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Discussion Groups / British English / June 2005holiday/holidays/vacation
Hello. Could anyone please explain to me the difference in usage of "holiday" / "holidays"? And am I right that the word "vacation" is the American equivalent of British "holiday(s)"? Thank you! Arthur At 21:05:50 on Sun, 19 Jun 2005, Arthur <plc@postmark.net> wrote in <emjte.3116$kP3.130@fe65.usenetserver.com>: >Could anyone please explain to me the difference in usage of "holiday" >/ "holidays"? >And am I right that the word "vacation" is the American equivalent of >British "holiday(s)"? Yes, and the Americans say "holidays" where in the UK we say "Christmas".  SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > Hello. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > British "holiday(s)"? > Thank you! In British English, people go "on holiday" when referring to a time of recreation away from home, and this is indeed what the Americans call going "on vacation". "Holidays" (plural) is usually used to refer to periods of time, such as the school holidays. I think in US English, "holidays" is most frequently used to refer to the Christmas season (possibly including Thankgiving?), where people will say "Happy Holidays" as a secular alternative to "Happy Christmas". In British English, you could also ask "how many holidays did you have last year?", to which an answer might be "two: skiing in January and sailing in July", for example. I believe that the singular "holiday" in US English usually means a public holiday, which in British English is called a "bank holiday", i.e. a day when most businesses are closed. Cheers Tony SignatureTony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org | I believe that the singular "holiday" in US English usually means | a public holiday, which in British English is called a "bank holiday", | i.e. a day when most businesses are closed. Except the Supermarkets which open 1000 to 1600 hrs. SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. > | I believe that the singular "holiday" in US English usually means > | a public holiday, which in British English is called a "bank holiday", > | i.e. a day when most businesses are closed. > > Except the Supermarkets which open 1000 to 1600 hrs. Oh dear, oh dear...... And.... I always told my students something like the following to explain the "bank holidays': The banks close on certain weekends, so the shops close because thay can't / couldn't take their money to the bank at the end of the day, so... the supermarkets close etc... A kind of chain reaction.... I was wrong.... thank you for your explanation! Arthur > > | I believe that the singular "holiday" in US English usually means > > | a public holiday, which in British English is called a "bank holiday", [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > so... the supermarkets close etc... A kind of chain reaction.... > I was wrong.... thank you for your explanation! I think your explanation was correct in the 1960s but they times, they are a-changing. You may like to visit http://www.dti.gov.uk/er/bankhol.htm which outlines some of the idiosyncratic ways in which bank holidays are determined. > | I believe that the singular "holiday" in US English usually means > | a public holiday, which in British English is called a "bank holiday", > | i.e. a day when most businesses are closed. > Except the Supermarkets which open 1000 to 1600 hrs. There is still a law, a remnant of the old Sunday Trading Law which banned certain business altogether on Sundays, which says that large retail stores may only open for 6 hours on a Sunday. The six hours chosen tend to be 1000 to 1600 or 1000 to 1700. The same law does not apply to Bank Holidays, however. Where I am (London) it seems to be increasingly common that supermarkets and the like remain open on Bank Holidays for as long as they would on any other weekday. Matthew Huntbach On Monday, in article <Pine.LNX.4.61.0506200919290.27769@frank.dcs.qmul.ac.uk> > > Except the Supermarkets which open 1000 to 1600 hrs. > > There is still a law, a remnant of the old Sunday Trading Law which > banned certain business altogether on Sundays, which says that Errm, that's the *new* Sunday Trading Act (passed in 1994) which got rid of all the anomalies with the old piecemeal legislation which applied to shopping on Sundays. > large retail stores may only open for 6 hours on a Sunday. The Large meaning "of greater than 6000 sq ft trading area". > six hours chosen tend to be 1000 to 1600 or 1000 to 1700. ITYM 1100--1700. > The same law does not apply to Bank Holidays, however. Where I > am (London) it seems to be increasingly common that supermarkets > and the like remain open on Bank Holidays for as long as they would on > any other weekday. Indeed; it's only the old-style retailers (and the banks, and anything public-service, such as libraries) that close on Bank Holidays. After all, it makes a lot of sense to provide a catchment mechanism for all the wealth in the plastic of those whose employer has given a day off. The only time when a retailer MUST shut up shop entirely is on Easter Day itself (and even then small shopkeepers are exempt). SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte." Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 | Indeed; it's only the old-style retailers (and the banks, and anything | public-service, such as libraries) that close on Bank Holidays. | | After all, it makes a lot of sense to provide a catchment mechanism for | all the wealth in the plastic of those whose employer has given a day | off. That is a *very* modern view of holidays, which has only been applicable for 50, 100 or at the most 200 years. The word was originally Holy Day when the Church decreed that: According to the Bible one worked for 6 days and had the seventh for rest. There were also many Saints days and other Feast days which were Holy, and so one did not work. This makes seine because he peasants needed time to attend church, tend the gardens look after the pig, and other. Train at archery. etc. and generally have a rest, SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. > Hamilton > Kelly}) wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > That is a *very* modern view of holidays, which has only been applicable > for 50, 100 or at the most 200 years. Come off it, wakes weeks- people saved 51 weeks of the year to blue the lot in a week at Blackpool for the mill girls, the Isle of Man for the office clerks. That was a hundred and more years ago. 50 years ago was 1955, many people even had horseless carriages by then. 200 years isn't modern- the possibilities of travel didn't exist before the railway network- think Thomas Cook. The 'modern' holiday has really taken the place of the fairs, which were nothing if not commercial. Paul Burke | > Hamilton | > Kelly}) wrote: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | > That is a *very* modern view of holidays, which has only been applicable | > for 50, 100 or at the most 200 years. Sorry that should have been 300 years. | Come off it, wakes weeks- people saved 51 weeks of the year to blue the | lot in a week at Blackpool for the mill girls, the Isle of Man for the | office clerks. That was a hundred and more years ago. 50 years ago was | 1955, many people even had horseless carriages by then. 200 years isn't | modern- the possibilities of travel didn't exist before the railway | network- think Thomas Cook. Where I came from I remember two wakes weeks one for the Engineers and one for the Woolen mills. Wakes Weeks are a relatively modern invention, which only make sense after introduction of the Factory system by Arkwright in 1771 at Cromford Mill. http://www.thepeakdistrict.info/fast/html/cromford_mill.html | The 'modern' holiday has really taken the place of the fairs, which were | nothing if not commercial. Fairs were, and still are in country areas classed a _work_ by the farmers, because they buy/bought livestock and other work necessities at fairs. The other things were incidental. Well, when not at home, one must drink and eat, and chat to others about work. :-) Only this year I bought some agricultural 2 ft long Cable Ties at Masham at what is left of a fair. SOED lists an Anglo Saxon derivation for Holy Day. For Holiday it has Old English and Middle English derivations. It also gives usages for 1440, and 1526. It also references each form to the other. SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. > Wakes Weeks are a relatively modern invention, which only make sense after > introduction of the Factory system by Arkwright in 1771 at Cromford Mill. > http://www.thepeakdistrict.info/fast/html/cromford_mill.html Of course that's true, but as I was saying, anything before mass transport was another world. Holidaying, in the sense of 'having time off', was less tied to holy days after the Reformation(s). They were virtually abolished during the Commonwealth period, and only restored afterwards in a fairly attenuated form. That didn't stop people wanting time off- if they could get it: I've waited longing for today: Spindle, bobbin, and spool, away! In joy and bliss I'm off to play Upon this high holiday. Spindle, bobbin, and spool, away, For joy that it's a holiday! The dirt upon the floor's unswept, The fireplace isn't cleaned and kept, I haven't cut the rushes yet Upon this high holiday. Spindle, bobbin, etc. The cooking herbs I must fetch in, And fix my kerchief under my chin. Darling Jack, lend me a pin To fix me well this holiday! Spindle, bobbin, etc. Now midday has almost come, And all my chores are still not done I'll clean my shoes till they become Bright for a high holiday. Spindle, bobbin, etc. In pails the milk has got to go; I ought to spread this bowl of dough - It clogs my nails and fingers so As I knead this holiday! Spindle, bobbin, etc. Handweavers and many other skilled artisans were condemned during the period of their prosperity for taking time off when they felt like it- to the millowners, one of the advantages of the new systemn was that the lower orders were kept strictly disciplined. The holiday in the sense of 'going away' is a democratisation of the aristocratic enlightenement Grand Tour. Paul Burke > SOED lists an Anglo Saxon derivation for Holy Day. For Holiday it > has Old English and Middle English derivations. It also gives usages > for 1440, and 1526. It also references each form to the other. Just out of interest, how do you distinguish between Anglo-Saxon and Old English? SignatureJohn Briggs > Just out of interest, how do you distinguish between Anglo-Saxon and Old > English? Old English developed from Anglo Saxon after the AS state was destroyed by Billy the Bastard. Losing the conservative force of officially sponsored scribes, the grammar and spelling simplified. So whereas the AS Chronicle was written in grammatical AS at Peterborough up to King Stephen's reign, most post- conquest writings are in the simplified form, which we now call Old English or Early English. I suspect that the spoken language in immediate pre- conquest times was closer to Old English than high AS. Paul Burke >> Just out of interest, how do you distinguish between Anglo-Saxon and >> Old English? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > English. I suspect that the spoken language in immediate pre- > conquest times was closer to Old English than high AS. Do you always post complete nonsense without thinking? SignatureJohn Briggs >> SOED lists an Anglo Saxon derivation for Holy Day. For Holiday it >> has Old English and Middle English derivations. It also gives usages >> for 1440, and 1526. It also references each form to the other. > Just out of interest, how do you distinguish between Anglo-Saxon and Old > English? There isn't a distinction: "The oldest stage of English, from the earliest records (abput AD 700) to soon after the Norman Conquest, is now generally called 'Old English', though the name 'Anglo-Saxon' is still often used. -- Sweet's Anglo-Saxon primer Axel > The 'modern' holiday has really taken the place of the fairs, which > were nothing if not commercial. I don't agree with that. I think the modern equivalents of the mdieval fairs would be a mic=xture of shopping malls and emplyment agencies. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk > > The 'modern' holiday has really taken the place of the fairs, which > > were nothing if not commercial. > I don't agree with that. I think the modern equivalents of the > mdieval fairs would be a mic=xture of shopping malls and emplyment > agencies. Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday". Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/40-juice.htm O-o-oh, the liquorice juice is running loose, And the rhubarb skins' a-peeling... | > > The 'modern' holiday has really taken the place of the fairs, which | > > were nothing if not commercial. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | | Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday". SOED has - A periodic gathering of buyers and sellers... cattle- horse-... The recreational aspects of a fair undoubtedly existed, but were far from paramount. If I were a farmer going to a fair, and bought or sold anything, agriculture related, the Inland Revenue would allow mileage, food and drink as business expenses. The modern equivalent of a fair is a Trade Exhibition, for which I have had reasonable expenses allowed by the Tax Man SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. > | Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday". > SOED has - A periodic gathering of buyers and sellers... cattle- > horse-... > The recreational aspects of a fair undoubtedly existed, but were far > from paramount. > If I were a farmer going to a fair, and bought or sold anything, > agriculture related, the Inland Revenue would allow mileage, food and > drink as business expenses. > The modern equivalent of a fair is a Trade Exhibition, for which I > have had reasonable expenses allowed by the Tax Man Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor the current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday" (Latin "feria", via OFr "feire"); and it thus seems not unreasonable to assume that the various trading aspects latched on to the the gathering for the celebration of the holiday, rather than the other way about as seems to be being claimed by some in the thread, not least your good self. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ada/0a-0.htm What exactly are meteor showers, and when is the best time to see them? >>> Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday". > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > rather than the other way about as seems to be being claimed by some > in the thread, not least your good self. I'm not convinced that "feria" existed as a singular word - except for ecclesiastical use, where it means a day which is not a saint's day! SignatureJohn Briggs > I'm not convinced that "feria" existed as a singular word - except > for ecclesiastical use, where it means a day which is not a saint's > day! I'll take your word for that use but the OED (& Chambers) does give fair from Latin feria, holiday and I have to suppose the compilers weren't just dashing it off in order to get away early that friday. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/4r-0.htm Red Magic Right Nostril of Nergal Right Hand in the Shadow of Death >> I'm not convinced that "feria" existed as a singular word - except >> for ecclesiastical use, where it means a day which is not a saint's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > fair from Latin feria, holiday and I have to suppose the compilers > weren't just dashing it off in order to get away early that friday. feriae (f. pl.) means 'festivals, holidays'. In Mediaeval Latin, "festum" means a 'festival'. SignatureJohn Briggs >> I'm not convinced that "feria" existed as a singular word - except >> for ecclesiastical use, where it means a day which is not a saint's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > fair from Latin feria, holiday and I have to suppose the compilers > weren't just dashing it off in order to get away early that friday. Yes, but if you read the definition as well, you see that OED gives the prime meaning of "fair" as being a periodical gathering of buyers and sellers, often with shows and entertainments. And under "feria" OED gives two meanings, the ecclesiatical one and a synonym of "fair". -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. > > I'll take your word for that use but the OED (& Chambers) does give > > fair from Latin feria, holiday and I have to suppose the compilers > > weren't just dashing it off in order to get away early that friday. > Yes, but if you read the definition as well, you see that OED gives > the prime meaning of "fair" as being a periodical gathering of buyers > and sellers, often with shows and entertainments. Which is the current and historical meanings as far back as written evidence exists; it does not, nor cannot, provide the evolution from simple meaning of "holiday" to "trading opportunity" should that in fact be the case. > And under "feria" OED gives two meanings, the ecclesiatical one and a > synonym of "fair". Sorry, didn't realise the OED was a Latin Dic. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ Where subtle shades of every hue, homogenize and mellow: Pages cyan, green, and blue; and red, magenta, yellow. | > > I'll take your word for that use but the OED (& Chambers) does give | > > fair from Latin feria, holiday and I have to suppose the compilers [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | simple meaning of "holiday" to "trading opportunity" should that in | fact be the case. The drift of meaning in English and its predecessors was the other way from Trading opportunity to holiday/entertainment. The trading opportunity meaning is alive and well. Here is a list of 16 fairs at the NEC next year. Some trade and others public. http://www.necgroup.co.uk/visitor/whatson/SearchWhatsOn.asp?k=fair Antiques for Everyone - The NEC Antiques Fair (Public) The NEC 28 - 31 Jul 2005 Toy Collectors' Fair (Public) The NEC 21 Aug 2005 Autumn Fair (Trade) The NEC 4 - 7 Sep 2005 Symphony Organ Silent Movie: The Iron Mask Symphony Hall 29 Sep 2005 Toy Collectors' Fair (Public) The NEC 9 Oct 2005 Baby & Child International Fair (Trade) The NEC 9 - 11 Oct 2005 Collect It! National Collectors' Fair (Public) The NEC 22 - 23 Oct 2005 The Festive Gift Fair 2005 (Public) The NEC 17 - 20 Nov 2005 Antiques for Everyone - The NEC Antiques Fair (Public) The NEC 24 - 27 Nov 2005 National Christmas Lacemaker's Fair (Public) The NEC 3 Dec 2005 Toy Collectors' Fair (Public) The NEC 11 Dec 2005 National Fine Art and Antiques Fair (Public) The NEC 18 - 22 Jan 2006 Spring Fair Birmingham 2006 (Trade) The NEC 5 - 9 Feb 2006 Toy Collectors' Fair (Public) The NEC 26 Feb 2006 British Travel Trade Fair (Trade) The NEC 1 - 2 Mar 2006 Toy Collectors' Fair (Public) The NEC 7 May 2006 <<< SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. > | Which is the current and historical meanings as far back as written > | evidence exists; it does not, nor cannot, provide the evolution > | from simple meaning of "holiday" to "trading opportunity" should > | that in fact be the case. > The drift of meaning in English and its predecessors was the other > way from Trading opportunity to holiday/entertainment. > The trading opportunity meaning is alive and well. Here is a list > of 16 fairs at the NEC next year. Some trade and others public. [Snip] Yes, of course, Dave. Bringing in all the so-called "fairs" held at the NEC does prove beyond all doubt that some one and half millennia or so ago, the denizens of backwater towns and villages across this land began to be treated to trade exhibitions on which occasions, sometime later, their employers granted them time off for merriment. I'll state again: wherever you find honest endeavours to bring a bit of R&R to yer common working folk by way of village fair, gala, show, or whatever other name used, you'll find ice-cream vans, bouncy castles and purveyors of shoddy souvenirs appearing as if by magic. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/quiz/20-0.htm What starts and ends as a laugh but isn't funny? > I'll state again: wherever you find honest endeavours to bring a bit of > R&R to yer common working folk by way of village fair, gala, show, or > whatever other name used, you'll find ice-cream vans, bouncy castles > and purveyors of shoddy souvenirs appearing as if by magic. There were few endeavours to grant relaxation time to the ordinary peasant - quite frequently even the stipulated holidays laid down by the Church were were not adhered to. Fairs and markets were established purely for commercial reasons - why pay for a licence unless a profit will be forthcoming. A major consideration in granting such a licence was whether creating a new market would harm an existing market - hardly a sign that recreation was an aim rather than a side-effect of such an institution. Axel > > I'll state again: wherever you find honest endeavours to bring a > > bit of R&R to yer common working folk by way of village fair, gala, > > show, or whatever other name used, you'll find ice-cream vans, > > bouncy castles and purveyors of shoddy souvenirs appearing as if by > > magic. > There were few endeavours to grant relaxation time to the ordinary > peasant - quite frequently even the stipulated holidays laid down by > the Church were were not adhered to. > Fairs and markets were established purely for commercial reasons - > why pay for a licence unless a profit will be forthcoming. A major > consideration in granting such a licence was whether creating a new > market would harm an existing market - hardly a sign that recreation > was an aim rather than a side-effect of such an institution. > That's as maybe but your answer still begs the question. I'm not disputing that the primary purpose of markets (and super-markets called "fairs") was to trade, I'm questioning whether or not you can state categorically that some ancient "fairs" did not originate as local pagan holidays where, alongside such gay events as the burning of wicker-men, dancing round the maypole, playing hunt-the-cherry, etc., purveyors of roast squirrel and stuffed cod made their mark. I've offered in support of my position the two facts that "fair" derives through Old French from a Latin word with the meaning "holiday", rather than "market", and that even today, local (or wider) events intended to be primarily recreational usually attract quite a number of traders and can, if not checked, turn into super-markets with the entertainment being merely side-shows. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/colour/6y-0.htm Say nothing on Sunday; contemplate this day the Golden Sun: A Sulphurous Yellow Light - but false - that from Cold Night was Spun. >>> I'll state again: wherever you find honest endeavours to bring a >>> bit of R&R to yer common working folk by way of village fair, gala, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > number of traders and can, if not checked, turn into super-markets > with the entertainment being merely side-shows. I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on which a market might be held. SignatureJohn Briggs > I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on which a market > might be held. Markets were originally held on Sundays in the main, but under ecclesiastical pressure were moved to weekdays by the early decades of the 13th century. Axel >> I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on which a market >> might be held. > >Markets were originally held on Sundays in the main, "in the main"? Were these fish markets? >but under >ecclesiastical pressure were moved to weekdays by the early decades >of the 13th century. > >Axel SignaturePeter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e) At 23:29:30 on Fri, 24 Jun 2005, Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> wrote in <k82pb1p7asui03ihpg31s0r5bhqkl6o288@4ax.com>: >>> I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on which >>>a market [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >"in the main"? Were these fish markets? Nice one. SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on which a > market might be held. You might wonder that but aren't we discussing fairs which generally are special events held on one day each year, not markets which occur on one day (or more) each week. Fairs are not, even now, "ordinary days". Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/wfolly/ The Wentworth Follies: Needle's Eye, Hoober Stand, Keppel's Column, Rockingham Mausoleum >> I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on which a >> market might be held. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > on one day (or more) each week. Fairs are not, even now, "ordinary > days". As the word (feire/faire) seems to have been adopted very late from OFr, you do have to wonder what they were called before - or if the phenomenon simply didn't exist. It doesn't seem to occur much in place-names, for example (except for field and streets). SignatureJohn Briggs > >> I do wonder if "feria" meaning 'ordinary day', was the day on > >> which a market might be held. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > which occur on one day (or more) each week. Fairs are not, even > > now, "ordinary days". > As the word (feire/faire) seems to have been adopted very late from > OFr, you do have to wonder what they were called before - or if the > phenomenon simply didn't exist. It doesn't seem to occur much in > place-names, for example (except for field and streets). Presumably we had a variety of Germanic and British terms for an assortment of local periodic events, most of which involved a deal of trading along with the remnants of pagan rituals (probably some events which were, indeed, nothing but super-markets), which generally were subsumed under the catch-all term "fair". I did wonder about your emphasis on ecclesiastical "feria" as fair coming through OFr "feire" suggests rather the possibility of an original evolution of the meaning from "holiday" to "super-market" either in classical Roman times or in post-Roman France, it them being applied to similar trading events in Britain. I still stand by my assertion that most old fairs (as opposed to Dave's modern trade fairs at the NEC) are held on or about special days - minor saints' days, important calendar days, etc. - and as such, it seems more likely that traders were attracted to a local public holiday, than that a local public holiday was invented because a "super-market" happened to be taking place, much as, today, garden centres and DIY stores time their major marketing efforts to Bank Holidays, rather than Bank Holidays having been created so that the public can visit these places. "Fair" in street names is to be expected if the yearly event is always held in the same place. We also have a lot of examples of "Market Square", "Market Street", etc., in many places. "Market" as an element in town names is quite common because the communities grew up around the weekly market servicing local farms and hamlets in the area. It is just about impossible to think of communities growing around the site of an event held only on just one or on a few consecutive days each year. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/photo/0y08-0.htm Devil's Arrow at Boroughbridge > As the word (feire/faire) seems to have been adopted very late from OFr, you > do have to wonder what they were called before - or if the phenomenon simply > didn't exist. It doesn't seem to occur much in place-names, for example > (except for field and streets). All those 'chipping', 'chip','cheap' and 'chep' names, related to chapman (though not Keats), shopping, kaufen, and Copenhagen? Paul Burke >> As the word (feire/faire) seems to have been adopted very late from >> OFr, you do have to wonder what they were called before - or if the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > All those 'chipping', 'chip','cheap' and 'chep' names, related to > chapman (though not Keats), shopping, kaufen, and Copenhagen? Exactly. You have "Chipping" (also sometimes "Port"), and later "Market". If you call it a "Fair", is it different? If so, it must be a late introduction. SignatureJohn Briggs >>All those 'chipping', 'chip','cheap' and 'chep' names, related to >>chapman (though not Keats), shopping, kaufen, and Copenhagen? > Exactly. You have "Chipping" (also sometimes "Port"), and later "Market". But back to the function of 'fair', whatever you call it, as a holiday in the modern sense. Point 1: the Polish national motto, a change of occupation is as good as a rest. Big markets were infrequent (annual or biennial) events. Point 2: most people would have rarely possessed much of a float of cash, except when they had made a successful sale of surplus goods or produce- at the market. Hence the gathering of CMOTs and suchlike charlatans at such events, the holiday- type consumption, the frivolous activities. We are looking back here at an age when leisure was a luxury only available to the very rich (and the very poor if the songs are to be believed). The non- productive activities that separate the idea of leisure from work would have to be snatched wherever available- such as fairs and holy days. No vacations then- you didn't travel for fun. Paul Burke | You might wonder that but aren't we discussing fairs which generally | are special events held on one day each year, not markets which occur | on one day (or more) each week. Fairs are not, even now, "ordinary | days". But they are different from Holy Days, a phrase which still has a meaning, to some Christians, if not the general populous. SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. > | You might wonder that but aren't we discussing fairs which > | generally are special events held on one day each year, not markets > | which occur on one day (or more) each week. Fairs are not, even > | now, "ordinary days". > But they are different from Holy Days, a phrase which still has a > meaning, to some Christians, if not the general populous. Dave, it may surprise you to hear this but Christianity is not the only religion. Anyway, such as Bank Holidays (and quarter days, etc.) are "holy days", even if they aren't (all) Christian "Holy Days". Also, check out "tawdry" (as ventured by John). Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/wfolly/3kc0-0.htm Keppel's Column: The Eastern Door | > | You might wonder that but aren't we discussing fairs which | > | generally are special events held on one day each year, not markets [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] | Dave, it may surprise you to hear this but Christianity is not the only | religion. See sig, also I live in Bradford. | Anyway, such as Bank Holidays (and quarter days, etc.) are "holy days", | even if they aren't (all) Christian "Holy Days". No they are secular, because they apply to those of all religions and non. SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> Chair, Bradford Curry Project <bradfordcurryproject@hyphenologist.co.uk> http://www.hyphenologist.co.uk/bradfordcurryproject > | Dave, it may surprise you to hear this but Christianity is not the > | only religion. > See sig, also I live in Bradford. I've seen your sig; it doesn't say anything about religion unless you're referring to the Holy Spirit as a mighty rushing wind. (I bet webshots.com has some triffic snaps of it!) > | Anyway, such as Bank Holidays (and quarter days, etc.) are "holy > | days", even if they aren't (all) Christian "Holy Days". > No they are secular, because they apply to those of all religions and > non. I was, of course, referring to the fundamental meaning of "holy" as "set apart". Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/0-alien.htm I shot a Bug-Eyed Monster, With my Bug-Eyed Monster gun; >>> You might wonder that but aren't we discussing fairs which >>> generally are special events held on one day each year, not markets [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> But they are different from Holy Days, a phrase which still has a >> meaning, to some Christians, if not the general populous. Populace. Which in this case *is* populous, and general (caviare to the general...) > Dave, it may surprise you to hear this but Christianity is not the > only religion. > > Anyway, such as Bank Holidays (and quarter days, etc.) are "holy > days", even if they aren't (all) Christian "Holy Days". "The Feast of St Bank" :-) SignatureJohn Briggs > > Anyway, such as Bank Holidays (and quarter days, etc.) are "holy > > days", even if they aren't (all) Christian "Holy Days". > "The Feast of St Bank" :-) Fair comment. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ -- Dacha's Digital Domicile http://www.grough.freeuk.com/j05.htm -- Light Plant Crossing >>> Which is the current and historical meanings as far back as written >>> evidence exists; it does not, nor cannot, provide the evolution [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > or whatever other name used, you'll find ice-cream vans, bouncy > castles and purveyors of shoddy souvenirs appearing as if by magic. Tawdry? SignatureJohn Briggs On Friday, in article <4d80180e7adavid@dacha.freeuk.com> > I'll state again: wherever you find honest endeavours to bring a bit of > R&R to yer common working folk by way of village fair, gala, show, or > whatever other name used, you'll find ice-cream vans, bouncy castles > and purveyors of shoddy souvenirs appearing as if by magic. Not to mention [the local equivalent of] CMOT Dibbler. SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte." Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 On Friday, in article <aghnb1takul8cqpquoqgo0ek29gtvlev8a@4ax.com> > The trading opportunity meaning is alive and well. Here is a list of 16 > fairs at the NEC next year. Some trade and others public. [snip] > Toy Collectors' Fair (Public) > The NEC 9 Oct 2005 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The Festive Gift Fair 2005 (Public) > The NEC 17 - 20 Nov 2005 [snip] You seem to have missed the National Vintage Communications Fair on 30th October? SignatureBrian {Hamilton Kelly} bhk@dsl.co.uk "Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte." Blaise Pascal, /Lettres Provinciales/, 1657 >> And under "feria" OED gives two meanings, the ecclesiatical one and a >> synonym of "fair". > > Sorry, didn't realise the OED was a Latin Dic. "Feria" is not exclusively a Latin word. It has a history of use in English, which is what tyhe OED entry describes, -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. > >> And under "feria" OED gives two meanings, the ecclesiatical one > >> and a synonym of "fair". > > > > Sorry, didn't realise the OED was a Latin Dic. > "Feria" is not exclusively a Latin word. It has a history of use in > English, which is what tyhe OED entry describes, So it was just a red herring then? Unless you're saying that feria is an English word which derives from OFr "feire", or an English use of a Latin word to provide a Latin equivalent of "fair", neither of which really helps in our quest to determine whether or not fair or its ancestry originally meant "holiday" (with whatever connotation that word had). Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/aureole/30-speak1.htm Iron, Germanium & Squares within Squares >>>I'm not convinced that "feria" existed as a singular word - except >>>for ecclesiastical use, where it means a day which is not a saint's [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > prime meaning of "fair" as being a periodical gathering of buyers and > sellers, often with shows and entertainments. This is, of course, the primary meaning today. But that doesn't mean that it was always the primary meaning. There are numerous words in the English language that derive from Latin but whose present meaning isn't a translation of the original Latin root. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan | > | Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday". | [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] | rather than the other way about as seems to be being claimed by some in | the thread, not least your good self. Not all Latin words give rise to similar sounding Anglo Saxon/OE/ME/English words with similar meanings. This one appears to be a "false friend" SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. > | Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor > | the current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > | of the holiday, rather than the other way about as seems to be > | being claimed by some in the thread, not least your good self. > Not all Latin words give rise to similar sounding Anglo > Saxon/OE/ME/English words with similar meanings. This one appears > to be a "false friend" Well, I wouldn't expect you to agree with the OED's etymology. What's your source? Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/mavic/0m03-0.htm Crackpot | > | Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor | > | the current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | Well, I wouldn't expect you to agree with the OED's etymology. What's | your source? Kindly read what you quoted SignatureDave Fawthrop <dave hyphenologist co uk> http://www.webshots.com Thousands of wonderful professional photos for your Wallpaper and Screensaver. also 200,000 amateur pics. Four new pics each day. > | > | Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, > | > | nor the current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > | Well, I wouldn't expect you to agree with the OED's etymology. > | What's your source? > Kindly read what you quoted Would I be correct in thinking that you suppose that although "fair" might derive (through OFr "feire") from Latin "feria", the poor, benighted Angles didn't have any time off and so used the same word to mean "car boot sale" (for which activity they didn't have a word of their own)? Or do you mean that AS/OE/ME/English (phew!) "fair" just happens to sound like it could derive from Latin "feria" but doesn't really? Dave, you're not very clear and simply referring back to your previous confusing (or confused? Since it's confusing, it's difficult to tell) post doesn't really help. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ >>| > | Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, >>| > | nor the current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > confusing (or confused? Since it's confusing, it's difficult to tell) > post doesn't really help. Since the German word "Ferien" meaning holidays (and the first syllable is pronounced the same as "fair") derives from the Latin "feriae" meaning holidays and various English dictionaries, including those already cited and teh Merriam-Webster, say that "fair" also derives from "feriae" I think it's fairly safe to assume that this is the case. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >>>> Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday". >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Saxon/OE/ME/English words with similar meanings. This one appears > to be a "false friend" And you are inventing non-existent languages - stop it! The designations are OE/ME/ModE. SignatureJohn Briggs > In article <pqqkb1pha3g54a3gl9kkqbeqshkt3aj9sv@4ax.com>, Dave Fawthrop >> SOED has - A periodic gathering of buyers and sellers... cattle- >> horse-... >> The recreational aspects of a fair undoubtedly existed, but were far >> from paramount. >> If I were a farmer going to a fair, and bought or sold anything, >> agriculture related, the Inland Revenue would allow mileage, food and >> drink as business expenses. >> The modern equivalent of a fair is a Trade Exhibition, for which I >> have had reasonable expenses allowed by the Tax Man > Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor the > current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word "fair" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rather than the other way about as seems to be being claimed by some in > the thread, not least your good self. Fairs were associated with religious festivals. They were usually held annually and lasted several days (in contrast with local weekly markets) attracting visitors from far afield. They were primarily commercial events - they brought a profit to the landowner and required a royal licence. Fairs were certainly a break from routine since no other commercial business was permitted within the local area for the duration of a fair. Axel > Dave, I don't give a flying fig about the SOEDing definition, nor the > current tax aspects. I was merely pointing out that the word "fair" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > rather than the other way about as seems to be being claimed by some > in the thread, not least your good self. I'm not sure about that. In ecclesiastical use the word "feria" means a day which is neither a feast day nor a fast. In the town where I grew up we had three annual fairs. One of these was the Sheep Fair which was exactly what the name suggests, a gathering for a few days to buy & sell flocks of sheep. This died out when the local farmers decided that barley was a morfe profitable line than sheep. The other two were (and still are) known as Mop Fairs, and had originally been hiring fairs, at which farm and domestic workers sought employment for the cominmg year. These were linked in the town's Charter (granted by King John in the 13th Century) to the town's right to hold markets. By the middle-twentieth century (if not sooner) the Mop Fairs had become ordinary fun-fairs. I believe that fairs started out in medieval times as trading occasions, bigger versions of the weekly markets, and the celebratory elements became attached to them. -- Mike Stevens narrowboat Felis Catus II Web site www.mike-stevens.co.uk No man is an island. So is Man. [Snip] > I believe that fairs started out in medieval times as trading > occasions, bigger versions of the weekly markets, and the celebratory > elements became attached to them. And no doubt the Temple in Jerusalem started out as a bureau de change... ;-) Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ada/0b-0.htm ...beneath the Masonic pyramid is the legend NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM... >> > The 'modern' holiday has really taken the place of the fairs, which >> > were nothing if not commercial. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Mustn't forget that the word "fair" originally meant "holiday". Then there's "fayre". I've never been sure whether that's a genuine alternative form or just an "olde worlde" spelling made up for effect. I always want to pronounce it fay-ree. According to <http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/faq/aboutspelling/fayre> it is genuinely old but now used to lend "an historick flavour" to both "fair" and "fare". SignaturePhil C. >> There is still a law, a remnant of the old Sunday Trading Law which >> banned certain business altogether on Sundays, which says that > Errm, that's the *new* Sunday Trading Act (passed in 1994) which got rid > of all the anomalies with the old piecemeal legislation which applied to > shopping on Sundays. Yes, that's what I meant. There were once very extensive restrictions on trading on Sundays. The fact that there are still some restrictions is a remnant of the idea, enshrined in older legislation, that any non essential work should be banned on Sundays. >> six hours chosen tend to be 1000 to 1600 or 1000 to 1700. > ITYM 1100--1700. Yes, must have mis-typed. Matthew Huntbach tony@softins.clara.co.uk wrote: > > Hello. > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > where people will say "Happy Holidays" as a secular alternative to > "Happy Christmas". Not just these two. I hear people - bank tellers, counter clerks/shop assistants, etc - here routinely saying "have a great holiday', and 'y'all have a great holiday now!', a few days before almost any national holiday. Of which, I might add, there seem to be an excessive number in the calendar! > I believe that the singular "holiday" in US English usually means > a public holiday, which in British English is called a "bank holiday", > i.e. a day when most businesses are closed. > > Cheers > Tony Right: I find "Bank Holiday" is never used here. Most non-government businesses, food stores (supermarkets), department stores, even banks are open on some or all of the national holidays. Thanksgiving Day (the 4th Thursday in November I think it falls on), the 4th of July, and Christmas Day are the ones almost everyone likes to have off. -- Ian |
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