German Letter in the English Language!?
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Peter Willer - 08 Oct 2005 13:35 GMT Hi,
a friend told me that in earlier times, the English Language had the Letter "ß", in Germany called "sz". I've googled around but haven't found further information. Is here someone, who knows more about this?
I hope I've chosen the subject well, I only guess that the German Language is the only one, which contain the letter "sz".
Thanks in advance & greetings from Germany, Peter
Einde O'Callaghan - 08 Oct 2005 13:57 GMT > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I hope I've chosen the subject well, I only guess that the German > Language is the only one, which contain the letter "sz". Earlier in English (and in other languages too) there were two forms of the letter "s". One looked a bit like "f" without the crossbar and the otehr looked like the modern "s". When you had double "s" it was often written like "fs" (without the crossbar on the "f" , of course). For frequently occurring letter combinations such as "ss", "ti", "fi" etc.printers often used combined letters called ligatures because it saved time (and space) while typesetting with loose type. This meant that a "ss" often looked like the German letter "ß". This ligature was retained in German, becoming a semi-independent letter itself, while it disappeared in other languages - this was probably aided by the fact that in the old gothic script (Fraktur) many letter pairs were represented by such ligatures.
It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such ligatures too.
Hope that helps a bit.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Peter Willer - 08 Oct 2005 14:10 GMT >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. Incidentally > the German umlauted letters originated from such ligatures too.
> Hope that helps a bit. Yes, it helps a lot!
Thank you, Peter
John Briggs - 08 Oct 2005 20:21 GMT > It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. > Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such > ligatures too. I'm not so sure about that - the Dutch "ij" is supposed to represent y-umlaut (rather than vice versa).
 Signature John Briggs
Einde O'Callaghan - 08 Oct 2005 23:58 GMT >>It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. >>Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such >>ligatures too. > > I'm not so sure about that - the Dutch "ij" is supposed to represent > y-umlaut (rather than vice versa). I don't know anything about Dutch, but I have seen old inscriptions and documents in German where instead of the modern umlaut (i.e. 2 dots over the letter) there is a small "e" as a sort of superscript over the letter.
Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Phil C. - 09 Oct 2005 14:37 GMT >>>It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. >>>Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >documents in German where instead of the modern umlaut (i.e. 2 dots over >the letter) there is a small "e" as a sort of superscript over the letter. When we last stayed in Gemany it took us a while to realise that "Pruem" as described in the English version of the brochure was actually "Prüm".
 Signature Phil C.
Giles Todd - 09 Oct 2005 01:00 GMT > > It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. > > Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such > > ligatures too. > > I'm not so sure about that - the Dutch "ij" is supposed to represent > y-umlaut (rather than vice versa). Is it ballocks. The letter 'y' in standard Dutch is called 'griekse ypsilon' (nice example of recursion there) and is used only in borrowed words, so you would need to come up with an explanation for umlauting a vowel that doesn't exist in the language for that to work. So far as I can tell, 'y' is only used with its consonantal value in Dutch (with the caveats regarding archaic spelling stated below).
In Dutch handwriting, 'ij' often closely resembles 'y' with a diaeresis simply because that is an easy way to write it in cursive script, but it is rarely, if ever, so in print (I have seen non-dotted 'y' in archaic formations of Dutch words, such as names of places and people, but that is now a non-standard substitution for 'ij').
The 'Van Dale Groot woordenboek der Nederlandse taal' has this to say on the subject:
het is een misverstand de y gelijk te stellen met de ij, zoals in alfabetische rangschikkingen vaak gebeurt (en in alfabetische naamlijsten op praktische gronden misschien te rechtvaardigen is): de ij behoort beschouwd te worden als i + j; de y is de Griekse vocaal u
Rough translation:
it is a misunderstanding that 'y' can be placed with 'ij', as often happens in alphabetical ordering (and may be reasonable on practical grounds in alphabetical lists): 'ij' is to be considered as 'i + j', 'y' is the Greek vowel [ypsilon]
Since there is a standard for Dutch, prescribed by the Nederlandse Taalunie, and Van Dale's publications faithfully follow that standard, such comments can be taken as being authoritative in a manner not available to claims to authority regarding English.
Perhaps you are thinking of Afrikaans, where the 'ij' letter (composed of two glyphs, but still a single letter) is frequently replaced with 'y' with or without a diaeresis? Afrikaans is close to Dutch, but differs in many respects, including orthography.
Giles
John Briggs - 09 Oct 2005 17:25 GMT >>> It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. >>> Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > So far as I can tell, 'y' is only used with its consonantal value in > Dutch (with the caveats regarding archaic spelling stated below). OK - in that case, explain "ij".
 Signature John Briggs
Ivan - 09 Oct 2005 20:33 GMT > >>> It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. > >>> Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > John Briggs It's a newspaper - the Independent Journal (Marin County, CA)
I thought this was a group about English.
Giles Todd - 10 Oct 2005 00:40 GMT > I thought this was a group about English. It is apparently also a newsgroup for English speakers to make incorrect assertions about languages with which they are unfamiliar.
Why anyone would want to do this is another question entirely. I can't even pretend to offer an answer.
Giles
Giles Todd - 10 Oct 2005 00:26 GMT > OK - in that case, explain "ij". naam van de lettercombinatie bestaande uit de tekens i en j, gebruikt om, in een aantal woorden, de tweeklank ei weer te geven:
deze ij wordt vaak, ter onderscheiding van de ei, de lange ij genoemd
Graag gedaan en met vriendelijke groeten.
Giles
Ben Shimmin - 10 Oct 2005 00:37 GMT Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu>:
>> OK - in that case, explain "ij". > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Graag gedaan en met vriendelijke groeten. I haven't the faintest idea what it (or any of this) means, but the word `tweeklank' sounds marvellous.
b.
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Nick Wagg - 10 Oct 2005 09:54 GMT > I haven't the faintest idea what it (or any of this) means, but the word > `tweeklank' sounds marvellous. In the typically prosaic fashion of the Dutch, "tweeklank" neither sounds as pretty (or prissy) as an English-speaking person might expect, nor means anything more exciting than two-sound.
David - 10 Oct 2005 16:35 GMT > > I haven't the faintest idea what it (or any of this) means, but the > > word `tweeklank' sounds marvellous.
> In the typically prosaic fashion of the Dutch, "tweeklank" neither > sounds as pretty (or prissy) as an English-speaking person might > expect, nor means anything more exciting than two-sound. Sounds like most Dutch to me: twee for a while, then clank!
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Peter Duncanson - 11 Oct 2005 17:10 GMT >> I haven't the faintest idea what it (or any of this) means, but the word >> `tweeklank' sounds marvellous. > >In the typically prosaic fashion of the Dutch, "tweeklank" neither >sounds as pretty (or prissy) as an English-speaking person might >expect, nor means anything more exciting than two-sound. When I first read that I split "tweeklank" into "tweek" and "lank"; which had me puzzled. Then I moved the first "k" and the pieces fell into place with a satisfying clunk.
 Signature Peter Duncanson UK (posting from u.c.l.e)
Giles Todd - 11 Oct 2005 03:42 GMT No more wondrous than 'diphthong' (ooer, missus).
[IJ]
name of the letter combination consisting of the glyphs 'i' and 'j', used in a number of words to represent the diphthong 'ei':
often this 'ij', in order to distinguish it from 'ei', is called the 'long ij'
Just to confuse matters, in archaic spellings the formulation 'eij' is sometimes used in place of 'ei'. A friend of mine has the surname 'Van Bergeijk', for instance. Checking the CD version of the telephone book, I find that 'Bergeyk' also exists.
Neither of these versions conform to modern standard Dutch orthography, however. Fortunately, while the Nederlandse Taalunie might prescribe what is possible in modern standard Dutch, it does not have the authority to require people to change the spelling of their names.
Giles
Nick Wagg - 11 Oct 2005 09:25 GMT > Neither of these versions conform to modern standard Dutch > orthography, however. Fortunately, while the Nederlandse Taalunie > might prescribe what is possible in modern standard Dutch, it does not > have the authority to require people to change the spelling of their > names. Neither does it have any control over what happened before the NT was inaugurated.
Paul Burke - 11 Oct 2005 10:02 GMT >>Neither of these versions conform to modern standard Dutch >>orthography, however. Fortunately, while the Nederlandse Taalunie [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Neither does it have any control over what happened before > the NT was inaugurated. http://rudhar.com/lingtics/nlij_en.htm http://www.answers.com/topic/ij-letter
It seems that it started life just as a printer's convention for the letter y, much like the s-zett over there ->. Is there any evidence of it in manuscript BEFORE it was established in print?
Funny how you humans get yourselves into these tangles- the English sore thumbs are, of course, the taboo on split infinitives, and the possessive apostrophe, both utterly bogus and unnecessary grammatically.
Paul Burke
Molly Mockford - 11 Oct 2005 18:51 GMT At 10:02:47 on Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote in <3r1e66Fh8m7bU1@individual.net>:
>Funny how you humans get yourselves into these tangles- Paul, is there something you should be telling us?
 Signature Molly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
Giles Todd - 12 Oct 2005 02:31 GMT > http://rudhar.com/lingtics/nlij_en.htm Ruud's interest is in typography. He's usually right as well, but I note that the page to which you refer has nothing to say on the matter of 'ij' being an umlauted 'y', which suggestion is what started my contributions to this thread.
> http://www.answers.com/topic/ij-letter No argument with that article either. It also has nothing to say about the point in contention.
> Funny how you humans get yourselves into these tangles- the English sore > thumbs are, of course, the taboo on split infinitives, and the > possessive apostrophe, both utterly bogus and unnecessary grammatically. Funny how you non-humans keep introducing irrelevancies into the discussion.
Giles
Giles Todd - 12 Oct 2005 02:16 GMT > > Neither of these versions conform to modern standard Dutch > > orthography, however. Fortunately, while the Nederlandse Taalunie [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Neither does it have any control over what happened before > the NT was inaugurated. Nor does it have much control over how people use Dutch at any particular time. NT just prescribes how people are supposed to use the language at arbitrarily chosen publication dates and thereafter, until NT changes its mind. I expect that German, French and Spanish speakers find their official language definers similarly irritating. But NT prescribes the official language as of its most recent publication dates.
Here is a nice rant about Dutch spelling reform: http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j19/duch.php
In the paragraph about the 'tussenletter problem', the writer gives one example of a silly contradiction introduced by the 1996 spelling rules ('bessesap' versus 'bessenwijn'). These dictated (with some exceptions and rules guiding those exceptions) that compound words using the schwa 'tussenletter' which was previously indicated by the letter 'e' would henceforth represent that schwa by the letters 'en'.
Now, on the face of it, this reform makes some sense (so long as you ignore beverages made from redcurrants), since terminal consonants in Dutch are often unvoiced. Terminal 'b' sounds like 'p', terminal 'd' sounds like 't', etc. An unvoiced 'n' is usually so quiet as to be inaudible (try it if you don't believe me). So, the reform still conformed to common pronunciation.
This change involved changing the spelling of many words. But, for many nouns in Dutch, the '-en' suffix is the marker for a plural (cf English 'oxen' and 'children'). Sometimes, this isn't a problem. 'Notekraker' (English 'nutcracker') became 'notenkraker', for instance. This change was uncontroversial since a nutcracker is an implement for cracking nuts. 'Nutcracker' could be read as 'nutscracker' in the reformed orthography. Nothing egregiously wrong with that. The meaning of the word is correctly conveyed with either spelling.
Things became a little iffy with 'pannekoek' (English 'pancake') becoming 'pannenkoek' since the new spelling could be read as meaning a cake that is made in multiple pans. Nevertheless, it was accepted, albeit with grumbles from pedants.
Where newspaper editorials started to be written, though, was over the change in the spelling of the word for "Queen's Day" (an important public holiday celebrating the Queen's official birthday). 'Koninginnedag' became 'koninginnendag'. This could be read to imply that there was more than one Queen. Much public indignation ensued, together with (unfulfilled) threats that some newspapers would not adopt the new orthography. 'Koninginnendag' remains the official spelling, but things got quite heated for a while.
For what it's worth, I live about 400 metres away from Koninginneweg (sic) and there is no Koninginnenweg in Amsterdam. I very much doubt that the name of the street will be changed to accommodate the official orthography of the day.
I prefer the system of definition by commonly accepted usage, as used when describing English. At least the spellings don't keep changing while I am not paying attention (not during my expected lifetime anyway).
Giles
Nick Wagg - 12 Oct 2005 09:22 GMT > I prefer the system of definition by commonly accepted usage, as used > when describing English. At least the spellings don't keep changing > while I am not paying attention (not during my expected lifetime > anyway). And if the commonly accepted spelling does change in your lifetime, you can just carry on using the old form. Alright?
Giles Todd - 12 Oct 2005 23:57 GMT > And if the commonly accepted spelling does change in your lifetime, > you can just carry on using the old form. Alright? Absolutely!
Giles
Giles Todd - 18 Oct 2005 03:48 GMT > And if the commonly accepted spelling does change in your lifetime, > you can just carry on using the old form. Alright? The bloody rules have just changed again. The mushrooms ('paddenstoelen') which officially became 'paddestoelen' in 1996 will once again officially be 'paddenstoelen' with effect from August 2006. See:
http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=24466& name=Revised+Dutch+dictionary+sparks+debate+
or
http://tinyurl.com/9mp63
if your newsreader barfs on wrapped lines.
I shall hang fire on buying new dictionaries until the fuss dies down and, in the meantime, insist on buying only 'champignons' when I go to the market.
Giles
 Signature Bastards.
John Briggs - 10 Oct 2005 01:19 GMT >> OK - in that case, explain "ij". > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Graag gedaan en met vriendelijke groeten. OK - now explain how that answers the question.
 Signature John Briggs
John Briggs - 10 Oct 2005 01:34 GMT >>> It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. >>> Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > grounds in alphabetical lists): 'ij' is to be considered as 'i + j', > 'y' is the Greek vowel [ypsilon] If 'y' is a Greek vowel, why do you say it is only used consonantally? What about the name 'Kroymans'?
 Signature John Briggs
Giles Todd - 11 Oct 2005 03:25 GMT > If 'y' is a Greek vowel, why do you say it is only used consonantally? No, ypsilon is the Greek vowel. 'Griekse ypsilon' is the Dutch letter. Unsurprisingly, since Greek and Dutch are different languages, the letters are used in different ways in each language.
In modern standard Dutch, 'y' is used only in borrowed words and has a consonantal value. That is why it is nonsense to talk about an umlauted 'y'. Umlaut involves a change in the sound of a vowel produced by partial assimilation to an adjacent sound, usually that found in a subsequent syllable (e.g. German 'Mann' [singular] -> 'Männer' [plural]). In German, the two dots above the 'a' are used to indicate that umlaut has occurred, but it is a mistake to assume thereby that two dots above any letter in any other language indicates the process of umlaut. It doesn't work in English, for a start (cf 'coöperate', now more usually hyphenated). Standard Dutch uses the 'two dots over a letter' to indicate syllable separation rather than umlaut, although hyphenation is gradually taking over this role as in English.
If you want to claim that 'ij' is an umlauted 'y' then you first have to explain what is the original vowel sound and then you have to explain what it changes into and what influences that change.
> What about the name 'Kroymans'? See the bit I wrote about archaic spelling in names of places and people, most likely deriving from the cursive 'ij'. 'Fortuyn' is another example. Neither is standard modern Dutch, though.
If you are really interested in the standard Dutch language then a good place to start is here: http://taalunieversum.org/en/
Giles
John of Aix - 12 Oct 2005 19:05 GMT In German, the two dots above the 'a' are used to
> indicate that umlaut has occurred, but it is a mistake to assume > thereby that two dots above any letter in any other language indicates > the process of umlaut. It doesn't work in English, for a start (cf > 'coöperate', now more usually hyphenated). Standard Dutch uses the > 'two dots over a letter' to indicate syllable separation As does French. 'Naïve' for example. which would otherwise be pronounced 'nave'.
Tony Mountifield - 12 Oct 2005 16:59 GMT > In Dutch handwriting, 'ij' often closely resembles 'y' with a > diaeresis simply because that is an easy way to write it in cursive > script, but it is rarely, if ever, so in print (I have seen non-dotted > 'y' in archaic formations of Dutch words, such as names of places and > people, but that is now a non-standard substitution for 'ij'). I remember some years ago noting with interest in a Dutch or Flemish telephone directory that ij and y were considered identical in the alphabetical ordering of names. So you had "Van Dijck" and "Van Dyck" all mixed in together.
Cheers Tony
 Signature Tony Mountifield Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk Play: tony@mountifield.org - http://tony.mountifield.org
John Briggs - 12 Oct 2005 17:50 GMT >> In Dutch handwriting, 'ij' often closely resembles 'y' with a >> diaeresis simply because that is an easy way to write it in cursive [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > alphabetical ordering of names. So you had "Van Dijck" and "Van Dyck" > all mixed in together. Outrageous! Anyone would think they were the same...
 Signature John Briggs
Giles Todd - 13 Oct 2005 00:10 GMT > I remember some years ago noting with interest in a Dutch or Flemish > telephone directory that ij and y were considered identical in the > alphabetical ordering of names. So you had "Van Dijck" and "Van Dyck" > all mixed in together. That bit was covered a few days ago in Message-ID: <mekgk1t7vrci0f57af0pj9c9ud97cr2ft1@4ax.com>
It happens. The Nederlandse Taalunie says that it shouldn't, but it does, because it would be an enormous pain in the arse if it didn't. This is often a problem when one tries to prescribe a natural language.
For what it's worth, the names 'Deick', 'Dijk' and 'Deik' also occur in the Dutch phone book. Of the five variants, only the forms 'Dijk' and 'Deik' are blessed by the current (1996) spelling rules.
Giles
Giles Todd - 13 Oct 2005 01:17 GMT > For what it's worth, the names 'Deick', 'Dijk' and 'Deik' also occur > in the Dutch phone book. Of the five variants, only the forms 'Dijk' > and 'Deik' are blessed by the current (1996) spelling rules. Apologies. There are at least six variants. Earlier, I forgot to check for 'Dyk', which also exists in the phone book. Still only two 'official' spellings, though.
Giles
John of Aix - 08 Oct 2005 20:34 GMT >> Hi, >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > often written like "fs" (without the crossbar on the "f" , of > course). I once read a very clever piece in which every 's' sound had been turned into f and which was hilarious to read. This was long before word processors made such a thing relatively easy. In fact nowadays with a search and replace you can turn any old EULA into something from the 18th century. An automatic translation to and back from any old language beforehand adds to the fun.
Molly Mockford - 08 Oct 2005 23:24 GMT At 21:34:48 on Sat, 8 Oct 2005, John of Aix <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> wrote in <43484533$0$17214$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>:
>I once read a very clever piece in which every 's' sound had been turned >into f and which was hilarious to read. There was an episode of the excellent "The Vicar of Dibley" where Alice, the intellectually-challenged girl-verger, had to read from an antique bible whose Ss looked like Fs, and Geraldine interrupted her just before she got to the word "succour".
 Signature Molly Mockford They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin (My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
John of Aix - 09 Oct 2005 08:32 GMT > At 21:34:48 on Sat, 8 Oct 2005, John of Aix <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr> > wrote in <43484533$0$17214$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > antique bible whose Ss looked like Fs, and Geraldine interrupted her > just before she got to the word "succour". ;-)
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