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Discussion Groups / British English / February 2005Nesh
Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term meaning "prone to feeling the cold". It was the first time I've heard it since I lived in North Staffs (1970s). A quick web search suggests it's also seen as a dialect word of Yorks, Lancs, Cheshire, Cumbria and mid Wales, though in some areas it just means soft. It's not in COD (9th) but does seem to appear in 10th, acording to a Googled comment on another NG. The only dictionary I have which mentions it is the Imperial Dictionary of 1850 which gives it as an obsolete term meaning soft, tender, nice from AS "nesc". (Not a reliable source for etymologies). Does anybody know more about its origin? I wonder if it's use is becoming more widespread - it is a genuinely useful term for which I can't think of an obvious synonym.  SignaturePhil C. >Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. >Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >becoming more widespread - it is a genuinely useful term for which I >can't think of an obvious synonym. Did I really write its and it's in the same paragraph? Obviously an imposter or a typo. I have established, though, that "nesh" didn't extend as far down as north Northants. I've never heard it Lincs and can't find it in Lincolnshire Dialects by G. Edward Campion, 1976. I think it was Lenin, by the way, who said that any author who doesn't include an index should be shot - wise words. Watch out G. Edward Campion. SignaturePhil C. | Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. | Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] | becoming more widespread - it is a genuinely useful term for which I | can't think of an obvious synonym. It is also a Yorkshire dialect word which I recognized immediately. It is in The Yorkshire Dictionary by Arnold Kellett with much the same meaning. Derivation (Old English nesc) SignatureDave F > Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. > Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > becoming more widespread - it is a genuinely useful term for which I > can't think of an obvious synonym. Definitely a dialect word from my youth, in Shropshire and one I still use occasionally. SignatureRay >> Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. >> Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Definitely a dialect word from my youth, in Shropshire and one I still use >occasionally. It was slightly pejorative in my youth in Nottingham. Nesh kids were also prone to be mardy - sulky and whining. Both words are in COD10. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >>>Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. >>>Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > It was slightly pejorative in my youth in Nottingham. Nesh kids were > also prone to be mardy - sulky and whining. Not surprising if they were feeling parky. > Both words are in COD10. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. >>>>Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >> Both words are in COD10. Nippy out, isn't it. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >>>>>Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. >>>>>Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >>> >Nippy out, isn't it. I'm pretty sure we had both nippy and parky in Essex. Partridge suggests that parky is from very late C19th and (rather disappointingly) just suggests "characteristic of a park". I suppose we can imagine someone saying "It's like a park in here" - but only just. However he also suggests it was Midland dialect for witty, smart, sharp of tongue. He also adds "cf. dial. parkin, ginger bread." I'm not sure what link he's suggesting. I'd have assumed nippy was linked to a "nip" in the air - as in "biting" cold. However, Partridge gives C19th proletarian "as white as nip" meaning "as white as snow" from dialect and the herb cat-mint, covered with a fine white down. I call cat-mint "catnip". I'd have assumed "nip" was cognate with Latin "nix" for snow(?) However http://www.superbherbs.net/catnip.htm -suggests otherwise. My assumptions don't seem to be worth much these days. SignaturePhil C. >>>>>>Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. >>>>>>Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >smart, sharp of tongue. He also adds "cf. dial. parkin, ginger bread." >I'm not sure what link he's suggesting. Nippy and parky were both in my father's "born and bred in Nottingham" dialect, although he used nippy more often. My wife seems impervious to the cold, but has admitted that the weather was parky a couple of times in a dozen years. I've never thought there was any connection between parkin and parky, or the latter meaning witty. "As sharp as houses" was one of the expressions used for people who were witty and quick. >I'd have assumed nippy was linked to a "nip" in the air - as in >"biting" cold. However, Partridge gives C19th proletarian "as white as [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >However http://www.superbherbs.net/catnip.htm >-suggests otherwise. I'd agree with your 'biting cold' which gives you a nip when you first step out of doors. >My assumptions don't seem to be worth much these days. They are beyond price, Phil. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >"As sharp as >houses" was one of the expressions used for people who were witty and >quick. I was aware of "as safe as houses". Given that houses are neither particularly sharp nor safe - and were probably even less so when the sayings were coined - I wonder if both were a bit of proletarian irony. SignaturePhil C. >>"As sharp as >>houses" was one of the expressions used for people who were witty and >>quick. > >I was aware of "as safe as houses". I must have been falling asleep when I wrote that. Of course it's "As safe as houses". I was thinking of "As sharp as a tack", a tack being one of those short, sharp, broad-headed nails used in those days for tacking new leather soles onto boots, for example. COD10 gives "drawing pin" as the AmE example, but tacks are nothing like drawing pins except in their ability to land sharp side up if you drop a bunch of them. Nearest equivalent is on http://tinyurl.com/4ywum near the bottom, and called a 'blue cut tack'. >Given that houses are neither >particularly sharp nor safe - and were probably even less so when the >sayings were coined - I wonder if both were a bit of proletarian >irony. Could be, but the Brits (including some proles) who put their money into purchasing property rather than chucking it away in rent and boozing have done quite nicely! There's a whole bunch of these sayings on http://www.saidwhat.co.uk/spoon/similes.php Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >>>"As sharp as >>>houses" was one of the expressions used for people who were witty and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >pins except in their ability to land sharp side up if you drop a bunch >of them. I agree that a thumbtack/drawing pin is not the same as, for example, a carpet tack. However, see the following entry in COD10: "thumbtack n. North American term for DRAWING PIN." Google UK yields a number of examples of thumbtack in use this side of the pond. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) >However, see the following entry in COD10: >"thumbtack n. North American term for DRAWING PIN." What's brown and tacky? SignaturePhil C. >>However, see the following entry in COD10: >>"thumbtack n. North American term for DRAWING PIN." > >What's brown and tacky? I suspect there are many politicians around the world whose skin colour and morals fit that description. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) >> However, see the following entry in COD10: >> "thumbtack n. North American term for DRAWING PIN." > > What's brown and tacky? I know this one!!! A stick? SignatureRay >>> However, see the following entry in COD10: >>> "thumbtack n. North American term for DRAWING PIN." >> >> What's brown and tacky? >I know this one!!! >A stick? Nah - a saddle. What's brown and specky? SignaturePhil C. At 19:48:15 on Sat, 22 Jan 2005, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> wrote in <bcb5v0p2dn7mu5kgm01ct5n2eun8q3sqq6@4ax.com>: >>>> However, see the following entry in COD10: >>>> "thumbtack n. North American term for DRAWING PIN." [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Nah - a saddle. What's brown and specky? Me, when I've been on holiday without contact lenses. SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >At 19:48:15 on Sat, 22 Jan 2005, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> >wrote in <bcb5v0p2dn7mu5kgm01ct5n2eun8q3sqq6@4ax.com>: >>>> What's brown and tacky? >>>I know this one!!! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Me, when I've been on holiday without contact lenses. Nah - that bloke off the Halifax ads. You're not even trying. What's brown and stocky? An Oxo cube. See? One last chance. What's brown and sticky and came to fame in the 1970s? SignaturePhil C. >>At 19:48:15 on Sat, 22 Jan 2005, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> >>wrote in <bcb5v0p2dn7mu5kgm01ct5n2eun8q3sqq6@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > brown and stocky? An Oxo cube. See? One last chance. What's brown and > sticky and came to fame in the 1970s? Mud SignatureDave Clarke >>>At 19:48:15 on Sat, 22 Jan 2005, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> >>>wrote in <bcb5v0p2dn7mu5kgm01ct5n2eun8q3sqq6@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Mud Good try but no cigar. It's Skid Viscous. SignaturePhil C. >>>> However, see the following entry in COD10: >>>> "thumbtack n. North American term for DRAWING PIN." [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Nah - a saddle. What's brown and specky? This one's obvious. It's a daguerreotype of M$'s next operating system. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >>>>"As sharp as >>>>houses" was one of the expressions used for people who were witty and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >However, see the following entry in COD10: >"thumbtack n. North American term for DRAWING PIN." But see the COD10 entry: tack1 · n. 1 a small, sharp broad-headed nail. Ø N. Amer. a drawing pin. I don't think one could describe a drawing pin in BrE as a 'tack'. 'Thumbtack' is an AmE word. >Google UK yields a number of examples of thumbtack in use this side of the >pond. Of that I have no doubt. AmE has been part of our staple diet for decades. <g> Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >>>>>"As sharp as >>>>>houses" was one of the expressions used for people who were witty and [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >Of that I have no doubt. AmE has been part of our staple diet for >decades. <g> Hard tack? SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) On Saturday, in article <qkn5v09o8t5bgrg7rvlt8865ft0fmhd35s@4ax.com> > >>Google UK yields a number of examples of thumbtack in use this side of the > >>pond. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Hard tack? Now THAT takes the biscuit. SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte." Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 >>>>>"As sharp as >>>>>houses" was one of the expressions used for people who were witty and [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Of that I have no doubt. AmE has been part of our staple diet for > decades. <g> I can remember using both "drawing pin" and "thumbtack" to describe the same object in Ireland during the 1950s and 1960s. This was quite different from the kind of tack we used to keep the carpet attached to the floor. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >>>>>>"As sharp as >>>>>>houses" was one of the expressions used for people who were witty and [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >different from the kind of tack we used to keep the carpet attached to >the floor. To me a tack is for a temporary fixing, where temporary can be from minutes to months, or longer. It is expected to be removed, and possibly reused. This is obvious in the case of a drawing pin or thumbtack. These are designed for repeated use. Leather soles on boots and carpets on floors are expected to be replaced at some time. Hence the the use of removable tacks. In needlework a tack is a long temporary stitch used to hold two pieces of cloth together prior to sewing them. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) >>>>On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:23:21 +0000, Robin Bignall >>>><docrobin@ntlworld.com> [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > In needlework a tack is a long temporary stitch used to hold two pieces of > cloth together prior to sewing them. Also a temporary weld. Si Nicholls >>Nippy out, isn't it. > >I'd have assumed nippy was linked to a "nip" in the air - as in >"biting" cold. However, Partridge gives C19th proletarian "as white as I'd always associated it with ...when icicles hang by the wall...and milk comes frozen home in pail, when blood is nipped and ways be foul then nightly sings the staring owl and all that. Katy >>>>>Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. >>>>>Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >>> >Nippy out, isn't it. So nippy I'm foundered. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) >>> Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. >>> Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >also prone to be mardy - sulky and whining. >Both words are in COD10. "Mardy" was also used in N. Staffs. A baby who wasn't mardy was described as "pleasant". Hardly a dialect word, but it was a very specific usage. My son was frequently described as a "pleasant baby". SignaturePhil C. > >It was slightly pejorative in my youth in Nottingham. Nesh kids were > >also prone to be mardy - sulky and whining. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > described as "pleasant". Hardly a dialect word, but it was a very > specific usage. My son was frequently described as a "pleasant baby". "Mardy" was often in use in Leicester in the 1960s ("mardy-arse" was a common primary school playground insult). I don't remember hearing "nesh" until much later when I was living further north, though. Giles. SignatureJust don't ask, OK? You won't like me when I sulk. >"Mardy" was often in use in Leicester in the 1960s ("mardy-arse" was a >common primary school playground insult). I don't remember hearing >"nesh" until much later when I was living further north, though. "Mardy" was also common in Northants. SignaturePhil C. >Definitely a dialect word from my youth, in Shropshire and one I still use >occasionally. It's a normal part of my vocabulary (London, but my parents came from Yorkshire). Katy > Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. > Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term > meaning "prone to feeling the cold". It was the first time I've heard > it since I lived in North Staffs (1970s). A quick web search suggests > it's also seen as a dialect word of Yorks, Lancs, Cheshire, Cumbria > and mid Wales, though in some areas it just means soft. > It's not in COD (9th) but does seem to appear in 10th, acording to a > Googled comment on another NG. The only dictionary I have which > mentions it is the Imperial Dictionary of 1850 which gives it as an > obsolete term meaning soft, tender, nice from AS "nesc". (Not a > reliable source for etymologies). > Does anybody know more about its origin? I wonder if it's use is > becoming more widespread - it is a genuinely useful term for which I > can't think of an obvious synonym. According to the big one, it's from OE nescian and connected to modern Flemish, neschen, to wet. Earliest reference provided c. 897., latest 1471. Three meanings given. 1. intr. to become soft, obs.; 2. trans. to make soft, obs.; 3. dial. with it. to turn faint-hearted (to funk it). Also Neshhead, Neshly & Neshness. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0z02-0.htm High Force The Northern boundary of old Yorkshire >> Today I heard the word "nesh" used by an East Midlands (i.e. >> Nottingham) regional news presenter as a mildly pejorative term [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >Also Neshhead, Neshly & Neshness. Thanks. Did its use an adjective elude them? I wonder if it survived for centuries without being written down or if it's a more modern re-introduction to various dialects with a more specific meaning. The areas where its found don't seem to match OE dialect areas - a mixture of some Mercian and some Northumbrian(?) SignaturePhil C. > Thanks. Did its use an adjective elude them? No. Viz (citations omitted): Forms: a. 1 hnesce, (hnysce, hnisce; nesc, næsc), 2 nexce, neche, 35 nesche, nesshe, 4 ness(ss)e, 45 nessche, 56 neshe; 45 nesch, ness(h, 5 nesh. b. 3 neys(se, 4 5 neische, -sshe, neysshe, (5 -ssche, neyshe), 4 neisch, -ssh, 5 neysch(e, naysch(e, 9 dial. naish, U.S. dial. nish. c. 5 nassh(e, 6 Sc. nasche, 7, 9 nash, 8 gnash. [OE. hnesce, = Du. (16th c.) nesch, nisch soft (of eggs), damp, sodden, foolish, Goth. hnasqus soft, tender; the ultimate etym. is unknown.] 1. a. Soft in texture or consistency; yielding easily to pressure or force; in later use esp. tender, succulent, juicy. b. transf. Not harsh or violent. Obs. rare. c. Damp, moist, wet. rare. 2. a. Slack, negligent; lacking in energy or diligence. b. Timid; wanting in courage; faint-hearted. 3. a. Tender, mild, gentle, kind; inclined to pity, mercy, or other tender feelings. Obs. b. Easily yielding to temptation; inclined to lust or wantonness. Obs. 4. a. Tender, delicate, weak; unable to endure fatigue or exposure; susceptible to cold. The most prevalent sense in mod. dialect use. b. Dainty, fastidious, squeamish. 5. absol. (usually in conjunction with hard.) a. That which is soft; soft ground; also pl. of persons (quot. c1330). Obs. b. Mild or gentle treatment. Obs. c. in nesh and hard, etc., under all or any circumstances. Obs. d. So for nesh or hard, etc. Obs. 6. adv. Softly, gently, tenderly. Obs. rare. Giles. > > Thanks. Did its use an adjective elude them? > No. Viz (citations omitted): [Snip] Oops! Mea culpa. I've got the two volume Compact Edition (4 pages reduced per page) and my sight isn't as good as it used to be (when I bought it in the early 70s, I hardly ever required the magnifying glass provided); I saw the verb entry on page 98 and totally failed to see the preceding adjectival and adverbial entries beginning on page 97. I could offer in mitigation the Anglo-Saxon (OE) references from Bosworth & Toller but as they're generally the same meanings as provided by Giles from the OED, there's not much point. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ -- Dacha's Digital Domicile "Americans . . ." muttered Otto, "softly dropping their turds wherever they go." ~ Paula Fox: Desperate Characters. |
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