films. It's interesting, though (FWIW) that "Englishwoman" gets only a tenth as many Google hits as "Englishman" - and "Irishwoman" a twentieth of those of "Irishman". "Scotswoman" manages a mighty 0.23% of "Scotsman". Even allowing the obvious caveats on such comparisons, they don't seem to be popular terms. SignaturePhil C. >><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > "Scotsman". Even allowing the obvious caveats on such comparisons, > they don't seem to be popular terms. I didn't say they were popular, just that they didn't seem strange. I also have the impression that they are more common in spoken English than in the written form, which would mean the Google statistics weren't particularly relevant. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan At 11:55:06 on Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Phil C. <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in <12anf01dseejas8tr4gntgdn671if1csto@4ax.com>: >It's interesting, though (FWIW) that "Englishwoman" gets only a tenth >as many Google hits as "Englishman" - and "Irishwoman" a twentieth of >those of "Irishman". "Scotswoman" manages a mighty 0.23% of >"Scotsman". Even allowing the obvious caveats on such comparisons, >they don't seem to be popular terms. Don't forget that a huge number of those hits for "Scotsman" will have been referring to the daily newspaper. Besides, the three aren't true parallels; you can refer to a Scot, which you can't do with the English and the Irish. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 11:55:06 on Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Phil C. <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in > <12anf01dseejas8tr4gntgdn671if1csto@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Besides, the three aren't true parallels; you can refer to a Scot, > which you can't do with the English and the Irish. True. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >At 11:55:06 on Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Phil C. <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in ><12anf01dseejas8tr4gntgdn671if1csto@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Don't forget that a huge number of those hits for "Scotsman" will have >been referring to the daily newspaper. I agree - hence the circumspection - but the surprise isn't how many hits there are for Scotsman (1.4 million) but how _very_ few for Scotswoman (3000 odd ). "Scottish woman" gets 5,600. "Scotsmen" gets 34,000 compared to 1000 for "Scotswomen". It's hard to think a formula to compare how often people are simply referred to as "Scottish", "English", "Irish" etc as these terms are not exclusive to people but I suspect it's now the overwhelming norm except for specialised purposes. Similarly, I think that in everyday life people are normally referred to as Danish, Polish, Swedish, Turkish rather than Dane, Pole, Swede, Turk etc. though headline writers seem keen to maintain these terms for brevity and puns. >Besides, the three aren't true parallels; you can refer to a Scot, >which you can't do with the English and the Irish. They weren't really intended to be contrasted with each other - they all seem to me to point in the same direction. "Frenchman" gets half a million but "Frenchwoman" only 50,000. But Google is only Google and we can all choose the conclusions we draw, if any. SignaturePhil C. On Monday, in article <7j9of0drfo478f509khh0h6nhv8ctd8c97@4ax.com> > It's hard to think a formula to compare how often people are simply > referred to as "Scottish", "English", "Irish" etc as these terms are [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Turkish rather than Dane, Pole, Swede, Turk etc. though headline > writers seem keen to maintain these terms for brevity and puns. One change that has annoyed me is that nowadays most people (especially football commentators) refer to "Argentinians" whereas the people there had historically always (in English) been called "Argentines". SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi- national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet software and decent hardware support." On Monday, in article <2m0bh9Fh9dp8U1@uni-berlin.de> einde.ocallaghan@planet-interkom.de "Einde O'Callaghan" wrote: > I've been hearing words like Englishwoman, Irishwoman, Scotswoman, > Frenchwoman all my life and they don't sound clumsy or quaint to me. On > the other hand I would find Chinaman very old-fashioned with slightly > sinister (and racist) overtones reminiscent of old Fu manchu films. "Chinaman" might seem slightly old-fashioned; however, to cricketers, it still has a meaning :-) SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi- national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet software and decent hardware support." At 19:54:28 on Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote in <20040719.1854.56946snz@dsl.co.uk>: >"Chinaman" might seem slightly old-fashioned; however, to cricketers, it >still has a meaning :-) You can't count cricketers. To them, "to google" means something different that it does to the rest of the known universe. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 19:54:28 on Mon, 19 Jul 2004, Brian {Hamilton Kelly} > <bhk@dsl.co.uk> wrote in <20040719.1854.56946snz@dsl.co.uk>: > >"Chinaman" might seem slightly old-fashioned; however, to > >cricketers, it still has a meaning :-) > You can't count cricketers. To them, "to google" means something > different that it does to the rest of the known universe. Of course you can count cricketers; it's footballers (and sheep) you can't count 'cos they're always running around all over the field. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0y11-0.htm Brimham Rocks |
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