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Discussion Groups / British English / September 2004American British pronunciations
I'm no Professor 'Iggens, but I have a lifelong interest in, and sensitivity for local dialect pronunciations. I'm particularly fascinated with the persistence of Elizabethan dialectic pronunciations that have been documented in various backwater areas of the eastern United States. I personally observed this in the 1970s when a local resident on the Eastern Shore of Maryland essayed the following phrase describing a job offer that paid "noine thewsand dawlers". It made an instant believer of me. Anyway, years ago I noted that native residents of the Maryland area around Washington, D.C. would pronounce the "u" in words such as bush as the oo in "whoosh" (the oo drawn out as a long o-o-o). I figured it was some kind of local colonial corruption, until I started hearing British news presenters on BBC doing the same thing with "President Bush" as in "who-o-osh". Can anyone comment on the British origins of this pronunciation? -- John Mazor "The search for wisdom is asymptotic." "Except for Internet newsgroups, where it is divergent..." -- R J Carpenter > I'm no Professor 'Iggens, but I have a lifelong interest in, and > sensitivity for local dialect pronunciations. I'm particularly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the following phrase describing a job offer that paid "noine thewsand > dawlers". It made an instant believer of me. Yes, I've heard the "oi" pronunciation of "i" by characters pretending to be English in US TV shows. It originally took me several episodes to realise that these characters were supposed to be English and that that particular strange accent wasn't just another of the many strange US accents. > Anyway, years ago I noted that native residents of the Maryland area > around Washington, D.C. would pronounce the "u" in words such as bush > as the oo in "whoosh" (the oo drawn out as a long o-o-o). I figured > it was some kind of local colonial corruption, until I started > hearing British news presenters on BBC doing the same thing with > "President Bush" as in "who-o-osh". British news presenters on the Beeb exhibit different accents; many of them aren't even English. > Can anyone comment on the British origins of this pronunciation? Something I've never heard. I have, however, heard "Colin" pronounced as "Cohlin".  Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/2g-0.htm Green Magic Left Nostril of Ishtar Genitals in the Clay of Death >>I'm no Professor 'Iggens, but I have a lifelong interest in, and >>sensitivity for local dialect pronunciations. I'm particularly [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Something I've never heard. I have, however, heard "Colin" pronounced > as "Cohlin". I have never thought about it (the reason for it might be that I'm Swedish) but they are interesting questions and I will certainly listen more carefully in the future when watching Fox News and BBC (which are the only two TV channels my cable company delivers.) However, can the same pattern be seen in TV shows or Drama productions? Here in Sweden they broadcast a lot of both American shows (mainly these louse reality shows) and British productions (most often Mrs Marple-like stories). //Andy <snip> > British news presenters on the Beeb exhibit different accents; many of > them aren't even English. That's a rather sweeping, and possibly quite incorrect, statement to make. And why the distinction between British and English? Signaturewanderer at tesco dot net > <snip> > > British news presenters on the Beeb exhibit different accents; many > > of them aren't even English. > That's a rather sweeping, and possibly quite incorrect, statement to > make. And why the distinction between British and English? How is it sweeping, and how possibly quite incorrect? What distinction? Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/3c-0.htm Cyan Magic Left Eye of Sin Left Foot in the Depth of the Earth > > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > How is it sweeping, and how possibly quite incorrect? I can't think of a single non-British presenter (though there are a few Irish presenters, Terry Wogan springing immediately to mind). > What distinction? Between the Britishness of the presenters and the Englishness of their accents -- the antecedent to "them" in your last statement is unclear, and could refer to the accents or the presenters themselves. Rob Kerr > > > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > How is it sweeping, and how possibly quite incorrect? > I can't think of a single non-British presenter (though there are a > few Irish presenters, Terry Wogan springing immediately to mind). Did I make reference to non-British presenters? I don't think so. > > What distinction? > Between the Britishness of the presenters and the Englishness of > their accents -- the antecedent to "them" in your last statement is > unclear, and could refer to the accents or the presenters themselves. How true. As to why I emphasised English? Well, Mr Mazor asked about American British pronunciations but I believe most sincerely that he wasn't too concerned with British Welsh, Gaelic, Manx, Cornish, (and any others I've forgotten about,) but with English. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/free/ Free Software: !Jcut - JPEG Cut & Paste, Transform, Contrast & Colour Tweaking >>> > <snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Did I make reference to non-British presenters? I don't think so. You're wriggling. >>> What distinction? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > concerned with British Welsh, Gaelic, Manx, Cornish, (and any others > I've forgotten about,) but with English. You're still wriggling......... Signaturewanderer at tesco dot net > >>> > <snip> > >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > > > Did I make reference to non-British presenters? I don't think so. > You're wriggling. Curious? I wonder why you think I'm wriggling? Maybe it's because your response was really quite out of order. I certainly didn't make any reference whatsoever to non-British presenters. Perhaps you're one of those who have yet to understand the concept of Britishness when compared to Englishness? > >>> What distinction? > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > too concerned with British Welsh, Gaelic, Manx, Cornish, (and any > > others I've forgotten about,) but with English. > You're still wriggling......... Really? I think you've only now seen how preposterous your response was (vis-a-vis "non-British" presenters) and, scared of losing face, are attempting to give the impression that my position is unsteady; it is as firm as a rock. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/yds/abt-0.htm The Yorkshire Dialect Society: Badges & Ties <snip> >> You're wriggling. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > those who have yet to understand the concept of Britishness when > compared to Englishness? <snip> >> You're still wriggling......... > > Really? I think you've only now seen how preposterous your response was > (vis-a-vis "non-British" presenters) and, scared of losing face, are > attempting to give the impression that my position is unsteady; it is > as firm as a rock. You're still wriggling. You may have known what you wanted to say, but what you wrote most certainly didn't say what you meant, and you know it! The earlier post from Rob Kerr drew attention most succinctly to the inherrent lack of clarity within your earlier statement. Signaturewanderer at tesco dot net > <snip> > >> You're wriggling. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > you're one of those who have yet to understand the concept of > > Britishness when compared to Englishness? > <snip> > >> You're still wriggling......... > > > > Really? I think you've only now seen how preposterous your response > > was (vis-a-vis "non-British" presenters) and, scared of losing > > face, are attempting to give the impression that my position is > > unsteady; it is as firm as a rock. > You're still wriggling. No, but you're still trolling. > You may have known what you wanted to say, but what you wrote most > certainly didn't say what you meant, and you know it! The earlier > post from Rob Kerr drew attention most succinctly to the inherrent > lack of clarity within your earlier statement. The semi-colon would indicate the presenters; the accents would call on a colon. Ah, but you didn't accuse me of lack of clarity, did you? You asked me "why the distinction between British and English?" And I ask you again: What distinction? Seems to me that if anyone is wriggling here, it's you. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/ Welcome: Step Into The Light... >> <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > No, but you're still trolling. That is your opinion. It is also a last resort on usenet to accuse someone of trolling when you realise you have an unsustainable argument. >> You may have known what you wanted to say, but what you wrote most >> certainly didn't say what you meant, and you know it! The earlier [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The semi-colon would indicate the presenters; the accents would call on > a colon. Oh, I see. When all else fails, give your own interpretation of the rules. It is a very safe course of action for the English language, where there is no final arbiter. Unfortunately this does not alter my view that your choice of phrase that started this exchange is readily open to mis-interpretation, something that you seem most reluctant to acknowledge. > Ah, but you didn't accuse me of lack of clarity, did you? You asked me > "why the distinction between British and English?" No, I made the mistake of creditting you with enough intelligence to go back and re-consider what you had written. > And I ask you again: What distinction? Seems to me that if anyone is > wriggling here, it's you. Oh, I don't think so. It isn't me that is having to resort to obfuscation in an attempt to muddy the waters. It would seem that this dialogue has reached its logical conclusion. May I commend to you a little maxim that I try to keep in mind:- Have I understood what the other guy is saying? Have I meant what I said? Have I said what I mean? Signaturewanderer at tesco dot net > >> <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > > > No, but you're still trolling. > That is your opinion. It is also a last resort on usenet to accuse > someone of trolling when you realise you have an unsustainable > argument. Is it really? On the other hand, I have an exceedingly sustainable argument and I still insist that you are trolling. So, it seems that, even if we take your word about last resorts (which, I hasten to assure more sensible readers, is not necessarily the case but I can't be fagged to argue the toss on it), someone can be accused of trolling by a poster very assured of the validity of his stance. Indeed, if the person so accused is particularly well known to troll, the strength of the accusers' argument would really have no bearing. > >> You may have known what you wanted to say, but what you wrote most > >> certainly didn't say what you meant, and you know it! The earlier [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The semi-colon would indicate the presenters; the accents would > > call on a colon. > Oh, I see. When all else fails, give your own interpretation of the > rules. It is a very safe course of action for the English language, > where there is no final arbiter. Unfortunately this does not alter my > view that your choice of phrase that started this exchange is readily > open to mis-interpretation, something that you seem most reluctant to > acknowledge. No, quite the contrary: when Rob posted that "the antecedent to "them" in your last statement is unclear, and could refer to the accents or the presenters themselves", my unequivocal response was, "How true." That you now take the line apparent in your last paragraph is just another illustration of your desire to troll. However, I acknowledge the lack of clarity because of regard to the probable intelligence of the reader, not of the writer; were I assured that all my readers had an acquaintance with English equal to mine, I would be secure in the knowledge of its perfect clarity: as I would have been had I wished to refer to the accents using a semi-colon and substituted the word "those" for "them". > > Ah, but you didn't accuse me of lack of clarity, did you? You asked > > me "why the distinction between British and English?" > No, I made the mistake of creditting you with enough intelligence to > go back and re-consider what you had written. I made the mistake of considering what you wrote and failed to find any reason why you should ask about a non-existent distinction. I see know that you were merely trolling. > > And I ask you again: What distinction? Seems to me that if anyone > > is wriggling here, it's you. > Oh, I don't think so. It isn't me that is having to resort to > obfuscation in an attempt to muddy the waters. If any waters are muddy, my dear Wanderer, it is because you have pissed in them. > It would seem that this dialogue has reached its logical conclusion. > May I commend to you a little maxim that I try to keep in mind:- > Have I understood what the other guy is saying? Have I meant what I > said? Have I said what I mean? Okay, now tell me what do did mean by asking me "why the distinction between British and English?" when I made no distinction other than the correct and obvious one. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0y15-0.htm The recently renovated South face of Rockingham's magnificent pyramidal folly at Wentworth <snip> > Is it really? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Indeed, if the person so accused is particularly well known to troll, > the strength of the accusers' argument would really have no bearing. <snip> > No, quite the contrary: when Rob posted that "the antecedent to "them" > in your last statement is unclear, and could refer to the accents or [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > have been had I wished to refer to the accents using a semi-colon and > substituted the word "those" for "them". <snip> > I made the mistake of considering what you wrote and failed to find any > reason why you should ask about a non-existent distinction. I see know > that you were merely trolling. <snip> > If any waters are muddy, my dear Wanderer, it is because you have > pissed in them. <snip> > Okay, now tell me what do did mean by asking me "why the distinction > between British and English?" when I made no distinction other than the > correct and obvious one. You posted a comment that was, on the face of it, open to interpretation. > British news presenters on the Beeb exhibit different accents; many of > them aren't even English. It was ostensibly ambiguous in its meaning. It may be concise, it may be accurate, but it certainly ain't clear. Indeed, I would readily admit that my first impression when I read it was that you were meaning that many news presenters weren't English. Your intent is irrelevant. It was how I read that comment. It was only when I re-read the comment that your intent became clear. I don't for one moment argue or dispute the accuracy. The initial impact of your choice of phrase construction - at least for me - was to make me think that you were expressing a view that I realised was not what you intended. I repeat, there is some ambiguity. I attempted to draw your attention to that ambiguity.You have since resorted to literary irrelevance in an attempt to justify your position, as well as accusing me of trolling. Your comments above say much more about you than they do about me. In the end you have demonstrated that you are apparently well-educated, but are sadly lacking in intelligence or wisdom to make use of that education. I see no further merit in continuing this discussion. Signaturewanderer at tesco dot net [Snip] > I see no further merit in continuing this discussion. Good. Can I stop wriggling now? Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/50-ravens.htm Upon the hill, within the stones, among the scattering of bones... >> <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > How is it sweeping, and how possibly quite incorrect? Are you talking about the presenters or their accents? It certainly isn't clear from your comments. If you are talking about presenters, how are you able to assert that 'many of them aren't even English'? > What distinction? You talk about 'British' news presenters but 'English' accents. What is, what defines an 'English' accent? Is a Tyneside accent any less English than a Brummie accent or an Estuary accent? Every news (and weather) presenter I can bring to mind speaks in very clear and easily understood English, that is far more important than the accent they use. Signaturewanderer at tesco dot net > >> <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > How is it sweeping, and how possibly quite incorrect? > Are you talking about the presenters or their accents? It certainly > isn't clear from your comments. If you are talking about presenters, > how are you able to assert that 'many of them aren't even English'? Because they aren't; some are Welsh; some are Scottis; Some are Irish; and I dare say there are even other nationalities. > > What distinction? > You talk about 'British' news presenters but 'English' accents. What > is, what defines an 'English' accent? Is a Tyneside accent any less > English than a Brummie accent or an Estuary accent? No but a Glaswegian accent is certainly less English than any of those you've mentioned. > Every news (and weather) presenter I can bring to mind speaks in very > clear and easily understood English, that is far more important than > the accent they use. You haven't lived. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/wfolly/3kc0-0.htm Keppel's Column: The Eastern Door > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That's a rather sweeping, and possibly quite incorrect, statement to > make. And why the distinction between British and English? Some of them are Scottish, some Welsh, etc: all of whom are British, but who would be offended to hear their accents described as English. Then there are also regional English accents. SignatureDoug -- brain under construction > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That's a rather sweeping, and possibly quite incorrect, statement to > make. And why the distinction between British and English? For the record, this was BBC World News on radio and the presenters (there were several who did the boosh thing) had definite British accents. I can't pin it down any closer than that. I usually can pick out a pronounced (double entendre intended) Irish or Scot accent, and some other obvious ones such as the Beatles' Liverpudlian, Cockney, and ethnic "English is my second language" speakers. None of these applied. >><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > such as the Beatles' Liverpudlian, Cockney, and ethnic "English is my second > language" speakers. None of these applied. I suspect it was a mild Scottish accent. Many Scottish speakers of standard English retain this vowel sound - I seem to recall people I know from Edinburgh using it, even though most of their sounds were fairly standard (meaning what used to be called RP). Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > >><snip> > >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > know from Edinburgh using it, even though most of their sounds were > fairly standard (meaning what used to be called RP). I was leaning in that direction myself, but being a rank amateur, I wanted to ask people who might actually know. > > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That's a rather sweeping, and possibly quite incorrect, statement > > to make. And why the distinction between British and English? > For the record, this was BBC World News on radio and the presenters > (there were several who did the boosh thing) had definite British [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Liverpudlian, Cockney, and ethnic "English is my second language" > speakers. None of these applied. There might still be non-English British accents which aren't so pronounced as to be obvious to foreigners (or, indeed, so pronounced as to be not obvious to foreigners). Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/joachim/04-0.htm "Did you know that 'B' and 'F' are two pillars supporting the octave of musical tones?" asked Joachim... > > > <snip> > > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > pronounced as to be obvious to foreigners (or, indeed, so pronounced as > to be not obvious to foreigners). Indeed. The BBC seems to make it a point to have a mix of non-British presenters, which makes sense when the program is titled "World News" and marketed worldwide. Here in the U.S. the non-native born TV news anchor is a rarity. <snip> > Indeed. The BBC seems to make it a point to have a mix of non-British > presenters, Err, they may be from ethnic minority backgrounds, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are non-British. Signaturewanderer at tesco dot net > <snip> > > Indeed. The BBC seems to make it a point to have a mix of > > non-British presenters, > Err, they may be from ethnic minority backgrounds, but that doesn't > necessarily mean they are non-British. That some of the presenters might be British from ethnic minority backgrounds doesn't preclude the possibility (or even the probability) that some presenters are non-British. What's your point? Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/joachim/08-0.htm Through the Valley of Despair they came; an innumerable surge of gross humanity... >> <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > backgrounds doesn't preclude the possibility (or even the probability) > that some presenters are non-British. Did I say otherwise? I think not. > What's your point? Are you being deliberately obtuse? JM suggested that the BBC employed a mix of non-British presenters. Are you or JM privy to information that would support that claim? A more accurate observation would be that the BBC seems to make a point of using a mix of presenters from different ethnic backgrounds. Signaturewanderer at tesco dot net > >> <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > backgrounds doesn't preclude the possibility (or even the > > probability) that some presenters are non-British. > Did I say otherwise? I think not. No, of course you didn't say otherwise. However, your phrasing did suggest that the BBC's use of non-Britons was exceedingly unlikely given the possibility of using ethnic minority Britons. > > What's your point? > Are you being deliberately obtuse? JM suggested that the BBC employed > a mix of non-British presenters. Are you or JM privy to information > that would support that claim? Are you privy to information that would disprove it? I know I've heard non-Britons on R4; I should think it more likely that non-Britons would be employed on the World Service. > A more accurate observation would be that the BBC seems to make a > point of using a mix of presenters from different ethnic backgrounds. True but that doesn't say anything about their nationality, one way or another. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ada/08-0.htm Large, firm thighs, without too much fat on them... <snip> >> A more accurate observation would be that the BBC seems to make a >> point of using a mix of presenters from different ethnic backgrounds. > > True but that doesn't say anything about their nationality, one way or > another. Good, very good! The light has obviously dawned. Signaturewanderer at tesco dot net > <snip> > >> A more accurate observation would be that the BBC seems to make a > >> point of using a mix of presenters from different ethnic > >> backgrounds. > > > > True but that doesn't say anything about their nationality, one way > > or another. > Good, very good! The light has obviously dawned. I'm glad to hear it. Thanks for letting me know. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/wfolly/ The Wentworth Follies: Needle's Eye, Hoober Stand, Keppel's Column, Rockingham Mausoleum > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Err, they may be from ethnic minority backgrounds, but that doesn't > necessarily mean they are non-British. True enough, but some of them seem to belong to the "I was born elsewhere, English is my second language" cohort. Whether or not that makes them "British" is an artifact of their citizenship laws. >> I'm no Professor 'Iggens, but I have a lifelong interest in, and >> sensitivity for local dialect pronunciations. I'm particularly [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > that particular strange accent wasn't just another of the many > strange US accents. Bloimey, Mary Pawpins! That's a bit 'arsh! SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > Anyway, years ago I noted that native residents of the Maryland area around > Washington, D.C. would pronounce the "u" in words such as bush as the oo in > "whoosh" (the oo drawn out as a long o-o-o). I figured it was some kind of > local colonial corruption, until I started hearing British news presenters > on BBC doing the same thing with "President Bush" as in "who-o-osh". I *think* Gavin Essler says something resembling "Boosh" but most of them rhyme it with "push". Does anyone know Gavin's accent, by the way? -Luke >> Anyway, years ago I noted that native residents of the Maryland area around >> Washington, D.C. would pronounce the "u" in words such as bush as the oo in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Does anyone know Gavin's accent, by the way? Scottish SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) >>Does anyone know Gavin's accent, by the way? > > Scottish I thought so but my Scottish partner wasn't so sure! -Luke > > Anyway, years ago I noted that native residents of the Maryland area around > > Washington, D.C. would pronounce the "u" in words such as bush as the oo in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I *think* Gavin Essler says something resembling "Boosh" but most of > them rhyme it with "push". The same Maryland speakers pronouced "push" with the same drawn-out o-o-o, an exact rhyme. > Does anyone know Gavin's accent, by the way? Who is Gavin Essler? > Who is Gavin Essler? A BBC journalist/news reader. Not sure if he pops up on the World Service, which you are listening to. -Luke "Luke" <lpgmx@f2s.com> wrote... > > Who is Gavin Essler? > > A BBC journalist/news reader. Not sure if he pops up on the World > Service, which you are listening to. If you're googling him, his name's Esler. He was born in Scotland and his first broadcasting job was in Ireland. Matti > > Who is Gavin Essler? > > A BBC journalist/news reader. Not sure if he pops up on the World > Service, which you are listening to. Thanks. I'll have to pay more attention to the names. >> Anyway, years ago I noted that native residents of the Maryland area >> around Washington, D.C. would pronounce the "u" in words such as [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I *think* Gavin Essler says something resembling "Boosh" but most of > them rhyme it with "push". So, unless I'm imagining things, do a number of presenters with Scottish origins - James Naughtie and Andrew Neill come to mind. -- Mike Stevens narowboat Felis Catus II web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk Million-to-one chances turn up nine times out of ten. (Terry Pratchett) > I'm no Professor 'Iggens, but I have a lifelong interest in, and sensitivity > for local dialect pronunciations. I'm particularly fascinated with the > persistence of Elizabethan dialectic pronunciations that have been > documented in various backwater areas of the eastern United States. "Documented" = "the subject of persistent unfounded urban legend". The idea survives because the notion of a sort of linguistic "Deliverance", where the guys in dungarees go in for diphthongs rather than sodomy, makes such a cool yarn. (Americans also invented Brigadoon; miraculous cultural survivals from the distant past are a national myth). Since no surviving English-speaking colony in North America was founded in Elizabethan times your theory requires that they settled by time machine as well as by boat. There is nowhere in North America where a speaker of any of the innumerable and mutually incomprehensible dialects of Elizabethan English could pass as a native. What *is* true is that some *features* of English dialects of the distant past have ended up getting preserved in widely scattered places, but a feature does not make a dialect. New Zealanders aren't speaking the court Scots of Queen Mary's time simply because they say "ashet", even though that probably is where the word came from. > Anyway, years ago I noted that native residents of the Maryland area around > Washington, D.C. would pronounce the "u" in words such as bush as the oo in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Can anyone comment on the British origins of this pronunciation? I pronounce "whoosh" (not a word I use a lot) and "Bush" (a word I'd rather have much less need to use) with the same vowel sound (as in "foot"). Do you have in mind a sound like French "bouche", English "food"? I've never heard a speaker of any British English dialect doing that. I'd suspect African rather than British influence. If this is an import of a US pronunciation, the chances are it won't last. No kid here is going to grow up being called Colon just because there's a temporarily-well-known American arsehole who says Colin that way. ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music. > > I'm no Professor 'Iggens, but I have a lifelong interest in, and sensitivity > > for local dialect pronunciations. I'm particularly fascinated with the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > yarn. (Americans also invented Brigadoon; miraculous cultural survivals from > the distant past are a national myth). Did we invent Camelot? > Since no surviving English-speaking colony in North America was founded in > Elizabethan times your theory requires that they settled by time machine as [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Scots of Queen Mary's time simply because they say "ashet", even though that > probably is where the word came from. I am truly and humbly chastised by your vast and superior knowledge. However, a few niggling doubts persist. The Elizabethan era, by the most conservative and restrictive definition, lasted at least until 1603. The earliest English settlements in Maryland and Virginia were less than two decades later. Unless there was a massive change in the language during that short period, settlers brought with them most if not all of the characteristics of English as it was spoken in the Elizabethan era in their native regions. So while the use of the term "Elizabethan" may not be technically correct in that she was dead by then, the practical difference is triffling. More to the point, I did not claim that I heard an "Elizabethan dialect." If you had read my statement carefully, you would have realized that I deliberately chose the term "Elizabethan dialectic pronunciations". While that may not be a term of art for professional students of linguistics, it's meaning is clear enough: specific pronunciations of specific words, not a complete dialect. Actually, I was several minutes into the conversation that elicited the "noine thewsand dawlers" phrase before I paid closer attention. Up until that point, I was only vaguely aware of some subtle differences in the speaker's pronunciation; otherwise, there was nothing remarkable to note. It wasn't until he strung together three glaring examples that I realized that I was listening to remnants of a British accent. If you care to document how "noine thewsand dawlers" springs from a later era of the British branch of the English language, so much removed that it could not possibly bear the loose attribution of "Elizabethan," please do so and I shall be properly corrected. > > Anyway, years ago I noted that native residents of the Maryland area around > > Washington, D.C. would pronounce the "u" in words such as bush as the oo in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you have in mind a sound like French "bouche", English "food"? I've never > heard a speaker of any British English dialect doing that. You better tell that to the several BBC radio presenters whom I heard using that exact boosh pronunciation amidst their obvious British accents. The French bouche sounds very close, although that's based on pronunciations I learned in high school French so I can't vouch for it. Using the word "moo" to actually imitate a cow sound (as opposed to the shorter, less-stressed sound when using it less onomotopoeiacally as in "a cow's moo") also is very close. > I'd suspect African rather than British influence. Aboriginal or Afrikaaner African? The latter is a non-starter for my local speakers, although the former admits the hypothesis that the pronunciations I heard from local speakers I heard were influenced by African slaves. However, given the culture of the times and the master-slave relationship, that's rather unlikely. Unlike today, where white rappers strive to sound black, no white from that era would want to sound anything like a "negro". > If this is an import of a US pronunciation, the chances are it won't last. I seriously doubt that it's an import. The boosh pronunciation is particular to rural areas, rarely heard even there nowadays, and hence an unlikely candidate for reverse migration. > No kid here is going to grow up being called Colon just because there's a > temporarily-well-known American arsehole who says Colin that way. > > ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <======== > Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian Midlothian, Virginia is a tolerably short ride from where I live. I think you underestimate the persistence of British culture and language on your American cousins. Off topic: What is the derivation of Midlothian? The naive assumption is that there must be other Lothians not centrally located, cf. Essex-Wessex, Norfolk-Suffolk, but it can't be that simple, right? At 22:58:46 on Tue, 21 Sep 2004, John Mazor <mazorj@erols.com> wrote in <4150ea7b$0$2665$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>: >Off topic: What is the derivation of Midlothian? The naive assumption is >that there must be other Lothians not centrally located, cf. Essex-Wessex, >Norfolk-Suffolk, but it can't be that simple, right? East Lothian and West Lothian. SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 22:58:46 on Tue, 21 Sep 2004, John Mazor <mazorj@erols.com> wrote in > <4150ea7b$0$2665$61fed72c@news.rcn.com>: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > East Lothian and West Lothian. Ah. Thanks. Although I can't find an East or West Lothian here! > If you care to document how "noine thewsand dawlers" springs from a > later era of the British branch of the English language, so much > removed that it could not possibly bear the loose attribution of > "Elizabethan," please do so and I shall be properly corrected. Well, it's not so very different from the sort of super-upper-class hyperlect spoken by people like the Duke of Edinburgh. But then I suppose he counts as Elizabethan, depending on which Elizabeth you're thinking of :-) . Come to think of it, our present HMQ spoke like that when she was younger. > Off topic: What is the derivation of Midlothian? The naive > assumption is that there must be other Lothians not centrally > located, cf. Essex-Wessex, Norfolk-Suffolk, but it can't be that > simple, right? Midlothian, East Lothian and West Lothian are nowadays all Unitary Authorities in Scotland. Back in history/mythology (my knowledge of Scottish history isn't good enough to know where one ends and the other begins) it was a Kingdom in its own right. So Mid-Lothian presumably referred to the middle bit of that Kingdom. At one time, Lothian was dominated by Angles and more English than Scottish, until the Picts conquered it in the seventh century AD. In the twelfth century, the name "Scotland" referred to only one part of what the name now means, and one of the other parts was Lothian. > > If you care to document how "noine thewsand dawlers" springs from a > > later era of the British branch of the English language, so much [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > twelfth century, the name "Scotland" referred to only one part of what the > name now means, and one of the other parts was Lothian. That's what I love about jumping into newsgroups like this, instant education on obscure matters that I find interesting. Thanks. > Midlothian, East Lothian and West Lothian are nowadays all Unitary > Authorities in Scotland. In Victorian/Edwardian times these were often referred to in guidebooks and atlases as Edinburghshire, Haddingtonshire and Linlithgowshire respectively. I have a suspicion these names did not trip easily from the Scottish tongue and I wonder if they were mainly an attempt to Anglicize ? Neil >> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian > Midlothian, Virginia is a tolerably short ride from where I live. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is that there must be other Lothians not centrally located, cf. Essex- > Wessex, Norfolk-Suffolk, but it can't be that simple, right? Midlothian is the county south of Edinburgh; it used to be called Edinburghshire. There are also counties of West Lothian and East Lothian. The whole area of Lothian is supposed to be named after a semi-mythical (presumably Welsh) king called Loth. The lands of the Marquis of Lothian are a rather different area, derived from the holdings of the Abbey of Newbattle when it was privatized and handed to the Ker family in the 17th century. The Lothian Coal Company (their erstwhile family business) was mostly in Midlothian and their family seat was a couple of miles from here at the old abbey centre. Until last year the Marquis of Lothian was our feudal superior, in a position to permit or refuse building alterations, so the relationship was not purely linguistic. As far as I know, there is no county in the US called Midlothian, but the name is applied to a couple of towns. The most likely explanation is that they got the name from Walter Scott's novel "The Heart of Midlothian" (1818), one of the greatest hits of his entire career. The fact that the name is applied to towns rather than county-sized areas suggests that it was imposed by a Romantic-literature buff in authority rather than adopted organically by a folk process. There should be a midlothian.gov.uk website, I haven't looked. ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music. > >> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian > > Midlothian, Virginia is a tolerably short ride from where I live. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > suggests that it was imposed by a Romantic-literature buff in authority > rather than adopted organically by a folk process. Not knowing the history of the nearby Midlothian, that certainly is a possibility. My only counter-argument would be that Eastern U.S. maps are plentifully dotted with place names that clearly were carried over from the settlers' native geography. (More recent settlements - hell, we're talking about housing developers' marketing fantasies to create a cachet - carry manufactured place and street names that are the real estate equivalent of Ye Olde Antique Shoppe, but no one pays any attention to those.) The other obvious pattern in place names from early American settlements is Indian names. That's natural enough, but sometimes it leads to some comically bizarre results. One of my relatives lived in a town along a river wetlands area called Poquoson, which is Native American for swamp. One imagines the scene: Some early English settlers ask a nearby native what they call this area. "Poquoson" is the response from the Indian, who wonders how these foreigners could be so stupid as to not know what a swamp is. "Well, there you go, Poquoson it is! Write it down on the map, Harry." > The other obvious pattern in place names from early American settlements is > Indian names. That's natural enough, but sometimes it leads to some [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > wonders how these foreigners could be so stupid as to not know what a swamp > is. "Well, there you go, Poquoson it is! Write it down on the map, Harry." You get the same in Britain with Celtic placenames, leading to bizarre things like "River Avon". In Scotland it helps to know a bit of Gaelic when planning a hillwalk from a map, so you'll know what to expect when walking over Pass of the Great Swamp between Black Windy Mountain and Soggy Green Hill (most Gaelic placenames are topographical descriptions). Some Gaelic placenames are not quite what they seem. The Cuillin Hills in Skye have an extraordinary density of names for their peaks, gullies and ridges. Almost all of them date only from the late 19th century, when mountaineers started taking an interest - the local shepherds spent as little time as possible up there and only named the most obvious bits. A friend of mine assured me that there was a place somewhere in the Highlands whose name, first recorded by a non-Gaelic-speaking surveyor, means "stick that telescope thing up your arse". ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <======== Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760 <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes, Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music. > > The other obvious pattern in place names from early American settlements is > > Indian names. That's natural enough, but sometimes it leads to some [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes, > Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music. One fascinating Americanism is the pronunciation of aunt. Many American speakers including respected broadcaster Garrison Kiellor pronounce this to rhyme with want, or taunt. Why? You would expect they would pronounce it the same way they pronounce can't, to rhyme with pant. Maybe, at one time, there was a great number of English Aunties in America? Canadians pronounce aunt rhyming with pant, unless they have an aunt in the Caribbean. > One fascinating Americanism is the pronunciation of aunt. > > Many American speakers including respected broadcaster Garrison Kiellor > pronounce this to rhyme with want, or taunt. > > Why? I struggled with this years ago, and concluded that it was to be consistent with the universally accepted U.S. pronunciation of "haunt" to rhyme with taunt. Then I noticd that certain backwater speakers (I refuse to label them in this newsgroup as Elizabethan!) used the dialect pronunciation of "hant" as in a ghostly "hant" and a "hanted house". (Aspirated h in both hant and house - we Americans also struggle with our heritage English words that begin with an h. We say "honor" and "honest" and a few other words unaspirated, but most are aspirated.) > You would expect they would pronounce it the same way they pronounce can't, > to rhyme with pant. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Canadians pronounce aunt rhyming with pant, unless they have an aunt in the > Caribbean. You plumb eluded me there. Can you elucidate? > > One fascinating Americanism is the pronunciation of aunt. > > > > Many American speakers including respected broadcaster Garrison > > Kiellor pronounce this to rhyme with want, or taunt. > > > > Why? > I struggled with this years ago, and concluded that it was to be > consistent with the universally accepted U.S. pronunciation of > "haunt" to rhyme with taunt. How strange. Here it's pronounced much as is aren't but sometimes a bit shorter, especially with older aunts. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/gay/12-0.htm Harry the Panda was awfully strong >>The other obvious pattern in place names from early American settlements is >>Indian names. That's natural enough, but sometimes it leads to some [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Highlands whose name, first recorded by a non-Gaelic-speaking surveyor, > means "stick that telescope thing up your arse". LOL! Regards, Einde O'Callaghan On 23 Sep, in article <12716@purr.demon.co.uk> > A friend of mine assured me that there was a place somewhere in the > Highlands whose name, first recorded by a non-Gaelic-speaking surveyor, > means "stick that telescope thing up your arse". This seems akin to the supposed recordings of the words "llama" and "budgerigar". SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi- national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet software and decent hardware support." > On 23 Sep, in article <12716@purr.demon.co.uk> bogus@purr.demon.co.uk > > A friend of mine assured me that there was a place somewhere in the > > Highlands whose name, first recorded by a non-Gaelic-speaking > > surveyor, means "stick that telescope thing up your arse". > This seems akin to the supposed recordings of the words "llama" and > "budgerigar". Yes, I have a talking budgie that tells my llama to "stick that telescope thing up your arse" when it[1] starts getting randy. [1] The llama. (Thought I'd better qualify which I meant for the benefit of wandering mistrals.) Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/ How seven spheres, and seven days, and seven earthy metals, Their colours wind in endless maze, until all motion settles. <snip> > [1] The llama. (Thought I'd better qualify which I meant for the > benefit of wandering mistrals.) Excellent! Delighted to see no trace of ambiguity there. Why, I think therre might even be a sense of humour lurking somewhere. Signaturewanderer at tesco dot net > <snip> > > [1] The llama. (Thought I'd better qualify which I meant for the > > benefit of wandering mistrals.) > Excellent! Delighted to see no trace of ambiguity there. Why, I think > therre might even be a sense of humour lurking somewhere. Oh, very dry! Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0y15-0.htm The recently renovated South face of Rockingham's magnificent pyramidal folly at Wentworth > > The other obvious pattern in place names from early American settlements is > > Indian names. That's natural enough, but sometimes it leads to some [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Highlands whose name, first recorded by a non-Gaelic-speaking surveyor, > means "stick that telescope thing up your arse". Bwha-wha-wha! Good 'un, I can't possibly top that! If it ain't true, it ought to be. On Tuesday, in article <4150ea7b$0$2665$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> mazorj@erols.com > If you care to document how "noine thewsand dawlers" springs from a later > era of the British branch of the English language, so much removed that it > could not possibly bear the loose attribution of "Elizabethan," please do so > and I shall be properly corrected. To my mind, what you are trying to describe (and what I have heard in TV programmes about these self-same "pockets of Elizabethan English" in the USA) is akin to a West Country accent. Since many of those new colonists were sentenced to "transportation for life to the Virginias/Carolinas/Barbadoes", and often hung around for months in and around Bristol, it's perhaps an assimilation of that accent. In the same way that, a century or so later, the Orsetryleans were generated from people who languished in prison hulks on the Essex marshes for some years before finally gaining their transportation. SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi- national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet software and decent hardware support." > On Tuesday, in article > <4150ea7b$0$2665$61fed72c@news.rcn.com> mazorj@erols.com [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > generated from people who languished in prison hulks on the Essex marshes > for some years before finally gaining their transportation. Thanks once again. I had read about this phenomenon in the eastern U.S., but what I heard on that afternoon 30 years ago has stuck vividly in my memory ever since. It was like taking a short trip in a time machine. |
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