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Discussion Groups / British English / May 2005'You' instead of 'one' in scientific assay
Hallo, spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice I was given here). Some students use phrases 'You can see', 'you may notice' etc instead of the - in my opinion more appropriate 'one can see', 'one notices' etc. Although I appreciate that 'one' is not commonly used in spoken language (at least not by my students), I would expect to find it in written language, especially in an (mock) exam paper. What do you think? Best wishes, Gunter > Hallo, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > What do you think? No. While as you say it is more correct than 'you' not many people use it as it has certain snobbish connotations for many. There is also the fact that when it is used, it is frequently used wrongly, Princess Anne is particularly prone to saying "one fell of one's horse" when she means "I fell off my horse". > No. While as you say it is more correct than 'you' not many people use > it as it has certain snobbish connotations for many. Even in a clearly formal context? In most scientific talks I've heard so far, 'one' was used instead of 'you'; however, these were mainly older people or foreigners (i.e. non native speakers). > There is also the fact that when it is used, it is frequently used > wrongly, Princess Anne is particularly prone to saying "one fell of > one's horse" when she means "I fell off my horse". But this is a completely different situation, isn't it? Best wishes, Gunter >> No. While as you say it is more correct than 'you' not many people >> use it as it has certain snobbish connotations for many. > > Even in a clearly formal context? In most scientific talks I've heard > so far, 'one' was used instead of 'you'; however, these were mainly > older people or foreigners (i.e. non native speakers). I would never have used it when I lived in Britain, which I did until the age of 25, except for effect but having now lived in France for an even longer time, where 'on' is frequent and used correctly most of the time, I have adopted it in English too. Well 'one' anyway. >> There is also the fact that when it is used, it is frequently used >> wrongly, Princess Anne is particularly prone to saying "one fell of >> one's horse" when she means "I fell off my horse". > > But this is a completely different situation, isn't it? I meant it as one of the reasons why average English people avoid it, they don't seem to be quite sure what it means or when to use it. I'm doing my best to educate them ;-) >>> There is also the fact that when it is used, it is frequently used >>> wrongly, Princess Anne is particularly prone to saying "one fell of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they don't seem to be quite sure what it means or when to use it. I'm > doing my best to educate them ;-) So do you think I should point this out to my students (after all, they will have to write essays for next few years), or do you think I should rather keep it to myself (they are the native speakers; my experience with the English language is rather limited). Best wishes, Gunter >>>> There is also the fact that when it is used, it is frequently used >>>> wrongly, Princess Anne is particularly prone to saying "one fell of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > should rather keep it to myself (they are the native speakers; my > experience with the English language is rather limited). You could perhaps approach it in a different way, by asking them why they use 'you' rather than 'one' adding that to you it seems wrong and that some stiffy old examiners might not like it. I think I agree with you though, if the paper important and serious then it should be 'one' and not 'you' and that is what they should learn to use. >I think I agree with >you though, if the paper important and serious then it should be 'one' >and not 'you' and that is what they should learn to use. Scientific papers have traditionally avoided the problem by using the passive voice, for example: "It can be seen that..." However that does make for rather heavy reading.  SignatureJohn Hall "Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people from coughing." Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83) "Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people from coughing." Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83) Which is not to be sneezed at :-) SignatureJohn Briggs > "Acting is merely the art of keeping a large group of people > from coughing." > Sir Ralph Richardson (1902-83) > >Which is not to be sneezed at :-) Whereas snooker is the art of encouraging a large group of people to cough. SignaturePhil C. >> I think I agree with >> you though, if the paper important and serious then it should be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > passive voice, for example: "It can be seen that..." However that does > make for rather heavy reading. Ah yes, that's true enough. > spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came > across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > What do you think? Both of the last two editions of Fowler raise objections to the mixture of generic 'one' with generic 'you' within a text. But generic 'you' clearly exists and seems nowadays to be the more common form. I wouldn't mark anyone down for using it in writing, particularly when used consistently. French ('on') and German ('man') still use a distinct generic pronoun, but in Dutch ('men') and English ('one') this pronoun seems to be disappearing from common (as opposed to incorrect) use. (Anyway, science students can't speak English, let alone write it.) Giles SignatureRunning away as fast as his little stubby legs can carry him. > Both of the last two editions of Fowler raise objections to the > mixture of generic 'one' with generic 'you' within a text. But > generic 'you' clearly exists and seems nowadays to be the more common > form. I wouldn't mark anyone down for using it in writing, > particularly when used consistently. I wouldn't mark them down (I'm anyaway just their supervisor), but I'd like to help them to write acceptable essays in their exam. > (Anyway, science students can't speak English, let alone write it.) It's not limted to students, unfortuntatelt. But Wouldn't it be nice if this would change? Gunter >> Both of the last two editions of Fowler raise objections to the >> mixture of generic 'one' with generic 'you' within a text. But [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >It's not limted to students, unfortuntatelt. But Wouldn't it be nice if >this would change? I'd think that you're probably right to advise your students to avoid generic "you". An accomplished writer could happily use it because the reader would know that he/she is doing so deliberately. Students may not give that impression. As has been said, the passive voice is commonly used to avoid the problem in the most formal writing. It can sound rather stilted if overused (though not as bad as overused "one" which becomes ludicrous) but that may not be a problem in the exam setting. SignaturePhil C. >> spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came >> across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >(Anyway, science students can't speak English, let alone write it.) Away from science, gentle reader, some writers have always maintained the pretence of talking to the reader individually so perhaps we have to include a "sort-of-generic you" in our list of options. I always thought, BTW, that the famous line "Reader I married him" in Jane Eyre was a bit weak. "Reader I shagged him" would have had more dramatic effect. No? Just me then. We've also got a generic "we" which seems to be used in science lectures (and above). "Thus we see that..." I don't know if it's ever used in formal scientific writing. SignaturePhil C. > >> spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came > >> across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > lectures (and above). "Thus we see that..." I don't know if it's ever > used in formal scientific writing. In scientific publications the usage is quite clear: "you" is NEVER used, "we" only if general truths are discussed, which can be checked by everyone, and "one" together with passive voice are both used equally. Usually the form "one" is prefered in journals that set a length limit, since passive voice takes more space. I cannot say to what extend these rules apply to everyday language, let alone to highschool essays. Cheers Sas >>>>spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came >>>>across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > form "one" is prefered in journals that set a length limit, since passive > voice takes more space. Can you cite a source for your very precise and definitive statement of the "rules"? Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > >>>>spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came > >>>>across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > Can you cite a source for your very precise and definitive statement of > the "rules"? Just take a look at any scientific paper from the American Physical Society, or ask anyone who ever has refereed any. I am not suggesting that this is the most correct english, but it is definitely common practice when it comes to research papers. > Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >>>>>>spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came >>>>>>across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > I am not suggesting that this is the most correct english, but it is > definitely common practice when it comes to research papers. Thank you for your reply. My memory from my brief period of studying science at university in the dim and distant past is that the preferred impersonal structure was the passive and not "one". But perhaps styles have changed. It doesn't seem to have penetrated any of teh style/usage books that I've used over the years as a teacher of English as a foreign language. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > >>>>>>spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came > >>>>>>across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > books that I've used over the years as a teacher of English as a foreign > language. Many journals (especially letters) offer a limited space for each article, usually four pages. Authors usually try to accomodate as many data as possible in these four pages, and believe me sometimes a couple of lines can make the difference between getting an article published or not!!! I have to admit, that those articles do not always provide the best linguistic examples. I simply state what is common usage. Most authors are not native speakers, and perhaps it is simply a tranfer from the german form "man", or the french "on". English has become the international science language after all. Nowadays even russian journals publish in english. Italian, and german ones have been doing so for years, only french resist... In any case, it is really very often to be read. When it comes to review articles, where space is no issue, then the passive form appears more often I guess. I haven't carried out any statistics however... And of course I repeat, that my experience (being a physicist at a university) is connected to physical sciences only, and certainly not linguistics or litterature. Regards Sas > Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > In scientific publications the usage is quite clear: "you" is NEVER > used, "we" only if general truths are discussed, which can be checked [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I cannot say to what extend these rules apply to everyday language, > let alone to highschool essays. I think that the usage has changed a lot in my life-time. When I was studying Physics & Chemistry at A-level, over 40 years ago, we were taught to write all our lab reports in the passive voice. "The liquid was put in the beaker....." Nowadays I believe there is a difference between what is taught at school level and what is practised elsewhere. Certainly the last time I worked in a school, the accepted form at that level was a straightforward past-tense narrative "We put the liquid in the beaker....." -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. > Hallo, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > What do you think? I was always taught to use the passive for this sort of thing. Not "you can see" or even "one" but "it can be seen that..." However, modern day thinking is that it sounds rather stilted. >spending a sunny bank holiday Monday indoors marking essays, I came >across a wording which surprises me a bit (especially after some advice [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >language, especially in an (mock) exam paper. >What do you think? In the context of formal essays, more so with scientific ones, it's more common to read: "It" may be seen | noted, ... "There" may be seen ... also using nouns for "it" and "there" to avoid repetition. Wouldn't mark down in a mock but would certainly underline and provide alternatives for preferred usage to illustrate why "you" will detract from the overall tenor of the paper. Signaturepaul (C) © 2005 is mine |
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