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English Usage (possessive nouns)

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Tojo Hoki - 24 Nov 2004 17:33 GMT
Hello,

Why does one say "the book of Job" and not "the book of Job's"?

What about "a reader of Shakespeare" and "a reader of Shakespeare's" –
are both correct?

"A friend of John" or "a friend of John's"?

"A follower of Mussolini" or "a follower of Mussolini's"

These possessive nouns in conjunction with "of" are
are quite confusing. Therefore, your clarifications would
be much appreciated.

Sincerely,
Tojo!
Don Phillipson - 24 Nov 2004 19:09 GMT
> Why does one say "the book of Job" and not "the book of Job's"?
>
> What about "a reader of Shakespeare" and "a reader of Shakespeare's" –
> are both correct?

Both are grammatically correct.  Book of Job is the proper
name of one of the books of the Old Testament, thus not
obliged to follow general rules of language (if there are
any.)

> "A friend of John" or "a friend of John's"?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> are quite confusing. Therefore, your clarifications would
> be much appreciated.

All these forms are grammatically correct.  Differences
are merely attributable to local custom, not grammar.
(One of the reason ESL is difficult is that English is
one of those languages with several different correct
ways of saying the same thing.)

Signature

Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

Tojo Hoki - 25 Nov 2004 18:42 GMT
Thanks

> > Why does one say "the book of Job" and not "the book of Job's"?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> one of those languages with several different correct
> ways of saying the same thing.)
Kiwi Gill - 24 Nov 2004 19:22 GMT
> Hello,
>
> Why does one say "the book of Job" and not "the book of Job's"?

The word "of" can denote possession, and an apostrope can denote possession,
but you must choose only one for one act of possession.

The examples you give are all a little different.

If you are talking about the Book of Job in the Bible, for example, it is
common to describe it as "the book of Job". A Bible Study leader might say,
for example, "turn to the Book of Job, or the Book of Acts, etc, etc." This
usage is usual because some of the books of the Bible carry the name of the
author while others do not, so a usage continues that can be applied for all
of them.

If you bought a new book by Joe Citizen, you would say, "I bought Joe
Citizen's new book."

> What about "a reader of Shakespeare" and "a reader of Shakespeare's" -
> are both correct?

Only "a reader of Shakespeare". Here Shakespeare is a subject being studied.
But you could say, "I am a reader of Shakespeare's work" and then you would
show that the work you are reading "belongs to" or came from Shakespeare.

> "A friend of John" or "a friend of John's"?

Either "a friend of John" or "John's friend."  I am a friend of John. I am
John's friend. But you might hear people say "a friend of John's" because
that sort of thing happens in speech, but it is not correct. :-)

> "A follower of Mussolini" or "a follower of Mussolini's"

Either "a follower of Mussolini" or "a follower of Mussolini's ideas". Here
the apostrophe in Mussolini indicates something possessed by Mussolini.

> These possessive nouns in conjunction with "of" are
> are quite confusing. Therefore, your clarifications would
> be much appreciated.
einde. ocallaghan - 24 Nov 2004 21:27 GMT
>>Hello,
>>
>>Why does one say "the book of Job" and not "the book of Job's"?
>
> The word "of" can denote possession, and an apostrope can denote possession,
> but you must choose only one for one act of possession.

This isn't strictly true. There is also the possibility of a so-called
"double possessive", e.g. "a friend of John's" - this implies that John
has more than one friend, whereas "a friend of John" and "John's friend"
has no such implication.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Raymond S. Wise - 26 Nov 2004 07:17 GMT
> >>Hello,
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

I don't understand how the number of John's friends comes into it at all. "A
friend of John's" is no more remarkable than

"a friend of mine"

"a friend of yours"

"a friend of hers"

"a friend of theirs"

In all cases, the "of" indicates the possessive, as does the form of the
following pronoun, just as in "A friend of John's" the "of" indicates the
possessive, as does the form of the following noun, "John's."

I thought for a bit about an example where such a double possessive might
actually seem odd to me. I came up with "a friend of the king of France's."
While something like "the king of France's plan" sounds fine to me, "a
friend of the king of France's" does not, and must be phrased as "a friend
of the king of France."

Another example that I came up with: "John's father's friend is here" sounds
fine, but "A friend of John's father's" does not. It should be "A friend of
John's father."

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

einde. ocallaghan - 26 Nov 2004 13:37 GMT
>>>>Hello,
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>  "a friend of mine"

One ofr my friends

>  "a friend of yours"

one of your friends

>  "a friend of hers"

One of herr friends

>  "a friend of theirs"

One of their friends

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
John Briggs - 26 Nov 2004 20:53 GMT
>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>>
> One of their friends

I'm not totally convinced by the reasoning, but here's an interesting
example.  I'm just reading an article and the caption to one of the figures
starts: "View of the southern end of St James's Street featuring the Palace
of St James."

It should be "St James's Palace", of course - "the Palace of St James" looks
completely wrong, and a Google search comfirms that it is usually
perpetrated by Americans.  Interestingly, the Royal Parks have "the Palace
of St James's".
Signature

John Briggs

Peter Duncanson - 26 Nov 2004 23:54 GMT
>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>perpetrated by Americans.  Interestingly, the Royal Parks have "the Palace
>of St James's".

St James's Palace used to be the location of the Royal Court. It is
apparently still the official headquarters of the court. This is why an
ambassador to the UK is known officially as "Ambassador to the Court of St
James". (Note the last four words.)
Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u)

John Briggs - 27 Nov 2004 00:58 GMT
>>>>>>> Hello,
>>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> an ambassador to the UK is known officially as "Ambassador to the
> Court of St James". (Note the last four words.)

"High Commissioners present letters and Ambassadors are still formally
accredited to the Court of St. James's for this reason."
http://www.royal.gov.uk/output/Page589.asp

Why are ambassadors sent to the Court of St James's?
http://www.britainusa.com/faq/showfaq.asp?SID=356

THE COURT OF ST. JAMES'S - By E. S. Turner - Hardback Book  £12.00
http://www.clarebooks.co.uk/item4694.htm

H.E. Mr. Tarald O. Brautaset, Ambassador to the Court of St. James's
http://www.norway.org.uk/NR/exeres/C5A21C6C-6921-42F0-B7C0-3B7F6DBA60E0,frameles
s.htm?NRMODE=Published

Signature

John Briggs

Mike Stevens - 27 Nov 2004 00:01 GMT
> I'm not totally convinced by the reasoning, but here's an interesting
> example.  I'm just reading an article and the caption to one of the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> is usually perpetrated by Americans.  Interestingly, the Royal Parks
> have "the Palace of St James's".

I actually prefer the Royal Parks' version.  "St James's" in this context is
not a dedication, but a place name which preceded the buiulding of the
Palace.  It was actually the dedication of the former hospital on whose site
the Palace was built.  Compare this with the proper name of one of its near
neighbours, the complex of buildings that contain the Houses of Parliament.
That is "The Palace of Westminster", never (as far as I know) "Westminster
Palace" and certainly not "Westminster's Palace". Substitute the place-name
"St James's" for the place-name "Westminster" and you have it.

--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

Old grammarians never die  -  they simple parse away
John Briggs - 27 Nov 2004 01:01 GMT
>> I'm not totally convinced by the reasoning, but here's an interesting
>> example.  I'm just reading an article and the caption to one of the
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> certainly not "Westminster's Palace". Substitute the place-name "St
> James's" for the place-name "Westminster" and you have it.

The Palace of St Stephen at Westminster?
Signature

John Briggs

Mike Stevens - 28 Nov 2004 08:25 GMT
>>> I'm not totally convinced by the reasoning, but here's an
>>> interesting example.  I'm just reading an article and the caption
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> The Palace of St Stephen at Westminster?

I don't think the whole Palace was dedicated to St Stephen.  The chapel
within the Palace had that dedication, and was also the meeting place of the
House of Commons until the fire of 1834.  The House of Lords met elsewhere
in the Palace.

--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

No man is an island.  So is Man.
John Briggs - 28 Nov 2004 13:26 GMT
>>>> I'm not totally convinced by the reasoning, but here's an
>>>> interesting example.  I'm just reading an article and the caption
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> meeting place of the House of Commons until the fire of 1834.  The
> House of Lords met elsewhere in the Palace.

The designation is found from time to time, e.g.:

"The palace of St. Stephen's" (!)

http://www.econlib.org/library/YPDBooks/Lalor/llCy649.html
Signature

John Briggs

moi - 18 Jan 2005 03:32 GMT
> The Palace of St Stephen at Westminster?

Interestingly in Welsh, when one wants to refer to the Palace of Westminster
one uses "San Steffan" (St Stephen's) - this is the standard term used by
the Welsh media, the Welsh Assembly, all public bodies etc.  If one wants to
say the UK Government one uses "Llywodraeth San Steffan" - St Stephen's
Government!

For example:

From the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/welsh/hi/newsid_3370000/newsid_3377500/3377557.stm

Welsh Local Government Association
http://www.wlga.gov.uk/cydraddoldebau/resources/WLGA-Response-w.pdf

National Assembly for Wales
http://www.cymru.gov.uk/subirichard/content/consultations/richard-commission-w.pdf
Peter Duncanson - 18 Jan 2005 11:06 GMT
>> The Palace of St Stephen at Westminster?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>say the UK Government one uses "Llywodraeth San Steffan" - St Stephen's
>Government!

I didn't know that!

It is logical though.

St Stephen's Chapel in Westminster was the first permanent home of the House
of Commons (in 1550). It, built 1292-1297 and rebuilt following a fire in
1834, is part of the Palace of Westminster (a.k.a. The Houses of
Parliament).

Factsheet G11 - The Palace of Westminster. (pdf file)
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/G11.pdf

>For example:
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>National Assembly for Wales
>http://www.cymru.gov.uk/subirichard/content/consultations/richard-commission-w.pdf

Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from a.e.u)

Raymond S. Wise - 27 Nov 2004 09:11 GMT
> >>>>Hello,
> >>>>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Regards, Einde O'Callaghan

I see where you're coming from. Nevertheless, it did not take me long to
think of an example similar to "a friend of yours" but which did not suggest
in the slightest that the person being addressed had more than one friend.

Imagine a movie in which it is made clear that all the people of a small
town know that a certain person, let's call him John Doe, has one and only
one friend, Richard Roe. If at some point during the film, one of the
townspeople were to say to John Doe, concerning Richard Roe, "You know, that
friend of yours is *really* annoying," I would not expect any member of the
movie audience to find anything unusual in the sentence, nor would I expect
it to challenge his or her belief about the truth of the previously
established status of John Doe as someone who has only one friend.

Signature

Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

einde. ocallaghan - 27 Nov 2004 14:30 GMT
>>>>>>Hello,
>>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
> it to challenge his or her belief about the truth of the previously
> established status of John Doe as someone who has only one friend.

I don't feeol this distinction with pronouns since the double possessive
 is the only possible form, i.e. "a friend of yours", but never ever "a
friend of you", whereas both "a friend of John's" and "a friend of John"
are possible.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Giles Todd - 29 Nov 2004 04:45 GMT
> I don't feeol this distinction with pronouns since the double possessive
>   is the only possible form, i.e. "a friend of yours", but never ever "a
> friend of you", whereas both "a friend of John's" and "a friend of John"
> are possible.

That rings a bell.  My three-year old daughter (being brought up in a
household where Spanish is the most spoken language, going to
playschool where only Dutch is spoken, and only speaking English with
me) uses the 'of you' formation frequently.  My guess is that she has
constructed a rule for forming such a phrase and is applying it
universally, even when it is incorrect in current English usage.

I expect that she will grow out of it and learn the common idioms,
just as the rest of us have done.

Giles.
Tojo Hoki - 25 Nov 2004 18:41 GMT
Thanks

> > Hello,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> > are quite confusing. Therefore, your clarifications would
> > be much appreciated.
bogus address - 24 Nov 2004 21:50 GMT
> Why does one say "the book of Job" and not "the book of Job's"?

They have different meanings.  The second would have to mean the
book Job owned, not the book that was written about him.

> What about "a reader of Shakespeare" and "a reader of Shakespeare's"  
> are both correct?

Again, different meanings.  The second would have to mean a reader
that Shakespeare employed.

> "A friend of John" or "a friend of John's"?

These two are synomymous.

> "A follower of Mussolini" or "a follower of Mussolini's"

Almost synonymous.  For me, the second would tend to imply that the
follower was contemporaneous with Mussolini; it implies a sort of
personal link, while the first would apply to someone who followed
Mussolini's ideology in the abstract.

> These possessive nouns in conjunction with "of" are quite confusing.
> Therefore, your clarifications would be much appreciated.

The reason they don't quite fit is that they are imitations of French
syntax - no other Germanic language goes in for them to the same
extent.  They were first made really popular by the King James Bible.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html>  food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.
Tojo Hoki - 25 Nov 2004 18:42 GMT
Thank you

> > Why does one say "the book of Job" and not "the book of Job's"?
>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html>  food intolerance data & recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 25 Nov 2004 23:30 GMT
On 25 Nov, in article
    <4b8709aa.0411251042.3134820f@posting.google.com>

> Thank you

This is your FOURTH "top-posted" reply that I've seen to responses to
your original query.

Please now study <http://web.presby.edu/~nnqadmin/nnq/nquote.html> and
learn how to post meaningfully: uk.c.l.e is one of the newsgroups where
top-posting is mostly unwelcome.  There are other groups where you will
be flamed royally for posting as you have done: please take heed.

Incidentally, it is not generally necessary nor desirable to thank each
person who has provided you with an answer.  Once sufficient answers have
been published, you may, if you wish, post a reply to ONE of them, and
thank that author "and all the others who have responded for their help"
or some such wording.

Signature

Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                     bhk@dsl.co.uk
  "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
  national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
  software and decent hardware support."

Alan Jones - 25 Nov 2004 09:03 GMT
> Hello,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> are quite confusing. Therefore, your clarifications would
> be much appreciated.

"Of" has more than one meaning. "The book of Job" is not possessive: it
means "the book about Job" or "the book entitled 'Job' ", not "the book by
Job" or  "the book belonging to Job". The form "book of Job" is very old and
traditional, going back to Latin, and would not usually be suitable for
anything but references to the Bible. However, I can imagine saying "in the
play of Hamlet" if I wanted to make it clear that I meant the complete play
and not the character. In any case, it can't be "Job's " or "Hamlet's",
because the "of" is not in any sense possessive.

The other examples depend on usage rather than meaning. To me (British
English) "a friend of John" sounds very odd; the natural form is "a friend
of John's", on the model of "one of John's friends" Yet I prefer "a reader
of Shakespeare" and "a follower of Mussolini", perhaps because the persons
are not really thought of as individual people in those expressions:
"Shakespeare" there means "the plays by Shakespeare", "Mussolini" means "the
theories and policies associated with Mussolini".

I assume that all languages have idiomatic usages not accounted for by
logic. They just have to be accepted and imitated; analysis doesn't always
help. Fortunately English is fairly flexible: if you say "a friend of John"
you will be correctly understood in Britain even if you sound very slightly
non-native.

Alan Jones
Mike Stevens - 25 Nov 2004 12:27 GMT
> The other examples depend on usage rather than meaning. To me (British
> English) "a friend of John" sounds very odd; the natural form is "a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Shakespeare", "Mussolini" means "the theories and policies associated
> with Mussolini".

While I agree with the above, I find that "a friend of John Smith" sounds
rather less stilted than "a friend of John".   But perhaps that's just my
own idiosyncracy.

--
Mike Stevens
narrowboat Felis Catus II
web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk

Old grammarians never die  -  they simple parse away
Brian {Hamilton Kelly} - 25 Nov 2004 23:26 GMT
On Thursday, in article <30m1cjF2rvd1bU1@uni-berlin.de>

> > The other examples depend on usage rather than meaning. To me (British
> > English) "a friend of John" sounds very odd; the natural form is "a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> rather less stilted than "a friend of John".   But perhaps that's just my
> own idiosyncracy.

To stretch it even further, how about "a friend of John Smith's"?  (This
relies upon most Englishmen recognizing one particular John Smith, of
course.)

:-)

Signature

Brian {Hamilton Kelly}                                     bhk@dsl.co.uk
  "I don't use Linux. I prefer to use an OS supported by a large multi-
  national vendor, with a good office suite, excellent network/internet
  software and decent hardware support."

Tojo Hoki - 25 Nov 2004 18:42 GMT
Thanks

> > Hello,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> Alan Jones
 
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