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Discussion Groups / British English / September 2005Origin & earliest usage of "Plonker" (eg. "Rodney you Plonker")
Researching my family history I recently discovered that an ancestor of mine, first name "John" married in Godalming, Surrey, on 5th December 1596 a young lady, Elizabeth PLONKER. (Yes, the jokes are predictable....) The LDS website shows the PLONKER surname disappearing about mid-1600s... Does anyone have a view on the earliest occurrence of "PLONKER" in the modern, "Only Fools & Horses" sense of "Rodney you PLONKER, or what the origin was ??? NB For non-UK readers... "Only Fools & Horses" was a TV programme... Yours aye TIA Rab On 31 Aug 2005, Rab C Nesbitt wrote > Researching my family history I recently discovered that an > ancestor of mine, first name "John" married in Godalming, Surrey, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the modern, "Only Fools & Horses" sense of "Rodney you PLONKER, or > what the origin was ??? The earliest quote for that sense in the supplement to OED1 is as recent as 1966. There's a 19th-century dialect meaning, though, for something large and substantial, and a quote from 1861 applies it to a thick piece of cloth: that might be the source.  SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian (30 years) and British (23 years) For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van >On 31 Aug 2005, Rab C Nesbitt wrote > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >substantial, and a quote from 1861 applies it to a thick piece of >cloth: that might be the source. I get the impression that comedies like to have catch-phrase expletives that sound obscene but are actually too meaningless to attract complaints - the "Naff" of Porridge and "Feck" of Father Ted. SignaturePhil C. >>On 31 Aug 2005, Rab C Nesbitt wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > expletives that sound obscene but are actually too meaningless to > attract complaints - the "Naff" of Porridge and "Feck" of Father Ted. Gosh: "Naff" is fairly old, I think... * naff - Origin unknown, various theories; naff may perh. be < Italian gnaffa despicable person (16th cent.); Not Available For f.cking is prob. later rationalization; OED Suppl. 1976 compares to N. Engl. slang naffy, naffhead, simpleton. & ===== Entry from OED Online naff, a. DRAFT REVISION June 2003 Brit. colloq. Forms: 19- naff, (rare) naph. [Origin unknown (see note below). Prob. unrelated to slightly earlier NAFF v. Various theories have been proposed as to the origin of this word. It has been suggested that it is (in Polari slang: see PARLYAREE n.) < naff in naff omi a dreary man (cf. OMEE n.), in which naff may perh. be < Italian gnaffa despicable person (16th cent.). For evidence of early use in the context of other Polari terms cf. the following early example (from the same writers as quot. 1966): 1967 B. TOOK & M. FELDMAN Round the Horne (1975) 113 Sandy. He had an experience in Bognor didn't you Jule. Julian. Yes. Very naff it was. [Cf. p. 12: Camp Chat... Naph = Bad.] One of the most popular theories is the suggestion that the word is perh. an acronym either < the initial letters of Normal As f.ck, or < the initial letters of Not Available For f.cking, but this seems to be a later rationalization. O.E.D. Suppl. (1976) compares the earlier English regional (northern) forms naffhead, naffin, naffy, all denoting a simpleton or idiot (see Eng. Dial. Dict. s.v. Naff v.), and also NIFF-NAFF n., NIFFY-NAFFY a., and NYAFF n., NYAFF v.] Unfashionable, vulgar; lacking in style, inept; worthless, faulty. 1966 B. TOOK & M. FELDMAN in B. Took Best of 'Round the Horne' (1989) 156, I couldn't be doing with a garden like this... I mean all them horrible little naff gnomes. 1970 Sunday Tel. (Brisbane) 22 Feb. 92/1, I have been to no less than three parties in the past two weeks which rejoiced in the naffest bit of social intercourse it has been my misfortune to witness. 1982 L. CODY Bad Company ii. 13 No electricity... I think it's just a naff battery connection. 1983 Sunday Tel. 21 Aug. 11/3 It is naff to call your house The Gables, Mon Repos, or Dunroamin'. 2000 J. OWEN in J. Adams et al. Girls' Night In 178 Mistake naff trompe l'oeil on wall for real doorway and walk straight into it. ========== >> I get the impression that comedies like to have catch-phrase >> expletives that sound obscene but are actually too meaningless to [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >Girls' Night In 178 Mistake naff trompe l'oeil on wall for real doorway and >walk straight into it. Yes - "naff" as a pejorative adjective is well established but Porridge used it meaninglessly in expressions such as "Naff all" and "Naff off" - clearly just replacing a less acceptable word. Partridge has "naf" as the female pudend from ca1845, possibly an early form of back slang. But then Partridge seems to have almost everything as the female pudend at one time or another. SignaturePhil C. ....> >Yes - "naff" as a pejorative adjective is well established but >Porridge used it meaninglessly in expressions such as "Naff all" and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >early form of back slang. But then Partridge seems to have almost >everything as the female pudend at one time or another. What is this pudend? The last slice of dead man's leg? OED knows it not. And what would a male one look like? Mike Page > ....> >> Yes - "naff" as a pejorative adjective is well established but [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > What is this pudend? The last slice of dead man's leg? OED knows it > not. And what would a male one look like? Actually, it would seem to be a coinage by Partridge - he certainly uses it elsewhere, in "Shakespeare's Bawdy", for example. SignatureJohn Briggs >....> >>Yes - "naff" as a pejorative adjective is well established but [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >What is this pudend? The last slice of dead man's leg? OED knows it >not. And what would a male one look like? A genital. SignaturePhil C. At 15:52:21 on Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> wrote in <nnpgh1pencdua240vho2l70kn7p1h12tt0@4ax.com>: >>What is this pudend? The last slice of dead man's leg? OED knows it >>not. And what would a male one look like? > >A genital. Oh, like Hitler had? SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > At 15:52:21 on Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> > wrote in <nnpgh1pencdua240vho2l70kn7p1h12tt0@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Oh, like Hitler had? Thanks for a new bout of STS, Molly. (Isn't someone supposed to shout "G****n" at this point?) SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) At 17:51:30 on Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Laura F. Spira <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in <df9vuf$fcn$2@newsg2.svr.pol.co.uk>: >> At 15:52:21 on Fri, 2 Sep 2005, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> >>wrote in <nnpgh1pencdua240vho2l70kn7p1h12tt0@4ax.com>: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Thanks for a new bout of STS, Molly. Oops, sorry, Laura! Here, let me offer you the Ode To Joy instead... SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) > Oops, sorry, Laura! Here, let me offer you the Ode To Joy instead... All together now: Schadenfreude, Telefunken Tochter aus dem Museum, Wir betreten biertrunken, Himmlerisch sieg heiligtum... At 11:13:28 on Sat, 3 Sep 2005, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote in <3ntc19F37hflU2@individual.net>: >> Oops, sorry, Laura! Here, let me offer you the Ode To Joy >>instead... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Wir betreten biertrunken, >Himmlerisch sieg heiligtum... Sehr schoen! Is it yours, or where did you find it? Google knows it not. SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >>....> >>>Yes - "naff" as a pejorative adjective is well established but [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >A genital. Wouldn't that be a pudendum? Maybe a pudend could be a bit of a genital, a German helmet perhaps (as in 'Last night I pulled me pud, it did me good, I knew it would ...'). (OED recognises 'genital' as a word - and further down the entry imparts to useful information that 'If the genitals be immersed for some time in cold water, it will generally stop a bleeding at the nose.' Mike Page > 'If the genitals be immersed for > some time in cold water, it will generally stop a bleeding at the > nose.' But my genitals never bleed at the nose? >>>....> >>>>Yes - "naff" as a pejorative adjective is well established but [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >genital, a German helmet perhaps (as in 'Last night I pulled me pud, >it did me good, I knew it would ...'). As every anatomist knows, the gentleman's pudend is to be found in his underpant. The lady's is in her knicker. Quod erat demonstrand SignaturePhil C. >>>>....> >>>>>Yes - "naff" as a pejorative adjective is well established but [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Quod erat demonstrand <Applause> And, why can't a lady with a wooden leg change a five pound note? Mike Page Mike Page spake thusly: > >>>>....> > >>>>>Yes - "naff" as a pejorative adjective is well established but [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > And, why can't a lady with a wooden leg change a five pound note? Hmmmm. ITYM "a pound note". SignatureDavid ===== replace usenet with the >Mike Page spake thusly: >> >> And, why can't a lady with a wooden leg change a five pound note? > >Hmmmm. ITYM "a pound note". I updated it a bit, seeing as pound notes no longer exist as legal tender in the UK. Mike Page Mike Page spake thusly: > >Mike Page spake thusly: > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I updated it a bit, seeing as pound notes no longer exist as legal > tender in the UK. But doesn't that rather spoil the joke? - Because she's only got £2.50? SignatureDavid ===== replace usenet with the > Mike Page spake thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > - Because she's only got £2.50? I don't get it... Ivan Ivan spake thusly: > > Mike Page spake thusly: > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > I don't get it... I could tell you the punch line and you probably still wouldn't get it. What? OK, you asked for it: - Because she's only got half a nicker. SignatureDavid ===== replace usenet with the > Ivan spake thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > -- > David I know nickers (although I thought it was knickers) means underwear; is "nicker" slang for pound? Ivan > I know nickers (although I thought it was knickers) means underwear; is > "nicker" slang for pound? Yes. OED2: One pound sterling. 1910 Sessions Papers 1 June 128, I suppose this has cost you a couple of nickers. 1939 [see caser2]. 1960 D. Lessing In Pursuit of English ii. 66 It's a little matter. A hundred nicker. And it'd double itself in a year. 1966 F. Shaw et al. Lern Yerself Scouse 34 Five nicker, five pounds; five pound note. 1975 J. Symons Three Pipe Problem xv. 138 Who said there'd be trouble? Anyway, it's a hundred nicker. If this usage is still current then I see no reason why the pun should not work even though coins are now used for pounds. The use of fivers escapes me completely. Giles Signature"Sense of humour? What's one of them, then?" >>Mike Page spake thusly: >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Mike Page a) The only form of legal tender in UK is £1 & £2 COINS.... notes are but promissory notes... b) But in Scotland we still have £1 notes (and £100 notes...) Hello?? Anyone there from the ENGLISH empire??? > a) The only form of legal tender in UK is £1 & £2 COINS.... notes > are but promissory notes... So if you eat a meal in a restaurant and attempt to pay a £9.75 with a £10 note, the restaurant is not obligated to accept it nor to have informed you that it would not accept it prior to your incurring the debt, and following such refusal the debt would remain? According to the Wikipedia entry, Bank of England notes are legal tender in England and Wales, as are UK coins in all denominations, although not in unlimited quantities: Legal tender in the United Kingdom In the United Kingdom, only coins valued 1 pound Sterling and 2 pounds Sterling are legal tender in unlimited amounts throughout the territory of the United Kingdom. The United Kingdom legislation that introduced the 1 pound coin left no United Kingdom-wide legal tender banknote. Currently, 20 pence pieces and 50 pence pieces are legal tender in amounts up to 10 pounds; 5 pence pieces and 10 pence pieces are legal tender in amounts up to 5 pounds; and 1 penny pieces and 2 pence pieces are legal tender in amounts up to 20 pence. ... Legal tender in England and Wales Bank of England notes are the only banknotes that are legal tender in England and Wales. United Kingdom coinage is legal tender, but not in unlimited amounts for coins below £1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Code should be designed to make it 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |easy to get it right, not to work Palo Alto, CA 94304 |if you get it right. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> a) The only form of legal tender in UK is £1 & £2 COINS.... notes >> are but promissory notes... [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_tender Still there eh? I left HP a few years back: Nice-ish people, easy parking, but sooooo arrogant - almost but not quite as bad as IBM in their Mainframe hay-day (I was there!) or Microsoft now.... Clearly I'd bow to the superior knowledge of Palo Alto over UK legal tender.... To be fair I was quoting from my memory of an e-mail reply I had from the Bank of England on the subject some years back.. and nope, can't find the e-mail.. Only reason I asked the BoE was I'd just been declined by a shopkeeper in Clapham High Street for a set of Christmas Lights when I proffered a £10 Scottish note,,, and in a fit of pique ask the BoE... and was surprised by their answer... (As usual nowadays as I get older....) my memory was playing tricks... If you look at http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/factnote.pdf the relevant bit says.... " LEGAL TENDER AND THE PROMISE TO PAY The concept of legal tender is often misunderstood. Contrary to popular opinion, legal tender is not a means of payment that must be accepted by the parties to a transaction, but rather a legally defined means of payment that should not be refused by a creditor in satisfaction of a debt. This makes legal tender a rather narrow legal concept that has little to do with the way in which most payments are made. In practice, people are often willing to accept payment by cheque, standing order, debit or credit card - in fact by any instrument that they are confident will deliver value. The current series of Bank of England notes are legal tender in England and Wales, although not in Scotland or Northern Ireland, where the only currency carrying legal tender status for unlimited amounts is the one and two pound coins. " So, I regret, my memory was somewhat fuzzy, and Wikipedia is wrong. (NB Note for non-UK readers: "The Bank of England" is a branch of the English Empire that controls and governs the use of money in the United Kingdom. ) Rab C Nesbitt spake thusly: > If you look at > http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/factnote.pdf [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > The current series of Bank of England notes are legal tender > in England and Wales, That bit looks wrong to me, unless somebody's changed the rules. Don, are you still there? Is the Bank publishing misleading information on its own web site? > although not in Scotland or Northern > Ireland, where the only currency carrying legal tender status > for unlimited amounts is the one and two pound coins. SignatureDavid ===== replace usenet with the >Rab C Nesbitt spake thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >Don, are you still there? Is the Bank publishing misleading >information on its own web site? It looks as if a creditor isn't obliged to accept legal tender, but if he doesn't he can't (in law) complain about the debt remaining unpaid. For a cash transaction, it would appear that a seller can pick'n'choose what form of payment he will accept (which seems reasonable: we discussed offers to treat and the like not so long ago). >> although not in Scotland or Northern >> Ireland, where the only currency carrying legal tender status >> for unlimited amounts is the one and two pound coins. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! > So if you eat a meal in a restaurant and attempt to pay a £9.75 with a > £10 note, the restaurant is not obligated to accept it nor to have > informed you that it would not accept it prior to your incurring the > debt, and following such refusal the debt would remain? We don't say "obligated". SignatureJohn Briggs > > So if you eat a meal in a restaurant and attempt to pay a £9.75 > > with a £10 note, the restaurant is not obligated to accept it nor > > to have informed you that it would not accept it prior to your > > incurring the debt, and following such refusal the debt would > > remain? > We don't say "obligated". Such a petty critique! Perhaps you should trial it for a while. I realised just how much a foreigner to English I had become when I heard on the TV series "Charmed" that the top demon was going to be coronated. Signaturehttp://www.dacha.freeuk.com/ada/07-0.htm ...can you tell me what is the correct time to boil an egg? At 15:45:13 on Thu, 8 Sep 2005, David <david@dacha.freeuk.com> wrote in <4da73d8846david@dacha.freeuk.com>: >> We don't say "obligated". No, but *they* do. This thread is cross-posted. (You must forgive any typos - my cat is doing his dpeciality of sitting bang in front of my monitor and looking incredibly handsome in profile, so I am having to rely on touch-typing. Fortunately I am a trained touvh-tpyits.) >I realised just how much a foreigner to English I had become when I >heard on the TV series "Charmed" that the top demon was going to be >coronated. Produced by G.W.B., prhaps? SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >And, why can't a lady with a wooden leg change a five pound note? Because she's married to Paul McCartney and wouldn't even wipe her arse with anything less than a fifty? SignaturePhil C. >>And, why can't a lady with a wooden leg change a five pound note? > > Because she's married to Paul McCartney and wouldn't even wipe her > arse with anything less than a fifty? Plonker At 19:16:44 on Sun, 4 Sep 2005, Phil C. <philstoxicwaste@fsmail.net> wrote in <qcemh1pi1plebkdj4po6pb2o3seea9r4gj@4ax.com>: >>And, why can't a lady with a wooden leg change a five pound note? > >Because she's married to Paul McCartney and wouldn't even wipe her >arse with anything less than a fifty? I had a somewhat funnier response drafted along the same lines but scrapped it on the grounds of ill-taste... SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >>Wouldn't that be a pudendum? Maybe a pudend could be a bit of a >>genital, a German helmet perhaps (as in 'Last night I pulled me pud, >>it did me good, I knew it would ...'). > >As every anatomist knows, the gentleman's pudend is to be found in his >underpant. The lady's is in her knicker. If you want the genital analgue of a pudend, it would be a genit. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >On 31 Aug 2005, Rab C Nesbitt wrote <snip> > I get the impression that comedies like to have catch-phrase > expletives that sound obscene but are actually too meaningless to > attract complaints - the "Naff" of Porridge and "Feck" of Father Ted. > -- > Phil C. "Feck" is a common variant of "f.ck" in Ireland. It is a bit less vulgar but still may cause offence. Its use predates Father Ted by a long way. There is a town near here called "Feckenham", English people tend to think it an unremarkable name but my father, who is Irish, finds it hilarious. -- Seán O'Leathlóbhair >> >On 31 Aug 2005, Rab C Nesbitt wrote > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >"Feck" is a common variant of "f.ck" in Ireland. As is "fook" as in "The fookin' t'ing won't work now, will it." > It is a bit less >vulgar but still may cause offence. Its use predates Father Ted by a >long way. There is a town near here called "Feckenham", English people >tend to think it an unremarkable name but my father, who is Irish, >finds it hilarious. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>>> On 31 Aug 2005, Rab C Nesbitt wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> expletives that sound obscene but are actually too meaningless to >>> attract complaints - the "Naff" of Porridge and "Feck" of Father Ted And the "smeg" of Red Dwarf. And the "fug" of "Naked and the Dead" (cue Dorothy Parker anecdotes). >> "Feck" is a common variant of "f.ck" in Ireland. > > As is "fook" as in "The fookin' t'ing won't work now, will it." Used in the UK in the written form as a straight euphemism for "f.ck". I presume by people who rhyme "fook" with RP "book" as I can't imagine "f.ck" being pronounced with anything like a long double-o sound. But the more genteel newspapers invariably quote Bob Geldof as saying "Give us your fookin money" when we know very well Bob never avoids saying "f.ck". SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> presume by people who rhyme "fook" with RP "book" as I can't imagine > "f.ck" being pronounced with anything like a long double-o sound. It's not. Book, took, look, hook, cook, are all pronounced (by them as knows) with the -00- sound as in balloon or schooner. f.ck is pronounced to rhyme with muck and duck, and has a short u sound. Southerners pronounce it 'fack' or f'ck with a schwa. Paul Burke >>>>> On 31 Aug 2005, Rab C Nesbitt wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >And the "smeg" of Red Dwarf. And the "fug" of "Naked and the Dead" (cue >Dorothy Parker anecdotes). Didn't The Likely Lads have "chuffing" as a meaningless swear word as in "Chuffing Hell!" etc? Or does my memory play tricks? It seems that suitable swear words for comedies must be vaguely familiar and sound vaguely ruder than they are. It's interesting that "f.ck" is now acceptable on post-watershed British TV (e.g Katherine Tate's Cockney Gran) but I suppose some comedies look to overseas sales. SignaturePhil C. Phil C. spake thusly: > It seems that suitable swear words for comedies must be vaguely > familiar and sound vaguely ruder than they are. It's interesting that > "f.ck" is now acceptable on post-watershed British TV (e.g Katherine > Tate's Cockney Gran) but I suppose some comedies look to overseas > sales. And at any hour on BBC3. SignatureDavid ===== replace usenet with the > And the "smeg" of Red Dwarf... I assumed that it was related to smegma, as I couldn't see any point in using the name of a well-known German manufacturer of kitchen equipment as an expletive. > >>> I get the impression that comedies like to have catch-phrase > >>> expletives that sound obscene but are actually too meaningless to > >>> attract complaints - the "Naff" of Porridge and "Feck" of Father Ted > > And the "smeg" of Red Dwarf. And the "fug" of "Naked and the Dead" (cue > Dorothy Parker anecdotes). Frell! SignatureSML >> >>> I get the impression that comedies like to have catch-phrase >> >>> expletives that sound obscene but are actually too meaningless [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Frell! Yeah, frell that dren. Seán O'Leathlóbhair spake thusly: > > >On 31 Aug 2005, Rab C Nesbitt wrote > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > tend to think it an unremarkable name but my father, who is Irish, > finds it hilarious. But it's pronounced Faykenham, so the sound isn't the same. SignatureDavid ===== replace usenet with the > Seán O'Leathlóbhair spake thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > ===== > replace usenet with the Are we both talking about the same Feckenham, the one in Worcestershire? I haven't noticed "Faykenham" despite living only a few miles away. If I did hear it, I would have been likely to regard it as an affectation. However, I would admit that I am not from this area and most of the people that I frequently talk to are not from this area either. We are probably using a spelling pronunciation. In the case of my father, it is the signs that usually amuse him so the correct pronunciation is irrelevant. -- Seán O'Leathlóbhair Seán O'Leathlóbhair spake thusly: > > Seán O'Leathlóbhair spake thusly: > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > area and most of the people that I frequently talk to are not from this > area either. We are probably using a spelling pronunciation. Nope. Despite having grown up only a few miles away, I failed to recognise the Worcestershire Feckenham (it has been 30 years though). I was thinking of the town in Norfolk which is pronounced as I said but spelled "Fakenham". Your pronunciation is correct, but it didn't amuse us as children, possibly because we weren't Irish. > In the case of my father, it is the signs that usually amuse him so the > correct pronunciation is irrelevant. So where are you? I lived in Bromsgrove from age 11 - 19. SignatureDavid ===== replace usenet with the > Seán O'Leathlóbhair spake thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > but spelled "Fakenham". Your pronunciation is correct, but it didn't > amuse us as children, possibly because we weren't Irish. I have heard of Fakenham but I did not guess that you were thinking of it. To me, they are quite different but written and spoken. > > In the case of my father, it is the signs that usually amuse him so the > > correct pronunciation is irrelevant. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ===== > replace usenet with the I don't like to be too specific in the groups but I pay my council tax to Stratford-on-Avon. I am not in Stratford itself but a village outside vaguely towards Feckenham. I grew up in London and Essex. -- Seán O'Leathlóbhair spake thusly: > I have heard of Fakenham but I did not guess that you were thinking of > it. To me, they are quite different but written and spoken. I know. I don't know why I mixed them up. > > So where are you? I lived in Bromsgrove from age 11 - 19. > > I don't like to be too specific in the groups but I pay my council tax > to Stratford-on-Avon. I am not in Stratford itself but a village > outside vaguely towards Feckenham. OK, not Bromsgrove then. SignatureDavid ===== replace usenet with the > spake thusly: > > > I have heard of Fakenham but I did not guess that you were thinking of > > it. To me, they are quite different but written and spoken. > > I know. I don't know why I mixed them up. You weren't confused by my strange mistype: "but" instead of "both"? The curse of spell checkers, they are liable to change simple mistakes into nonsense. I guess that I missed the "h" and it changed "bot" into "but". > > > So where are you? I lived in Bromsgrove from age 11 - 19. > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > OK, not Bromsgrove then. No, but it is not far and I have some friends and colleagues who live there. Where are you now? > -- > David > ===== > replace usenet with the -- Seán O'Leathlóbhair Sean, do tell, how do you pronounce your surname? Does the accent over the a in your forename imply that you pronounce it with two syllables rather than one? Nosey. >Sean, do tell, how do you pronounce your surname? > >Does the accent over the a in your forename imply >that you pronounce it with two syllables rather than one? I think there may be a clue within the angle brackets. SignatureJohn Hall You can divide people into two categories: those who divide people into two categories and those who don't > >Sean, do tell, how do you pronounce your surname? > > > >Does the accent over the a in your forename imply > >that you pronounce it with two syllables rather than one? > > I think there may be a clue within the angle brackets. I must be slow this morning, but I got there in the end. > > >Sean, do tell, how do you pronounce your surname? > > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I must be slow this morning, but I got there in the end. You are not the only one, even I did not get it straight away. As John seems to have noticed, in day to day life I am John Lawler. But when I first started posting to this group and sci.lang, I discovered that there was another John Lawler already here. After some experimentation, I settled on the Irish form of my name as a nom-de-clavier. It would be equally applicable to the other John but I got it first. I was actually born in London but my parents were both born in Ireland. Explaining the pronunciation of my surname would take quite a while. If you are interested, scan this group and sci.lang for it. One or the other contains an explanation with contributions from people whose Irish is better than mine. Seán is easier to explain. There is only one syllable. It is sometimes rewritten in English as "Shaun" and this is a good approximation. The accent on the "a" makes it long, similar to English "au" (in some dialects). The "e" serves a very different purpose, it is silent but affects the "s". Irish distinguishes palatal and velar consonants in a similar way to Russian but a different spelling system is used. The consonant is palatal if it is adjacent to "e" or "i" and otherwise velar. Note that I say "adjacent to" and not "followed by". A preceding "e" palatalises as well as a following "e". To avoid ambiguity, there is a rule that if an "e" or "i" precedes a consonant then one of these vowels must follow it and vice versa. This is a large part of the explanation of the many silent vowels in Irish. -- Seán O'Leathlóbhair (Often known as John Lawler but not in the groups) <snip> > Explaining the pronunciation of my surname would take quite a while. > If you are interested, scan this group and sci.lang for it. One or the > other contains an explanation with contributions from people whose > Irish is better than mine. As someone who used to be bilingual Irish- English, although I would no longer claim to be, perhaps I might be allowed to give a rough approximation for English speakers: "oh lyahlohwir" - "oh" is long and not a diphthong as in standard English and "ah" is short. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Regards, Einde O'Callaghan Thanks. That looks like a reasonable approximation for its size. Why have you allowed your Irish to lapse? It seems a shame. My parents have done the same. They used to be fluent. They were at school shortly after independence and were schooled in Irish. English was only spoken in English lessons. My father learnt Latin through the medium of Irish. But after many years in England, they have forgotten most of it. At the height of my abilities, I could correspond with my mother in Irish but that is a long time ago. -- Seán O'Leathlóbhair <jwlawler@yahoo.com> wrote... > Why have you allowed your Irish to lapse? It seems a shame. My > parents have done the same. In Ireland itself they hardly set a good example. On my recent visit it seemed that, almost without exception, the first written road sign after "An Gealtacht" was in English, the more's the pity. >><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Why have you allowed your Irish to lapse? I haven't lived in Ireland for 35 years and have never had anybody with whom to converse. However, on a visit to Galway about 10 years ago I had a short conversation with the former proprietress of Kenny's Bookshop while looking for the bi-lingual edition of Cúirt an Mheáin Oíche and the novel Lig Sinn i gCathú, which I'd already read in the authors English translation. It was remarkable how much came back in that time of need! Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >I haven't lived in Ireland for 35 years and have never had anybody with >whom to converse. However, on a visit to Galway about 10 years ago I had [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >English translation. It was remarkable how much came back in that time >of need! Is your Irish good enough to tell me whether the picture at the bottom left here is claimed to be of Anna Maria Crouch? If so, is any source indicated? <http://www.geocities.com/gaeilgeoireile/kelly.htm> She may be a relative by marriage or she may just have a coincidental connection with someone of the same surname who was her accompanist and arranger. I'm pretty sure I already know the stuff about Michael Kelly on the rest of the page - his autobiogs online in English. Thanks if you can help translate that last bit. Anna Maria is said to have been a bit of a cracker so obviously she can't be a blood relative, ho hum. SignaturePhil C. >>I haven't lived in Ireland for 35 years and have never had anybody with >>whom to converse. However, on a visit to Galway about 10 years ago I had [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > indicated? > <http://www.geocities.com/gaeilgeoireile/kelly.htm> It says she was a singer and Kelly's lover. No source is given for teh picture other than the of the article - a magazine called Comhar, February 1982. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan >>>I haven't lived in Ireland for 35 years and have never had anybody with >>>whom to converse. However, on a visit to Galway about 10 years ago I had [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >picture other than the of the article - a magazine called Comhar, >February 1982. Thanks - I'll e-mail the author (found on another part of website) to see if there's an earlier source given in the magazine. SignaturePhil C. > > I must be slow this morning, but I got there in the end. > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Seán O'Leathlóbhair > (Often known as John Lawler but not in the groups) Many thanks for the explanation. Having recently returned from a holiday in Ireland, my interest was piqued. It's the silent consonants that are more troubling, I find. >>>I must be slow this morning, but I got there in the end. >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > from a holiday in Ireland, my interest was piqued. > It's the silent consonants that are more troubling, I find. They're not really silent consonants, they are strictly speaking modified consonants that follow the standard orthography for the irish language. Asnyway country with placenames like Leicester, Gloucester and Worcester of surnames like Featherstonehaugh or Cholmondeley can't really talk about truly silent letters!!! ;-) Regards, Einde O'Callaghan > > Many thanks for the explanation. Having recently returned > > from a holiday in Ireland, my interest was piqued. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > of surnames like Featherstonehaugh or Cholmondeley can't really talk > about truly silent letters!!! ;-) I quite agree, and it's the silent bits that always cause the problems for non-locals, even if they were born in the same country. > Asnyway country with placenames like Leicester, Gloucester and > Worcester of surnames like Featherstonehaugh or Cholmondeley can't > really talk about truly silent letters!!! ;-) Featherstonehaugh is pronounced more or less as written - the idea that it is pronounced "Fanshaw" was a music hall joke. SignatureJohn Briggs >>Sean, do tell, how do you pronounce your surname? >> >>Does the accent over the a in your forename imply >>that you pronounce it with two syllables rather than one? > > I think there may be a clue within the angle brackets. You mean "Seán" is pronounced "jwlawler"? I knew Gaelic was difficult to pronounce. SignatureRob Bannister > >>Sean, do tell, how do you pronounce your surname? > >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- > Rob Bannister Yes, and "O'" is "@" and "Leathlóbhair" is yahoo.com. But can you complain? In English "Raymond Luxury-Yacht" might be pronounced: " Throat Wobbler Mangrove ". -- Seán O'Leathlóbhair >>>> Sean, do tell, how do you pronounce your surname? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > But can you complain? In English "Raymond Luxury-Yacht" might be > pronounced: " Throat Wobbler Mangrove ". It's "Warbler". SignatureJohn Briggs >>>>> Sean, do tell, how do you pronounce your surname? >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >It's "Warbler". Odd coincidence. That skit was on a Python show that I watched within the past few days. The one with the false nose. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > > But can you complain? In English "Raymond Luxury-Yacht" might be > > pronounced: " Throat Wobbler Mangrove ". > It's "Warbler". I thought so too, until I looked it up, or the friend I was talking to did, I forget which. It is Wobbler. SignatureMark Brader "I love talking about nothing. Toronto It's the only thing I know anything about." msb@vex.net --Lord Goring (Oscar Wilde: An Ideal Husband) > > > But can you complain? In English "Raymond Luxury-Yacht" might be > > > pronounced: " Throat Wobbler Mangrove ". [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Toronto It's the only thing I know anything about." > msb@vex.net --Lord Goring (Oscar Wilde: An Ideal Husband) I remembered it as "Wobbler", "Warbler" would have been a bit too sensible. But, I was sufficiently unsure that I did a check first. Opinions on the net differ but the majority seems to be for "Wobbler". Seán O'Leathlóbhair >>>> But can you complain? In English "Raymond Luxury-Yacht" might be >>>> pronounced: " Throat Wobbler Mangrove ". >>> It's "Warbler". >> I thought so too, until I looked it up, or the friend I was talking >> to did, I forget which. It is Wobbler. > I remembered it as "Wobbler", "Warbler" would have been a bit too > sensible. But, I was sufficiently unsure that I did a check first. > Opinions on the net differ but the majority seems to be for "Wobbler". Never go to the Net for the wording of quotations, for it will say both "Wobbler" and "Warbler". SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Well, I'm back", he said. msb@vex.net -- Tolkien (The Lord of the Rings) > >>>> But can you complain? In English "Raymond Luxury-Yacht" might be > >>>> pronounced: " Throat Wobbler Mangrove ". [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Mark Brader, Toronto "Well, I'm back", he said. > msb@vex.net -- Tolkien (The Lord of the Rings) Indeed but what else could I do? It is not in any of my dictionaries of quotations and if I had asked my friends or colleagues the discussion would probably still be raging now. -- Seán O'Leathlóbhair spake thusly: > > >>>> But can you complain? In English "Raymond Luxury-Yacht" might be > > >>>> pronounced: " Throat Wobbler Mangrove ". [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > of quotations and if I had asked my friends or colleagues the > discussion would probably still be raging now. I thought I had the answer to this, but: I reached to the bookshelf in my study where I have a two-volume set of the scripts of Monty Python, printed in ink on paper and presumably proof read, as things were in 1989 when the books were published. For some reason, only one of the two books is there - the other must be somewhere else around the house. Tant pis, I thought, I have a 50% chance of the right volume. I checked the index. "Raymond Luxury Yacht Sketch", I read (no hyphen), "page 259". I turned to page 259, which was the first page of Episode 38. No sign of Raymond. I read the whole of the episode. No sign of Raymond. I went to the internet to check which episode contains this sketch. Apparently, it's episode 19. Back to the book. It starts at Episode 24. I check online to see what other sketches are in the same episode as Raymond, and look them up in the index. They are shown, within a few pages of page 259. I can only think that the book mistakenly has the index for volume 1 printed in the back. I wonder if volume 1 has the index for volume 2. Is the book very valuable? Anywho, if I find volume 1, I will report back. SignatureDavid ===== replace usenet with the >>> Never go to the Net for the wording of quotations, for it will say both >>> "Wobbler" and "Warbler". >> Indeed but what else could I do? It is not in any of my dictionaries >> of quotations ... > I reached to the bookshelf in my study where I have a two-volume set > of the scripts of Monty Python, printed in ink on paper ... "Monty Python's Flying Circus: Just The Words". > For some reason, only one of the two books is there - the other must > be somewhere else around the house. Tant pis, I thought, I have a > 50% chance of the right volume. I checked the index. "Raymond > Luxury Yacht Sketch", It actually says "interview", not "Sketch". > I read (no hyphen), "page 259". I turned to > page 259, which was the first page of Episode 38. No sign of > Raymond. I read the whole of the episode. No sign of Raymond. Huh. That is an error in the Volume 2 index. As the sketch is in Volume 1, the entry should be in italics and show "19", meaning that Episode 19 is in the other volume. It's just the one entry that's wrong. In these days of computers that wouldn't happen -- they'd get *all* of them wrong instead. :-) > Anywho, if I find volume 1, I will report back. I find this distrust of *my* reporting slightly disconcerting. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Not looking like Pascal is not msb@vex.net a language deficiency!" -- Doug Gwyn Mark Brader spake thusly: > Huh. That is an error in the Volume 2 index. As the sketch is in > Volume 1, the entry should be in italics and show "19", meaning [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I find this distrust of *my* reporting slightly disconcerting. You mean your earlier use of "looked it up" indicated that you looked it up in a printed book? I'm sorry, but I didn't take it that way - my default Usenet "looked it up" is now via an Internet source. Looking something up in an old fashioned papyrus document seems to merit a particular mention. So that's three of us who have the books to hand. Scary. SignatureDavid ===== replace usenet with the Mark Brader: >> I find this distrust of *my* reporting slightly disconcerting. "David": > You mean your earlier use of "looked it up" indicated that you looked > it up in a printed book? I'm sorry, but I didn't take it that way - > my default Usenet "looked it up" is now via an Internet source. It meant in a reliable source, which for quotations generally does not mean an Internet source. In this case it was the book. Of course, a still more reliable source than the book would be the episode itself; but given the pronunciation issues involving short O's and various A-sounds, together with those involving R's, it might be hard for some listeners to tell whether the word was supposed to be "warbler" or "wobbler". As I said, I thought it was "warbler" myself; I assume I misheard it for exactly that reason. But I haven't seen the episode for a long time. SignatureMark Brader "Oh, I'm a programmer and I'm O.K.... Toronto I work all night and I sleep all day" msb@vex.net -- Trygve Lode (after Monty Python) My text in this article is in the public domain. > You mean your earlier use of "looked it up" indicated that you > looked it up in a printed book? I'm sorry, but I didn't take it > that way - my default Usenet "looked it up" is now via an Internet > source. Looking something up in an old fashioned papyrus document > seems to merit a particular mention. What if you use the internet to search a paper book? Checking Amazon for "python raymond luxury" points you to the book in question, which is searchable and has No, no, no -- it's spelt Raymond Luxury Yach-t, but it's pronounced 'Throatwobbler Mangrove'. on page 259. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The General Theorem of Usenet 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Information: If you really want to Palo Alto, CA 94304 |know the definitive answer, post |the wrong information, and wait for kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |someone to come by and explain in (650)857-7572 |excruciating detail precisely how |wrong you are. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Eric The Read At 13:48:21 on Wed, 31 Aug 2005, Seán O'Leathlóbhair <jwlawler@yahoo.com> wrote in <1125521301.582156.200820@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>: >"Feck" is a common variant of "f.ck" in Ireland. It is a bit less >vulgar but still may cause offence. Its use predates Father Ted by a >long way. There is a town near here called "Feckenham", English people >tend to think it an unremarkable name but my father, who is Irish, >finds it hilarious. I used to giggle over French placenames such as Caen and St Lot, until I realised that the French probably also giggled over Kent. SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) >> >On 31 Aug 2005, Rab C Nesbitt wrote > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >tend to think it an unremarkable name but my father, who is Irish, >finds it hilarious. So what do feckless people do in Ireland, then? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Researching my family history I recently discovered that an ancestor of > mine, first name "John" married in Godalming, Surrey, on 5th December 1596 a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > modern, "Only Fools & Horses" sense of "Rodney you PLONKER, or what the > origin was ??? I came across the word referring to a condom (probably used) but I don't know where the reference was - almost certainly post WWII. Of course, this may be essentially the same as the OF&H usage, given that words which were originally considered quite offensive gradually lose their virulence as the memory of the original meaning fades. Examples of this include berk and dork. > Researching my family history I recently discovered that an ancestor > of mine, first name "John" married in Godalming, Surrey, on 5th [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > modern, "Only Fools & Horses" sense of "Rodney you PLONKER, or what > the origin was ??? OED records "plonk" as a term for the lowest rank in the RAF: " 1941 New Statesman 30 Aug. 218/3 A.C. Plonk-Lowest in the R.A.F., aircraftman 2nd class. 1943 C. H. Ward-Jackson Piece of Cake 10 A/C Plonk, aircraftman 2nd class. In 1914-1918 'plonk' was Flanders slang for 'mud'. Hence, an A/C Plonk is an aircraftman literally in the mud or at the bottom-that is, lowest classification of the lowest rank in the R.A.F. " I can easily see "plonk" expanding to "plonker". SignatureJohn Dean Oxford Hence, an A/C Plonk is an aircraftman literally in the mud or > at the bottom-that is, lowest classification of the lowest rank in the > R.A.F. > > I can easily see "plonk" expanding to "plonker". Plausible, but if we're into folk etymology, I'll derive it from Plank Lane, between Leigh and Wigan, pronounced Plonk Loan. The inhabitants are the butt of jokes and stories to the surrounding communitie, indeed could be considered 'Plonkers'. Paul Burke > Hence, an A/C Plonk is an aircraftman literally in the mud or > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > are the butt of jokes and stories to the surrounding communitie, indeed > could be considered 'Plonkers'. It's a bit far away from Sarf Landan, however. Regards, Einde O'Callaghan At 08:45:43 on Thu, 1 Sep 2005, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote in <3nnqk6F2d0r1U1@individual.net>: > Hence, an A/C Plonk is an aircraftman literally in the mud or >> at the bottom-that is, lowest classification of the lowest rank in the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >are the butt of jokes and stories to the surrounding communitie, indeed >could be considered 'Plonkers'. I first came across the word in the early 80s as a euphemism for penis (to be exact, in the phrase "I pull his plonker a lot"!). So when I heard it in OF&H I assumed it was used in the sense of dick or prick. SignatureMolly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.) |
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