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Discussion Groups / British English / January 2005Informations about William Blake?
Hello to everybody! I just studied William Blake at school in English Literature (I'm an Italian student) and then I listened a song written by Loreena McKennitt called Lullaby and I discovered that the words are taken from a Blake poem. I think that its name is Lullaby, like the song, but I'm not sure of this. I searched in the web other informations about this poem, I found the site http://www.blakearchive.org.uk/main.html, but in the archive I didn't found anything about the poem I'm searching. I'm writing to you its first lines: O for a voice like thunder, and a tongue To drown the throat of war! - When the senses Are shaken, and the soul is driven to madness, Who can stand? When the souls of the oppressed I would know the book, or the collection of poems to which it belongs. And, if it's possibile, I would like to find an Italian poetic traduction of this "Lullaby", if I can call it in this way. Is there anyone who can help me? Thank you anyway! Rocky3 >Hello to everybody! >I just studied William Blake at school in English Literature (I'm an [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Are shaken, and the soul is driven to madness, >Who can stand? When the souls of the oppressed I have found this in "Poetry and Prose of William Blake, edited by Geoffrey Keynes, The Nonesuch Library, London, 1956" (first published by The Nonesuch Press August 1927). It is in a section titled "Poetical Sketches" (originally printed 1783). The heading of the poem is "Prologue, intended for a dramatic piece of King Edward the Fourth". >I would know the book, or the collection of poems to which it belongs. And, >if it's possibile, I would like to find an Italian poetic traduction of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Rocky3  SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) Il Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:39:20 +0000, Peter Duncanson ha scritto: > It is in a section titled "Poetical Sketches" (originally printed 1783). Yes, thank you! In my text-book I saw it as one of the first collection written by Blake. > The heading of the poem is "Prologue, intended for a dramatic piece of King > Edward the Fourth". Perfect, thank you very much! Now... I hope not to ask too much questions, but could you suggest me some possible interpretations of this poem? What does Blake mean with it? I particularly can't understand the last line: "Hear it not, Heaven, thy Ministers have done it", and the first words: "O for a voice like thunder"... Could you help me again? Thank you anyway! Rocky3 >Il Sat, 29 Jan 2005 18:39:20 +0000, Peter Duncanson ha scritto: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Could you help me again? >Thank you anyway! I am not an expert on the meaning of Blake's work. However, I will read this piece tomorrow, and attempt to understand it. If no one else has explained it in the next 24 hours, I'll see what I can do. SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) At 22:05:28 on Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in <bv1ov01d7o9h61m9kt9na2v3ufifbqskq3@4ax.com>: >>I particularly can't >>understand the last line: "Hear it not, Heaven, thy Ministers have done [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >If no one else has explained it in the next 24 hours, I'll see what I can >do. I don't know the poem either, so can't help with the last line (which must depend on what has gone before), but "O for a voice like thunder" means "I wish I had a voice as loud as thunder (so that everyone could hear what I say)". SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 22:05:28 on Sat, 29 Jan 2005, Peter Duncanson > <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > means "I wish I had a voice as loud as thunder (so that everyone could > hear what I say)". Oh, for a voice like thunder, and a tongue To drown the throat of war ! When the senses Are shaken, and the soul is driven to madness, Who can stand ? When the souls of the oppressed Fight in the troubled air that rages, who can stand ? When the whirlwind of fury comes from the Throne of God, when the frowns of his countenance Drive the nations together, who can stand ? When sin claps his broad wings over the battle, And sails rejoicing in the flood of death; When souls are torn to everlasting fire, And fiends of hell rejoice upon the slain, Oh, who can stand? Oh, who hath caused this ? Oh, who can answer at the throne of God ? The kings and nobles of the land have done it ! Hear it not, Heaven, thy ministers have done it ! SignatureJohn Briggs Il Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:14:26 +0000, Molly Mockford ha scritto: > I don't know the poem either, so can't help with the last line (which > must depend on what has gone before), but "O for a voice like thunder" > means "I wish I had a voice as loud as thunder (so that everyone could > hear what I say)". John Briggs had just posted it in the integral version. But... thank you for explaining me the first line! If you can, I'm waiting for you to understand also the last line. Thank you very much anyway! And sorry for my bad English, but I'm an Italian student! Rocky3 > Il Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:14:26 +0000, Molly Mockford ha scritto: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you for explaining me the first line! If you can, I'm waiting for you > to understand also the last line. I'm far from being an expert on Blake (and rather distrust anyone who claims to be - Blake deliberately writes for much of the time in coded references. many of them obscure). But one thing about him is clear: he was very anti-clerical. So I take the last line of this piece to say that organised religion must take a share of the blame for the evils he describes. But, as so often with Blake, there are probably plenty of equally valid readings of it. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. >> Il Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:14:26 +0000, Molly Mockford ha scritto: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > often with Blake, there are probably plenty of equally valid readings > of it. Maybe, but the "ministers" could also refer to the "kings and nobles" of the previous line. The context is surely a play about the Wars of the Roses. (While Googling, I came across a speech where this poem was quoted in connection with the 9/11 attacks. For some reason, the last two lines weren't used :-) ) SignatureJohn Briggs Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:25:40 GMT, John Briggs ha scritto: > Maybe, but the "ministers" could also refer to the "kings and nobles" of the > previous line. The context is surely a play about the Wars of the Roses. But he says "Heaven, thy (that means obviously "your") Ministers have done it", so... I think he refers to the Ministers of the Heaven. Anyway, as I wrote in the last post, I can't understand the first words of this last line: "Hear it not, Heaven". How can I understand it? What does Blake means with "Hear it not"? Maybe, by understanding these words, we can also interpret all the line. Thank you very much anyway! Rocky3 > Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 13:25:40 GMT, John Briggs ha scritto: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > interpret all the line. > Thank you very much anyway! "Do not hear it" (netgative imperative) - in earlier times the auxiliary "do" wasn't always used. This usage is more common in poetry and is still occasionally used even in modern poetry. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 15:01:26 +0100, einde. ocallaghan ha scritto: > "Do not hear it" (netgative imperative) - in earlier times the auxiliary > "do" wasn't always used. This usage is more common in poetry and is > still occasionally used even in modern poetry. Perfect! Thank you very much!! Now I think I can understand the whole passage. Rocky3 >>> Il Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:14:26 +0000, Molly Mockford ha scritto: >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Maybe, but the "ministers" could also refer to the "kings and nobles" > of the previous line. Unlikely, I think. The line is "Hear it not, Heaven, thy ministers have done it !", which, to my mind clearly says that it is Heaven's ministers Blake is talking about here. > The context is surely a play about the Wars of > the Roses. In which plenty of Bishops lead armies. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 14:21:53 -0000, Mike Stevens ha scritto: > Unlikely, I think. The line is "Hear it not, Heaven, thy ministers have > done it !", which, to my mind clearly says that it is Heaven's ministers [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > In which plenty of Bishops lead armies. Thank you for all your informations, this interpretation is perfectly consistent. Rocky3 Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:13:52 -0000, Mike Stevens ha scritto: > I'm far from being an expert on Blake (and rather distrust anyone who claims > to be - Blake deliberately writes for much of the time in coded > references. many of them obscure). Ok. Yes, infact our teacher had explained us that Blake mainly uses symbols and obscure corrispondances. > But one thing about him is clear: he was very anti-clerical. I think I didn't know it. This is a possible interpretation. > So I take the > last line of this piece to say that organised religion must take a share of > the blame for the evils he describes. In fact he says: "Heaven, your Ministers have done it". Right! But I can't understand the first words of the same line: "Hear it not, Heaven". What is their meaning? In particular, I can't understand what he means with "hear it not"... Could you explain me? Thank you anyway for your support :-). Rocky3 >Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:13:52 -0000, Mike Stevens ha scritto: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >it not"... Could you explain me? >Thank you anyway for your support :-). Einde has translated that to "Do not hear it". I'd go further, and interpret it as "Do not listen, God (Heaven). Your Ministers (of the church) support and encourage (the evils of) war just as much as kings and nobles do". Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >>Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:13:52 -0000, Mike Stevens ha scritto: >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > church) support and encourage (the evils of) war just as much as kings > and nobles do". I would agree with your interpretation. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >> Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 01:13:52 -0000, Mike Stevens ha scritto: >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > church) support and encourage (the evils of) war just as much as kings > and nobles do". Except that "thy Ministers" could also mean "your angels". Don't forget "When the whirlwind of fury comes from the / Throne of God, when the frowns of his countenance / Drive the nations together, who can stand ?" SignatureJohn Briggs Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:21:08 GMT, John Briggs ha scritto: > Except that "thy Ministers" could also mean "your angels". Don't forget > "When the whirlwind of fury comes from the / Throne of God, when the frowns > of his countenance / Drive the nations together, who can stand ?" Yes, but I think it could be a too much forced interpretation. How can the angels cause violence and wars? I prefer the Robin Bignall interpretation, in my opinion. Rocky3 >Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:21:08 GMT, John Briggs ha scritto: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >angels cause violence and wars? >I prefer the Robin Bignall interpretation, in my opinion. Not so fast, Rocky. John has a very good point. Not all angels are good. Isn't Satan a fallen angel, the leader of the other fallen angels? I am not a believer, so my knowledge of such matters ends there. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England >>Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:21:08 GMT, John Briggs ha scritto: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > angels? I am not a believer, so my knowledge of such matters ends > there. I don't think this is the case. The "fiends of hell" have already been mentioned and there is no way that Satan & Co, can be described as "thy ministers". Regards, Einde o'callaghan >>>Il Sun, 30 Jan 2005 16:21:08 GMT, John Briggs ha scritto: >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >mentioned and there is no way that Satan & Co, can be described as "thy >ministers". You're right, of course. I took a look at a couple of sites on Blake, and one of his main motivations was his belief in freeing the soul from *organised* religion. Signaturewrmst rgrds Robin Bignall Hertfordshire England Il Mon, 31 Jan 2005 13:25:50 +0000, Robin Bignall ha scritto: >>I don't think this is the case. The "fiends of hell" have already been >>mentioned and there is no way that Satan & Co, can be described as "thy >>ministers". I agree with him, because if Blake wanted to consider the devils as Ministers of Heaven, he wouldn't mention the "fiends of Hell" some lines above the last one. He would define all the angels (and the devils) as a unique genre, instead he make a difference between the two categories. > You're right, of course. I took a look at a couple of sites on Blake, > and one of his main motivations was his belief in freeing the soul > from *organised* religion. This is the key which let us to interpret the whole poem, and in particular the last line. Blake believes in God, but not in the Church and in the religion built by the man. Rocky3 Il Sat, 29 Jan 2005 22:05:28 +0000, Peter Duncanson ha scritto: > If no one else has explained it in the next 24 hours, I'll see what I can > do. Thank you anyway! > Hello to everybody! > I just studied William Blake at school in English Literature (I'm an [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Is there anyone who can help me? > Thank you anyway! It's called 'Prologue, intended for a Dramatic Piece of King Edward the Fourth', from "Poetical Sketches" (1783) - his first book of poetry. SignatureJohn Briggs |
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