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Discussion Groups / British English / November 2004Question (English Usage)
Does one say: (i) Even if it WERE true... or (ii) Even it WAS true... Also, Does one say: (i) For HE who wishes to escape death and corruption there is but one sole option... or (ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption there is but one sole option... Thank you, Tojo >Does one say: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >(ii) Even it WAS true... Either is acceptable. Traditionally, a supposition following "if" used the subjunctive form "were", but "was" is now more commonly used. >Also, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >(ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption >there is but one sole option... The second is correct. Rearrange it as "there is but one sole option for him", and it becomes clear. Prepositions are always followed by the accusative for of a pronoun, not the nominative. Strictly speaking, "one sole option" is tautologous. It would be better to say "there is but one option".  SignatureJohn Hall "Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong." Oscar Wilde > Does one say: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (ii) Even it WAS true... Both are possible, but the second is more informal (and possibly also less common). > Also, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption > there is but one sole option... The second is the only one that is grammatically correct. however it sounds very formal and old-fashioned - like something out of the King James Version translation of the Bible. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan [I'm beginning to feel like Areff during his "under protest" phase. It's a slow Sunday, and the switch to standard time offered an extra hour for monkey business. So ...] > > Does one say: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Both are possible, but the second is more informal (and possibly also > less common). [ ... ] Under the traditional rules, they have different meanings. The first indicates that what is being discussed is unquestionably not true (i.e., false). "The statement that Ralph Nader is on the ballot in all 50 states is false -- and even if it WERE true, that would not mean that Nader has any chance to be elected." The second indicates uncertainty about truth or falsity: "I still don't know whether Bush's statement about Saddam's ties to al-Qaeda was true or false when he made it in early 2003, but even if it WAS true, it didn't justify the invasion of Iraq." (The foregoing is a grammatical example and does not necessarily represent my position on the issue.) Thank you and g'day. SignatureBob Lieblich Protesting mildly Tojo Hoki wrote on 30 Oct 2004: > Does one say: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (ii) Even it WAS true... This "one" says only the first when speaking of something hypothetically, and only the second when "it" used to be true but is no longer. Despite what anyone else may say about these two usages, they mean different things in English, even if most native speakers cannot or do not or will not understand and accept that simple fact. Using one for the other is ike using a pair of pliers when a socket wrench is clearly called for. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. > Tojo Hoki wrote on 30 Oct 2004: > > and only the second when "it" used to be true but is no > longer. Despite what anyone else may say about these two usages, You mean as in "even it WAS true 500 years longer age, we cannot blablabla"? Tojo! Tojo Hoki wrote on 31 Oct 2004: >> Tojo Hoki wrote on 30 Oct 2004: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You mean as in "even it WAS true 500 years longer > age, we cannot blablabla"? That's not quite grammatical: "Even if it was true 500 years ago that people could X, we cannot X today". SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor For email, replace numbers with English alphabet. > Tojo Hoki wrote on 31 Oct 2004: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "Even if it was true 500 years ago that people could X, we cannot X > today". -- HAHA! I don't know where the "longer" came from. Must've been the Stella. But thanks for your insights. Tojo! > CyberCypher <cybercypher@19-16-25-13-01-03.com> wrote > > Tojo Hoki wrote on 30 Oct 2004: > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You mean as in "even it WAS true 500 years longer > age, we cannot blablabla"? Yes, that's OK, with a slight change: Even if it WAS true 500 years ago, we cannot... SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > Does one say: > > (i) Even if it WERE true... Contrary to fact. Speaker is thinking: "which was not possible, it simply could not have been true, but pretend for the moment that it WAS..." Classic example: "If I were you..." (which of course I am not, but pretend I was, for a minute..." > or > > (ii) Even it WAS true... Allows for possibility of truth. Speaker is thinking, "All right, maybe it WAS true, although I hadn't heard of that until now..." Example: "Even if I WAS invited -- which you say I was, although I never heard it until now -- I would not have gone." > Also, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption > there is but one sole option... I wouldn't use that construction myself, as it sounds archaic to me. But I know I wouldn't put "but" and "sole" in the same phrase -- one is enough. I would say "For anyone wishing to escape..." (You know an option to escape death?) SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Yes, you are right about the tautology. But those were just some examples that I constructed in a hurry... I was primarily interested in the problem of we/were and he/him. Tojo! -- > > Does one say: > > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > (You know an option to escape death?) > Does one say: > > (i) Even if it WERE true... This is present tense, and implies that =it= is not true, and following this is a hypothetical consequence of =it= being true. > (ii) Even [if] it WAS true... This is past tense, and is the equivalent of saying, "Even though it was true...", followed by something that happened despite =it= being true. > (i) For HE who wishes to escape death and corruption > there is but one sole option... Bad. The object of a preposition is never "he". Nothing ever happens to he; nothing is for he; there is no information about he. He =does= things. > (ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption > there is but one sole option... Good. The object of a preposition can be "he". Things happen to him; things are for him; there is information about him. But him never =does= things. SignatureStefano ("Mr Know-it-All") MacGregor >>Does one say: >> >>(i) Even if it WERE true... > > This is present tense, and implies that =it= is not true, and > following this is a hypothetical consequence of =it= being true. This isn't the present tense - it's a subjunctive (often called the past subjunctive because of its form). But the interpretation is correct. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >Does one say: > >(i) Even if it WERE true... I wouldn't think badly of him. >or > >(ii) Even it WAS true... it is true no longer. >Also, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >(ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption >there is but one sole option... Neither, but the second is better and omit "sole". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk Even if it WERE true For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption there is but one sole option... On Saturday, in article > Even if it WERE true > > For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption > there is but one sole option... Everyone seems to have missed the possibility that the original author had misspelt "soul". ;-) SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi- national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet software and decent hardware support." > On Saturday, in article > > Even if it WERE true > > > > For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption there is but one > > sole option... > Everyone seems to have missed the possibility that the original > author had misspelt "soul". > ;-) Ah, but even if that WERE true, it wouldn't affect HIM, would it? Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/30-speak1.htm Iron, Germanium & Squares within Squares > > On Saturday, in article > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ah, but even if that WERE true, it wouldn't affect HIM, would it? I want to believe in the possibility, but I must dismiss it. hi Tojo, both (i) are the correct answers. > Does one say: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Thank you, > Tojo > "Tojo Hoki" a écrit: >> Does one say: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> (ii) For HIM who wishes to escape death and corruption >> there is but one sole option... > both (i) are the correct answers. Heavens, no! Not for the second question. Read "For HIM ... there is but one sole option." Drop the "sole", by the way. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) www.geocities.com/opus731/ At 21:46:48 on Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Thierry <thierry.longer@wanadoo.fr> wrote in <4186a09e$0$3595$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>: >both (i) are the correct answers. Thierry, apart from the fact that in the second case (ii) is in fact correct, your post isn't itself grammatically correct. It's like saying "Both apple are red". However, since one can't really say "Both (i)s are the correct answers" it would be better to re-cast the sentence, and say "In both cases, (i) is the correct answer". SignatureMolly Mockford I think I've been too long on my own, but the little green goblin that lives under the sink says I'm OK - and he's never wrong, so I must be! (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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