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German Letter in the English Language!?

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Peter Willer - 08 Oct 2005 13:35 GMT
Hi,

a friend told me that in earlier times, the English Language had the
Letter "ß", in Germany called "sz". I've googled around but haven't
found further information. Is here someone, who knows more about this?

I hope I've chosen the subject well, I only guess that the German
Language is the only one, which contain the letter "sz".

Thanks in advance & greetings from Germany,
Peter
Einde O'Callaghan - 08 Oct 2005 13:57 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I hope I've chosen the subject well, I only guess that the German
> Language is the only one, which contain the letter "sz".

Earlier in English (and in other languages too) there were two forms of
the letter "s". One looked a bit like "f" without the crossbar and the
otehr looked like the modern "s". When you had double "s" it was often
written like "fs" (without the crossbar on the "f" , of course). For
frequently occurring letter combinations such as "ss", "ti", "fi"
etc.printers often used combined letters called ligatures because it
saved time (and space) while typesetting with loose type. This meant
that a "ss" often looked like the German letter "ß". This ligature was
retained in German, becoming a semi-independent letter itself, while it
disappeared in other languages  - this was probably aided by the fact
that in the old gothic script (Fraktur) many letter pairs were
represented by such ligatures.

It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. Incidentally
the German umlauted letters originated from such ligatures too.

Hope that helps a bit.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Peter Willer - 08 Oct 2005 14:10 GMT
>> Hi,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> It might help if you gathered information about ligatures. Incidentally
> the German umlauted letters originated from such ligatures too.

> Hope that helps a bit.

Yes, it helps a lot!

Thank you,
Peter
John Briggs - 08 Oct 2005 20:21 GMT
> It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
> Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
> ligatures too.

I'm not so sure about that - the Dutch "ij" is supposed to represent
y-umlaut (rather than vice versa).
Signature

John Briggs

Einde O'Callaghan - 08 Oct 2005 23:58 GMT
>>It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
>>Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
>>ligatures too.
>
> I'm not so sure about that - the Dutch "ij" is supposed to represent
> y-umlaut (rather than vice versa).

I don't know anything about Dutch, but I have seen old inscriptions and
documents in German where instead of the modern umlaut (i.e. 2 dots over
the letter) there is a small "e" as a sort of superscript over the letter.

Regards, Einde O'Callaghan
Phil C. - 09 Oct 2005 14:37 GMT
>>>It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
>>>Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>documents in German where instead of the modern umlaut (i.e. 2 dots over
>the letter) there is a small "e" as a sort of superscript over the letter.

When we last stayed in Gemany it took us a while to realise that
"Pruem" as described in the English version of the brochure was
actually "Prüm".
Signature

Phil C.

Giles Todd - 09 Oct 2005 01:00 GMT
> > It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
> > Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
> > ligatures too.
>
> I'm not so sure about that - the Dutch "ij" is supposed to represent
> y-umlaut (rather than vice versa).

Is it ballocks.  The letter 'y' in standard Dutch is called 'griekse
ypsilon' (nice example of recursion there) and is used only in
borrowed words, so you would need to come up with an explanation for
umlauting a vowel that doesn't exist in the language for that to work.
So far as I can tell, 'y' is only used with its consonantal value in
Dutch (with the caveats regarding archaic spelling stated below).

In Dutch handwriting, 'ij' often closely resembles 'y' with a
diaeresis simply because that is an easy way to write it in cursive
script, but it is rarely, if ever, so in print (I have seen non-dotted
'y' in archaic formations of Dutch words, such as names of places and
people, but that is now a non-standard substitution for 'ij').

The 'Van Dale Groot woordenboek der Nederlandse taal' has this to say
on the subject:

het is een misverstand de ‘y’ gelijk te stellen met de ‘ij’, zoals in
alfabetische rangschikkingen vaak gebeurt (en in alfabetische
naamlijsten op praktische gronden misschien te rechtvaardigen is): de
‘ij’ behoort beschouwd te worden als ‘i’ + ‘j’; de ‘y’ is de Griekse
vocaal u

Rough translation:

it is a misunderstanding that 'y' can be placed with 'ij', as often
happens in alphabetical ordering (and may be reasonable on practical
grounds in alphabetical lists): 'ij' is to be considered as 'i + j',
'y' is the Greek vowel [ypsilon]

Since there is a standard for Dutch, prescribed by the Nederlandse
Taalunie, and Van Dale's publications faithfully follow that standard,
such comments can be taken as being authoritative in a manner not
available to claims to authority regarding English.

Perhaps you are thinking of Afrikaans, where the 'ij' letter (composed
of two glyphs, but still a single letter) is frequently replaced with
'y' with or without a diaeresis?  Afrikaans is close to Dutch, but
differs in many respects, including orthography.

Giles
John Briggs - 09 Oct 2005 17:25 GMT
>>> It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
>>> Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> So far as I can tell, 'y' is only used with its consonantal value in
> Dutch (with the caveats regarding archaic spelling stated below).

OK - in that case, explain "ij".
Signature

John Briggs

Ivan - 09 Oct 2005 20:33 GMT
> >>> It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
> >>> Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> --
> John Briggs

It's a newspaper - the Independent Journal (Marin County, CA)

I thought this was a group about English.
Giles Todd - 10 Oct 2005 00:40 GMT
> I thought this was a group about English.

It is apparently also a newsgroup for English speakers to make
incorrect assertions about languages with which they are unfamiliar.

Why anyone would want to do this is another question entirely.  I
can't even pretend to offer an answer.

Giles
Giles Todd - 10 Oct 2005 00:26 GMT
> OK - in that case, explain "ij".

naam van de lettercombinatie bestaande uit de tekens i en j, gebruikt
om, in een aantal woorden, de tweeklank ei weer te geven:

 deze ij wordt vaak, ter onderscheiding van de ei, de lange ij
 genoemd

Graag gedaan en met vriendelijke groeten.

Giles
Ben Shimmin - 10 Oct 2005 00:37 GMT
Giles Todd <g@prullenbak.todd.nu>:
>> OK - in that case, explain "ij".
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Graag gedaan en met vriendelijke groeten.

I haven't the faintest idea what it (or any of this) means, but the word
`tweeklank' sounds marvellous.

b.

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Nick Wagg - 10 Oct 2005 09:54 GMT
> I haven't the faintest idea what it (or any of this) means, but the word
> `tweeklank' sounds marvellous.

In the typically prosaic fashion of the Dutch, "tweeklank" neither
sounds as pretty (or prissy) as an English-speaking person might
expect, nor means anything more exciting than two-sound.
David - 10 Oct 2005 16:35 GMT
> > I haven't the faintest idea what it (or any of this) means, but the
> > word `tweeklank' sounds marvellous.

> In the typically prosaic fashion of the Dutch, "tweeklank" neither
> sounds as pretty (or prissy) as an English-speaking person might
> expect, nor means anything more exciting than two-sound.

Sounds like most Dutch to me: twee for a while, then clank!

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4 Mock Curd Tart Recipes

Peter Duncanson - 11 Oct 2005 17:10 GMT
>> I haven't the faintest idea what it (or any of this) means, but the word
>> `tweeklank' sounds marvellous.
>
>In the typically prosaic fashion of the Dutch, "tweeklank" neither
>sounds as pretty (or prissy) as an English-speaking person might
>expect, nor means anything more exciting than two-sound.

When I first read that I split "tweeklank" into "tweek" and "lank";
which had me puzzled. Then I moved the first "k" and the pieces fell
into place with a satisfying clunk.
Signature

Peter Duncanson
UK (posting from u.c.l.e)

Giles Todd - 11 Oct 2005 03:42 GMT
No more wondrous than 'diphthong' (ooer, missus).

[IJ]

name of the letter combination consisting of the glyphs 'i' and 'j',
used in a number of words to represent the diphthong 'ei':

 often this 'ij', in order to distinguish it from 'ei', is called the
 'long ij'

Just to confuse matters, in archaic spellings the formulation 'eij' is
sometimes used in place of 'ei'.  A friend of mine has the surname
'Van Bergeijk', for instance.  Checking the CD version of the
telephone book, I find that 'Bergeyk' also exists.

Neither of these versions conform to modern standard Dutch
orthography, however.  Fortunately, while the Nederlandse Taalunie
might prescribe what is possible in modern standard Dutch, it does not
have the authority to require people to change the spelling of their
names.

Giles
Nick Wagg - 11 Oct 2005 09:25 GMT
> Neither of these versions conform to modern standard Dutch
> orthography, however.  Fortunately, while the Nederlandse Taalunie
> might prescribe what is possible in modern standard Dutch, it does not
> have the authority to require people to change the spelling of their
> names.

Neither does it have any control over what happened before
the NT was inaugurated.
Paul Burke - 11 Oct 2005 10:02 GMT
>>Neither of these versions conform to modern standard Dutch
>>orthography, however.  Fortunately, while the Nederlandse Taalunie
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Neither does it have any control over what happened before
> the NT was inaugurated.

http://rudhar.com/lingtics/nlij_en.htm
http://www.answers.com/topic/ij-letter

It seems that it started life just as a printer's convention for the
letter y, much like the s-zett over there ->. Is there any evidence of
it in manuscript BEFORE it was established in print?

Funny how you humans get yourselves into these tangles- the English sore
thumbs are, of course, the taboo on split infinitives, and the
possessive apostrophe, both utterly bogus and unnecessary grammatically.

Paul Burke
Molly Mockford - 11 Oct 2005 18:51 GMT
At 10:02:47 on Tue, 11 Oct 2005, Paul Burke <paul@scazon.com> wrote in
<3r1e66Fh8m7bU1@individual.net>:

>Funny how you humans get yourselves into these tangles-

Paul, is there something you should be telling us?
Signature

Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Giles Todd - 12 Oct 2005 02:31 GMT
> http://rudhar.com/lingtics/nlij_en.htm

Ruud's interest is in typography.  He's usually right as well, but I
note that the page to which you refer has nothing to say on the matter
of 'ij' being an umlauted 'y', which suggestion is what started my
contributions to this thread.

> http://www.answers.com/topic/ij-letter

No argument with that article either.  It also has nothing to say
about the point in contention.

> Funny how you humans get yourselves into these tangles- the English sore
> thumbs are, of course, the taboo on split infinitives, and the
> possessive apostrophe, both utterly bogus and unnecessary grammatically.

Funny how you non-humans keep introducing irrelevancies into the
discussion.

Giles
Giles Todd - 12 Oct 2005 02:16 GMT
> > Neither of these versions conform to modern standard Dutch
> > orthography, however.  Fortunately, while the Nederlandse Taalunie
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Neither does it have any control over what happened before
> the NT was inaugurated.

Nor does it have much control over how people use Dutch at any
particular time.  NT just prescribes how people are supposed to use
the language at arbitrarily chosen publication dates and thereafter,
until NT changes its mind.  I expect that German, French and Spanish
speakers find their official language definers similarly irritating.
But NT prescribes the official language as of its most recent
publication dates.

Here is a nice rant about Dutch spelling reform:
http://www.spellingsociety.org/journals/j19/duch.php

In the paragraph about the 'tussenletter problem', the writer gives
one example of a silly contradiction introduced by the 1996 spelling
rules ('bessesap' versus 'bessenwijn').  These dictated (with some
exceptions and rules guiding those exceptions) that compound words
using the schwa 'tussenletter' which was previously indicated by the
letter 'e' would henceforth represent that schwa by the letters 'en'.

Now, on the face of it, this reform makes some sense (so long as you
ignore beverages made from redcurrants), since terminal consonants in
Dutch are often unvoiced.  Terminal 'b' sounds like 'p', terminal 'd'
sounds like 't', etc.  An unvoiced 'n' is usually so quiet as to be
inaudible (try it if you don't believe me).  So, the reform still
conformed to common pronunciation.

This change involved changing the spelling of many words.  But, for
many nouns in Dutch, the '-en' suffix is the marker for a plural (cf
English 'oxen' and 'children').  Sometimes, this isn't a problem.
'Notekraker' (English 'nutcracker') became 'notenkraker', for
instance.  This change was uncontroversial since a nutcracker is an
implement for cracking nuts.  'Nutcracker' could be read as
'nutscracker' in the reformed orthography.  Nothing egregiously wrong
with that.  The meaning of the word is correctly conveyed with either
spelling.

Things became a little iffy with 'pannekoek' (English 'pancake')
becoming 'pannenkoek' since the new spelling could be read as meaning
a cake that is made in multiple pans.  Nevertheless, it was accepted,
albeit with grumbles from pedants.

Where newspaper editorials started to be written, though, was over the
change in the spelling of the word for "Queen's Day" (an important
public holiday celebrating the Queen's official birthday).
'Koninginnedag' became 'koninginnendag'.  This could be read to imply
that there was more than one Queen.  Much public indignation ensued,
together with (unfulfilled) threats that some newspapers would not
adopt the new orthography.  'Koninginnendag' remains the official
spelling, but things got quite heated for a while.

For what it's worth, I live about 400 metres away from Koninginneweg
(sic) and there is no Koninginnenweg in Amsterdam.  I very much doubt
that the name of the street will be changed to accommodate the
official orthography of the day.

I prefer the system of definition by commonly accepted usage, as used
when describing English.  At least the spellings don't keep changing
while I am not paying attention (not during my expected lifetime
anyway).

Giles
Nick Wagg - 12 Oct 2005 09:22 GMT
> I prefer the system of definition by commonly accepted usage, as used
> when describing English.  At least the spellings don't keep changing
> while I am not paying attention (not during my expected lifetime
> anyway).

And if the commonly accepted spelling does change in your lifetime,
you can just carry on using the old form. Alright?
Giles Todd - 12 Oct 2005 23:57 GMT
> And if the commonly accepted spelling does change in your lifetime,
> you can just carry on using the old form. Alright?

Absolutely!

Giles
Giles Todd - 18 Oct 2005 03:48 GMT
> And if the commonly accepted spelling does change in your lifetime,
> you can just carry on using the old form. Alright?

The bloody rules have just changed again.  The mushrooms
('paddenstoelen') which officially became 'paddestoelen' in 1996 will
once again officially be 'paddenstoelen' with effect from August 2006.
See:

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_article.asp?subchannel_id=19&story_id=24466&
name=Revised+Dutch+dictionary+sparks+debate
+

or

http://tinyurl.com/9mp63

if your newsreader barfs on wrapped lines.

I shall hang fire on buying new dictionaries until the fuss dies down
and, in the meantime, insist on buying only 'champignons' when I go to
the market.

Giles
Signature

Bastards.

John Briggs - 10 Oct 2005 01:19 GMT
>> OK - in that case, explain "ij".
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Graag gedaan en met vriendelijke groeten.

OK - now explain how that answers the question.
Signature

John Briggs

John Briggs - 10 Oct 2005 01:34 GMT
>>> It might help if you gathered information about ligatures.
>>> Incidentally the German umlauted letters originated from such
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> grounds in alphabetical lists): 'ij' is to be considered as 'i + j',
> 'y' is the Greek vowel [ypsilon]

If 'y' is a Greek vowel, why do you say it is only used consonantally?  What
about the name 'Kroymans'?
Signature

John Briggs

Giles Todd - 11 Oct 2005 03:25 GMT
> If 'y' is a Greek vowel, why do you say it is only used consonantally?

No, ypsilon is the Greek vowel.  'Griekse ypsilon' is the Dutch
letter.  Unsurprisingly, since Greek and Dutch are different
languages, the letters are used in different ways in each language.

In modern standard Dutch, 'y' is used only in borrowed words and has a
consonantal value.  That is why it is nonsense to talk about an
umlauted 'y'.  Umlaut involves a change in the sound of a vowel
produced by partial assimilation to an adjacent sound, usually that
found in a subsequent syllable (e.g. German 'Mann' [singular] ->
'Männer' [plural]).  In German, the two dots above the 'a' are used to
indicate that umlaut has occurred, but it is a mistake to assume
thereby that two dots above any letter in any other language indicates
the process of umlaut.  It doesn't work in English, for a start (cf
'coöperate', now more usually hyphenated).  Standard Dutch uses the
'two dots over a letter' to indicate syllable separation rather than
umlaut, although hyphenation is gradually taking over this role as in
English.

If you want to claim that 'ij' is an umlauted 'y' then you first have
to explain what is the original vowel sound and then you have to
explain what it changes into and what influences that change.

> What about the name 'Kroymans'?

See the bit I wrote about archaic spelling in names of places and
people, most likely deriving from the cursive 'ij'.  'Fortuyn' is
another example.  Neither is standard modern Dutch, though.

If you are really interested in the standard Dutch language then a
good place to start is here: http://taalunieversum.org/en/

Giles
John of Aix - 12 Oct 2005 19:05 GMT
In German, the two dots above the 'a' are used to
> indicate that umlaut has occurred, but it is a mistake to assume
> thereby that two dots above any letter in any other language indicates
> the process of umlaut.  It doesn't work in English, for a start (cf
> 'coöperate', now more usually hyphenated).  Standard Dutch uses the
> 'two dots over a letter' to indicate syllable separation

As does French. 'Naïve' for example. which would otherwise be pronounced
'nave'.
Tony Mountifield - 12 Oct 2005 16:59 GMT
> In Dutch handwriting, 'ij' often closely resembles 'y' with a
> diaeresis simply because that is an easy way to write it in cursive
> script, but it is rarely, if ever, so in print (I have seen non-dotted
> 'y' in archaic formations of Dutch words, such as names of places and
> people, but that is now a non-standard substitution for 'ij').

I remember some years ago noting with interest in a Dutch or Flemish
telephone directory that ij and y were considered identical in the
alphabetical ordering of names. So you had "Van Dijck" and "Van Dyck"
all mixed in together.

Cheers
Tony
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Tony Mountifield
Work: tony@softins.co.uk - http://www.softins.co.uk
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John Briggs - 12 Oct 2005 17:50 GMT
>> In Dutch handwriting, 'ij' often closely resembles 'y' with a
>> diaeresis simply because that is an easy way to write it in cursive
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> alphabetical ordering of names. So you had "Van Dijck" and "Van Dyck"
> all mixed in together.

Outrageous! Anyone would think they were the same...
Signature

John Briggs

Giles Todd - 13 Oct 2005 00:10 GMT
> I remember some years ago noting with interest in a Dutch or Flemish
> telephone directory that ij and y were considered identical in the
> alphabetical ordering of names. So you had "Van Dijck" and "Van Dyck"
> all mixed in together.

That bit was covered a few days ago in Message-ID:
<mekgk1t7vrci0f57af0pj9c9ud97cr2ft1@4ax.com>

It happens.  The Nederlandse Taalunie says that it shouldn't, but it
does, because it would be an enormous pain in the arse if it didn't.
This is often a problem when one tries to prescribe a natural
language.

For what it's worth, the names 'Deick', 'Dijk' and 'Deik' also occur
in the Dutch phone book.  Of the five variants, only the forms 'Dijk'
and 'Deik' are blessed by the current (1996) spelling rules.

Giles
Giles Todd - 13 Oct 2005 01:17 GMT
> For what it's worth, the names 'Deick', 'Dijk' and 'Deik' also occur
> in the Dutch phone book.  Of the five variants, only the forms 'Dijk'
> and 'Deik' are blessed by the current (1996) spelling rules.

Apologies.  There are at least six variants.  Earlier, I forgot to
check for 'Dyk', which also exists in the phone book.  Still only two
'official' spellings, though.

Giles
John of Aix - 08 Oct 2005 20:34 GMT
>> Hi,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> often written like "fs" (without the crossbar on the "f" , of
> course).

I once read a very clever piece in which every 's' sound had been turned
into f and which was hilarious to read. This was long before word
processors made such a thing relatively easy. In fact nowadays with a
search and replace you can turn any old EULA into something from the
18th century. An automatic translation to and back from any old language
beforehand adds to the fun.
Molly Mockford - 08 Oct 2005 23:24 GMT
At 21:34:48 on Sat, 8 Oct 2005, John of Aix <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr>
wrote in <43484533$0$17214$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>:

>I once read a very clever piece in which every 's' sound had been turned
>into f and which was hilarious to read.

There was an episode of the excellent "The Vicar of Dibley" where Alice,
the intellectually-challenged girl-verger, had to read from an antique
bible whose Ss looked like Fs, and Geraldine interrupted her just before
she got to the word "succour".
Signature

Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

John of Aix - 09 Oct 2005 08:32 GMT
> At 21:34:48 on Sat, 8 Oct 2005, John of Aix <j.murphy@libertysurf.fr>
> wrote in <43484533$0$17214$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> antique bible whose Ss looked like Fs, and Geraldine interrupted her
> just before she got to the word "succour".

;-)
 
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