>>> Type 1 idioms ... are simply the [English]-ification
>>> [via transliteration] of foreign phrases. ...
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> more precisely or accurately than the etymology of words and
> phrases that are not idioms.
>> One should not insist that the etymology of an idiom be proven
>> more precisely or accurately than the etymology of words and
>> phrases that are not idioms.
> I try to be precise or accurate in my use of words: I wrote "might
> have happened". This is what you have not demonstrated.
OK. Let's look at an example of a Latin phrase that might have become
an English idiom, but we know that it did not: "e pluribus unum" which
means "out of many, one".
If it had become an idiom it might have been spelled "a flower bush you
name" but it would have retained its original meaning. It would also
have acquired a folk-etymology, perhaps "a flower-bush could have many
names, but we typically give it only one."
> I think we can safely say that both meanings [the Latin word for rooster
> and the former name for France] were in Lecoq's mind - there is no way
> of determining which was uppermost.
The OED finally accepted Lecoq's protestations (after his death) and
revised its etymology for the element Gallium.
> Wasn't the cockerel used as a symbol by the Third Republic?
I had to Google this one. The answer is "almost". See:
http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/article.php3?id_article=362
http://www.languedoc-france.info/06141212_cockerel.htm
> I don't believe your "bearings" story :-)
I did a Google search for ["getting your bearings" + email] and found
this 58-page website:
http://www.sciencenorth.on.ca/schools/teacherresources/edu_guides/IMAX/bears.pdf
>> ... If you look at the two stars forming the beginning of the "bowl" and follow along the line they make, you will see the North Star, Polaris. The star forms part of the tail of the Lesser Bear, and was always used by sailors as a guide to finding north. In fact, the phrase, "getting your bearings" comes from the practice of using the Great Bear to find the North Star. ... <<
>> ... idioms tend to have more syllables [than ordinary words].
> I have a feeling that this bizarre statement may come back to haunt you :-)
Why?
>> ... To "spill" is to tell, as in Yiddish spiel,
>> from Hebrew samekh-peh-resh SaPeR = to tell.
> I very much doubt that "spiel" comes from Hebrew.
> Do remember what Yiddish actually is.
The Germanic Spiel means "a play", as in a Purim Spiel. This meaning is
also found in Yiddish. But the "spiel" in "spill the beans" means to
tell/relate/recount as in the long spiel you might get from a used-car
salesman. This spiel is semantically related to Hebrew samekh-peh-resh
= to tell. Play it again, Sam.
> Again, you have to demonstrate that the expressions actually originated in a
> culture with a knowledge of Hebrew or Aramaic (or even Yiddish).
Jews are infamous for Wandering. As for Aramaic, any culture that
engaged in world trade from 800 BC to 300 BC had significant contacts
with Aramaic
>> ... the Old Testament was written mostly in Hebrew ...
> "Mostly in Hebrew"? You have presumably heard about the book that described
> George Washington as "one of the first presidents of the United States"?
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_oldt.htm
>> Hebrew Scriptures: The text was originally written in Hebrew, except for a few verses which were composed in Aramaic (Ezra 4:8 to 6:18; Ezra 7:12-26; Jeremiah 10:11; Daniel 2:4b to 7:28). ... The books of the Apocrypha appear to have been originally written in Hebrew and Aramaic. ... <<
> Biblical translators with a knowledge of Hebrew have always been a small elite.
> One would have to demonstrate words escaping from them into the English
> language. But give me some actual Hebrew examples.
English expressions derived from Hebrew did not come directly from the
very few people engaged in translation. They came mostly from
translated Bibles and the many clerics who quoted them. For a long list
of English translations of the bible (with dates), see
http://www.bible-researcher.com/versions.html
> But give me some actual Hebrew examples.
"Count sheep (to go to sleep)" probably originated in a monastery or
university "Take hair of the dog that bit you" as a hangover remedy is
probably another. Here the Latin phrase is Saccharomyces cervisiae, a
yeast that converts sugar to alcohol. The cure is spent Brewer's yeast
(Marmite or Vegamite in your supermarket). The Hebrew pun is Sa3aR
MiNSHaKH KeLeV = hair bite dog. Compare the Greek 3-headed dog
CeRBerus. See:
http://www.musicalenglishlessons.org/contributors/izzycohen.htm
>> Aramaic has had a large influence on other languages because it was a
>> lingua franca for about 600 years.
> Which 600 years? Which languages?
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/language.html
>> [Aramaic] became the language of Semitic peoples throughout the ancient Near East from before 1000 BC ... By the 8th century B.C. it was the major language from Egypt to Asia Minor to Pakistan. It was the language of the great Semitic empires of Assyria, Syria, Chaldean, and Babylon and was used throughout Achaemenid Persia. ...
Aramaic was the dominate language throughout the Middle East and
enjoyed general use until the spread of Greek after Alexander's
conquest of the Achaemenid empire in 331 B.C. ... Aramaic's use
remained among the Semitic peoples until it was superseded by Arabic
with the Arab conquest in the 7th Century AD. <<
>> To see ... when and where other languages have been affected by Semitic, go to:
>> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/ABOUT-WORDS/2002-08/1029997811
> That just demonstrates that other people think you are a crank.
Would you include yourself in that group of "other people" :-?
>> To see how Western Semitic (Phoenician) affected the names of
>> countries throughout Asia minor and north Africa, go to:
> I don't think you'll get many takers for your "Body [Part] Maps".
> John Briggs
The BPMaps discussion group currently has about 140 members. It is a
very quiet group that currently averages about 1 message per month. You
and all of the readers are cordially invited to join. When you do, be
sure to examine the databases.
ciao,
Israel "izzy" Cohen
BPMaps moderator
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BPMaps/
Molly Mockford - 21 Nov 2005 18:25 GMT
At 09:17:22 on Mon, 21 Nov 2005, izzy <cohen.izzy@gmail.com> wrote in
<1132593442.319866.177700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
>OK. Let's look at an example of a Latin phrase that might have become
>an English idiom, but we know that it did not: "e pluribus unum" which
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>have acquired a folk-etymology, perhaps "a flower-bush could have many
>names, but we typically give it only one."
You would be on firmer ground if you were to cite pub names like "The
Elephant and Castle" and "The Case is Altered", both of which came from
British soldiers in the Peninsular War trying to make sense of the names
of the Spanish inns they enjoyed.

Signature
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
John Briggs - 21 Nov 2005 21:24 GMT
> At 09:17:22 on Mon, 21 Nov 2005, izzy <cohen.izzy@gmail.com> wrote in
> <1132593442.319866.177700@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> from British soldiers in the Peninsular War trying to make sense of
> the names of the Spanish inns they enjoyed.
You are a couple of hundred years out with those :-)

Signature
John Briggs
Molly Mockford - 21 Nov 2005 21:57 GMT
At 21:24:03 on Mon, 21 Nov 2005, John Briggs <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com>
wrote in <TVqgf.2623$85.1632@newsfe6-win.ntli.net>:
>> You would be on firmer ground if you were to cite pub names like "The
>> Elephant and Castle" and "The Case is Altered", both of which came
>> from British soldiers in the Peninsular War trying to make sense of
>> the names of the Spanish inns they enjoyed.
>
>You are a couple of hundred years out with those :-)
No doubt - history was never my strong point :-) Which war was it,
then?

Signature
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)
John Briggs - 21 Nov 2005 23:24 GMT
> At 21:24:03 on Mon, 21 Nov 2005, John Briggs
> <john.briggs4@ntlworld.com> wrote in
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> No doubt - history was never my strong point :-) Which war was it,
> then?
Well, no, you are completely wrong :-)
"The Case is Altered" is the title of a play by Ben Jonson - it was already
a proverbial expression. There is a reference to " 'The Elephant' in the
South Suburbs" in "Twelfth Night". This is NOT a reference to the present
Elephant and Castle, but it does show that such inn names were already in
use.

Signature
John Briggs
John Briggs - 21 Nov 2005 21:20 GMT
>>> One should not insist that the etymology of an idiom be proven
>>> more precisely or accurately than the etymology of words and
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> also have acquired a folk-etymology, perhaps "a flower-bush could
> have many names, but we typically give it only one."
You know, this would have been a damned sight more convincing if you had
used a real example rather than a fictitious one.
>> I think we can safely say that both meanings [the Latin word for rooster
>> and the former name for France] were in Lecoq's mind - there is no way of
>> determining which was uppermost.
>
> The OED finally accepted Lecoq's protestations (after his death) and
> revised its etymology for the element Gallium.
That doesn't mean they were right. Remind me, which one of us is it that
doesn't accept dictionary etymologies?
>> Wasn't the cockerel used as a symbol by the Third Republic?
>
> I had to Google this one. The answer is "almost". See:
> http://www.ambafrance-uk.org/article.php3?id_article=362
> http://www.languedoc-france.info/06141212_cockerel.htm
"it virtually became an official symbol of the Third Republic". Note the
use on stamps and coins. It makes an unfortunate reference to "word war I",
with which I suspect you might be involved :-)
>> I don't believe your "bearings" story :-)
>
> I did a Google search for ["getting your bearings" + email] and found
> this 58-page website:
> http://www.sciencenorth.on.ca/schools/teacherresources/edu_guides/IMAX/bears.pdf
Yes, it's all about bears! Do you think it is an unbiased source?
>>> ... If you look at the two stars forming the beginning of the
>>> "bowl" and follow along the line they make, you will see the North
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Why?
Let's wait and see :-)
>>> ... To "spill" is to tell, as in Yiddish spiel,
>>> from Hebrew samekh-peh-resh SaPeR = to tell.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> used-car salesman. This spiel is semantically related to Hebrew
> samekh-peh-resh = to tell. Play it again, Sam.
Rather than just stating "spiel is semantically related to Hebrew", how
about showing us some evidence?
>> Again, you have to demonstrate that the expressions actually
>> originated in a culture with a knowledge of Hebrew or Aramaic (or
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> list of English translations of the bible (with dates), see
> http://www.bible-researcher.com/versions.html
An English expression which is a literal translation from the Hebrew is not
an "expression derived from Hebrew". In any case, "skin of the teeth"
(which was where we came in) is either a mistranslation or (more likely) a
corruption in the Hebrew text (blame the Masoretes).
>> But give me some actual Hebrew examples.
>
> "Count sheep (to go to sleep)" probably originated in a monastery or
> university "Take hair of the dog that bit you" as a hangover remedy is
> probably another.
Probably? Can't you be a bit more precise? What sort of university or
monastery?
> Here the Latin phrase is Saccharomyces cervisiae, a
> yeast that converts sugar to alcohol. The cure is spent Brewer's yeast
> (Marmite or Vegamite in your supermarket). The Hebrew pun is Sa3aR
> MiNSHaKH KeLeV = hair bite dog. Compare the Greek 3-headed dog
> CeRBerus. See:
> http://www.musicalenglishlessons.org/contributors/izzycohen.htm
At which date is any of this supposed to have happened? Bearing in mind the
title of this thread, does peddling this nonsense come from a lifetime of
dealing with people less clever than you?
>>> Aramaic has had a large influence on other languages because it was
>>> a lingua franca for about 600 years.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Would you include yourself in that group of "other people" :-?
Just play the odds :-)
>>> To see how Western Semitic (Phoenician) affected the names of
>>> countries throughout Asia minor and north Africa, go to:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> You and all of the readers are cordially invited to join. When you
> do, be sure to examine the databases.
Actually, there's more to the "Body Part Maps" than your other ideas, but as
usual you are pushing it too far.

Signature
John Briggs
izzy - 22 Nov 2005 07:46 GMT
I think this thread is getting to the point of diminishing returns, but
I'll try to answer a few of the questions that were posed:
>> Let's look at an example of a Latin phrase that might have become
>> an English idiom, but we know that it did not: "e pluribus unum" which
>> means "out of many, one". ...
> You know, this would have been a damned sight more convincing if you had
> used a real example rather than a fictitious one.
OK. I don't know if you consider "Welsh rabbit" to be an idiom, but its
meaning certainly has nothing to do with the Welsh or rabbits. I think
it is merely a list of its ingredients in Arabic. I'll show the Hebrew
equivalents, using X for the letter het with a W-sound (parallel to
Greek digamma, preLatin V, and Germanic Wynn):
milk/cheese ale toast
XaLav SHakhaR PaT (lexem)
WeLSH RaBBiT
Please don't ask me exactly where/when this occurred. I also don't know
where the wheel was invented or who invented it. But Welsh rabbit may
be via returning crusaders or Black Irish.
> Remind me, which one of us is it that doesn't accept dictionary etymologies?
Most dictionary etymologies are correct. More than a few are not.
Ironically, the three most likely to be known by a non-linguist are
false:
1 - Muscle is not from Latin musculus, a small mouse. It is related to
weight (Semitic MiSHKal), mass, and massage. If you have a lot of
muscle, you can lift/pull a lot of weight. If you lift weights, you
will develop your muscles. A small mouse has small muscles.
By the way, this mistake was probably influenced by the fact that Greek
pontiki means both mouse and muscle. But the mouse meaning of pontiki
was shortened from the phrase "mus pontikus", mouse from the Pontus
region of Anatolia. And Pontus (now in Turkey) was the location of the
biceps muscle on an anthropomorphic map of Asia minor.
2 - Cabal is not from Hebrew Kabbalah (esoteric learning, literally,
the received tradition). It is related to Hebrew het-bet-lamed XaBaL
(to plot, scheme).
3 - Sabotage has nothing to do with an old French sabot = shoe. Its
original meaning was to go on strike, that is, to treat a work-day as
if it were the Sabbath.
> Actually, there's more to the "Body Part Maps" than your other ideas, but as
> usual you are pushing it too far.
So, join the BPMaps group and push it back.
ciao,
Israel "izzy" Cohen
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BPMaps/
Paul Burke - 22 Nov 2005 08:21 GMT
> "e pluribus unum" ...might have been spelled "a flower bush you
> name" but it would have retained its original meaning.
Do you SPEAK English?
This all reminds me of the Victorian etymologist who derived Lambeth
from the Tibetan Lama, a priest, and the Hebrew Beth, a house. The
bishop's palace is, of course, at Lambeth.
Paul Burke
izzy - 22 Nov 2005 10:57 GMT
>> [ If ] "e pluribus unum" [had become an English idiom, it] ...might have been
>> spelled "a flower bush you name" but it would have retained its original meaning.
> Do you SPEAK English?
Yes. It is my native language.
> This all reminds me of the Victorian etymologist who derived Lambeth
> from the Tibetan Lama, a priest, and the Hebrew Beth, a house. The
> bishop's palace is, of course, at Lambeth.
> Paul Burke
Would you derive Vatican from Hebrew Va3aD = committee + KohaNim =
priests ? ... rather than from Mt. Vatican? If not, from whence Mt.
Vatican?
Israel "izzy" Cohen (a kohen)
Paul Burke - 22 Nov 2005 13:22 GMT
> Would you derive Vatican from Hebrew Va3aD = committee + KohaNim =
> priests ? ... rather than from Mt. Vatican? If not, from whence Mt.
> Vatican?
Rather good at prediction, those old Romans, calling a hill and a swamp
the Committee of Priests, knowing it would become, a thousand years
later, the centre of a religion that didn't yet exist.
Perhaps "Vatican" is Etruscan for "Sorry, I don't speak Hebrew".
Paul Burke
Nick Wagg - 22 Nov 2005 16:33 GMT
> > Would you derive Vatican from Hebrew Va3aD = committee + KohaNim =
> > priests ? ... rather than from Mt. Vatican? If not, from whence Mt.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Perhaps "Vatican" is Etruscan for "Sorry, I don't speak Hebrew".
Vat I can vouch for.
mUs1Ka - 22 Nov 2005 17:03 GMT
>> Would you derive Vatican from Hebrew Va3aD = committee + KohaNim =
>> priests ? ... rather than from Mt. Vatican? If not, from whence Mt.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Perhaps "Vatican" is Etruscan for "Sorry, I don't speak Hebrew".
Oy veh! Poor Izzy. He does vatican.

Signature
Ray.
UK.
izzy - 23 Nov 2005 07:15 GMT
It is important to be able to laugh at oneself. And I did have a few
risible moments reading the comments following my Vatican from Va3aD
KohaNim (committee of priests) derivation. I think my favorite is from
Ray: "Oy veh! Poor Izzy. He does vatican."
However, it seems that the term Vatican is indeed derived from a
priestly group, but not the Roman Catholic one. I probably made a
mistake about the sex of the group (cf. Gallae). A Google search for <
Vatican hill goddess > turns up about 215,000 hits. Here are a few
excerpts:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/easter1.htm
Most notable was the Cybele cult centered on Vatican hill
http://www.aztriad.com/lavinia.html
..Cybele & Attis, served by Gallae "male'' priestesses, was the state
religion. Temples raised to the Goddess were peppered all over the
Empire, none more prominent than the one on the Vatican hill [the
Phrygianum], where St. Peter's Basilica would be erected. ...
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GnosticThought/message/347
The Mithras cult was taken over by the Roman Christians, even Vatican
Hill was a sacred temple site of the Mithras worshipers.
http://www.bartleby.com/196/81.html
... At Rome the new birth and the remission of sins by the shedding of
bull's blood appear to have been carried out above all at the
sanctuary of the Phrygian goddess on the Vatican Hill, at or near the
spot where the great basilica of St. Peter's now stands;...
The prophetic powers of Cybele as an oracle are described at
http://www.moonspeaker.ca/Delphi/delphi.html
Is there any connection between Cybele and its metathesis, celibate
(priests)?
Judaism also has a tradition of animal sacrifice for the purification
of sins: the red heifer.
http://www.templeinstitute.org/red_heifer/red_heifer_contents.htm
And the Jewish high priest was also an oracle when using the Urim and
Thummim...
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=52&letter=U
... which may have been a light (reflected from the gemstones) to sound
(of the letters they represented) device. And, no, I don't derive
etymologies that way. :-)
Best regards,
Israel "izzy" Cohen
John Briggs - 23 Nov 2005 10:12 GMT
> It is important to be able to laugh at oneself. And I did have a few
> risible moments reading the comments following my Vatican from Va3aD
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Empire, none more prominent than the one on the Vatican hill [the
> Phrygianum], where St. Peter's Basilica would be erected. ...
The term "Gallae" does not exist - it is only used by American transsexuals.
There is no evidence for the presence of Galli in Rome.
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GnosticThought/message/347
> The Mithras cult was taken over by the Roman Christians, even Vatican
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Is there any connection between Cybele and its metathesis, celibate
> (priests)?
Since you ask, no. There is also probably no connection with Indian
hijras - but feel free to suggest one :-)

Signature
John Briggs
John Briggs - 22 Nov 2005 17:20 GMT
>> Would you derive Vatican from Hebrew Va3aD = committee + KohaNim =
>> priests ? ... rather than from Mt. Vatican? If not, from whence Mt.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Perhaps "Vatican" is Etruscan for "Sorry, I don't speak Hebrew".
Perhaps we should invoke the nuclear option? And speak the name "Peter T.
Daniels" out loud three times?

Signature
John Briggs
Nick Wagg - 22 Nov 2005 18:06 GMT
> >> Would you derive Vatican from Hebrew Va3aD = committee + KohaNim =
> >> priests ? ... rather than from Mt. Vatican? If not, from whence Mt.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Perhaps we should invoke the nuclear option? And speak the name "Peter T.
> Daniels" out loud three times?
Is that a variant of Godwin's Law?
John Briggs - 22 Nov 2005 21:35 GMT
>>>> Would you derive Vatican from Hebrew Va3aD = committee + KohaNim =
>>>> priests ? ... rather than from Mt. Vatican? If not, from whence Mt.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Is that a variant of Godwin's Law?
In a way - but the effect is the opposite :-)

Signature
John Briggs