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Discussion Groups / British English / October 2004Still on American pronounciation
De-lurking to ask something that has been worrying me for ages. How long, and why, if anyone knows, have some Americans been saying 'erbs' for herbs? Veronica. West Mids. Yam-yam Country. > De-lurking to ask something that has been worrying me for ages. > > How long, and why, if anyone knows, have some Americans been saying 'erbs' > for herbs? I understand taht this was the original pronunciation. "Language colonies" often retain vocabulary, pronunciation and grammar forms taht have died out in the "mother country", e.g. "tea" is pronounced "tay" in many parts of Ireland - this was the standard pronunciation in the 18th century, as can be seen from rhymes in 18th century poetry. regards, Einde O'Callaghan > > De-lurking to ask something that has been worrying me for ages. > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > many parts of Ireland - this was the standard pronunciation in the 18th > century, as can be seen from rhymes in 18th century poetry. Yes, the root is 'erby' but I can't recall hearing it on TV or radio programmes until quite recently. Has the old pronunciation always been commonly used in the USA - or parts of? I must have been listening to the wrong programmes. It might also explain 'route' as in our 'root', and their 'rout'. Veronica > > > De-lurking to ask something that has been worrying me for ages. > > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I must have been listening to the wrong programmes. It might also explain > 'route' as in our 'root', and their 'rout'. In my youth, I heard and pronounced it with the aspirated h. Later, I adopted the 'erb pronunciation, as it sounded more sophisticated and was more commonly used. The dictionary lists both pronunciations. There also is a backwater (I learned not to say Elizabethan here) pronunciation, rendered in text dialect as yarb. I've never actually heard that usage, but I imagine a short, barely aspirated h before the y. I've only heard route pronounced as in "cow" from rural speakers, specifically in the southern U.S. but perhaps in other areas. Route as in root is much more prevalent. There is a program that explores the historical diversity of American music called "American Routes" with a deliberate play on the word "roots". Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word forte is often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but probably because Americans with high school French think that "fort" cannot possibly be the proper pronunciation. > Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word > forte is often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but > probably because Americans with high school French think that "fort" > cannot possibly be the proper pronunciation. In musical terminology, "forte" is always (in the UK at any rate) pronounced "for-tay" (1), but in that context is derives from Italian rather than from French. Interestingly and confusingly, in French the feminine andjective "forte" is pronounced much like the English "fort", whereas the masculine "fort" is pronounced more like the English "fore". (1) I supposed really something between "fot-tay" and "forty". -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. > > Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word > > forte is often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > (1) I supposed really something between "fot-tay" and "forty". Stop! You're giving me an Excedrin headache! > > > > How long, and why, if anyone knows, have some Americans been saying > > 'erbs' [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > pronunciation, rendered in text dialect as yarb. I've never actually heard > that usage, but I imagine a short, barely aspirated h before the y. Okay, I see the trend now. Incidentally, my husband has accused me of being 'cloth-eared' and get myself out and talk to my neighbours. I did. Everyone I spoke to says 'erbs!' But there again, I commonly hear - or rather - I commonly ear 'my ouse,' 'are you appy today?' and the like. So perhaps I am nit-picking. > I've only heard route pronounced as in "cow" from rural speakers, > specifically in the southern U.S. but perhaps in other areas. Route as in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Americans with high school French think that "fort" cannot possibly be the > proper pronunciation. Ah. I think I had better shut up. French is not my for-tea Thank you, and farewell. Veronica > > There also is a backwater (I learned not to say Elizabethan here) > > pronunciation, rendered in text dialect as yarb. I've never actually heard > > that usage, but I imagine a short, barely aspirated h before the y. > > Okay, I see the trend now. Incidentally, my husband has accused me of being > 'cloth-eared' Here we would say you have a tin ear. > and get myself out and talk to my neighbours. I did. Everyone > I spoke to says 'erbs!' But there again, I commonly hear - or rather - I > commonly ear 'my ouse,' 'are you appy today?' and the like. So perhaps I am > nit-picking. "You say potato, I say potahto, You say tomato, I say tomahto, Potato, potahto, Tomato, tomahto, Let's call the whole thing off." > > I've only heard route pronounced as in "cow" from rural speakers, > > specifically in the southern U.S. but perhaps in other areas. Route as in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word forte is > > often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but probably because > > Americans with high school French think that "fort" cannot possibly be the > > proper pronunciation. > > > Ah. I think I had better shut up. French is not my for-tea > Thank you, and farewell. I think that was a pun? "He who would pun would pick a pocket." Maturin responding to Aubrey's "the lesser of two weevils" in "The Far Side of the World". (However, O'Brian borrowed that from Johnson or Purcell.) But I still love puns and double entendres, keep them coming. > Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word forte is > often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but probably because > Americans with high school French think that "fort" cannot possibly be the > proper pronunciation. And don't they tend to stress the second syllable (ca-FE) instead of the first (CA-fe)? Why is this? -Luke > And don't they tend to stress the second syllable (ca-FE) instead of the > first (CA-fe)? Why is this? Because there is often a diacritical mark over the 'e', indicating that the stress should be placed there. In my childhood idiolect, the correct pronunciation of 'cafe' was 'caff'. Yours may differ, as may those of others in different ways from yours and mine. Giles. >>And don't they tend to stress the second syllable (ca-FE) instead of the >>first (CA-fe)? Why is this? > > Because there is often a diacritical mark over the 'e', indicating > that the stress should be placed there. I think the acute accent on the 'e' is to indicate that a vowel sound is made at the end of the word, not that the second syllable is stressed more than the first. Without the accent, the French would say 'caff', just as you did as a kid! With it, they say CA-fay not ca-FAY. I guess a lot of Americans make this assumption as well. > In my childhood idiolect, the correct pronunciation of 'cafe' was > 'caff'. Yours may differ, as may those of others in different ways > from yours and mine. >> Because there is often a diacritical mark over the 'e', indicating >> that the stress should be placed there. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I guess a lot of Americans make this assumption as well. I think you're right. I've read "pianoforté", but of course you don't say "pia-no-for-TE". Bye, FB  SignatureL'importante è che risplenda tu, sola primadonna e immarcescibile leggenda del tuo pianerottolo. (Lucangel su it.cultura.libri) > > Americans seem to struggle with words from the French. The word forte is > > often heard as "for-tay" which as listed as a variant, but probably because [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And don't they tend to stress the second syllable (ca-FE) instead of the > first (CA-fe)? Why is this? Yoiks. I have no idea, since I do the same thing! |
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